Harley Is Doomed (article)

[Grumbler]

According to this article, Harley-Davidson Incorporated,
the iconic American motorcycle manufacturer is doomed.
FYI. FWIW. YMMV. WTF.

http://www.agingrebel.com/?p=2740

[falconati]

I severely doubt that.

[atadaskew]

Ummm, rrright.

For a second I thought that this would be an article from a legit source, like Wall St Journal, Business Week, The Economist.  

But it's from an internet site called Agingrebel.

Well, I guess because it's on the internet it must be true.

[chornbe]

More of the same rhetoric.

I'm getting tired of hearing from the leather and chrome "faithful" crowd about how Harley has turned their back on the "people who made them who they are" and have pandered to the yuppies. Maybe Harley has, maybe they haven't. But what they *have* done is something that darned few companies (not just motorcycle companies) have been able to do; build a brand that is, quite literally, an American Icon and that speaks to many people. If you owned a company that sold a premium-priced product that stands out (for better or worse) in a sea of ubiquity and "me too" products, would you really want to build your brand loyalty on guys living in rabbit hutches and making $20K^[1] a year and skipping rent payments to pay for a motorcycle that is largely considered a toy? Yeah, maybe Harley - the business entity selling products to people who want to buy them - did embrace and focus on doctors and lawyers and enable the good boys to foster bad-boy images. They're the guys with money.

I left a comment. Whatever.





_{[1] - and that's not meant to offend. Peoples' salaries are all over the place and there are competitive products at every price point. Toyota and Chevy sell lots of lower-priced products to people who can't, or don't wish to afford a Benz or BMW. Harley couldn't produce a sub-$10k touring or sport bike if they tried really hard. Other companies who do so can't seem to build a decent cruiser or tourer. Every maker has their good and bad points.}

[mugwump58]

 

[atadaskew]

 

You missed a spot.

[scottzilla]

Nope, it's true.  This time, they are doomed.

[Geoff]

If Harley goes away, who will the Japs clone?  

[Fourstring]

Quoted from the article:

Don’t let people kid you. The first two decades after the Second World War were a great time. At least compared to now.

I think that depends on who you ask.

[desert_rider]

From one of the replies to the article:

"I’m not a fucking sheep with a million dollars to spend on a fantasy I ride from bar to bar on weekends or trailer to Sturgis."

 

[atadaskew]

Quoted from the article:



I think that depends on who you ask.

Whitey.
Straight whitey....
 

[bomber]

Just out of curiosity, I checked the site -- as is my custom, I clicked on "About." If I'm going to spend more than 30 seconds reading some pundit, I like to get an idea of why the writing (blog, poscast, video) is worth my time.

And I quote

"About
The Aging Rebel has lived what cynics call an “interesting” life that has included writing for two newspapers.

He was hired by a daily in Massachusetts by mistake when he applied for a job on the loading dock. And, he was fired from another paper in Indiana when, as his Editor put it, that fine journal decided “to project an image of professionalism and respectability.”

He has also been fired from jobs at magazines and has unsuccessfully pursued careers as an autoworker, laborer, ditch digger, warehouseman, window maker, house framer, art forger, novelist and telephone salesman.

Because he loves children, he has always done his best to keep the world from running out of a babies. And, because he loves women he is usually married. Generally unemployed, he likes motorcycles and lifting weights and his ambitions include winning the lottery. Some people say he now lives, more or less, in El Lay.

You may berate, threaten, mock or even compliment him at rebel@agingrebel.com"


First rule, for me, referring to yourself in anything but the first person, unless you are a 13 year old girl writing about vampires in your diary, is a tip off you've got issues.

Perhaps a subscription.

Second, listing what some would call failures as the entirety of your credibility doesn't make me want to learn more.

Third -- for someone who seems to write about motorcycles often -- they don't really seem to come up much, in a first person sorta way.

Fail.

I'm sure others will hang on his every word.

[chornbe]

The comments on that site are... uhm... well, some of them are flat out dumb.

[atadaskew]

Fail.

I'm sure others will hang on his every word.

And will point to his prattling as some kind of gospel proof fueling their sad hope that Harley will disappear.

[st ryder]

From one of the replies to the article:

"I’m not a fucking sheep with a million dollars to spend on a fantasy I ride from bar to bar on weekends or trailer to Sturgis."

 

Oh, a comment from "the other half." How droll.

[Gsam]

They're not doomed ,the goverment will bail them out with our tax dollars. ( gm & chrysler )

[Connierider]

They're not doomed ,the goverment will bail them out with our tax dollars. ( gm & chrysler )

They have already recieved bailout money.
And to the cloning, hasn't been done yet. HD lost that suit when they got the trade tariff on the 80's.

