Harley Rejected BRP Offer to Buy Buell

[Schneegz]

This scan of an Australian MCN article was posted on the BMC Facebook page.

[veefer800canuck]

Sucks.  

[1000lbs]

Yup, Cycle News ran a similar piece last week.  I don't pretend to understand the ins and outs of the business side of the industry, but you'd think that getting some cash out of your investment in a "failed" product would have been better, than spending more $$$ to  eliminate it.  As a stock holder, I'd probably be pretty pissed.  Especially if the decision was made to save face if that same "failed" product were made successful by a competitor.  Sad, but as CN pointed out, maybe we will see a Buell BRP partnership after Erik's anti-competion period with HD runs out?

[Brad1445]

Im still hoping the Harley Paid for technology in the bikes is reintroduced with a clean slate making Harley a manufacture with a full diverse lineup of bikes like most competitors.

The fresh start allows new younger management, with a focus on quality and style.   A new dealer experience like the cruiser crowd already receives. Trained sales personnel and service techs as they will just be part of the Harley Family of bikes.

This could come off as a brilliant move for Harley.

[tigertim955]

I would think BRP has the capability to design and build a sport bike on their own. They certainly can produce a motor. I just hope any new Can Ams' have two wheels.

I had a 175 TnT back in the day ..... fun.

[chornbe]

Im still hoping the Harley Paid for technology in the bikes is reintroduced with a clean slate making Harley a manufacture with a full diverse lineup of bikes like most competitors.

The fresh start allows new younger management, with a focus on quality and style.   A new dealer experience like the cruiser crowd already receives. Trained sales personnel and service techs as they will just be part of the Harley Family of bikes.

This could come off as a brilliant move for Harley.

Never[1] gonna happen. If that was going to happen, NOW is the time to do it. Use the bail out money to get out from under the loans and to inject some fresh cash into that division and market the ever-loving hump out of it. They did not.

Unfortunately Harley owns the trademarks and I suppose patent rights to several pieces of the puzzle.

Buell could make an argument to get into bed with Polaris or BRP - the Fuel In Frame and Centralization of Mass certainly aren't new or (as I see it) patentable designs, anyway. If it were, then bikes like the 650R with its underslung muffler would have issues, and Buell was *NOT* the first to put fuel in the frame - he was simply the first to bring it to mass production (Hello, can you say Henry Ford?). There might be something to the ZTL system which, looking at the market, is a cool idea but not always the best solution.











[1] yeah, yeah "never say never"

I would think BRP has the capability to design and build a sport bike on their own. They certainly can produce a motor. I just hope any new Can Ams' have two wheels.

I had a 175 TnT back in the day ..... fun.

They certainly already know how to build the engines. I would think that their long-standing affiliations with Aprilia and Polaris would give them pause to start building a new line(s) of bikes, though. I dunno.

[falconati]

Just another reason Harley sucks  

Seriously though, there is no good business case for holding onto the trademark unless you think that Buell doing well or poorly will hurt your image after you've sold it.  I suppose they're worried that the brand might actually succeed, and that they'd look like big idiots.

[Tpoppa]

Erik still owns 2% of Buell.  I don't pretend to know how the contract was structured, but some with insider info have suggested the Erik still owns his patents.  So if he does build another street bike after his non-compete ends, he may not be starting from scratch.

HD owns the rights the the XB, 1125, and the Buell name.  I don't think they will reintroduce any of this technology.  If they were going to, it wouldn't make sense to buy out the Rotax contract or liquidate all the Buell tooling and eqipment.

[Tpoppa]

Seriously though, there is no good business case for holding onto the trademark unless you think that Buell doing well or poorly will hurt your image after you've sold it.  I suppose they're worried that the brand might actually succeed, and that they'd look like big idiots.

I think there is some truth in that.  Perhaps another American motorcycle manufacturer with appeal to younger riders, was seen as a threat.

Along those lines...Polaris just bought SwissAuto, who has made Moto GP engines in the past.  It makes you wonder if they are planning a Victory sportbike.

[scottzilla]

I think HD thought it best to just kill Buell rather than allow access to their parts and accessories.  In other words, they did it to protect themselves.  Think about it...whoever buys Buell ends up with HD engines and other parts that could be installed in another motorcycle.  HD spent a fortune protecting their copyrighted image out in the market, why hand the "Formula" to a competitor?

[Tpoppa]

I think HD thought it best to just kill Buell rather than allow access to their parts and accessories.  In other words, they did it to protect themselves.  Think about it...whoever buys Buell ends up with HD engines and other parts that could be installed in another motorcycle.  HD spent a fortune protecting their copyrighted image out in the market, why hand the "Formula" to a competitor?

Before HD bought Buell, they sold crate motors to Buell.  You can still buy a HD crate motor and install in any motorcycle you choose.

Per the article, BRP initailly tried to buy only the 1125 platform.  The development for that motor was funded by Buell, and does not use any HD technology.

