Harley Rejected BRP Offer to Buy Buell

[Schneegz]

This scan of an Australian MCN article was posted on the BMC Facebook page.

[veefer800canuck]

Sucks.  

[1000lbs]

Yup, Cycle News ran a similar piece last week.  I don't pretend to understand the ins and outs of the business side of the industry, but you'd think that getting some cash out of your investment in a "failed" product would have been better, than spending more $$$ to  eliminate it.  As a stock holder, I'd probably be pretty pissed.  Especially if the decision was made to save face if that same "failed" product were made successful by a competitor.  Sad, but as CN pointed out, maybe we will see a Buell BRP partnership after Erik's anti-competion period with HD runs out?

[Brad1445]

Im still hoping the Harley Paid for technology in the bikes is reintroduced with a clean slate making Harley a manufacture with a full diverse lineup of bikes like most competitors.

The fresh start allows new younger management, with a focus on quality and style.   A new dealer experience like the cruiser crowd already receives. Trained sales personnel and service techs as they will just be part of the Harley Family of bikes.

This could come off as a brilliant move for Harley.

[tigertim955]

I would think BRP has the capability to design and build a sport bike on their own. They certainly can produce a motor. I just hope any new Can Ams' have two wheels.

I had a 175 TnT back in the day ..... fun.

[chornbe]

Im still hoping the Harley Paid for technology in the bikes is reintroduced with a clean slate making Harley a manufacture with a full diverse lineup of bikes like most competitors.

The fresh start allows new younger management, with a focus on quality and style.   A new dealer experience like the cruiser crowd already receives. Trained sales personnel and service techs as they will just be part of the Harley Family of bikes.

This could come off as a brilliant move for Harley.

Never[1] gonna happen. If that was going to happen, NOW is the time to do it. Use the bail out money to get out from under the loans and to inject some fresh cash into that division and market the ever-loving hump out of it. They did not.

Unfortunately Harley owns the trademarks and I suppose patent rights to several pieces of the puzzle.

Buell could make an argument to get into bed with Polaris or BRP - the Fuel In Frame and Centralization of Mass certainly aren't new or (as I see it) patentable designs, anyway. If it were, then bikes like the 650R with its underslung muffler would have issues, and Buell was *NOT* the first to put fuel in the frame - he was simply the first to bring it to mass production (Hello, can you say Henry Ford?). There might be something to the ZTL system which, looking at the market, is a cool idea but not always the best solution.











[1] yeah, yeah "never say never"

I would think BRP has the capability to design and build a sport bike on their own. They certainly can produce a motor. I just hope any new Can Ams' have two wheels.

I had a 175 TnT back in the day ..... fun.

They certainly already know how to build the engines. I would think that their long-standing affiliations with Aprilia and Polaris would give them pause to start building a new line(s) of bikes, though. I dunno.

[falconati]

Just another reason Harley sucks  

Seriously though, there is no good business case for holding onto the trademark unless you think that Buell doing well or poorly will hurt your image after you've sold it.  I suppose they're worried that the brand might actually succeed, and that they'd look like big idiots.

[Tpoppa]

Erik still owns 2% of Buell.  I don't pretend to know how the contract was structured, but some with insider info have suggested the Erik still owns his patents.  So if he does build another street bike after his non-compete ends, he may not be starting from scratch.

HD owns the rights the the XB, 1125, and the Buell name.  I don't think they will reintroduce any of this technology.  If they were going to, it wouldn't make sense to buy out the Rotax contract or liquidate all the Buell tooling and eqipment.

[Tpoppa]

Seriously though, there is no good business case for holding onto the trademark unless you think that Buell doing well or poorly will hurt your image after you've sold it.  I suppose they're worried that the brand might actually succeed, and that they'd look like big idiots.

I think there is some truth in that.  Perhaps another American motorcycle manufacturer with appeal to younger riders, was seen as a threat.

Along those lines...Polaris just bought SwissAuto, who has made Moto GP engines in the past.  It makes you wonder if they are planning a Victory sportbike.

[scottzilla]

I think HD thought it best to just kill Buell rather than allow access to their parts and accessories.  In other words, they did it to protect themselves.  Think about it...whoever buys Buell ends up with HD engines and other parts that could be installed in another motorcycle.  HD spent a fortune protecting their copyrighted image out in the market, why hand the "Formula" to a competitor?

[Tpoppa]

I think HD thought it best to just kill Buell rather than allow access to their parts and accessories.  In other words, they did it to protect themselves.  Think about it...whoever buys Buell ends up with HD engines and other parts that could be installed in another motorcycle.  HD spent a fortune protecting their copyrighted image out in the market, why hand the "Formula" to a competitor?

Before HD bought Buell, they sold crate motors to Buell.  You can still buy a HD crate motor and install in any motorcycle you choose.

Per the article, BRP initailly tried to buy only the 1125 platform.  The development for that motor was funded by Buell, and does not use any HD technology.

[scottzilla]

Before HD bought Buell, they sold crate motors to Buell.  You can still buy a HD crate motor and install in any motorcycle you choose.

Per the article, BRP initailly tried to buy only the 1125 platform.  The development for that motor was funded by Buell, and does not use any HD technology.

HD sold crate motors to a company they owned 51% of (Buell).  That's a bit different than selling a motor to anyone that walks in the door.
You may be able to buy a crate motor from HD but I doubt you could do so cheap enough to use it to build a motorcycle around it.  With all the sucess HD had the last 20 years I would think there would be lots of HD powered knock-offs out there but there isn't, is there?