[chornbe]

This thread is spiraling from stupid to fucking idiotic.

[falconati]

Location: South Carolina.

[atadaskew]

Well, Motorcyclist magazine  (Catterson) is in on the act too.  Mentioning Harley is screwed unless they offer something to appeal to the kids.  Uses the Honda Fury's disastrous sales as evidence that the 'chopper' market is gone.. (ignoring the fact that it is crap).  
Conveniently NOT mentioning that those mfgs that are producing bikes that appeal to the kids, are doing much much worse. (Honda's NA sales off by 48%).

[Grumbler]

I personally think that if the MoFoCo offered a basic FLH without the touring
goodies for $12,999 it'd probably sell like crazy. It'd look like a stripped RK
albeit with nicer looking side covers.

Have seen a Dyna with a complete stock FLH front end, and it didn't work out
too well. Those forks are too big and heavy for the slim Dyna chassis.

Wouldn't hurt for Harley to design a longer, lower, and more comfortable chassis
with better rear shocks for the Sportster range. However, they probably don't
want to take sales away from the Dyna models.

[Geoff]

Well, Motorcyclist magazine  (Catterson) is in on the act too.  Mentioning Harley is screwed unless they offer something to appeal to the kids.  Uses the Honda Fury's disastrous sales as evidence that the 'chopper' market is gone.. (ignoring the fact that it is crap).  
Conveniently NOT mentioning that those mfgs that are producing bikes that appeal to the kids, are doing much much worse. (Honda's NA sales off by 48%).

Catterson is ignorant of all but Ducati.  

[st ryder]

If Harley goes away, who will the Japs clone?  

That's a good question.  

[st ryder]

...Wouldn't hurt for Harley to design a longer, lower, and more comfortable chassis
with better rear shocks for the Sportster range. However, they probably don't
want to take sales away from the Dyna models.

That *is* a Dyna.

[chornbe]

That *is* a Dyna.

+1

With the big twin torque monster.  

[Grumbler]

That *is* a Dyna.

Maybe so, but the Sportster is a lighter motorcycle. Since they don't make
the XL1200R anymore, I compared the XL1200L with the FXD, and noticed
the wet weight of Sportster is 82-lbs less.

The current Sportsters have shortie shocks. Might as well be struts given
how harsh they are. Also, the Sportsters have unit construction engine so
that results in a more compact motorcycle. They don't have that big mofo
primary sticking out like a fat ass wearing a G-string. LOL!

Let me ask this. If you put two equally skilled riders on the XL1200R and
FXDB (has the highest ground clearance in Big Twin range) and had them
haul ass on some delicious twisties for one hour, which one would arrive
at the cafe first?

[chornbe]

Maybe so, but the Sportster is a lighter motorcycle. Since they don't make
the XL1200R anymore, I compared the XL1200L with the FXD, and noticed
the wet weight of Sportster is 82-lbs less.

The current Sportsters have shortie shocks. Might as well be struts given
how harsh they are. Also, the Sportsters have unit construction engine so
that results in a more compact motorcycle. They don't have that big mofo
primary sticking out like a fat ass wearing a G-string. LOL!

Let me ask this. If you put two equally skilled riders on the XL1200R and
FXDB (has the highest ground clearance in Big Twin range) and had them
haul ass on some delicious twisties for one hour, which one would arrive
at the cafe first?

See, now this is the fun kinda bench racing... gritty bikes with real differences, unlike the "me too" sport bikes whose performance envelopes are so nearly identical so as not to matter on the street.  


I can get my sportster around some turns pretty darned swiftly. I think BOTH bikes need tire and fork attention before trying to do what you're suggesting. The stock tires suck. There's just no other way to say it. Put some GT501s or 502s on them, or some Perelli Sport Demons and you've got a seriously grippy bike, then.

All things being equal... that's a tough call.

The Dyna has some edge in power... It's got a hell of a lot more up top, the midrange is ALL there, all the time, and it'll do OK in a turn. It's got wicked stiff forks compared to the stocker 39mm Sportster (I presume we're completely discounting the XR1200 here). It's heavier and it's larger in every dimension. The two-piece engine/trans plus the external primary does add bulk and spreads the mass out a bit.

The Sportster has a shorter wheel base (yet more front-back passenger room than my 'Glide did - go figure), is lighter, but it suffers from far less top-end power. The "R" versions have dual-disc brakes that have a level of modulation sophistication that the single-disc bikes just don't have (the single-disc brake bikes are closer to on-off than having lots of modulation), so you can trail in longer and hotter. It'll toss in quicker, but again, coming out of the turn, the dyna's gonna have the edge on windup punch. The "L" model (and all the current Sportsters) suffers from a severely lowered suspension, front and rear and things scrape far earlier than they need to.

It'd be a fun run. I'd love to give it a whirl.  

[st ryder]

Let me ask this. If you put two equally skilled riders on the XL1200R and
FXDB (has the highest ground clearance in Big Twin range) and had them
haul ass on some delicious twisties for one hour, which one would arrive
at the cafe first?

Who cares?

But consider this:

1) Grunt goes to the Dyna
2) Stiffer chassis goes to the Dyna
3) Top speed goes to the Dyna
4) Comfort goes to the Dyna
5) Range goes to the Dyna

Sporty's are nice,   but the Dyna is the better bike.   It should be, it costs a lot more.

[Grumbler]

Who cares?

Sons of Apathy M/C member, eh?  

[st ryder]

Sons of Apathy M/C member, eh?  

How many of those were Sportys? Seems they were just the "stunt" bikes. Wanna stunt? I think they're better choices than a Sporty, not to say one can't have a blast stunting on one. Wanna race to the coffee shop? I think there are better choices for that too. Just because one *can* stunt on a Sporty, or "race" one to the coffee shop, means little other than it *can* be used for those activities. One can tour the globe on a R1 too.

Wanna go for a nice day long ride on some scenic winding country road with your lady? Wanna go to the drag strip? Wanna make the scene at the coffee shop? Which bike "wins" those scenarios, if a "winner" is what you truly must have, rather than just appreciating both bikes for what they do?

Sorry, but HDs are NOT sport bikes in the true sense. But they sure can be fun ridden on "the edge." My Dyna Low Rider gave me a thrilling ride, but not in a spec sheet kind of way. I didn't need to get up to waaaaayyy illegal speeds on public roads to have fun. In that regard, it was more fun than my old FJR which was much, (much) faster, but just not as much fun to ride.   Sure, I'll see you at the coffee shop a little after you arrive. Will you be polishing your "I beat the others to the coffee shop" trophy for all to admire.  
 
Oh, here's a stunter. Wonder if he'd beat your "concept" Sporty to the coffee shop?  

[Grumbler]

How many of those were Sportys? Seems they were just the "stunt" bikes. Wanna stunt? I think they're better choices than a Sporty, not to say one can't have a blast stunting on one. Wanna race to the coffee shop? I think there are better choices for that too. Just because one *can* stunt on a Sporty, or "race" one to the coffee shop, means little other than it *can* be used for those activities. One can tour the globe on a R1 too.

It was a bikers just wanna have fun video, nothing more and nothing less. Am not into stunting
nor racing. Don't see much point in abusing a bike in stunts and racing on public roads doesn't
do anything for me. Was just interested in whether the Sportster or Dyna was more fun to ride
out on the twisties. What about flickability through a series of S-curves? Getting to the cafe or
whatever first was just to get a sense of which of those two bikes is better suited for those
winding backroads. Wasn't interested in the other aspects.

Wanna go for a nice day long ride on some scenic winding country road with your lady? Wanna go to the drag strip? Wanna make the scene at the coffee shop? Which bike "wins" those scenarios, if a "winner" is what you truly must have, rather than just appreciating both bikes for what they do?

First, yes. Second, no. Third, no. Wasn't interested in comparing those two in any other
lifestyles or categories. I just wanted to focus on how they compared per paragraph
above. Besides, I tend to keep a low profile what with having been pulled over all
too many times in the past.

Sorry, but HDs are NOT sport bikes in the true sense. But they sure can be fun ridden on "the edge." My Dyna Low Rider gave me a thrilling ride, but not in a spec sheet kind of way. I didn't need to get up to waaaaayyy illegal speeds on public roads to have fun. In that regard, it was more fun than my old FJR which was much, (much) faster, but just not as much fun to ride.   Sure, I'll see you at the coffee shop a little after you arrive. Will you be polishing your "I beat the others to the coffee shop" trophy for all to admire.  

Never did think they were. I recall the old Triumph 650 Bonnevilles vs XLCH contests in which
the Limeys excelled in the curves while the Ironheads pulled away on the straights. Seems as
if whenever HD comes out with a more sporting bike, they just don't sell. FXRS-Sport comes
to mind as does the XL1200S and XL1200R. HDs don't have to be pushed to the edge in
order to enjoy the ride. Had a Shovelhead which turned into a paintshaker at high speeds,
but I loved that bike. Got a Honda CB750F later, and the only way to enjoy it was to ride
it fast. Only had it for a few months then sold it.