[scottzilla]

Before HD bought Buell, they sold crate motors to Buell.  You can still buy a HD crate motor and install in any motorcycle you choose.

Per the article, BRP initailly tried to buy only the 1125 platform.  The development for that motor was funded by Buell, and does not use any HD technology.

HD sold crate motors to a company they owned 51% of (Buell).  That's a bit different than selling a motor to anyone that walks in the door.
You may be able to buy a crate motor from HD but I doubt you could do so cheap enough to use it to build a motorcycle around it.  With all the sucess HD had the last 20 years I would think there would be lots of HD powered knock-offs out there but there isn't, is there?

The thread title says BRP made offer to buy Buell so that's what i'm going on; I didn't research further.  I can't even read the attached article because it's so small.  If BRP asked to buy the 1125 chassis, that's HARDLY an offer to buy the company from HD.

[dorklord]

There might be something to the ZTL system which, looking at the market, is a cool idea but not always the best solution.

When did Buell introduce the ZTL brakes?

Tony Foale's QL had ZTL brakes in 84, there's a pic of a prototype he made prior to the QL with the same in this article.
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/feel2.pdf

HD sold crate motors to a company they owned 51% of (Buell).  That's a bit different than selling a motor to anyone that walks in the door.
You may be able to buy a crate motor from HD but I doubt you could do so cheap enough to use it to build a motorcycle around it.  With all the sucess HD had the last 20 years I would think there would be lots of HD powered knock-offs out there but there isn't, is there?

The thread title says BRP made offer to buy Buell so that's what i'm going on; I didn't research further.  I can't even read the attached article because it's so small.  If BRP asked to buy the 1125 chassis, that's HARDLY an offer to buy the company from HD.

Actually, Buell was selling harley-powered bikes in 87, got a minority interest (49%) in 93, and didn't get the rest until 98.

And harley DOES sell motors to literally anyone that walks in the door (provided that they have the money). Crate motors from HD might not be cheap enough that you could make a high-volume, low cost bike, but from 87 to 93 Buell was buying motors from HD and building bikes around them. I'm sure that some of the chopper companies out there do that as well, although I know many are getting motors from motor companies like S&S (one of S&S's facilities is just down the street from where I work, and their headquarters not that far from where I grew up. I've always wondered about their relationship with HD, are they simply producing motors for which patents have expired or do they have a licensing agreement?)

Also, you really should read the article before jumping to conclusions. BRP offered to buy the rights to the 1125s (planning to produce it as a BRP product, so I guess a Can-Am 1125R), HD refused, BRP then offered to buy the whole Buell company, with the understanding that HD would retain the rights to XBs (so BRP wouldn't be buying engines, or able to reproduce those bikes on their own.)

[Tpoppa]

What he said.

[chornbe]

When did Buell introduce the ZTL brakes?

No idea, hence the "might" in my statement.

Tony Foale's QL had ZTL brakes in 84, there's a pic of a prototype he made prior to the QL with the same in this article.
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/feel2.pdf

There ya go. Wow that is fugly to the Nth degree.

[Tpoppa]

That thing would look SWEET if he added some radiator pods!  Too bad it's air cooled.

[Brad1445]

Never[1] .........NOW is the time to do it. Use the bail out money to get out from under the loans and to inject some fresh cash into that division and market the ever-loving hump out of it. They did not. .........

Buell could not be resurrected, would take years to build the brand back up.  (remember I liked Buells) I dont like writing that the screwed the pooch..

Harley's "other bikes" require a fresh start.  It will be easy and fast to brand.

Buell's products were aging and did not have the Product or the name respect needed to bering it back to life.  The newest entry was rejected by most of the press and the buying public.

A new name and look will go a lot farther then just saying New and Improved as the 2010 Buells were still having issues that were 3 years old.  Clutch weep, Parasitic electrical drains, bad Speedo units, etc.

Anone can google contact info for Bremo, Showa and other suppliers. BRP did not need the luggage that would have come with Buell they could easily call Italy and get a cool design.

[dorklord]

No idea, hence the "might" in my statement.



There ya go. Wow that is fugly to the Nth degree.

I'm not stating that the Foale bike with its ZTL brake predates anything, simply pointing it out. I honestly don't know when Buell introduced the ZTL brakes, although from pictures I see online, it doesn't appear to have been on the bikes in the 80s and 90s.

But I have heard that it is patented, and that surprises me, as the patent should either be expired (if it was brought out 25 or so years ago) or if they tried to get it much more recently, then it appears there is good evidence of prior work (and it seems that the QL was a bike that was actually made, if in small numbers).

[Tpoppa]

Buell could not be resurrected, would take years to build the brand back up.  (remember I liked Buells) I dont like writing that the screwed the pooch..

Harley's "other bikes" require a fresh start.  It will be easy and fast to brand.

Buell's products were aging and did not have the Product or the name respect needed to bering it back to life.  The newest entry was rejected by most of the press and the buying public.