The thread title says BRP made offer to buy Buell so that's what i'm going on; I didn't research further.  I can't even read the attached article because it's so small.  If BRP asked to buy the 1125 chassis, that's HARDLY an offer to buy the company from HD.

[dorklord]

There might be something to the ZTL system which, looking at the market, is a cool idea but not always the best solution.

When did Buell introduce the ZTL brakes?

Tony Foale's QL had ZTL brakes in 84, there's a pic of a prototype he made prior to the QL with the same in this article.
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/feel2.pdf

HD sold crate motors to a company they owned 51% of (Buell).  That's a bit different than selling a motor to anyone that walks in the door.
You may be able to buy a crate motor from HD but I doubt you could do so cheap enough to use it to build a motorcycle around it.  With all the sucess HD had the last 20 years I would think there would be lots of HD powered knock-offs out there but there isn't, is there?

The thread title says BRP made offer to buy Buell so that's what i'm going on; I didn't research further.  I can't even read the attached article because it's so small.  If BRP asked to buy the 1125 chassis, that's HARDLY an offer to buy the company from HD.

Actually, Buell was selling harley-powered bikes in 87, got a minority interest (49%) in 93, and didn't get the rest until 98.

And harley DOES sell motors to literally anyone that walks in the door (provided that they have the money). Crate motors from HD might not be cheap enough that you could make a high-volume, low cost bike, but from 87 to 93 Buell was buying motors from HD and building bikes around them. I'm sure that some of the chopper companies out there do that as well, although I know many are getting motors from motor companies like S&S (one of S&S's facilities is just down the street from where I work, and their headquarters not that far from where I grew up. I've always wondered about their relationship with HD, are they simply producing motors for which patents have expired or do they have a licensing agreement?)

Also, you really should read the article before jumping to conclusions. BRP offered to buy the rights to the 1125s (planning to produce it as a BRP product, so I guess a Can-Am 1125R), HD refused, BRP then offered to buy the whole Buell company, with the understanding that HD would retain the rights to XBs (so BRP wouldn't be buying engines, or able to reproduce those bikes on their own.)

[Tpoppa]

What he said.

[chornbe]

When did Buell introduce the ZTL brakes?

No idea, hence the "might" in my statement.

Tony Foale's QL had ZTL brakes in 84, there's a pic of a prototype he made prior to the QL with the same in this article.
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/feel2.pdf

There ya go. Wow that is fugly to the Nth degree.

[Tpoppa]

That thing would look SWEET if he added some radiator pods!  Too bad it's air cooled.

[Brad1445]

Never[1] .........NOW is the time to do it. Use the bail out money to get out from under the loans and to inject some fresh cash into that division and market the ever-loving hump out of it. They did not. .........

Buell could not be resurrected, would take years to build the brand back up.  (remember I liked Buells) I dont like writing that the screwed the pooch..

Harley's "other bikes" require a fresh start.  It will be easy and fast to brand.

Buell's products were aging and did not have the Product or the name respect needed to bering it back to life.  The newest entry was rejected by most of the press and the buying public.

A new name and look will go a lot farther then just saying New and Improved as the 2010 Buells were still having issues that were 3 years old.  Clutch weep, Parasitic electrical drains, bad Speedo units, etc.

Anone can google contact info for Bremo, Showa and other suppliers. BRP did not need the luggage that would have come with Buell they could easily call Italy and get a cool design.

[dorklord]

No idea, hence the "might" in my statement.



There ya go. Wow that is fugly to the Nth degree.

I'm not stating that the Foale bike with its ZTL brake predates anything, simply pointing it out. I honestly don't know when Buell introduced the ZTL brakes, although from pictures I see online, it doesn't appear to have been on the bikes in the 80s and 90s.

But I have heard that it is patented, and that surprises me, as the patent should either be expired (if it was brought out 25 or so years ago) or if they tried to get it much more recently, then it appears there is good evidence of prior work (and it seems that the QL was a bike that was actually made, if in small numbers).

[Tpoppa]

Buell could not be resurrected, would take years to build the brand back up.  (remember I liked Buells) I dont like writing that the screwed the pooch..

Harley's "other bikes" require a fresh start.  It will be easy and fast to brand.

Buell's products were aging and did not have the Product or the name respect needed to bering it back to life.  The newest entry was rejected by most of the press and the buying public.

A new name and look will go a lot farther then just saying New and Improved as the 2010 Buells were still having issues that were 3 years old.  Clutch weep, Parasitic electrical drains, bad Speedo units, etc.

Anone can google contact info for Bremo, Showa and other suppliers. BRP did not need the luggage that would have come with Buell they could easily call Italy and get a cool design.

[chornbe]

I'm not stating that the Foale bike with its ZTL brake predates anything, simply pointing it out. I honestly don't know when Buell introduced the ZTL brakes, although from pictures I see online, it doesn't appear to have been on the bikes in the 80s and 90s.

But I have heard that it is patented, and that surprises me, as the patent should either be expired (if it was brought out 25 or so years ago) or if they tried to get it much more recently, then it appears there is good evidence of prior work (and it seems that the QL was a bike that was actually made, if in small numbers).

I don't think it appeared until the XB line, right? That would be 2003. That Foale was photographed in '97 apparently.

Here's an X1 with conventional brakes and they appeared to be the same through 2002: