Erik Buell Interview Exclusive [motorcycle-usa.com]

[Schneegz]

Remember how Mr. Buell once said that he didn't want a water cooled engine, an how air cooled engines were perfect for sport bikes?  And remember how some Buell fans actually bought that crap and claimed (some continue to claim) that Harley never held Buell back from producing a water cooled engine?  Here's Erik Buell on that subject.

I built the prototype of the 1125 in 1988, so it took me 20 years to get it to market. And then we had another run at it, we were actually supposed to have a water-cooled bike out by 1998, but that became the motor, Harley Davidson decided to take the motor and changed it into a cruiser motor and that became the V-Rod. But it actually started out as our engine. We were trying to get a water-cooled bike. It was actually scheduled to launch, it was ready to launch in Europe in ’98.

“We’d just been in business doing the air-cooled for a couple years, and I felt we needed to go water-cooled as soon as possible, and so did the person who was the head of marketing at the time. But we got going, but once we were given the scale. Harley Davidson looked at it and said: ‘well, when you do launch it, it will only be at these numbers and we’re doing hundreds of thousands of motorcycles. If we did a water-cooled we’d sell a lot more of those, so we need to share the motor. In fact, we kind of need to drive the motor. And then when we’re done with it, you can use it.’ And it became a great cruiser motor, but it was just too big and too heavy, it only had a five-speed transmission – a lot of things were not appropriate to bring it out in the marketplace as a true sportbike engine.

“That truly was what I was trying to do with Buell from the beginning, is truly make it a sportbike company. We did great things with the air-cooled engines. But it was very much a niche, and like I said, I knew it.”

Yeah, I know.  This will never convince the "air cooled engines are perfect" believers, but it's fun to point out anyway.

Motorcycle USA has a fairly long post-BMC-mortem interview with Erik Buell on their site.

[chornbe]

The V-Rod engine, regardless of origination, was one that Erik wanted to use in his bikes early on, but Harley - mostly due to aesthetics - added heft and size to the external casing and some of the addons *they* deemed necessary (cylinder covers, etc) and the engine ended up being too physically large (mostly width, IIRC) and heavy for what Erik had in mind. Harley decided that since the future V-Rod engine and the engine Buell had on the bench had become two completely different lumps and didn't want to support two distinct engines, they shit-canned the one he had on the bench and built the V-Rod[1].  

He said that in an interview a couple of years ago... 2004, maybe? or 2007? I have a link somewhere, I'll dig it up.

I'm not sure who thinks the air-cooled engine is "the perfect sport bike engine". I'm of the opinion that for the street, a twin makes a whole lot more sense than an I4, but the air-cooled engine's big "plus" is simplicity and fewer components - not unilaterally "better". That's a silly notion[2].










[1] - some have said that was the beginning of the end of the Buell-Harley partnership.

[2] - Dear Willie G....  

[Kootenanny]

I just read that over at MCUSA, and came over here to post a link--only to find that it's already been posted.  Fine, but...I could do without the negativity.

I myself own an air-cooled Firebolt, and while I don't think it's "perfect," I bought it because I much preferred it to the I4 competition.  As LMDB sez, it makes a lot of sense for a streetbike.  It is simple, flexible, and produces a lot of torque in the rpm range many of us ride at.  I don't race on the street, but I do admit to riding quickly on occasion, and I'm seldom the last guy at the destination.  I've had my 'Bolt for five years now, and I can't see ever letting it go.

I think that H-D shows a lack of vision by axing Buell, just as he was getting into his stride (and Brad, don't even bother).

[Spiffious]

I don't think the issue is that air-cooled twins don't a good buell make,  But rather that HD held back Buell all along... Then killed buell before the 1125 could be refined.

[chornbe]

I myself own an air-cooled Firebolt, and while I don't think it's "perfect," I bought it because I much preferred it to the I4 competition.  As LMDB sez, it makes a lot of sense for a streetbike.  It is simple, flexible, and produces a lot of torque in the rpm range many of us ride at.  I don't race on the street, but I do admit to riding quickly on occasion, and I'm seldom the last guy at the destination.  I've had my 'Bolt for five years now, and I can't see ever letting it go.

Koot, that's exactly how I feel about my Sportster and how I expect I'll feel about my upcoming Ulie.  

Twins deliver power in a way that I feel is superior to I4s for real-world / street riding. Now, to keep paintie-bunching to a minimum... I want to be clear about what I just stated: I believe that how a twin delivers power is superior to most I4 engines. I didn't say "more" and I didn't say the engines are universally "better" (Larry, just calm down). I said I like how they deliver power.

Of the current offerings in the market place, almost nothing is simpler and cheaper to own and maintain than the Harley air-cooled twins - no valve adjustments, oil changes are 2 minute ordeals, primary chain takes about 30 seconds to inspect and another 3 to adjust if necessary, etc.

They offer a visceral, old-school feel with modern quality and features. Truly a best of both worlds engine. Add that engine to a kickass, top notch chassis as found in the Buells... it's a good combination. Again, please note, folks, I didn't say "better" than any others. Buell enhanced his offerings with the 1125 engine which delivers more power over a broader range, but at the expense of certain complexity and maintenance. For one, I'm glad it wasn't a sweeping, complete, across-the-board replacement of the Thunderstorm engines.

$.02

[desert_rider]

Interesting article, thanks for the link.

From the article:

“Like I said, I still wish it could’ve worked. I think if we’d have lasted another five years, we would’ve turned the thing around. We had just won our first championship, we would’ve run American Superbike this year, and World Superbike in 2011."

I would have so loved to see that.  

[Kootenanny]

I don't think the issue is that air-cooled twins don't a good buell make,  But rather that HD held back Buell all along... Then killed buell before the 1125 could be refined.

I agree that H-D killed Buell before the 1125 bikes got anywhere near where they could have been.  Maybe they wouldn't have worked as well as planned, but I'm sure Buell would have gotten them there somehow.

On the other point, though...I can't agree that H-D "held back Buell all along..."  Or if they did, it wasn't from any kind of animosity or control issue.  Rather, Buell was purchased by a much larger company, and held pretty much at arms length.  The purchase gave Buell the capital needed to develop the XB bikes, sales of which funded the 1125 engine project.  It wasn't like H-D was saying "Thou must only ever use air-cooled engines," but rather that H-D wasn't going to simply shovel money at Buell--they had to produce a a profit, and they had to fund their own projects from that.  Which they were doing when H-D corporate, under a brand-new CEO, decided to shut them down.

I notice that EB is very careful not to badmouth H-D or the CEO, I'm sure for legal reasons.  But it seems likely that shutting down BMC was part of a strategy by the new CEO to "take command" of H-D, to show everyone who's boss.  I think it was a bad move, but...we'll see.

[st ryder]

I don't think the issue is that air-cooled twins don't a good buell make,  But rather that HD held back Buell all along... Then killed buell before the 1125 could be refined.

I think the op's issue is Erik Buell's freely made statements about not wanting a liquid cooled bike when all he had to sell were air cooled. I think the above excerpt at a minimum infers if, not outruight shows, that he says one thing and then says quite another, so who knows what he'll say next?   It's about cred, and character.

If he would only say something along the lines of, "Yes, I'm on record for saying I'd never want a lc engine, but looking back, I see now that I may have been too enthusiastic about our engine since we were so proud of how much power we could get out of it. But now, after a number of years of making both ac and lc bikes, I've changed my mind, and feel that though there will always be a place for sporting ac twins, one must have lc to take the next performance steps, as we want to build sport bikes that compete at the highest levels."

I'd have a higher opinion of the guy if he did.    

[wbrisett]

I just read that over at MCUSA, and came over here to post a link--only to find that it's already been posted.  Fine, but...I could do without the negativity.

HD gets no sympathy, empathy, or even the time of day from most Buell owners. And you know what, they don't deserve it. Rarely did they do much to help Buell (other than the initial money to help keep Erik and Co in business to begin with). The partnership was doomed from the start and much of it I lay a the feet of HD and their marketing department. They simply didn't know what to do with a sport bike company. Even now, they haven't been very helpful to Buell owners. They've killed off anything that was considered an accessory, and honestly for some things there aren't other companies making them, so trying to find certain items on Buell bikes is now a major pain in the butt. Take the High Bars for the 1125CR, they just sold a boatload of them during their pricing blowout. Yet, they dropped the high bar kit because that was an accessory and not a warranty part. People have complained that they can't order certain parts already because HD has decided that those items don't fail under warranty, so it's not something they have to keep in stock.  HD wanted us gone, fine they got what they wanted. I for one certainly aren't going to smile and wave as I'm getting the shaft. HD will never see another dime from me except for the odd part that I can't get elsewhere. HD can take their lumps along with the rest of the industry as far as I'm concerned. Few of the manufacturers actually care about the buying public. HD simply has been doing it to Buell owners for a much longer time, and there is still some pain there, so you're going to see negativity about them from Buell owners. Get over it, cause it's going to happen.

Wayne

[Kootenanny]

...I for one certainly aren't going to smile and wave as I'm getting the shaft. HD will never see another dime from me except for the odd part that I can't get elsewhere. HD can take their lumps along with the rest of the industry as far as I'm concerned. Few of the manufacturers actually care about the buying public. HD simply has been doing it to Buell owners for a much longer time, and there is still some pain there, so you're going to see negativity about them from Buell owners. Get over it, cause it's going to happen.

Wayne

I you'd read my post, you'd see that my comment had to do with negativity about the air-cooled Buells, which I think are great bikes.  I am not smiling and waving at H-D...I believe they've made a major blunder, and I have stated elsewhere exactly the same as you--that I will never give them another dime if I can help it.

[Brad1445]

I think that H-D shows a lack of vision by axing Buell, just as he was getting into his stride .