BTW, am not into ego masturbation. Despite being an assertive rider, will ride at my own pace
and have no interest in getting into a competition with anyone. While I do love the curves and
hate the stuporslab, am also interested in exploring new roads and sights. Never saw much
sense in trying to make an impression on anyone.

Rode a '86 XL883->1200 with rearsets from Quincy to Downieville several years ago. It had a
wider front rim and tire which screwed-up the handling quickness. Of all the HD riders that  
I've shared the twisties with, one guy comes to mind as being the best and he was riding
his FXR. Nobody, including me, could stay with him. He switched to a 'busa.

[st ryder]

...Of all the HD riders that I've shared the twisties with, one guy comes to mind as being the best and he was riding his FXR. Nobody, including me, could stay with him. He switched to a 'busa.

I've heard many times that the FXR framed Harleys were the best handling Harleys ever built. Erik Buell worked on that frame design. It was canned because of the looks; the newer Dyan frame is much "cleaner" re visible frame tubes, and, it was also compared to Japanese crusiers of the time. HD can't have *that.*  

A Busa? I'd lose my license on somethng like that in short order.    

 

[Grumbler]

I've heard many times that the FXR framed Harleys were the best handling Harleys ever built. Erik Buell worked on that frame design. It was canned because of the looks; the newer Dyan frame is much "cleaner" re visible frame tubes, and, it was also compared to Japanese crusiers of the time. HD can't have *that.*  

The best handling Big Twins, yes. Haven't a clue whether that includes the Sportsters. There
is/was a professional racer on Sportster with plate reading RICE EATER (abbreviated) around
Alice's Restaurant in Skylonda, CA.

I don't know whether the pre-2004 Sportsters are better handling than the 2004 and later
versions which weight an extra 40-lbs.

[chornbe]

The best handling Big Twins, yes. Haven't a clue whether that includes the Sportsters. There
is/was a professional racer on Sportster with plate reading RICE EATER (abbreviated) around
Alice's Restaurant in Skylonda, CA.

I don't know whether the pre-2004 Sportsters are better handling than the 2004 and later
versions which weight an extra 40-lbs.

Supposed to be. I couldn't stand riding them far enough to get to the twisties. There's character... there's paint shaking... then there's rigid-mount Sportsters.  

[st ryder]

...There is/was a professional racer on Sportster with plate reading RICE EATER (abbreviated) around
Alice's Restaurant in Skylonda, CA. ..

Shows to go you: "It's not the bike."

Years ago I heard a crazy rumor that the retired KR had a FXDX, HD's best handling Dyna and arguably best handling a/c twin,  and would go out and smoke "crotch rockets" on the local, (Texas/Cali?) roads  around his ranch just for fun. I always wondered if it was true.

[chornbe]

Shows to go you: "It's not the bike."

 

Some day I hope to get my Sportster to turn. For now, I just run it down my driveway, then trailer it back to the top. It's tedious, but ya know... since they can't turn... it's my only real option.  

[Playinthestreet]

 

Some day I hope to get my Sportster to turn. For now, I just run it down my driveway, then trailer it back to the top. It's tedious, but ya know... since they can't turn... it's my only real option.  

I just ride I-5 from Sacramento to the Grapevine and then call Triple A.

[atadaskew]

I just ride I-5 from Sacramento to the Grapevine and then call Triple A.

How do you handle the off ramps when you need to stop for gas?

[Geoff]

Harley is doomed my ass! Today, the stock went up 5%, while the market is up only .8%.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/HOG

[atadaskew]

Harley is doomed my ass! Today, the stock went up 5%, while the market is up only .8%.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/HOG

yeah butt that's only because the dealerships just started carrying this as part of their Dark line:

[stevent]

The trouble with modern Sportsters is they all pander to short people. Older ones were decent enough handlers. My '78 XLH with Progressive shocks and springs and Conti Bltz's on 18/19 rims used to shit and git pretty well, likewise the bone stock XL1200R that some dildo is going to sell me some day will shit and git pretty well. I had amoung others 2 '05 Dyna's which though fun would not have beaten a 1200R in my opinion. Ground clearance is the problem, not grunt. I think I can toss my '08 FLHT around quicker than the Dyna's even though it's a heavier bike, it has more clearance and the wide glide plus 16 inch front wheel sticks better, I noticed the Superglide with 19 inch front was a Flexy Flyer when you tossed it around. That's a lot of weight concentrated on a skinny front end when braking and cornereing. Still fun bikes though, I only sold my last one because I wanted the bagger

 

As far as the article goes, yeah yeah Harley's doomed blah blah.....heard that one before. Their business will contract like all motorcycle business's have contracted but they'll still be around.