A new name and look will go a lot farther then just saying New and Improved as the 2010 Buells were still having issues that were 3 years old.  Clutch weep, Parasitic electrical drains, bad Speedo units, etc.

Anone can google contact info for Bremo, Showa and other suppliers. BRP did not need the luggage that would have come with Buell they could easily call Italy and get a cool design.

[chornbe]

I'm not stating that the Foale bike with its ZTL brake predates anything, simply pointing it out. I honestly don't know when Buell introduced the ZTL brakes, although from pictures I see online, it doesn't appear to have been on the bikes in the 80s and 90s.

But I have heard that it is patented, and that surprises me, as the patent should either be expired (if it was brought out 25 or so years ago) or if they tried to get it much more recently, then it appears there is good evidence of prior work (and it seems that the QL was a bike that was actually made, if in small numbers).

I don't think it appeared until the XB line, right? That would be 2003. That Foale was photographed in '97 apparently.

Here's an X1 with conventional brakes and they appeared to be the same through 2002:

[Tpoppa]

I don't know the exact date of the ZTL patent, but I believe that and the Fuel in Frame patent were from the 80's.  It's on Badweb, but I'm too lazy to search.

[scottzilla]

When did Buell introduce the ZTL brakes?

Tony Foale's QL had ZTL brakes in 84, there's a pic of a prototype he made prior to the QL with the same in this article.
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/feel2.pdf



Actually, Buell was selling harley-powered bikes in 87, got a minority interest (49%) in 93, and didn't get the rest until 98.

And harley DOES sell motors to literally anyone that walks in the door (provided that they have the money). Crate motors from HD might not be cheap enough that you could make a high-volume, low cost bike, but from 87 to 93 Buell was buying motors from HD and building bikes around them. I'm sure that some of the chopper companies out there do that as well, although I know many are getting motors from motor companies like S&S (one of S&S's facilities is just down the street from where I work, and their headquarters not that far from where I grew up. I've always wondered about their relationship with HD, are they simply producing motors for which patents have expired or do they have a licensing agreement?)

Also, you really should read the article before jumping to conclusions. BRP offered to buy the rights to the 1125s (planning to produce it as a BRP product, so I guess a Can-Am 1125R), HD refused, BRP then offered to buy the whole Buell company, with the understanding that HD would retain the rights to XBs (so BRP wouldn't be buying engines, or able to reproduce those bikes on their own.)

I'm not jumping to conclusions.  I'm simply offering an opinion as to why HD may have chose to kill Buell rather than sell it.
BRP, offering to buy the 1125 and not taking the XB line, is not an offer to "Buy Buell".  Shit, HD could have offered to sell the company back to it's employees if it wanted it to.  Instead, they killed it.  They had a reason for doing this.

[Rogue]

...why HD may have chose to kill Buell rather than sell it.
They had a reason for doing this.

Greed and self preservation.

Mostly greed and hatred for Buell.

[scottzilla]

Greed and self preservation.

Mostly greed and hatred for Buell.

That's not a sound business reason.  HD, as much as YOU may dislike them, is a pretty smart corporation and has a history of making smart moves.

[chornbe]

They've been around a long time.

[Brad1445]

That's not a sound business reason.  HD, as much as YOU may dislike them, is a pretty smart corporation and has a history of making smart moves.

+1

[atadaskew]

Ghezzi Brian has been using those ZTL brakes before Buell..

[Rincewind]

Thanks for the article Schneegz.  I had no idea they had made two offers on Buell.  It's very interesting news - though pretty much meaningless to Buell at this point, it shows that BRP has the money and intent to get into sportbikes.  

And the notion of Harley turning around and producing their own sportbikes in place of Buell is just a big wet dream.  Look at the article - what is Harley doing to entice young blood now?  They are producing a fat-tired retro Sportster, the 48...  I had hopes for HD when they acquired MV Agusta and the Rotax-Buells appeared, but now, with the new CEO w/o a clue, all that is LOST.

[Kootenanny]

That's not a sound business reason.  HD, as much as YOU may dislike them, is a pretty smart corporation and has a history of making smart moves.

Hmmm...they made some BAD moves back in the 70s, nearly went down the toilet, but then sold out to a group of employees--those are the guys who resurrected the brand and made it an icon.  Recently, however, the board changed and they got a new CEO--a guy from a different area of business, hell he doesn't even ride a motorcycle.  A lot of this stuff reeks of "new CEO taking charge and putting his stamp on the company..."

I love those Ghezzi-Brian designs, but...they're not making very good use of the ZTL.  The whole reason for the ZTL design is to reduce unsprung weight...putting two ZTL rotors on the wheel kinda defeats the purpose...

BRP did not need the luggage that would have come with Buell they could easily call Italy and get a cool design.

Hmmm...a design already using a BRP/Rotax engine, and a factory to go with it too, huh?  Yup, they're a dime a dozen in Italy...