Harley had no choice!  

The market had spoken

It was humane to put Buell out of its misery.

The beast had to die!

[Baz]

I don't think the issue is that air-cooled twins don't a good buell make,  But rather that HD held back Buell all along... Then killed buell before the 1125 could be refined.

I don't know how much influence Buell would have had over the 1125 development. It was designed, manufactured & sold to Buell by Rotax.  

Does HD have any influence on S&S engine building?

[Brad1445]

HD gets no sympathy, empathy, or even the time of day from most Buell owners. And you know what, they don't deserve it. Rarely did they do much to help Buell (other than the initial money to help keep Erik and Co in business to begin with). The partnership was doomed from the start and much of it I lay a the feet of HD and their marketing department. They simply didn't know what to do with a sport bike company. Even now, they haven't been very helpful to Buell owners. They've killed off anything that was considered an accessory, and honestly for some things there aren't other companies making them, so trying to find certain items on Buell bikes is now a major pain in the butt. Take the High Bars for the 1125CR, they just sold a boatload of them during their pricing blowout. Yet, they dropped the high bar kit because that was an accessory and not a warranty part. People have complained that they can't order certain parts already because HD has decided that those items don't fail under warranty, so it's not something they have to keep in stock.  HD wanted us gone, fine they got what they wanted. I for one certainly aren't going to smile and wave as I'm getting the shaft. HD will never see another dime from me except for the odd part that I can't get elsewhere. HD can take their lumps along with the rest of the industry as far as I'm concerned. Few of the manufacturers actually care about the buying public. HD simply has been doing it to Buell owners for a much longer time, and there is still some pain there, so you're going to see negativity about them from Buell owners. Get over it, cause it's going to happen.

Wayne

I seriously don't see how Harley gets all the blame.

- did they design the bikes looks  that the press ridicules?
- did they design the EFI drivability issues  that the press ridicules?
- did they design the clutch leaks the  that press ridicules?
- did they design the turn signal failures  that the press ridicules?
- did they design the  Speedometer head failures  that  the press ridicules?
- did they design the  hard cold starting  that the press ridicules?
- did they design the  parasitic electrical drain that the press ridicules?

I could go on but my typing sucks.  See I admit my mistakes.  If Buell did in 2008 and made the 09 better, or the 2010 better they would have sold.

[wbrisett]

I you'd read my post, you'd see that my comment had to do with negativity about the air-cooled Buells, which I think are great bikes.  I am not smiling and waving at H-D...I believe they've made a major blunder, and I have stated elsewhere exactly the same as you--that I will never give them another dime if I can help it.

Actually, I read it, but it wasn't until you reframed the conversation, that I understood what you meant!

Sorry, Brad I'm going to disagree with you. We'll leave it at that.

Wayne

[cooter]

I seriously don't see.

Fixed that for ya..  

[UFO]

Why couldn't someone have notified me of this?    Good front page news item.

[bomber]

I don't know how much influence Buell would have had over the 1125 development. It was designed, manufactured & sold to Buell by Rotax.  

Does HD have any influence on S&S engine building?

HD has no input on S&S mills, it's true.

But HD doesn't buy anything from S&S.

On the other hand, Buell bought the 1125 engines from Rotax -- this engine was not sitting on a shelf, waiting for customers -- Buell had a fair amount of input as to the engine's design and specs.

[chornbe]

I don't know how much influence Buell would have had over the 1125 development. It was designed, manufactured & sold to Buell by Rotax.  

Does HD have any influence on S&S engine building?

The Rotax engine was built to Erik's specs. His design/engineering team had lots of input.

[tankhead]

They offer a visceral, old-school feel with modern quality and features. Truly a best of both worlds engine. Add that engine to a kickass, top notch chassis as found in the Buells... it's a good combination. Again, please note, folks, I didn't say "better" than any others. Buell enhanced his offerings with the 1125 engine which delivers more power over a broader range, but at the expense of certain complexity and maintenance. For one, I'm glad it wasn't a sweeping, complete, across-the-board replacement of the Thunderstorm engines.



Right on.  It is preference.  I am very happy with the two Buells that I have owned.

[Brad1445]

On the other hand, Buell bought the 1125 engines from Rotax -- this engine was not sitting on a shelf, waiting for customers -- Buell had a fair amount of input as to the engine's design and specs.

The Rotax engine was built to Erik's specs. His design/engineering team had lots of input.

They offer a visceral, old-school feel with modern quality and features. Truly a best of both worlds engine. Add that engine to a kickass, top notch chassis as found in the Buells... it's a good combination. Again, please note, folks, I didn't say "better" than any others. Buell enhanced his offerings with the 1125 engine which delivers more power over a broader range, but at the expense of certain complexity and maintenance. For one, I'm glad it wasn't a sweeping, complete, across-the-board replacement of the Thunderstorm engines.

Buell Best Handling Bikes Ever
Rotax makes best engines Ever

HOw did this bike get so screwed up, thats what I want to know.  

If they had giving that engine development time, and the guy in the design studios a whack at this it would have slayed the competition. An American assembled) bike hat would have been as good as a Ducati for less.

It should have been the golden egg.

Drug testing is so important in the work place.

[steve.m]

Harley had no choice!  

The market had spoken

It was humane to put Buell out of its misery.

The beast had to die!

 

dude you've got more angst than a pregnant emo teen

[Squidbuzz]

Do you get the feeling from this interview that Erik is saying that HD isn't doing well because they aren't customer focused?  hhm...

[dorklord]

Do you get the feeling from this interview that Erik is saying that HD isn't doing well because they aren't customer focused?  hhm...

I get the feeling that he thinks "We firmly belive that $1 invested in going to market with the Harley-Davidson brand delivers much more impact than the same dollar invested elsewhere when it comes to reaching new rider demographics." is downright...stupid. Harley is good at delivering a bike that their customer base wants, but reaching new rider demographics is definitely NOT their strong suit.

[atadaskew]

I'm not sure how I feel about Erik Buell.

Him claiming he wanted the LC motor all along, after spouting for years how perfect the AC motor was, kinda is insulting to those who own AC Buells.  Not as insulting as crushing a Blast and making an ad about it but still.

It's because, quite frankly, Buell was lying about the development of his bikes.  He DID repeatedly claim how great the AC motor was for the application, but now that his company is gone, he wanted LC all along?

There's a certain amount of tact that is lacking here.  I used to think of him as a straight shooter, but now it seems that that may not have been the case all along.  He just kept his trap shut and played along with the Harley management.  I wonder how this would be different if we ever hear their take on this story?

[Brad1445]

Well articulated atadaskew.

Many odd contradictions have been shown in the last 24 months from the factory at Badweb, but now more than ever.

some weird odd stuff.  One week, we wanted this, next week we never wanted that.  

Even today a odd one,  anonymous posted at badweb that this is a dangerous design and "DO NOT RIDE".


http://magpulronin.com/

Because  of the radiators weight in front of the forks was dangerous?  What does the fairing weigh, and how far from the forks?

what does this mug weigh?



Its as wide as a Goldwing up front!

[Bueller]

I think it is pretty clear that he wanted a LC motor.  He was aiming for a motor that made 80 ft/lbs of torque at 3,000 RPM and revved to 10,000.  He's got close.

He told us the story of working with Porsche on the V-rod motor when we met with him last year.  He said it was originally developed as a motor for a Buell.  That was back when no-one thought that there was was any clouds on the Buell horizon.

He is a racer.  He is a race engineer.  Own the corners is one thing, but own the track is what everyone in his position with his drive to succeed wants.  Why would he put himself in an aircooled box.  These is no reason why Buell wasn't set to run with the aircolled line - the significant evolutions in the 2010 model show that, but a Buell would stay away from water about as mutch as Ducati would.

[Kootenanny]

...Why would he put himself in an aircooled box.

Well, Buell is on record (I have a CD with the film) extolling the virtues of the A/C engine, and I believe he did state at one point that there would never be a L/C engine in a Buell.  That may have been a bit of sour grapes at the time.  But on the other hand, the points he makes about the A/C engines are valid, and I for one am quite happy with the "Thunderstorm" engine in my Buell.

[steve.m]

Well, Buell is on record (I have a CD with the film) extolling the virtues of the A/C engine, and I believe he did state at one point that there would never be a L/C engine in a Buell.  That may have been a bit of sour grapes at the time.  But on the other hand, the points he makes about the A/C engines are valid, and I for one am quite happy with the "Thunderstorm" engine in my Buell.

youtube?

and I agree, I'm VERY happy with my engine/bike/experience.  I only wish I could fit on a firebolt, there'd be one in the garage too!

[Brad1445]

Well, Buell is on record (I have a CD with the film) extolling the virtues of the A/C engine, and I believe he did state at one point that there would never be a L/C engine in a Buell.  That may have been a bit of sour grapes at the time.  But on the other hand, the points he makes about the A/C engines are valid, and I for one am quite happy with the "Thunderstorm" engine in my Buell.

84 torque right off the line,

That engine is a rush in the twisty's

Dream Ride tail of the dragon, closed from public traffic, on a  Buell Firebolt.  THat torque with no drive train lash is a sensation that cannot be described.  It must be felt.

[oldenslow]

That's the problem I had with E.B., I too remember when he was extolling the virtues of the a.c. engine, which is fine because I agree with some of it.  But it seemed to me he was either being egotistical or just  a good corporate boy.  Don't want to piss off the meal ticket.  

[Kootenanny]

That's the problem I had with E.B., I too remember when he was extolling the virtues of the a.c. engine, which is fine because I agree with some of it.  But it seemed to me he was either being egotistical or just  a good corporate boy.  Don't want to piss off the meal ticket.  

