Erik Buell Interview Exclusive [motorcycle-usa.com]

[Schneegz]

Remember how Mr. Buell once said that he didn't want a water cooled engine, an how air cooled engines were perfect for sport bikes?  And remember how some Buell fans actually bought that crap and claimed (some continue to claim) that Harley never held Buell back from producing a water cooled engine?  Here's Erik Buell on that subject.

I built the prototype of the 1125 in 1988, so it took me 20 years to get it to market. And then we had another run at it, we were actually supposed to have a water-cooled bike out by 1998, but that became the motor, Harley Davidson decided to take the motor and changed it into a cruiser motor and that became the V-Rod. But it actually started out as our engine. We were trying to get a water-cooled bike. It was actually scheduled to launch, it was ready to launch in Europe in ’98.

“We’d just been in business doing the air-cooled for a couple years, and I felt we needed to go water-cooled as soon as possible, and so did the person who was the head of marketing at the time. But we got going, but once we were given the scale. Harley Davidson looked at it and said: ‘well, when you do launch it, it will only be at these numbers and we’re doing hundreds of thousands of motorcycles. If we did a water-cooled we’d sell a lot more of those, so we need to share the motor. In fact, we kind of need to drive the motor. And then when we’re done with it, you can use it.’ And it became a great cruiser motor, but it was just too big and too heavy, it only had a five-speed transmission – a lot of things were not appropriate to bring it out in the marketplace as a true sportbike engine.

“That truly was what I was trying to do with Buell from the beginning, is truly make it a sportbike company. We did great things with the air-cooled engines. But it was very much a niche, and like I said, I knew it.”

Yeah, I know.  This will never convince the "air cooled engines are perfect" believers, but it's fun to point out anyway.

Motorcycle USA has a fairly long post-BMC-mortem interview with Erik Buell on their site.

[JustCallMeChris]

The V-Rod engine, regardless of origination, was one that Erik wanted to use in his bikes early on, but Harley - mostly due to aesthetics - added heft and size to the external casing and some of the addons *they* deemed necessary (cylinder covers, etc) and the engine ended up being too physically large (mostly width, IIRC) and heavy for what Erik had in mind. Harley decided that since the future V-Rod engine and the engine Buell had on the bench had become two completely different lumps and didn't want to support two distinct engines, they shit-canned the one he had on the bench and built the V-Rod[1].  

He said that in an interview a couple of years ago... 2004, maybe? or 2007? I have a link somewhere, I'll dig it up.

I'm not sure who thinks the air-cooled engine is "the perfect sport bike engine". I'm of the opinion that for the street, a twin makes a whole lot more sense than an I4, but the air-cooled engine's big "plus" is simplicity and fewer components - not unilaterally "better". That's a silly notion[2].










[1] - some have said that was the beginning of the end of the Buell-Harley partnership.

[2] - Dear Willie G....  

[Kootenanny]

I just read that over at MCUSA, and came over here to post a link--only to find that it's already been posted.  Fine, but...I could do without the negativity.

I myself own an air-cooled Firebolt, and while I don't think it's "perfect," I bought it because I much preferred it to the I4 competition.  As LMDB sez, it makes a lot of sense for a streetbike.  It is simple, flexible, and produces a lot of torque in the rpm range many of us ride at.  I don't race on the street, but I do admit to riding quickly on occasion, and I'm seldom the last guy at the destination.  I've had my 'Bolt for five years now, and I can't see ever letting it go.

I think that H-D shows a lack of vision by axing Buell, just as he was getting into his stride (and Brad, don't even bother).

[Spiffious]

I don't think the issue is that air-cooled twins don't a good buell make,  But rather that HD held back Buell all along... Then killed buell before the 1125 could be refined.

[JustCallMeChris]

I myself own an air-cooled Firebolt, and while I don't think it's "perfect," I bought it because I much preferred it to the I4 competition.  As LMDB sez, it makes a lot of sense for a streetbike.  It is simple, flexible, and produces a lot of torque in the rpm range many of us ride at.  I don't race on the street, but I do admit to riding quickly on occasion, and I'm seldom the last guy at the destination.  I've had my 'Bolt for five years now, and I can't see ever letting it go.

Koot, that's exactly how I feel about my Sportster and how I expect I'll feel about my upcoming Ulie.  

Twins deliver power in a way that I feel is superior to I4s for real-world / street riding. Now, to keep paintie-bunching to a minimum... I want to be clear about what I just stated: I believe that how a twin delivers power is superior to most I4 engines. I didn't say "more" and I didn't say the engines are universally "better" (Larry, just calm down). I said I like how they deliver power.

Of the current offerings in the market place, almost nothing is simpler and cheaper to own and maintain than the Harley air-cooled twins - no valve adjustments, oil changes are 2 minute ordeals, primary chain takes about 30 seconds to inspect and another 3 to adjust if necessary, etc.