[Brad1445]

Hmmm...a design already using a BRP/Rotax engine, and a factory to go with it too, huh?  Yup, they're a dime a dozen in Italy...

Thats not what I'm saying.  Im saying start from scratch would be a better move.  What could be the benefit of buying the 1125? A failed product. Start from scratch.  The factory, probably smells of reefer and has bad ju ju I say.

Harley is the only one that could fix that mess with its marketing reach.  Anyone else would be better off starting from scratch vs buying Buell in it's current state.

[scottzilla]

Hmmm...they made some BAD moves back in the 70s, nearly went down the toilet, but then sold out to a group of employees--those are the guys who resurrected the brand and made it an icon.  Recently, however, the board changed and they got a new CEO--a guy from a different area of business, hell he doesn't even ride a motorcycle.  A lot of this stuff reeks of "new CEO taking charge and putting his stamp on the company..."

I love those Ghezzi-Brian designs, but...they're not making very good use of the ZTL.  The whole reason for the ZTL design is to reduce unsprung weight...putting two ZTL rotors on the wheel kinda defeats the purpose...


Hmmm...a design already using a BRP/Rotax engine, and a factory to go with it too, huh?  Yup, they're a dime a dozen in Italy...

You could be right; the new CEO thing is a real possibility.  I'm surprised nobody is bad mouthing the CEO though.

[Croak]

I bet BRP wanted the Buell factory for NAFTA reasons, and with the labour market the way it is, they could probably assemble bikes (and trikes) in Michigan cheaper than Ontario and might have been able to put a snout in the U.S. "Stimulus" trough as well.  It also would have put a legitmate "Am" in Can-Am brand name.

I also bet the Rotax division was left holding a bag with the ending of the 1125 motor production, there's likely no way HD paid the entire costs of the production line to Rotax for that motor up front, it was probably structured to be profitable after a few more years of production.  Being able to keep making bikes that used that motor (and use that motor in other applications) would have offset those potential losses.

It's also worth noting that besides the 1125, AFAIK BRP-Rotax hasn't landed a contract for a new litre-class motor since the 2006 update of the 998cc motor for the Mille/Tuono (now used  in the Spyder), and they've since lost Aprilia as a customer.  Those HD/Buell patents on the 1125 would have been useful all by themselves.  As a matter of fact, I think that Rotax only has one motorcycle customer now, BMW and the 800cc parallel twin.

[jstark47]

You could be right; the new CEO thing is a real possibility.  I'm surprised nobody is bad mouthing the CEO though.

Oh... you don't read badweb enough.  Wandell got his whacks from the inmates there.

[bomber]

I don't know the exact date of the ZTL patent, but I believe that and the Fuel in Frame patent were from the 80's.  It's on Badweb, but I'm too lazy to search.

OK, I'm not a patent attorney, but I ride with one, and herre's my understanding (any mistakes my own -- he's well respected in his profession).

In the US, you don't patent a concept (like fuel in frame or inside out brakes), but the execution of the concept (the specific way that Buell places the fuel in the frame, or mounts the inside out brakes).

Otherwise, someone could patent the internal combustion engine, the concho, and fringe --

[scramblerracer123]

 


Nothing to add to the discussion, but this is one cool looking bike.  

[scottzilla]

Oh... you don't read badweb enough.  Wandell got his whacks from the inmates there.

I haven't been to Badweb since I sold the XB.
I think the CEO angle is one I did not consider.  Fits perfectly, considering how stupid CEO's can be.

[Brad1445]

I bet BRP wanted the Buell factory for NAFTA reasons, and with the labour market the way it is, they could probably assemble bikes (and trikes) in Michigan cheaper than Ontario and might have been able to put a snout in the U.S. "Stimulus" trough as well.  It also would have put a legitmate "Am" in Can-Am brand name.

I also bet the Rotax division was left holding a bag with the ending of the 1125 motor production, there's likely no way HD paid the entire costs of the production line to Rotax for that motor up front, it was probably structured to be profitable after a few more years of production.  Being able to keep making bikes that used that motor (and use that motor in other applications) would have offset those potential losses.

It's also worth noting that besides the 1125, AFAIK BRP-Rotax hasn't landed a contract for a new litre-class motor since the 2006 update of the 998cc motor for the Mille/Tuono (now used  in the Spyder), and they've since lost Aprilia as a customer.  Those HD/Buell patents on the 1125 would have been useful all by themselves.  As a matter of fact, I think that Rotax only has one motorcycle customer now, BMW and the 800cc parallel twin.

What a great post.
I think you know your chit.  I'll put my chips on this scenario.

[Brad1445]

 


Thats hot!!!!!!

[falconati]

that IS hot.

[Kootenanny]

In the US, you don't patent a concept (like fuel in frame or inside out brakes), but the execution of the concept (the specific way that Buell places the fuel in the frame, or mounts the inside out brakes).