I think it has a lot to do with Buell's personality.  He's well known to be very enthusiastic about his projects, almost obsessive.  So, when he's in a position where the only engine really available to him is H-D's A/C lump, rather than cry about not having a L/C engine, he puts his energy into making it the best A/C engine he can make.  He looks at the engine's strengths, and builds on them.  Sure, in the back of his mind, he's thinking ahead to the possibility of another engine, but he lives in the present, and if that present only includes an A/C engine, that's what he enthuses about.

[phoenix]

absolutely. He had to promote the products they had available in order to sell bikes and stay in business. Who would buy a bike from a manufacturer if the chief engineer said he didn't care for it one bit and wanted something entirely different?

[macdiver]

It took me a while to find this interview May 2000.   Halfway down, Erik Buell talks about air cooled vs. liquid cooled engines.  While he definitly pushes the air cooled engine he does not rule out using a liquid cooled engine in the future. Looks to me like he was really just defending using the engine technology that he had.   Not sure if anyone  can point to other interviews where Erik Buell discusses air cooling versus liquid cooling.  

Hopefully the link will work.

http://www.gazette9.com/buells.html/talking.htm

[Baz]

absolutely. He had to promote the products they had available in order to sell bikes and stay in business. Who would buy a bike from a manufacturer if the chief engineer said he didn't care for it one bit and wanted something entirely different?

 

It would have been corporate suicide for Eric to do otherwise.

[steve.m]

just read through there, he makes a lot of good points, especially this one

"we were gonna build a bike that people were gonna use for transportation, for jumping around the city. We expect a lot of short trips, and in fact most motorcycle use is for a lot of short trips. Air-cooled engines heat up almost instantly"

Buell built a great road going motorcycle, not a track bike.  they succeeded admirably in that with the XB line.

Still wish i could fit on a firebolt.  Maybe I can find a wrecked Uly and a wrecked firebolt and make myself one hell of a sweet ride

[Kootenanny]

absolutely. He had to promote the products they had available in order to sell bikes and stay in business. Who would buy a bike from a manufacturer if the chief engineer said he didn't care for it one bit and wanted something entirely different?

Maybe Buell wanted a L/C engine all along...he'd built his first prototype back in 1989 or so...that's not to say he "didn't care for [the XBs] one bit."  He built the best bike he could with the engine he had available to him, and...it's a great bike!  

The only advantage the 1125 series has over the 'Bolt is a few more horsepower--OK, maybe quite a few--but, it would seem, it has a few disadvantages, too.  And the 'Bolt has more than enough power for anyone riding on public roads.  The only place it fails is bench racing and bragging rights.

What I'm saying is that, when EB was extolling the virtues of the A/C XBs, I have no reason to doubt he wasn't sincere.  The XBs are great bikes, for pretty much all the reasons EB mentioned.  And the Thunderstorm engine is a great streetbike engine.  

As an aside, when the 1125R came out, I was asked on this and other forums when I was going to get one.  I'm known to be enthusiastic about my Firebolt, and people naturally assumed that I would want to "upgrade" to the newer, more powerful machine.  But ya know, I never had the desire to get an 1125R.  It had nothing to do with the looks (sorry, Brad)--I just didn't see any advantage.  I'm happy with the power my Firebolt makes (I keep up just fine, thanks).  I love the size of the 'Bolt; I don't want the longer 1125R wheelbase.  I love the simplicity of the A/C engine, and most importantly, I love the way it makes power, and the way it feels making it.  Basically, the bike suits me and my riding style well, and I could never see why everyone expected me to upgrade.   Then again, I don't see why people denigrate the Firebolt in the first place...I could have bought a 600 supersport, but I preferred the 'Bolt, and I think that if more people had actually ridden the bikes with an open mind, perhaps Buell would still be in business.

Ya see, I also believe that Buell built the 1125R not just because EB wanted a L/C bike, but because the market wanted a L/C bike.  The 1125R was intended to appeal to all those people who said they'd buy a Buell if it had a L/C engine.  And while I feel the demise of Buell was a poorly thought out, capricious decision by the new board and CEO of H-D, perhaps if Buell wasn't struggling with the 1125 series so much, that decision might have been more difficult to make.

[Tpoppa]

I'm not sure how I feel about Erik Buell.

Him claiming he wanted the LC motor all along, after spouting for years how perfect the AC motor was, kinda is insulting to those who own AC Buells.  Not as insulting as crushing a Blast and making an ad about it but still.

It's because, quite frankly, Buell was lying about the development of his bikes.  He DID repeatedly claim how great the AC motor was for the application, but now that his company is gone, he wanted LC all along?

There's a certain amount of tact that is lacking here.  I used to think of him as a straight shooter, but now it seems that that may not have been the case all along.  He just kept his trap shut and played along with the Harley management.  I wonder how this would be different if we ever hear their take on this story?

A point worth clarifying it that the XB's were designed and marketed to be STREET bikes.  At no point did Buell, Erik, or otherwise claim that they were RACE bikes.  For a STREET bike, the AC Thunderstorm motor does a great job, but it isn't up to par on the track.  Common knowledge.  Buell took the AC motor to it's limits and beyond with the XBRR and proved that AC motors aren't for top level road racing.

If you know anything about Erik, you know he is a racer at heart.  He wanted nothing less than a mill capable of winning on the track.  I don't see how this is a surprise to anyone???

I think the interview is a good read.  And it should be quite obvious that there are things he cannot say.  I am sure his is furious about more than a few decisions made by HD.  He is bound by a non-compete/non-disclosure agreement and some things cannot be said.

[Brad1445]

I bet Harley is going to milk him for all his worth.  After paying to develop the successful XB bikes, now Harley hit the mother load. Soon pods will be on all the Harleys.

[Tpoppa]

Remember how Mr. Buell once said that he didn't want a water cooled engine, an how air cooled engines were perfect for sport bikes?  And remember how some Buell fans actually bought that crap and claimed (some continue to claim) that Harley never held Buell back from producing a water cooled engine?  Here's Erik Buell on that subject.

I don't remember.  Where did he say that?

[st ryder]

It took me a while to find this interview May 2000.   Halfway down, Erik Buell talks about air cooled vs. liquid cooled engines.  While he definitly pushes the air cooled engine he does not rule out using a liquid cooled engine in the future. Looks to me like he was really just defending using the engine technology that he had.   Not sure if anyone  can point to other interviews where Erik Buell discusses air cooling versus liquid cooling.  

Hopefully the link will work.

http://www.gazette9.com/buells.html/talking.htm

He goes well beyond defending his a/c engines, he states air cooled works fine, and liquid cooled is not needed for everyday bikes, (remember how the 1125R was introduced as a rider first bike/everyday bike, not a "R" bike, even though it had a R suffix?) and in fact he goes on and gives examples of air cooled engines' superiority in heat exchange situations, and only gives the most cursory of nods to liquid cooled, saying they will probably build some because some customers may want them.  

Sorry, but if you read that interview and did not come away thinking "EB says a/c is better", then I don't think you really read it with an open mind. But, even more interesting and equally inditing of his waffling nature, is that he talks a lot about the Blast in that interview in the most glowing terms, and states it was a product that was well researched, and that they not only delivered what beginners wanted, but also, ""You know what? I kinda like it that way too!" This about the very same bike he later said was not what Buell really stood for before he tossed one in the crusher.

Sorry, but EB's   spun.  

One BS story after another IMO.  

[chornbe]

Maybe Buell wanted a L/C engine all along...he'd built his first prototype back in 1989 or so...that's not to say he "didn't care for [the XBs] one bit."  He built the best bike he could with the engine he had available to him, and...it's a great bike!  

The only advantage the 1125 series has over the 'Bolt is a few more horsepower--OK, maybe quite a few--but, it would seem, it has a few disadvantages, too.  And the 'Bolt has more than enough power for anyone riding on public roads.  The only place it fails is bench racing and bragging rights.

What I'm saying is that, when EB was extolling the virtues of the A/C XBs, I have no reason to doubt he wasn't sincere.  The XBs are great bikes, for pretty much all the reasons EB mentioned.  And the Thunderstorm engine is a great streetbike engine.  

As an aside, when the 1125R came out, I was asked on this and other forums when I was going to get one.  I'm known to be enthusiastic about my Firebolt, and people naturally assumed that I would want to "upgrade" to the newer, more powerful machine.  But ya know, I never had the desire to get an 1125R.  It had nothing to do with the looks (sorry, Brad)--I just didn't see any advantage.  I'm happy with the power my Firebolt makes (I keep up just fine, thanks).  I love the size of the 'Bolt; I don't want the longer 1125R wheelbase.  I love the simplicity of the A/C engine, and most importantly, I love the way it makes power, and the way it feels making it.  Basically, the bike suits me and my riding style well, and I could never see why everyone expected me to upgrade.   Then again, I don't see why people denigrate the Firebolt in the first place...I could have bought a 600 supersport, but I preferred the 'Bolt, and I think that if more people had actually ridden the bikes with an open mind, perhaps Buell would still be in business.

Ya see, I also believe that Buell built the 1125R not just because EB wanted a L/C bike, but because the market wanted a L/C bike.  The 1125R was intended to appeal to all those people who said they'd buy a Buell if it had a L/C engine.  And while I feel the demise of Buell was a poorly thought out, capricious decision by the new board and CEO of H-D, perhaps if Buell wasn't struggling with the 1125 series so much, that decision might have been more difficult to make.

Very, very well stated.  

[bomber]

Ya see, I also believe that Buell built the 1125R not just because EB wanted a L/C bike, but because the market wanted a L/C bike.  The 1125R was intended to appeal to all those people who said they'd buy a Buell if it had a L/C engine.  And while I feel the demise of Buell was a poorly thought out, capricious decision by the new board and CEO of H-D, perhaps if Buell wasn't struggling with the 1125 series so much, that decision might have been more difficult to make.