They offer a visceral, old-school feel with modern quality and features. Truly a best of both worlds engine. Add that engine to a kickass, top notch chassis as found in the Buells... it's a good combination. Again, please note, folks, I didn't say "better" than any others. Buell enhanced his offerings with the 1125 engine which delivers more power over a broader range, but at the expense of certain complexity and maintenance. For one, I'm glad it wasn't a sweeping, complete, across-the-board replacement of the Thunderstorm engines.

$.02

[desert_rider]

Interesting article, thanks for the link.

From the article:

“Like I said, I still wish it could’ve worked. I think if we’d have lasted another five years, we would’ve turned the thing around. We had just won our first championship, we would’ve run American Superbike this year, and World Superbike in 2011."

I would have so loved to see that.  

[Kootenanny]

I don't think the issue is that air-cooled twins don't a good buell make,  But rather that HD held back Buell all along... Then killed buell before the 1125 could be refined.

I agree that H-D killed Buell before the 1125 bikes got anywhere near where they could have been.  Maybe they wouldn't have worked as well as planned, but I'm sure Buell would have gotten them there somehow.

On the other point, though...I can't agree that H-D "held back Buell all along..."  Or if they did, it wasn't from any kind of animosity or control issue.  Rather, Buell was purchased by a much larger company, and held pretty much at arms length.  The purchase gave Buell the capital needed to develop the XB bikes, sales of which funded the 1125 engine project.  It wasn't like H-D was saying "Thou must only ever use air-cooled engines," but rather that H-D wasn't going to simply shovel money at Buell--they had to produce a a profit, and they had to fund their own projects from that.  Which they were doing when H-D corporate, under a brand-new CEO, decided to shut them down.

I notice that EB is very careful not to badmouth H-D or the CEO, I'm sure for legal reasons.  But it seems likely that shutting down BMC was part of a strategy by the new CEO to "take command" of H-D, to show everyone who's boss.  I think it was a bad move, but...we'll see.

[st ryder]

I don't think the issue is that air-cooled twins don't a good buell make,  But rather that HD held back Buell all along... Then killed buell before the 1125 could be refined.

I think the op's issue is Erik Buell's freely made statements about not wanting a liquid cooled bike when all he had to sell were air cooled. I think the above excerpt at a minimum infers if, not outruight shows, that he says one thing and then says quite another, so who knows what he'll say next?   It's about cred, and character.

If he would only say something along the lines of, "Yes, I'm on record for saying I'd never want a lc engine, but looking back, I see now that I may have been too enthusiastic about our engine since we were so proud of how much power we could get out of it. But now, after a number of years of making both ac and lc bikes, I've changed my mind, and feel that though there will always be a place for sporting ac twins, one must have lc to take the next performance steps, as we want to build sport bikes that compete at the highest levels."

I'd have a higher opinion of the guy if he did.    

[wbrisett]

I just read that over at MCUSA, and came over here to post a link--only to find that it's already been posted.  Fine, but...I could do without the negativity.

HD gets no sympathy, empathy, or even the time of day from most Buell owners. And you know what, they don't deserve it. Rarely did they do much to help Buell (other than the initial money to help keep Erik and Co in business to begin with). The partnership was doomed from the start and much of it I lay a the feet of HD and their marketing department. They simply didn't know what to do with a sport bike company. Even now, they haven't been very helpful to Buell owners. They've killed off anything that was considered an accessory, and honestly for some things there aren't other companies making them, so trying to find certain items on Buell bikes is now a major pain in the butt. Take the High Bars for the 1125CR, they just sold a boatload of them during their pricing blowout. Yet, they dropped the high bar kit because that was an accessory and not a warranty part. People have complained that they can't order certain parts already because HD has decided that those items don't fail under warranty, so it's not something they have to keep in stock.  HD wanted us gone, fine they got what they wanted. I for one certainly aren't going to smile and wave as I'm getting the shaft. HD will never see another dime from me except for the odd part that I can't get elsewhere. HD can take their lumps along with the rest of the industry as far as I'm concerned. Few of the manufacturers actually care about the buying public. HD simply has been doing it to Buell owners for a much longer time, and there is still some pain there, so you're going to see negativity about them from Buell owners. Get over it, cause it's going to happen.

Wayne

[Kootenanny]

...I for one certainly aren't going to smile and wave as I'm getting the shaft. HD will never see another dime from me except for the odd part that I can't get elsewhere. HD can take their lumps along with the rest of the industry as far as I'm concerned. Few of the manufacturers actually care about the buying public. HD simply has been doing it to Buell owners for a much longer time, and there is still some pain there, so you're going to see negativity about them from Buell owners. Get over it, cause it's going to happen.

Wayne

I you'd read my post, you'd see that my comment had to do with negativity about the air-cooled Buells, which I think are great bikes.  I am not smiling and waving at H-D...I believe they've made a major blunder, and I have stated elsewhere exactly the same as you--that I will never give them another dime if I can help it.

[Brad1445]

I think that H-D shows a lack of vision by axing Buell, just as he was getting into his stride .

Harley had no choice!  

The market had spoken

It was humane to put Buell out of its misery.

The beast had to die!