Otherwise, someone could patent the internal combustion engine, the concho, and fringe --

I read Buell's "fuel-in-frame" patent application once, online.  What he patented, at least in the paperwork I read, was the way the inside of the frame neck is cast in the area of the steering head--it is designed to break in the event of a crash, without rupturing the fuel tank proper.

I believe Erik Buell holds something like 100 patents--not all of them associated with motorcycles.

[Brad1445]

I read Buell's "fuel-in-frame" patent application once, online.  What he patented, at least in the paperwork I read, was the way the inside of the frame neck is cast in the area of the steering head--it is designed to break in the event of a crash, without rupturing the fuel tank proper.

I believe Erik Buell holds something like 100 patents--not all of them associated with motorcycles.

[Rogue]

That's not a sound business reason.  HD, as much as YOU may dislike them, is a pretty smart corporation and has a history of making smart moves.

Name me a Corporation that is NOT greedy?  Buell was quite possibly the closest one that fits that description.

HD is a greedy sumbitch, like most Corporations.  All they care about is their Earnings Per Share.  Why do you think they felt compelled to sell Buell?  Because they got so scared that they felt they needed to take drastic measures, including cutting off one of their conduits to a younger customer base.

Other smart moves by H-D:

The XR1200....how many have they sold of this?
The Sportster R with 64 bhp...wtf?  
The XLCR....they thought they could sell it against the likes of the CB1000's and KZ1000's because it was a H-D.
The XR1000...another attempt at selling on nostalgia alone without much improvement in performance
Dropping the Street Rod....one of the few H-D's that actually had performance.

H-D has a long history of offering "performance bikes" on looks and style alone.  Sadly, a lot of H-D owners eat that shit up.  Did you know H-D was once regarded as a high performance brand?  Yeah.  That was back in 1970!  Ironically, that was back in the day when H-D still had a chance to compete against the Japanese and Europeans.  Now, H-D stands for style and lifestyle.  Occassionally, they will take a gander at a performance model, sell it for a couple of years, then drop it from their line up.  Buell was the ONLY part of H-D that actually made REAL performance bikes.  But H-D was too smart for that so they shut them down so they can focus on selling more Harley's on style and lifestyle.  In the meantime, the performance standard has become too far for them to even consider reaching.  

[Rogue]

It's also worth noting that besides the 1125, AFAIK BRP-Rotax hasn't landed a contract for a new litre-class motor since the 2006 update of the 998cc motor for the Mille/Tuono (now used  in the Spyder), and they've since lost Aprilia as a customer.  Those HD/Buell patents on the 1125 would have been useful all by themselves.  As a matter of fact, I think that Rotax only has one motorcycle customer now, BMW and the 800cc parallel twin.

Don't you worry about BRP-Rotax.  

They build plenty of General Aviation engines not only for the Experimental Market but for fully Certified Aircraft as well.  They don't need motorcycle engine contracts to survive.

[Kootenanny]

Brad, you've posted this pic on several occasions.  What's the story?

And, BTW, did the fuel tank rupture?

[Brad1445]

Brad, you've posted this pic on several occasions.  What's the story?

And, BTW, did the fuel tank rupture?

I dont know why I used it before but in this case it to support Rogue's example of the patented design intended to protect the fuel tank.  I don't know the specific of that picture first hand but it does appear it worked as intended.

Or you may have mistaken it for my often refered to Pod of death picture.  

[Schneegz]

Or you may have mistaken it for my often refered to Pod of death picture.  

Wow!  I'd never seen that photo before!  Can you post it again, please?  

[chornbe]

Name me a Corporation that is NOT greedy?  Buell was quite possibly the closest one that fits that description.

HD is a greedy sumbitch, like most Corporations.  All they care about is their Earnings Per Share.  Why do you think they felt compelled to sell Buell?  Because they got so scared that they felt they needed to take drastic measures, including cutting off one of their conduits to a younger customer base.

Every company that is publicly traded, is directed by a board of directors and/or has this pressing need to pay its employees (especially in ESOP situations) MUST make a profit to satisfy those who direct cash flow. No profit, no business.

H-D has a long history of offering "performance bikes" on looks and style alone.  Sadly, a lot of H-D owners eat that shit up.  Did you know H-D was once regarded as a high performance brand?  Yeah.  That was back in 1970!  Ironically, that was back in the day when H-D still had a chance to compete against the Japanese and Europeans.  Now, H-D stands for style and lifestyle.  Occassionally, they will take a gander at a performance model, sell it for a couple of years, then drop it from their line up.  Buell was the ONLY part of H-D that actually made REAL performance bikes.  But H-D was too smart for that so they shut them down so they can focus on selling more Harley's on style and lifestyle.  In the meantime, the performance standard has become too far for them to even consider reaching.  

Well, that's kind of short sighted discussion, there. Products - and even whole companies - evolve. Harley makes what people have been historically buying, and they've trimmed those things they historically did not. Their "performance" offerings have been, exactly as you say, more image than substance. Corolla has a "sport" model, too.  