I believe this is the point that's missed often -- the American motorcycle buyer often decides to purchase a spec sheet. The spec sheet boys say no rider worth his salt would settle for a bike with a Harley engine in it, to the Rotax mill was a logical step --

Along with being an pretty innovative engineer, Buell is a great jack-leg marketing guy, as well -- me, I can't fault him for being enthusiastic and what he's got to sell, not even a little.

It's so much easier to find 18 cuttings from interviews over 15 years and find the inconsistencies than it is to do the work . . . .

[steve.m]

Sorry, but if you read that interview and did not come away thinking "EB says a/c is better", then I don't think you really read it with an open mind. But, even more interesting and equally inditing of his waffling nature, is that he talks a lot about the Blast in that interview in the most glowing terms, and states it was a product that was well researched, and that they not only delivered what beginners wanted, but also, ""You know what? I kinda like it that way too!" This about the very same bike he later said was not what Buell really stood for before he tossed one in the crusher.

check the date of the interview 7/17/00.  liquid cooled engines were barely a blip on the horizon for buell at that point.  and IIRC, the blast had just come out and was a HUGE seller (comparably speaking of course).  at the time, the blast was probably carrying sales for the company, and he may have liked it at the time for being a manageable, efficient beginner's bike that would build brand loyalty.  ten years down the road...well it's a whole other story.  he states in the interview he's trying to build a road bike and AC works great for that.  When buell went under they were trying to build race bikes that were liquid cooled...which is exactly the application he suggested LC would be ideally suited.

I don't think he's waffling...i think you guys are reading things out of context.  I feel that buell's mission statement changed a bit in the end, seeing that ricky racer wants a sportbike he sees racing on a track...not a street machine.

name a company today that's operating under the same mission statement as ten years ago and i'll show you a company that's out of business.  Buell was trying to adapt to the market, just too little, too late.  and brad...beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I like the CR, i think it looks like the pit bull of motorcycles.  you can't tell me buell went down because of the appearance of it's bikes.  I HATE the way the new kawasaki's look...yet i see them all over the place.  

[Tpoppa]

He goes well beyond defending his a/c engines, he states air cooled works fine, and liquid cooled is not needed for everyday bikes, (remember how the 1125R was introduced as a rider first bike/everyday bike, not a "R" bike, even though it had a R suffix?) and in fact he goes on and gives examples of air cooled engines' superiority in heat exchange situations, and only gives the most cursory of nods to liquid cooled, saying they will probably build some because some customers may want them.  

Sorry, but if you read that interview and did not come away thinking "EB says a/c is better", then I don't think you really read it with an open mind. But, even more interesting and equally inditing of his waffling nature, is that he talks a lot about the Blast in that interview in the most glowing terms, and states it was a product that was well researched, and that they not only delivered what beginners wanted, but also, ""You know what? I kinda like it that way too!" This about the very same bike he later said was not what Buell really stood for before he tossed one in the crusher.

Sorry, but EB's   spun.  

One BS story after another IMO.  

This thread has officially gotten ridiculous.

Go play the 'what did he say 10 years ago game' with Obama (or insert any other non-partisan name here) and tell me what you come up with

[st ryder]

Between the blatant shift in his positions on both the a/c-l/c engine issue, and the way he treated the Blast, I cannot ally myself with the man as he's consistently demonstrated a lack of congruity if not integrity IMO, both of which matter very much to me. I understand people change, but acknowledging the shift in opinions etc with an explanation or an "I was wrong" or "I've changed my mind" would be nice.

"Racer/engineer?" Fair enough. "Flim flammer/snake oil sales man?" I say it fits equally well.   I like the older a/c tubers, especially the Thunderbolt and if I can pick one up for a song I might, but the more he speaks, the less I'm interested to tell you the truth.  

[Tpoppa]

Between the blatant shift in his positions on both the a/c-l/c engine issue, and the way he treated the Blast, I cannot ally myself with the man as he's consistently demonstrated a lack of congruity if not integrity IMO, both of which matter very much to me. I understand people change, but acknowledging the shift in opinions etc with an explanation or an "I was wrong" or "I've changed my mind" would be nice.

"Racer/engineer?" Fair enough. "Flim flammer/snake oil sales man?" I say it fits equally well.   I like the older a/c tubers, especially the Thunderbolt and if I can pick one up for a song I might, but the more he speaks, the less I'm interested to tell you the truth.  

You are missing quite a bit of information.  Google is your friend.  The Blast began life as a HD (not Buell) project.  The plan to kill the Blast was NOT Erik's idea.  Note the timing of the Blast killing, the decision was made just as the new HD CEO came onboard and was not yet up to speed, and the outgoing CEO was not able to stop it...  

If you are going to basically call the man a liar...at least show me whrere he said an AC motor was the best option for a sportbike?  I doubt you can.  Also, common sense would dictate that it's not a good idea to speak badly about AC motors when your parent company is the largest manufacturer or AC motorcycle mills.  

Ducati makes AC & LC mills does that mean they are flim flammers?  BMW?

[st ryder]

You are missing quite a bit of information.  Google is your friend.  The Blast began life as a HD (not Buell) project.  The plan to kill the Blast was NOT Erik's idea.  Note the timing of the Blast killing, the decision was made just as the new HD CEO came onboard and was not yet up to speed, and the outgoing CEO was not able to stop it...  

If you are going to basically call the man a liar...at least show me whrere he said an AC motor was the best option for a sportbike?  I doubt you can.  Also, common sense would dictate that it's not a good idea to speak badly about AC motors when your parent company is the largest manufacturer or AC motorcycle mills.  

Ducati makes AC & LC mills does that mean they are flim flammers?  BMW?

I have nothing against Buell a/c bikes or a/c bikes in general. Had a couple of FJ 12's and a HD BT, want a MG and am open to a Buell not to mention how much I like some Ducati and BMW a/c twins. I do recognise their limits and quite frankly was insulted by EB's comments when I read them in 2000 and it turned me off to Buell a bit, because of the way he was, for all intents and purposes, infering they were better than l/c for getting rid of heat and quicker warm up etc and if fact, he stated in that article that other than noise reduction and the attraction they may have for some Buell fans, he did not feel l/c had many advantages over a/c. I remember saying to myself then, "Who's he trying to kid?" Like I said before, I cannot imagine anybody reading that aricle and not thinking EB's "message" was that a/c is better than L/C in most applications. Then, a decade later, he states he wanted l/c all along.

I cannot think of any Ducati or BMW executive that stated so many positive things about a/c engines as opposed to l/c than EB is on record for saying about a/c engines when that's was all he had for sale. That's the issue. He promoted with great zeal, an engine he truly felt was second best, so he could sell bikes. He mislead others as to what his true beliefs were. Saying one thing while believing in another so you can make a living is what I call film flam. You may call it something else.  

The Blast may not have started out as a Buell, but when it went into the crusher, Mr Buell's name was on it and Mr Buell was at the controls of the crane and Mr Buell acted like he was having a good time doing it.  I cannot think of any other motorcycle company that would do that.  

[Tpoppa]

I didn't care for the Blast crushing.  Keep in mind, retiring the Blast was conceived by HD.  Crushing the Blast was conceived by HD marketing--Buell had no marketing department.

I suspect (and have heard from some with inside info) that retiring the Blast was presented as 'Now you can focus on race bikes.  The Blast idea came from Zeimer (google him), perhaps Erik would have been more attached to it if it was his concept...who knows.

Either way, I thoug the Blast crushing was in poor taste, and I am reminded that Buell had no marketing department.

btw, the first Buell was liquid cooled.

[Brad1445]

..........

I don't think he's waffling...i think you guys are reading things out of context.  I feel that buell's mission statement changed a bit in the end, seeing that ricky racer wants a sportbike he sees racing on a track...not a street machine.

.........

read through the post at Badweb from the company itself,  they post under  the name anonymous.
I have been there for about six years.  

Since the 1125 they made the company sound like Waffle House.  Everyone blaming some one else for this or that, or claiming a flaw was meant to be that way one week, and then  a fix would appear a week later...  Truth was hard to find ever since the 1125 intro.

Sometime you could find a contradiction within a single post.

Side note, I find it hard to believe that a company that is arguably one of the best marketers in the world (Harley) would have made or approved that Blast add.  Marketing 101, Don't call your customers stupid.

[chornbe]

I don't recall hearing Erik extoll the virtues of air- over water-cooled, but he has always maintained that the twins make the most sense for street power delivery. As far as the air/water thing, he probably just said and used whatever was best for the goal du jour. Maybe he never had the $$$ to develop the water cooled engine he really wanted all along and decided to *choose* to love the air cooled engines made available to him by Harley. In the end... who cares. How many of us have spent our entire adult lives doing something we truly love, becoming very successful at it and becoming someone who, quirks aside, is almost a house-hold name in this business?

[steve.m]

Since the 1125 they made the company sound like Waffle House.  Everyone blaming some one else for this or that, or claiming a flaw was meant to be that way one week, and then  a fix would appear a week later...  Truth was hard to find ever since the 1125 intro.

an unsuccessful engineering design is exactly that...Buell tried NEW concepts that didn't ALWAYS work.  they took a hell of a lot more chances than most companies their size should have.  Those conceptual designs that made it to production will be defended by the developers until the public deems it a flaw.  once the market finds a flaw, the company will HAVE to change it to maintain their business.  

I know you're in marketing...but c'mon man, you should know a little bit about how engineering departments operate by now.  

I think we've all agreed that the 1125 was released before the bugs were worked out and it hurt buell's PR.  move on...  

[bomber]

I cannot ally myself with the man as he's consistently demonstrated a lack of congruity if not integrity IMO, both of which matter very much to me.