[Baz]

I don't think the issue is that air-cooled twins don't a good buell make,  But rather that HD held back Buell all along... Then killed buell before the 1125 could be refined.

I don't know how much influence Buell would have had over the 1125 development. It was designed, manufactured & sold to Buell by Rotax.  

Does HD have any influence on S&S engine building?

[Brad1445]

HD gets no sympathy, empathy, or even the time of day from most Buell owners. And you know what, they don't deserve it. Rarely did they do much to help Buell (other than the initial money to help keep Erik and Co in business to begin with). The partnership was doomed from the start and much of it I lay a the feet of HD and their marketing department. They simply didn't know what to do with a sport bike company. Even now, they haven't been very helpful to Buell owners. They've killed off anything that was considered an accessory, and honestly for some things there aren't other companies making them, so trying to find certain items on Buell bikes is now a major pain in the butt. Take the High Bars for the 1125CR, they just sold a boatload of them during their pricing blowout. Yet, they dropped the high bar kit because that was an accessory and not a warranty part. People have complained that they can't order certain parts already because HD has decided that those items don't fail under warranty, so it's not something they have to keep in stock.  HD wanted us gone, fine they got what they wanted. I for one certainly aren't going to smile and wave as I'm getting the shaft. HD will never see another dime from me except for the odd part that I can't get elsewhere. HD can take their lumps along with the rest of the industry as far as I'm concerned. Few of the manufacturers actually care about the buying public. HD simply has been doing it to Buell owners for a much longer time, and there is still some pain there, so you're going to see negativity about them from Buell owners. Get over it, cause it's going to happen.

Wayne

I seriously don't see how Harley gets all the blame.

- did they design the bikes looks  that the press ridicules?
- did they design the EFI drivability issues  that the press ridicules?
- did they design the clutch leaks the  that press ridicules?
- did they design the turn signal failures  that the press ridicules?
- did they design the  Speedometer head failures  that  the press ridicules?
- did they design the  hard cold starting  that the press ridicules?
- did they design the  parasitic electrical drain that the press ridicules?

I could go on but my typing sucks.  See I admit my mistakes.  If Buell did in 2008 and made the 09 better, or the 2010 better they would have sold.

[wbrisett]

I you'd read my post, you'd see that my comment had to do with negativity about the air-cooled Buells, which I think are great bikes.  I am not smiling and waving at H-D...I believe they've made a major blunder, and I have stated elsewhere exactly the same as you--that I will never give them another dime if I can help it.

Actually, I read it, but it wasn't until you reframed the conversation, that I understood what you meant!

Sorry, Brad I'm going to disagree with you. We'll leave it at that.

Wayne

[cooter]

I seriously don't see.

Fixed that for ya..  

[UFO]

Why couldn't someone have notified me of this?    Good front page news item.

[bomber]

I don't know how much influence Buell would have had over the 1125 development. It was designed, manufactured & sold to Buell by Rotax.  

Does HD have any influence on S&S engine building?

HD has no input on S&S mills, it's true.

But HD doesn't buy anything from S&S.

On the other hand, Buell bought the 1125 engines from Rotax -- this engine was not sitting on a shelf, waiting for customers -- Buell had a fair amount of input as to the engine's design and specs.

[JustCallMeChris]

I don't know how much influence Buell would have had over the 1125 development. It was designed, manufactured & sold to Buell by Rotax.  

Does HD have any influence on S&S engine building?

The Rotax engine was built to Erik's specs. His design/engineering team had lots of input.

[tankhead]

They offer a visceral, old-school feel with modern quality and features. Truly a best of both worlds engine. Add that engine to a kickass, top notch chassis as found in the Buells... it's a good combination. Again, please note, folks, I didn't say "better" than any others. Buell enhanced his offerings with the 1125 engine which delivers more power over a broader range, but at the expense of certain complexity and maintenance. For one, I'm glad it wasn't a sweeping, complete, across-the-board replacement of the Thunderstorm engines.



Right on.  It is preference.  I am very happy with the two Buells that I have owned.

[Brad1445]

On the other hand, Buell bought the 1125 engines from Rotax -- this engine was not sitting on a shelf, waiting for customers -- Buell had a fair amount of input as to the engine's design and specs.

The Rotax engine was built to Erik's specs. His design/engineering team had lots of input.

They offer a visceral, old-school feel with modern quality and features. Truly a best of both worlds engine. Add that engine to a kickass, top notch chassis as found in the Buells... it's a good combination. Again, please note, folks, I didn't say "better" than any others. Buell enhanced his offerings with the 1125 engine which delivers more power over a broader range, but at the expense of certain complexity and maintenance. For one, I'm glad it wasn't a sweeping, complete, across-the-board replacement of the Thunderstorm engines.

Buell Best Handling Bikes Ever
Rotax makes best engines Ever

HOw did this bike get so screwed up, thats what I want to know.  

If they had giving that engine development time, and the guy in the design studios a whack at this it would have slayed the competition. An American assembled) bike hat would have been as good as a Ducati for less.

It should have been the golden egg.

Drug testing is so important in the work place.