A "sport" minivan...?  



The Goldwing was a performance bike at its inception. And yet...


The Thunderbird was a performance car to challenge the Corvette at its inception. And yet...


Harley has excelled at giving their buyers *exactly* what they want and have asked for. Good, bad, right or wrong, ultimately, the fate of HD Inc. likes solely in the buyers' hands. If they stopped making cruisers today and revamped their product lines to start selling CBR clones, who would buy them?

Two people... NO and ONE.

[Tpoppa]

HD's dark years would be time leading up to AMF including the AMF years.  Those were the days where the bean counters took power from the riders at the exec levels.  Willie G and company (actual riders) eventually took the company back over, refocused the MoCo and had many years of success.

Now fast forward, and they turn the company over to Wandell, an admitted bean-counting-non-rider.  Who immediatly proceeds to polarize the riding community by closing Buell, and pissing off lot's of younger riders in the process.

I seriously doubt that Wandell, who was VERY new to the motorcycle industry, had his finger on the pulse of the subtle differences between sportbike/cruiser markets and older/younger riders.  This all seems quite similiar to AMF days.

[atadaskew]

If all the people whining about Buell being shut down actually bought a Buell when they were in production, we wouldn't be having these discussions..


If you want to know why Harley killed off Buell, take a look in your garage.

[bomber]

Every company that is publicly traded, is directed by a board of directors and/or has this pressing need to pay its employees (especially in ESOP situations) MUST make a profit to satisfy those who direct cash flow. No profit, no business.

Yessiree bob -- what always puzzles me are the folks that use the word GREEDY (most always capitalized) with regard to for-profit companies react with horror, and accuse you of being a socialist if you suggest they cut their income to make the products on which they labor more affordable for others.

Personal profit seems to be OK -- organizational profit, well, that's just greed.

Oops -- make the GREED.

[chornbe]

If all the people whining about Buell being shut down actually bought a Buell when they were in production, we wouldn't be having these discussions..


If you want to know why Harley killed off Buell, take a look in your garage.

Wait... hold on a moment... wait... you're suggesting that overall poor sales compared to the company's other offerings made shutting down Buell even remotely feasible? Is that what I'm hearing from you? That perhaps if more consumers had purchased Buells instead of waiting 'til now (like me, for instance) that Buell might still be around and might actually be a viable contender in the free market society in which they operated? Is that my understanding of your musings?

[Kootenanny]

If all the people whining about Buell being shut down actually bought a Buell when they were in production, we wouldn't be having these discussions..

If you want to know why Harley killed off Buell, take a look in your garage.

I look in my garage, and I see...a Buell!  Been there for the past 5 years.  Gee, funny that.

Buell was in the black, and selling bikes...they were growing faster than H-D itself.  Tpoppa is much closer to the reason Buell was shut down:

Now fast forward, and they turn the company over to Wandell, an admitted bean-counting-non-rider.  Who immediatly proceeds to polarize the riding community by closing Buell, and pissing off lot's of younger riders in the process.

I seriously doubt that Wandell, who was VERY new to the motorcycle industry, had his finger on the pulse of the subtle differences between sportbike/cruiser markets and older/younger riders.  This all seems quite similiar to AMF days.

[atadaskew]

I look in my garage, and I see...a Buell!  Been there for the past 5 years.  Gee, funny that.

Buell was in the black, and selling bikes...they were growing faster than H-D itself.  Tpoppa is much closer to the reason Buell was shut down:

You are one of the very few.  And yours is one of the air cooled ones.  Even you, a Buell die-hard, could not be made to buy one of their LC bikes.  And that is where the investment and future of the company lay.  Seems to me - judging by the content of this board, that most everyone else who jumped on the Buell bandwagon and bought one, did so after they were offered at firesale clearance prices.  Tpoppa included.

Then they wax ecstatic about how great the bikes are - well they would be for $5K.  But they didn't think they were great at a price that would make a profit for Buell.  How do I know?  Cuz no-one bought them.
How do I know no-one bought them?  Because of all the bikes they dumped out on clearance.

[Tpoppa]

My current Buell is the third I have owned.  

The most damaging part of the HD realtionship was by far the dealerships, and I'm not bashing the dealerships.  It just the reality of the motorcycle market.

How many poeple who are looking for a sportbike or adventure bike, go to a HD dealer?  How many people who were looking for a Road King wind up buying a Firebolt?  The answer to both questions is VERY FEW.  Most people who bought Buells were specifically looking for a Buell.

What if Buell was sold next to Ducati and Triumph?  Alot more sportbike friendly asses would have sat on Buells and more would have been sold.  The Lightnings and CR's would have pulled sales from Monsters & Speed Triples.  The Ulysses could have competed directly with the Tiger and Multistrada.  Etc, Etc.  Sales are a function of traffic, anyone with a sales or marketing background can tell you that.