"Racer/engineer?" Fair enough. "Flim flammer/snake oil sales man?" I say it fits equally well.  

An inetersting method by which to decide on product purchases . . . .

What is it you ride? (nah, that's a rhetorical qeustion).

[wbrisett]

You are missing quite a bit of information.  Google is your friend.  The Blast began life as a HD (not Buell) project.  

According to Court's book 25 Years of Buell, this isn't entirely accurate either. The Blast only came about because nobody at HD wanted to build a smaller bike, but they needed one for the MSF course. Erik was asked about it and said they would design one. In the book there is a photo or two of prototypes used for the Blast. It was a Buell, but not designed for Buell, but for HD. And more specifically for the Rider's Edge program.

Wayne

[Tpoppa]

I haven't read that book, and probably won't.

The former CEO propsed the idea for a cheaper entry level bike because saw a need to attract younger buyers to the HD brand, including Riders Edge.  It was shot down because 'We Build Big Bikes for Badasses."  That idea eventually became the Blast.

Does that book mention anything about the Blast being the test mule for the Thunderstorm mill?

[steve.m]

According to Court's book 25 Years of Buell, this isn't entirely accurate either. The Blast only came about because nobody at HD wanted to build a smaller bike, but they needed one for the MSF course. Erik was asked about it and said they would design one. In the book there is a photo or two of prototypes used for the Blast. It was a Buell, but not designed for Buell, but for HD. And more specifically for the Rider's Edge program.

Wayne

Proof the 883 sportster is NOT a beginner's bike

[chornbe]

Proof the 883 sportster is NOT a beginner's bike

I don't care how many "faithful" put their previously non-riding spouses on them, the Sportster makes a horrible first bike. It's intimidating to new riders. For a variety of reasons.

[Kootenanny]

I cannot think of any Ducati or BMW executive that stated so many positive things about a/c engines as opposed to l/c than EB is on record for saying about a/c engines when that's was all he had for sale. That's the issue. He promoted with great zeal, an engine he truly felt was second best, so he could sell bikes. He mislead others as to what his true beliefs were. Saying one thing while believing in another so you can make a living is what I call film flam. You may call it something else.  

Sure he promoted the bike with great zeal.  What's he supposed to do, cry and moan that H-D won't give him the money to develop a L/C engine?  Yeah, he's gonna sell a LOT of XBs that way.  Or should he promote the Thunderstorm engine, and use sales from that to fund future developments?

I don't see you castigating any of the Big Four for this, but...pick up any old magazine and check the advertisements, you'll see they always promote their latest offerings "with great zeal."  Yet, two years down the road, they always come out with something even better!  Any company has bikes in the design stage--but none of them are saying, "Don't buy our current production bikes because in two years we're gonna have something even better!"  


BTW, have you seen the video clip of David Robb talking about the S1000R?  

[chornbe]

I should sue Honda. I owned two CBR600F4i models, yet they're supplanted by two generations of CBR/RR bikes. DAMN IT!
 

[bomber]

It's really too bad that Buell has truly closed . . . . . . the buzz generated in the last few months could very well have propelled to brand to a HUGE sales spike!

[Tpoppa]

Sure he promoted the bike with great zeal.  What's he supposed to do, cry and moan that H-D won't give him the money to develop a L/C engine?  Yeah, he's gonna sell a LOT of XBs that way.  Or should he promote the Thunderstorm engine, and use sales from that to fund future developments?

I don't see you castigating any of the Big Four for this, but...pick up any old magazine and check the advertisements, you'll see they always promote their latest offerings "with great zeal."  Yet, two years down the road, they always come out with something even better!  Any company has bikes in the design stage--but none of them are saying, "Don't buy our current production bikes because in two years we're gonna have something even better!"  


BTW, have you seen the video clip of David Robb talking about the S1000R?  

Hey, someone that understands business!!
+1

[desert_rider]

According to Court's book 25 Years of Buell,

I've never heard of this book.  Any good?  Is it worth tracking down?

[bomber]

Whitehorse Press has it

It's a nice book on Buells, with some interesting data in it --

Written/photographed by two ex-emplyees (who left not disgruntled? would that be gruntled?) who remain friends and admirers of Buell.

[Tpoppa]

A good portion of this thead is laughable.  This notion that introducing new models is waffling is ridiculios.  I blame the educational system.

Consider the Ducati Monster.  The original Monster was a 904cc machine.  Ducati told us that was the one to buy.  Now, how many times has Ducati 'waffled' on the displacement?  

600
620
695
696
800
900
904
992
996
1100
etc.
I mean seriously, can we even trust Ducati anymore?  

It's called product development.  I'm just glad that Brad was able to post the pic of the black pod for the 500th time.

[Brad1445]

I've never heard of this book.  Any good?  Is it worth tracking down?

Read his post it should be 25 years of Bull - white washes everything and farts rainbows

[tankhead]

Tpoppa, Can I get an AMEN!!!! Seriously.  Erik built motorcycles.  He had a great run.  Excellent handling air cooled motorcycles. Who gives a rats ass really.  I have owned two of his motorcycles.  The XB9SX and now the XB12X.  I took my SX across the country.  I sold the bike with over 26,000 miles on it in two years of ownership without one hiccup. I hope my '09 will give me years of pleasure from the lump.  Carry on Erik. Make whatever the hell you want to make.  I am sure it will be great. Thanks for the great motorcycles that I have purchased.

[Brad1445]

It's really too bad that Buell has truly closed . . . . . . the buzz generated in the last few months could very well have propelled to brand to a HUGE sales spike!

But the latest product was not selling?  The older models were out selling it.

[Brad1445]

A good portion of this thead is laughable.  This notion that introducing new models is waffling is ridiculios.  I blame the educational system.

Consider the Ducati Monster.  The original Monster was a 904cc machine.  Ducati told us that was the one to buy.  Now, how many times has Ducati 'waffled' on the displacement?  

600
620
695
696
800
900
904
992
996
1100
etc.
I mean seriously, can we even trust Ducati anymore?  

It's called product development.  I'm just glad that Brad was able to post the pic of the black pod for the 500th time.

 

You compare a bike that has been selling for over ten years and started a movement,  I hope that a company would make changes over that many years.

Buells 1125 was not innovation, it was the old bike with new engines and water hanging off the sides like old lady boobs. It's the bike that killed them.  It was the bad press. Their waffles were blame on reliability.   It took nearly a year and a half to realize the metric system and the standard system are different.
501

[Brad1445]

PS the Ducati list is mostly due to variations, and engine evolution. not mandatory reliability changes.

One other note Monsters sell, 1125's did not.

Buell is out of Business.

[Tpoppa]

The more I see that pod, the more I like it  

[Brad1445]

The more I see that pod, the more I like it  

lol, run away from the light

[Spiffious]

  

You compare a bike that has been selling for over ten years and started a movement,  I hope that a company would make changes over that many years.

Buells 1125 was not innovation, it was the old bike with new engines and water hanging off the sides like old lady boobs. It's the bike that killed them.  It was the bad press. Their waffles were blame on reliability.   It took nearly a year and a half to realize the metric system and the standard system are different.
501

Speaking as an artist:

The pods, while not amazing... are not a real aesthetic problem.   (Therefore not the reason for Buell's untimely demise.)


If anything, the source of unbalance is the front fairing.  That is why the R is a bit odd... where most seem to find the CR more attractive, even with the same pods.






vs:

[Tpoppa]

Speaking as an artist:

The pods, while not amazing... are not a real aesthetic problem.   (Therefore not the reason for Buell's untimely demise.)

If anything, the source of unbalance is the front fairing.  That is why the R is a bit odd... where most seem to find the CR more attractive, even with the same pods.

I would tend to agree with that assessment.

I think the CR is the better looking of the two.  I wound up buying R for the wind protection, and figured these will be club raced for years to come.  So, if I ever decide to sell, there will probably be more of a resale market for the R.  Either way, both are a hoot to ride.  YMMV

[Kootenanny]

The pods, while not amazing... are not a real aesthetic problem.   (Therefore not the reason for Buell's untimely demise.)[/img]

Yes, exactly.  There may be any number of reasons the 1125s didn't sell well; the aesthetics of the pods are not solely to blame for it, nor are they to blame for Buell's demise.  (I mean, look at a V-Strom--fugly as sin, and not a particularly great bike either, but somehow they still sell.)  From an engineering standpoint, the pods and the side-mounted radiators they cover make a lot of sense.

I can think of other bikes which have sold poorly, but haven't killed the maker.  Buell was killed by H-D corporate, for reasons we may never know (but I expect the extreme beating their financial division was taking had a lot to do with it--as I understand it, by killing Buell, they could write off a whole lotta taxes, which helps keep H=D as a whole treading water).

[steve.m]

  

You compare a bike that has been selling for over ten years and started a movement,  I hope that a company would make changes over that many years.

Buells 1125 was not innovation, it was the old bike with new engines and water hanging off the sides like old lady boobs. It's the bike that killed them.  It was the bad press. Their waffles were blame on reliability.   It took nearly a year and a half to realize the metric system and the standard system are different.
501




Brad...as a marketing executive, you've spoken as an authority that Buell fuc*ked up.  As an engineer, i feel they did there best in a niche market.  what exactly do you market that you speak with such authority on the issue?  honestly, i'm curious, not trolling.  I can say that the 1125 was well designed for an initial product run.  FAR better than an IPOD or any other electronic device in recent years.  Hell...look at all the recalls in the past week.  The Buell is not outside the norm.  Specifically what market is your focus on?

[Brad1445]

A parent company of 14 companies all in the transportation industry from consumer level to Class 8, and manufacturing of service bodies,tool trucks etc, to mention a few.

I do not speak only of Buell from a Business standpoint. but more importantly a total CONSUMER, who bought and loved 5 great Buells.  Then this consumer watched them apparently intently sabotage themselves with string after string of silly .

If they had done some focus groups, they would have found they have a product that had little consumer appealing aesthetics.  If they had listened to the press they let ride the bikes before release, they would have delayed its intro until it could actually  run.

A house wife does not need to be a mechanic to know when her transmission if acting subpar.

It does not take a Motorcycle Manufacture to recognize a Huge motorcycle failure.  
A customer can do it, as so many did.

[macdiver]

I can think of other bikes which have sold poorly, but haven't killed the maker.  Buell was killed by H-D corporate, for reasons we may never know (but I expect the extreme beating their financial division was taking had a lot to do with it--as I understand it, by killing Buell, they could write off a whole lotta taxes, which helps keep H=D as a whole treading water).

We have a winner.  By most reports. Buell had steadily increased sales till the economy dropped out  and they were posed to due well when people started buying bikes again.  Harley took a huge loss on loans.  HD did not sell loans on the market and held all the paper.   HD needed to do something to help stay in business so they shut Buell.  Gives them some tax write offs and "shows" the investors that management is "taking action".  

Much to Brad's dismay, none of the reports, interviews, etc does anyone mention that the pods or even the fuelling issues killed Buell.

[bomber]

Brad you may be a marketing exec, but your posts have spurned fanboy written all over them . . . . . they started as mildly amusing, passed into annoying, but are now just a sign of some form lack in your life.

Odd, for someone who claims to be so angry with a company to devote so much of your energy to it.

[Tpoppa]

In the last few years Buells growth outpaced HDs.  The reasons Buell went away had more to do with HD 'circling the wagons,' to keep themselves afloat.  Check the latest quote and ratings on HOG stock if you need proof.

I still think it's odd that Brad has never actually ridden an 1125, yet he believes he is an expert on the subject    Seriously, If he had a some seat time, then decided the 1125 missed its mark, I might actually think he had some credibility.

As someone who rides sportbikes near their handling limits...If I had the chance to rethink my purchase, I would buy my 1125R again in a heartbeat!!.

[chornbe]

I still think it's odd that Brad has never actually ridden an 1125, yet he believes he is an expert on the subject    Seriously, If he had a some seat time, then decided the 1125 missed its mark, I might actually think he had some credibility.

I agree with this sentiment. Can you teach that trick to Harley bashers, touring bike bashers, sport-touring bike bashers, sport bike bashers... basically EVERYONE... too?

As someone who rides sportbikes near their handling limits...If I had the chance to rethink my purchase, I would buy my 1125R again in a heartbeat!!.

I think the 1125 platform had real potential.

For those bitching about the niggling issues, how many people *still* complain of Hondas blowing regulators, of BMWs stalling inexplicably, of Ducatis warping rotors, of... well, you get the point. EVERY product has issues to iron out. Hell, in 20 YEARS Kawasaki couldn't make the Concours brake better and stop buzzing people into numbness.

[st ryder]

A good portion of this thead is laughable.  This notion that introducing new models is waffling is ridiculios.  I blame the educational system.

Consider the Ducati Monster.  The original Monster was a 904cc machine.  Ducati told us that was the one to buy.  Now, how many times has Ducati 'waffled' on the displacement?  

600
620
695
696
800
900
904
992
996
1100
etc.
I mean seriously, can we even trust Ducati anymore?  

It's called product development.  I'm just glad that Brad was able to post the pic of the black pod for the 500th time.

You miss the point. Don't cofuse the development and evolution of the Monster with Buell bikes. Don't confuse the maker with the designer. Find me one interview in which Miguel Galluzzi waxes on about the advantages of air cooling over liquid cooling when all Ducati was offering was air cooled Monsters, *followed up* by an interview in which he states he wanted liquid cooling all along after Ducati introduces water cooled Monsters. *THAT* would be waffling in the context I'm describing. Miguel's statements about the Monster were simply that all one needed was a seat, an engine, wheels and handle bars. He does not carry on about how he purposely picked air cooled engines because he felt they were better all round *performers*: it was simplicity he was after, and little more.  

Since you want to discuss Buell's first race bike, why not also state that beside it being a British l/c smoker, it also missed the mark and was never produced in great numbers. The HD engine became the engine of choice because it was expedient, not better. The marketing that followed was simply a good hood winking job IMO. Your thoughts on the matter of Buell's sincerity/credibility may differ, but mine will not waiver: EB is spun IMO.   The pods on the 1125r prove it. Who is his right mind would sign off on those monstrosities?  

[Brad1445]

......

Much to Brad's dismay, none of the reports, interviews, etc does anyone mention that the pods or even the fuelling issues killed Buell.

No, just every single magazines review.

The pods or just an outward sign of a far more serious ailment. Like a sore on a person with leprosy. Pods did not kill the 1125 alone but in turned made it a easy decision to kill Buell.

The 1125's were selling at a rate less than a Ulysses, a much smaller market segment.  I owned one of those too FYI.

A water cooled Buell had huge pent up demand and should have been able to out sell the demand of a 3 year old design.  The lightning was still the number one Buell seller, a 5 year old design at the time.

So within the shrunken market due to the economy the votes were not on the 1125 on a scale that should would have been anticipated.  I was one one of those.

As a loyal Buell customer I was first on the waiting list for the new Dream bike (1125) at Sun Honda Denver. When it arrived,  I took one look at the creation walked across the floor and bought a new blue and white 2008 Firebolt that was my 5th new Buell.

The humorously large fairing attached to the thin 2003 Firebolt tail was a real eye brow raiser that demonstrated this was a parts bin bike.  Not a comprehensive new design.  This proves out to this day as even the newest builds are still reporting problems.

Rotax

[Brad1445]

........

I still think it's odd that Brad has never actually ridden an 1125, ......

As a lover of V-Twins, Belt drive I have no doubt its a fun bike.  I just don't have the time to keep bringing it back and forth to the dealer why they continue to finishing development.

Buell makes the best handling bikes similar to Ducati.  I have no doubt the 1125 would not fall in line similar to the XB Bikes in the fun factor.

It has been proven to many that it could not be  a bike trusted on a trip as after you shut it off you were not confident it would restart.  Extremely common problem in 2008 and to a lesser extent today.  I like bikes that work, why is that so hard to understand.  I hate taking time to go to dealers, if your retired, enjoy.  I passed.

[Brad1445]

Brad you may be a marketing exec, but your posts have spurned fanboy written all over them . . . . . they started as mildly amusing, passed into annoying, but are now just a sign of some form lack in your life.

Odd, for someone who claims to be so angry with a company to devote so much of your energy to it.

And I feel flattered you are devoting your time to me.

[Tpoppa]

The pods or just an outward sign of a far more serious ailment. Like a person ...

...who completely lacks the ability to move on with his life.

[bomber]

And I feel flattered you are devoting your time to me.

Wasn't my intent, but if that makes you feel flattered, go ahead on.

[chornbe]

See? now doesn't that feel better? Next think you know, County and I are going to be agreeing on light bikes. Sheesh.

[bomber]

Thanks, Dad -- I'll go get Wally so you can talk to him, too!

;-}

[chornbe]

Thanks, Dad -- I'll go get Wally so you can talk to him, too!

;-}

I went easy on the beaver.  

[Brad1445]

...who completely lacks the ability to move on with his life.

Sad but True as a christian I rarely want retaliation , but I really would like to  see the idiots that pushed this crappy bike through punished.  They effected may other peoples lives.

Even dogs come across food they won't eat every now and then.

Take some pride in your work.

The topic thread os quite pertinent to this discussion was it an accident or intentional?

[bomber]

Sad but True as a christian I rarely want retaliation , but I really would like to  see the idiots that pushed this crappy bike through punished.  

Very Old Testament.

Is forgivness next?

[Spiffious]

Brad is a witch-trials christian cheering on as Buell is burned at the stake.

[chornbe]

awesome... now we've brought religion into it.

[Brad1445]

Brad is a witch-trials christian cheering on as Buell is burned at the stake.

lol, thats pretty close!

[Spiffious]

lol, thats pretty close!

lol

[Jake Harsha]

One more time...for Brad.

[desert_rider]

 

[Brad1445]

One more time...for Brad.

I also had this dream the other night.  

[falconati]

Any of you guys work?  

[Tpoppa]

Lunatics are running the (chrome and leather) asylum.

[Brad1445]

I think the picture is the only factual thing in that article, and a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Tpoppa]

I think the picture is the only factual thing in that article, and a picture is worth a thousand words.

The article is from Australian Motorcycel News, which is known to be a credible publication.

 

[Brad1445]

It reads like an opinion piece  or at best http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

Makes no difference,   New Buell was not selling still some available at half price now Buell is dead.

Game over man, game over.

If everyone bashing Harley now had bought the ugly thing they would still be in business.

as the lord said, turn the other pod  That's not really factual but either is that article.

[macdiver]

Brad

Do you have inside information that says BRP was not trying to buy Buell.  If not how can you say the article is not true.  Just because you did not like the pod does not mean that you know what was going on behind the scenes when Harley closed Buell.

To your previous quote of my previous post.  NO magazine article blames the pod for shutting down Buell.  Everything I read says it was because HD was losing millions on bad loans combined with a poor sales of HD bikes as well as Buells.  A member of this board also hinted at some personal bad blood between Willie G and Erik as being part of the decision.  Nothing I've read says it was the pods or the 1125.  Please link the articles that say the pods killed Buell.  You are the only one singing that tune.  Time for a new song.  

[Spiffious]

Brad

Do you have inside information that says BRP was not trying to buy Buell.  If not how can you say the article is not true.  Just because you did not like the pod does not mean that you know what was going on behind the scenes when Harley closed Buell.

To your previous quote of my previous post.  NO magazine article blames the pod for shutting down Buell.  Everything I read says it was because HD was losing millions on bad loans combined with a poor sales of HD bikes as well as Buells.  A member of this board also hinted at some personal bad blood between Willie G and Erik as being part of the decision.  Nothing I've read says it was the pods or the 1125.  Please link the articles that say the pods killed Buell.  You are the only one singing that tune.  Time for a new song.  

Actually, the pods were merely the cause of Brad's insanity.  He actually has lots of photos, creepy drawings, magazing clippings, etc. of pods pasted all over his bedroom.    

[Tpoppa]

Actually, the pods were merely the cause of Brad's insanity.  He actually has lots of photos, creepy drawings, magazing clippings, etc. of pods pasted all over his bedroom.    

True story.

[Tpoppa]

Actually, Erik was known to be in Canada during that time period.  It was speculated that he was meeting with the folks at BRP, but that info was not made public for obvious reasons.  This article is confirmation.

If I owned HOG stock, I would demand some answers:
--Harley spent over $125 million to shutter Buell.  
--If they would have GIVEN Buell away they could still had a tax write off and saved $125 million.
--In addition to BRP, there was at least on other group that attempted to purchase Buell (google it).
--HD then needed to borrow over $500 million from the gov't.

I think HD was afraid they would look like bumbling idiots (more so than they do already) if Buell would have been sucessful with the HD dealership and marketing roadblocks out of the way.

HD markets heavily on being a pro-AMERICA, AMERICAN company.  Seems they could have saved over 180 AMERICAN JOBS with very little effort.

Since this all happened, I have heard many riders with no previous Buell love, say they will never buy a HD product.  HD may have just created a lot of new fans...for Victory.  

[chornbe]

Since this all happened, I have heard many riders with no previous Buell love, say they will never buy a HD product.  HD may have just created a lot of new fans...for Victory.  

We'll see... people like to *talk* about voting with their wallets... not many (not enough?) seem to actually do it.

[Tpoppa]

We'll see... people like to *talk* about voting with their wallets... not many (not enough?) seem to actually do it.

That could be true.  Time will tell.

I always thought that the anti-Buell bias held by many sportbike riders was an extension of the 'Power Ranger/Village People Fued' that has been around for years.  It seemed when HD blindsided Buell, Buell suddenly had alot more fans.

Read Badweb.  There's about 18,000 riders of American motorcycles there that won't be buying a HD anytime soon.

[Spiffious]

That could be true.  Time will tell.

I always thought that the anti-Buell bias held by many sportbike riders was an extension of the 'Power Ranger/Village People Fued' that has been around for years.  It seemed when HD blindsided Buell, Buell suddenly had alot more fans.

Read Badweb.  There's about 18,000 riders of American motorcycles there that won't be buying a HD anytime soon.

actually, I think you're right.  People associated Buell with HD....  HD haters had trouble accepting buell.   Buell being dropped has indeed separated Buell's image from HD.

[chornbe]

I'm not poo-pooing the idea. I just know that lots of people "run home to mama" (metaphor meaning stick with what you know) when it comes time to plunk down the $$$.

[Tpoppa]

The most damaging part of the HD realtionship was by far the dealerships, and I'm not bashing the dealerships.  It just the reality of the motorcycle market.

How many poeple who are looking for a sportbike or adventure bike, go to a HD dealer?  How many people who were looking for a Road King wind up buying a Firebolt?  The answer to both questions is VERY FEW.  Most people who bought Buells were specifically looking for a Buell.

What if Buell was sold next to Ducati and Triumph?  Alot more sportbike friendly asses would have sat on Buells and more would have been sold.  The Lightnings and CR's would have pulled sales from Monsters & Speed Triples.  The Ulysses could have competed directly with the Tiger and Multistrada.  Etc, Etc.  Sales are a function of traffic, anyone with a sales or marketing background can tell you that.

HD was never on a mission to sell Buells, they saw Buell as a way to get younger buyers into showrooms to eventually buy Harleys.  Fact.  This all supports the fact that HD and Buell were not a good fit.  HD should had sold Buell.  Closing Buell was a very shortsighted decision, made by people who do not understand the sportbike market.  

A successful Buell, free of HD, would have made HD look like a bunch of old guys with even less appeal to younger riders.  

[Brad1445]

Brad

Do you have inside information that says BRP was not trying to buy Buell.  If not how can you say the article is not true.  Just because you did not like the pod does not mean that you know what was going on behind the scenes when Harley closed Buell.

To your previous quote of my previous post.  NO magazine article blames the pod for shutting down Buell.  Everything I read says it was because HD was losing millions on bad loans combined with a poor sales of HD bikes as well as Buells.  A member of this board also hinted at some personal bad blood between Willie G and Erik as being part of the decision.  Nothing I've read says it was the pods or the 1125.  Please link the articles that say the pods killed Buell.  You are the only one singing that tune.  Time for a new song.  

I don't care if you disagree with me.  I would have fired Erik immediately after the 2008 failed launch.

You obviously don't read my post.  The pod's are a metaphor of a much larger problem.  The bike was crap, and is crap.  The pods are just the most obvious outward sign of a don't car mentality.  I go to bad web everyday, you can watch as the loyal customers pop up saying something went wrong with their new bike, and then get flamed off the board,  

The Buell community was a tight knit community until the premature release of the 1125.  the dream bike we were waiting for.  Buell's lack of development and quality control tarnished the name beyond repair.  

There still out there if you think they are such a good bike you can have one for $5,000, but they are still plenty sitting.

Harley is right not to sell the technology that their dollars allowed to be developed.  I hope they take this time to get it right and re-release a line of high quality sport bikes under the Harley name.

Eric Buell is a engineer and someone let him off the leash for he 1125 thinking it should be a no brainer he had no business since. Should not have been making any calls.

How else do you manage to mess up the combing of great handling bikes with a world class motor?  Well Buell did?
Hopefully Harley will get it right by keeping Erik in his little playroom trying to get clutch fluid to stop shooting out the side of the bike.

1- Great handling bike
+
1 - great engine
=
1 - 1125r POS

I have had 4 ducati's and 5 Buells, I love twins, but what is the market place supposed to do with this???



Crying for Buells closing is  just a new way to Harley bash, put your money where your mouth is.  Go buy one.
Bunch of hypocrites that never liked Buell before and few owners trying to protect their value and self esteem for the two wheeled Edsel.

[Tpoppa]

Perhaps if you actually rode one, you would have some credibility.  But you haven't...

The 1125CR beth the Ducati Streetfighter in a Head to Head comparo.  Doesn't sound like crap to me.
http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_0912_buell_1125cr_ducati_streetfighter_comparison_test/index.html

Go invest ALL your money in HD now that they are free of Buell.  Let me know how it works out.  

[Spiffious]

Perhaps if you actually rode one, you would have some credibility.  But you haven't...

The 1125CR beth the Ducati Streetfighter in a Head to Head comparo.  Doesn't sound like crap to me.
http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_0912_buell_1125cr_ducati_streetfighter_comparison_test/index.html

Go invest ALL your money in HD now that they are free of Buell.  Let me know how it works out.  

 

Test Rode many Buells... always felt mixed about the 1200 lump, though I did start to "get it."   Then I rode the 2008 1125r.  "wow! this thing is fest, feels great! Engine's a bit course though..."   Then I demo'd the 2009 1125CR.  "Holy crap, this thing is even better!  Engine feels smoother too!".   Then I demo'd a 1200 bike and was promptly underwhelmed.   Then I bought an 1125cr.

You have no credibility without the seat time.

[Brad1445]

I have no doubt the 1125 is a fun ride, there is the pain, a great bike with poor build quality and ugly looks.  A bike that could have made people rally to but an American assembled

I think i'll wait on the Harley stock until it reaches bottom.   I try to remain pragmatic. For instance I would buy a 1125r for about $1,000.00 as a track bike.

[Brad1445]

You have no credibility without the seat time.

Does owning $$$ five (5) count for any Buell experience?

[Spiffious]

Does owning $$$ five (5) count for any Buell experience?

No.  None of them were 1125's.


EDIT:  Buell experience; Yes.   But you don't talk about 'Buell.'   You talk about 1125's which you've never ridden.

[chornbe]

You have no credibility without the seat time.

May I quote this in every harley bashing thread?  

[desert_rider]

Harley is right not to sell the technology that their dollars allowed to be developed.  I hope they take this time to get it right and re-release a line of high quality sport bikes under the Harley name.

Not.

Gonna.

Happen.

[chornbe]

Not.

Gonna.

Happen.

Agreed. I fail to understand why people hold onto this pipedream.

[Spiffious]

May I quote this in every harley bashing thread?  

I'd say you should!  My harley bashing is based on real experience.    

[Tpoppa]

Agreed. I fail to understand why people hold onto this pipedream.

+1

[Brad1445]

No.  None of them were 1125's.


EDIT:  Buell experience; Yes.   But you don't talk about 'Buell.'   You talk about 1125's which you've never ridden.

Too ugly to be taken serious.
Imagine of you ordered a BLT in a restaurant, and when they brought it up it had curly fries sticking out the sides, you would be scared to try it too. That would be a warning sign that something was wrong in the kitchen. People just throwing crap together.

The 1125 has that same something is wrong look.  looked like they went into the back room and mixed a bunch of parts together over one weekend.  Why is the fairing the size of a Buick.  Did the Rotax engine not deserve a new fully designed body worthy of its heritage.

Then the reliability reports made it a non starter. No pun intended.  

 

[Tpoppa]

Too ugly to be taken serious.
Imagine of you ordered a BLT in a restaurant, and when they brought it up it had curly fries sticking out the sides, you would be scared to try it too. That would be a warning sign that something was wrong in the kitchen. People just throwing crap together.

The 1125 has that same something is wrong look.  looked like they went into the back room and mixed a bunch of parts together over one weekend.  Why is the fairing the size of a Buick.  Did the Rotax engine not deserve a new fully designed body worthy of its heritage.

Then the reliability reports made it a non starter. No pun intended.  

As someone who has never ridden one, all you are qualified to comment on is looks.  Which happens to be the most poser-ish aspect of motorcycling.  Maybe an OCC Chopper is more your speed.

XBs are super fun street bikes, 1125s have improved handling and MUCH more power.  

It takes a big man to admit he's wrong, isn't that right little man

[Brad1445]

As someone who has never ridden one, all you are qualified to comment on is looks.  Which happens to be the most poser-ish aspect of motorcycling.  Maybe an OCC Chopper is more your speed.

XBs are super fun street bikes, 1125s have improved handling and MUCH more power.  

It takes a big man to admit he's wrong, isn't that right little man

Poser?  I ride 30-40k every year.

Admit I'm wrong, Nope I feel my Judgment selling my 08 Buell after they brought the same 1125 series out for a third year was very smart.

It saved me thousands of dollars and weeks and trips and days and days at the shop.
The future of Buell "my favorite manufacture" was clearly at a dead end when they neglected the market forces that require a attractive reliable affordable machine.

Buell lost their way, It will likely end up in college curriculums as a case study how ego's and poor judgment can kill a company that had wind in its sails.

I will miss Buell greatly, but yes I do have anger that a company can be that stupid.  If they dont all smoke pot at lunch time, I will never understand how a bike that looks that goofy and ran that poorly was released for production, then left out hanging for three  to die.  

Wht were people not fired in 2008 when this thing tanked at lunch?

[wbrisett]

 I will never understand how a bike that looks that goofy and ran that poorly was released for production, then left out hanging for three  to die.  

Looks are all in the eyes of the beholder. I loved the looks of the 1125CR from the first time I saw it. A lot of people say the Uly looks goofy too, but I won't be giving mine up any time soon because it's such a great handling bike. For the record, my 1125CR runs great, and there are a lot of people who will disagree with you Brad on both looks and quality/handling of the 1125s; I'm in that camp as well.

[Tpoppa]

Of the 20+ bikes I have owned, my 1125R may not be the best looking of the bunch, but it is the most fun to ride.  Also, it has been quite reliable.

Personally, I think all Advenbure bikes are ugly as sin...GS, Uly, Tiger, Multistrada, etc, all ugly...but here is the big difference...I don't endlessly complain about their looks.  I understand function over form, and I'm not a whiner.

[chornbe]

Of the 20+ bikes I have owned, my 1125R may not be the best looking of the bunch, but it is the most fun to ride.  Also, it has been quite reliable.

Personally, I think all Advenbure bikes are ugly as sin...GS, Uly, Tiger, Multistrada, etc, all ugly...but here is the big difference...I don't endlessly complain about their looks.  I understand function over form, and I'm not a whiner.

  Agreed! _{(says the guy with Givis on a ratty looking Sportster)}

[Brad1445]

Well I have had two Hayabusa's, so I guess I too break the ugly Rule, and my Ulysses was the funnest bike I have ever owned.  I would buy one today if I did not have a fear of parts.  If Harley does bring back the bikes.  I'll be first in line.

[wbrisett]

my Ulysses was the funnest bike I have ever owned.  I would buy one today if I did not have a fear of parts.

In my opinion, (well isn't everything we post?), the issue isn't parts but accessories. I'm already amazed at what you can't get anymore because HD considered it an accessory.

Wayne

[steve.m]

Too ugly to be taken serious.
Imagine of you ordered a BLT in a restaurant, and when they brought it up it had curly fries sticking out the sides, you would be scared to try it too. That would be a warning sign that something was wrong in the kitchen. People just throwing crap together.

The 1125 has that same something is wrong look.  looked like they went into the back room and mixed a bunch of parts together over one weekend.  Why is the fairing the size of a Buick.  Did the Rotax engine not deserve a new fully designed body worthy of its heritage.

Then the reliability reports made it a non starter. No pun intended.  



 

BLT with curley fries?    Sounds like something went horribly RIGHT in the kitchen.  

In my opinion, (well isn't everything we post?), the issue isn't parts but accessories. I'm already amazed at what you can't get anymore because HD considered it an accessory.

Wayne

Can you elaborate?  What does HD consider an "accessory" that should be a supported part?

[Brad1445]

BLT with curley fries?    Sounds like something went horribly RIGHT in the kitchen.  



Can you elaborate?  What does HD consider an "accessory" that should be a supported part?

One thing I read was the high bars for the 09 1125CR since low bars were standard.

[wbrisett]

Can you elaborate?  What does HD consider an "accessory" that should be a supported part?

Actually, I'll refer you to BadWeb for that since there are lists for various bikes over there already. But pretty much anything that was in the accessory catalog is gone, things like the soft luggage for Uly and any of the other bags (tank bag, stow-away bag), the high bars for the CR are also pretty much gone from what people have posted.

Wayne

[Bueller]

High bars are standard on the 2010 CR.  They have to keep supplying them.

The non accessory accessories are things like frame puck kits, heated hand grip kits, comfort kits, black lever kits, XT windshield kits

[steve.m]

hopefully i wont ever drop mine and scuff anything up    although i suppose if that were to happen scratches would be the least of my worries...and stickers could help a lot  

[wbrisett]

High bars are standard on the 2010 CR.  They have to keep supplying them.

The non accessory accessories are things like frame puck kits, heated hand grip kits, comfort kits, black lever kits, XT windshield kits

While High Bars are standard for the 2010, try getting them. They are on B/O with no date set on getting more. That doesn't mean they won't, just means things are very constrained. In fact some of the online HD ordering houses aren't even taking orders for the high bars. That really has folks scratching their heads. I have no clue what's going on there, but it can't be good.

Hell, maybe Brad is smarter than any of us gave him credit for by getting rid of his Buell. ...  Nah... We can't agree with him.  

[chornbe]

While High Bars are standard for the 2010, try getting them. They are on B/O with no date set on getting more. That doesn't mean they won't, just means things are very constrained. In fact some of the online HD ordering houses aren't even taking orders for the high bars. That really has folks scratching their heads. I have no clue what's going on there, but it can't be good.

Hell, maybe Brad is smarter than any of us gave him credit for by getting rid of his Buell. ...  Nah... We can't agree with him.  

Would I sound like a ship-jumping asshole if I suggested that these issues factored into my decision to not buy the Ulie after all? 'cause they did, at least a little bit.

[steve.m]

i've been out of the loop too long.  you did NOT buy the uly?  wtf mate!  if you think bars are a problem, just swing by a bmx shop, they're the same damn thing  

seriously though, you're a poser for getting the guzzi, first a gay pirate and now a capachino sipping, luis vuitton wearing, guzzi riding POSER!!!    

[chornbe]

i've been out of the loop too long.  you did NOT buy the uly?  wtf mate!  if you think bars are a problem, just swing by a bmx shop, they're the same damn thing  

seriously though, you're a poser for getting the guzzi, first a gay pirate and now a capachino sipping, luis vuitton wearing, guzzi riding POSER!!!    

Sputo sulla tomba del vostro asino dell'animale domestico di infanzia!  

[steve.m]

Sputo sulla tomba del vostro asino dell'animale domestico di infanzia!  

babelfish translation - Sputum on the tomba of your ass dell' domestic animal of infancy  

jeebus man, you're already speaking italian???

[chornbe]

hahahahaah

I spit on the grave of your childhood pet donkey.  

If you ever hear me talking like Orson or 'Skew about the virtues of the Guzzi above all and everything, you have my permission to kick over my Sportster.

[steve.m]

hahahahaah

I spit on the grave of your childhood pet donkey.  

If you ever hear me talking like Orson or 'Skew about the virtues of the Guzzi above all and everything, you have my permission to kick over my Sportster.

having never ridden a guzzi, i can't speak from experience, but if i'm going to get something quirky with hard to find parts...it better be american  

and for anyone who cares, I decided to follow up on the BLT with curley fries...

 

needless to say it was incredible...i also buttered and pan toasted the bread.  the fries were spicy.

brad, suck my left nut after I run stairs in 120 degree heat...if you think the above sandwich is a bad idea, i hereby revoke your man-card.  for that matter, relating the above sandwich to a motorcycle further negates anything you say from this point forward about any and all things man (including motorcycles).  you may proceed with your chardonnay drinking, lean cuisine eating ways.  

[Brad1445]

 



having never ridden a guzzi, i can't speak from experience, but if i'm going to get something quirky with hard to find parts...it better be american  

and for anyone who cares, I decided to follow up on the BLT with curley fries...

 

needless to say it was incredible...i also buttered and pan toasted the bread.  the fries were spicy.

brad, suck my left nut after I run stairs in 120 degree heat...if you think the above sandwich is a bad idea, i hereby revoke your man-card.  for that matter, relating the above sandwich to a motorcycle further negates anything you say from this point forward about any and all things man (including motorcycles).  you may proceed with your chardonnay drinking, lean cuisine eating ways.  

OK pretend your order your BLT, and they bring out a Peanut Butter and mayonnaise sandwich?  YOu might question that one?

[desert_rider]

 
and for anyone who cares, I decided to follow up on the BLT with curley fries...

 

needless to say it was incredible...i also buttered and pan toasted the bread.  the fries were spicy.

 

[steve.m]

OK pretend your order your BLT, and they bring out a Peanut Butter and mayonnaise sandwich?  YOu might question that one?

There's certain lengths I won't go to to proove you wrong...bravo sir  

and desert rider...just make it yourself man, it's worth it!!