HD was never on a mission to sell Buells, they saw Buell as a way to get younger buyers into showrooms to eventually buy Harleys.  Fact.  This all supports the fact that HD and Buell were not a good fit.  HD should had sold Buell.  Closing Buell was a very shortsighted decision, made by people who do not understand the sportbike market.  

A successful Buell, free of HD, would have made HD look like a bunch of old guys with even less appeal to younger riders.

[atadaskew]

My current Buell is the third I have owned.  

That arguably is even more damning for Buell.  There you are, a 'loyal' customer, and yet you wouldn't buy the 1125 until it was on clearance.  That was meant to be the future for Buell.

Posted on: February 12, 2010, 08:35:28 pm

 Closing Buell was a very shortsighted decision, made by people who do not understand the sportbike market.  

The 1125 series showed that Buell didn't understand the sportbike market either.  If they did, it would have sold well.  Racing it against 600cc bikes showed they didn't understand the sportbike market.  Releasing it in beta format for magazines to test showed they didn't understand the sport bike market.

[Tpoppa]

That arguably is even more damning for Buell.  There you are, a 'loyal' customer, and yet you wouldn't buy the 1125 until it was on clearance.  That was meant to be the future for Buell.

Posted on: February 12, 2010, 08:35:28 pm

The 1125 series showed that Buell didn't understand the sportbike market either.  If they did, it would have sold well.  Racing it against 600cc bikes showed they didn't understand the sportbike market.  Releasing it in beta format for magazines to test showed they didn't understand the sport bike market.

Wow that is quite a reach, and completely incorrect I might add.

[Brad1445]

That arguably is even more damning for Buell.  There you are, a 'loyal' customer, and yet you wouldn't buy the 1125 until it was on clearance.  That was meant to be the future for Buell.

Posted on: February 12, 2010, 08:35:28 pm

The 1125 series showed that Buell didn't understand the sportbike market either.  If they did, it would have sold well.  Racing it against 600cc bikes showed they didn't understand the sportbike market.  Releasing it in beta format for magazines to test showed they didn't understand the sport bike market.

Put me in that count too.  I was as loyal as you get.  I would not even buy the 1125 at Half price. I have had four Ducati's I understand the appeal high revving twins.  I understand the great handling of a XB Buell.

To me the 1125 value is somewhere around $1,500 as its dependability keeps it in a track bike status that with looks that you don't care if you drop.  If I get one at that price it will never go further away then 5 miles from a mechanic.

[atadaskew]

Wow that is quite a reach, and completely incorrect I might add.

Which part?  The bit that they released an under-developed bike to the world press?  Or the bit that they decided that racing against 600cc bikes would look good?  Or the bit that they could only move them when they reduced the price by 50%?

[Baz]

Im still hoping the Harley Paid for technology in the bikes is reintroduced with a clean slate making Harley a manufacture with a full diverse lineup of bikes like most competitors.

The fresh start allows new younger management, with a focus on quality and style.   A new dealer experience like the cruiser crowd already receives. Trained sales personnel and service techs as they will just be part of the Harley Family of bikes.

This could come off as a brilliant move for Harley.

It won't happen in this decade. That's if you read into what their CEO said about closing down Buell. According to him, the two operations HD & Buell were so integrated, a split of the two companies would not have ever been an option. (same Union and same factory floor in some cases)

Seriously, MV is what Bombardier is really after.

I would bet that their offer for Buell would have been pennies knowing that all they would have been buying would be a name (and not a really good name). Without a dealer network, (good or bad) or a factory, Buell would really not be worth anything. I have no idea what Buell's market share is, but we know it is not huge.

Let's say Bombardier did get Buell. They would have purchased the name of a company that had little market share in an industry in really bad shape. They would have had no dealer network (doubtfull HD could have linked the sale with HD dealers). Plus Bombardier already owns the Rotax Buell Engine.

So why not hire someone to either design a chassis (or buy an existing one from a someone) throw in your Rotax Engine, and then get your current BRP dealers to sell it? Maybe make it all in China (yea go on, throw things at me) and maybe they would have a chance at making money. They could start off like KTM did with their street bikes.

Seriously, do you think a rebirth of the Buell name would make it an instant success? No, they were way down the food chain for a reason. The market decided their death.  

[chornbe]

Which part?  The bit that they released an under-developed bike to the world press?  Or the bit that they decided that racing against 600cc bikes would look good?  Or the bit that they could only move them when they reduced the price by 50%?

Well, in fairness, that was a PRIVATEER group that raced the 1125s against 600s. That wasn't Erik's idea (though he sure did glom onto the win).



Factory and privateers can run twins up to 1200cc in WSBK litre class due to the dispensation for twins.

[chornbe]

Seriously, do you think a rebirth of the Buell name would make it an instant success? No, they were way down the food chain for a reason. The market decided their death.  

Yes and no. I have come to truly believe that if Buells had been sitting in multi-line dealers with lightnings along side Gixxers and Ulies along side 'Stroms for the last 10 years, we would see a very, very different market. Could you imagine walking into a dealer and being told "No, sorry... you can't test ride the Gixxer, but that Buell over there is available for test rides." I've walked away from lots of deals on bikes because I was flat out shut down for test rides.

But I fully agree... we will *not* see (ever...?) a re-released sport(ier) bike like from Harley using Buell tech (or any tech).

It's not their game. Which sucks. I maintain there have GOT to be some engineers and techs/mechs working there that *want* to create something different and new and kick ass.

[Kootenanny]

You are one of the very few.  And yours is one of the air cooled ones.  Even you, a Buell die-hard, could not be made to buy one of their LC bikes.

Well, I hadn't worn out the Firebolt yet.  I've only had it for 5 years...unlike some members of this board, I don't change my bike more often than I change my shirt.

I really don't know about the 1125, I've never ridden one,  and to be honest, I never really felt the need.  I am no longer a teenager, and I see no reason to have the most powerful bike on the block.  When I demo'd a bunch of Triumphs last year, I preferred the 675 Street Triple to the 1050 Speed Triple.  I think a lot of riders get hung up on horsepower...really, if you can't go fast on a 250, you aren't gonna go very fast on a 1000.  I'm happy with my 'Bolt, and I think it's a shame so many people won't even try one simply because of the numbers.  The 1125 was an attempt to rectify that, IMO--the market "demands" that sportbikes be LC, so Buell produced one.  

[Kootenanny]

...What if Buell was sold next to Ducati and Triumph?  Alot more sportbike friendly asses would have sat on Buells and more would have been sold...

In Europe, this is exactly what happened.

HD was never on a mission to sell Buells, they saw Buell as a way to get younger buyers into showrooms to eventually buy Harleys.  Fact.  This all supports the fact that HD and Buell were not a good fit.  HD should had sold Buell.  Closing Buell was a very shortsighted decision, made by people who do not understand the sportbike market.  

Yes, agreed.  For a company with such excellent marketing, I'm surprised H-D never seemed to understand that very few Buell owners view their bikes as a "stepping stone" to a Harley.  But then again, I think that quite a few Harley dealers (and a lot of their clientele) view sportbikes--of any make--as "kid's bikes," a sort of phase riders pass through before they get a gut and buy a Harley.

[Kootenanny]

I would bet that their offer for Buell would have been pennies knowing that all they would have been buying would be a name (and not a really good name). Without a dealer network, (good or bad) or a factory, Buell would really not be worth anything. I have no idea what Buell's market share is, but we know it is not huge.

Let's say Bombardier did get Buell. They would have purchased the name of a company that had little market share in an industry in really bad shape. They would have had no dealer network (doubtfull HD could have linked the sale with HD dealers). Plus Bombardier already owns the Rotax Buell Engine.

So why not hire someone to either design a chassis (or buy an existing one from a someone) throw in your Rotax Engine, and then get your current BRP dealers to sell it? Maybe make it all in China (yea go on, throw things at me) and maybe they would have a chance at making money. They could start off like KTM did with their street bikes.

Seriously, do you think a rebirth of the Buell name would make it an instant success? No, they were way down the food chain for a reason. The market decided their death.  

Had BRP bought Buell, they would have gotten the factory, tooled up to produce all the bikes in production, and an experienced workforce.  It wouldn't have been a "rebirth" of Buell, but rather a continuation.  

BRP already owns Rotax, so they would have owned the 1125R in entirety (I don't know that Rotax "owns" the Helicon engine...when H-D bought out the contract, they may well have retained rights to the engine).  

Buell may be a small player in the overall motorcycle market, but so is BRP...and the Buell name is well known, even if their sale numbers are small.  Hey, MV Agusta isn't exactly a powerhouse builder either, but most of us recognize that name, too.  And Buells could well  have been sold through existing BRP dealers...not as extensive as H-D, but then again, we all sort of agree that most H-D dealers were not really that effective with Buells.  A smaller production company may not need such a huge dealer network.

[Brad1445]

Yes and no. I have come to truly believe that if Buells had been sitting in multi-line dealers with lightnings along side Gixxers and Ulies along side 'Stroms for the last 10 years, we would see a very, very different market. Could you imagine walking into a dealer and being told "No, sorry... you can't test ride the Gixxer, but that Buell over there is available for test rides." I've walked away from lots of deals on bikes because I was flat out shut down for test rides.

But I fully agree... we will *not* see (ever...?) a re-released sport(ier) bike like from Harley using Buell tech (or any tech).

It's not their game. Which sucks. I maintain there have GOT to be some engineers and techs/mechs working there that *want* to create something different and new and kick ass.

I agree they would have sold better during the XB years, but I'm bit so sure the 1125 looked quite competitive and differently not if its leaking clutch fluid o the showroom floor.

Old Days...


Modern times, not so much

[Brad1445]

Had BRP bought Buell, they would have gotten the factory, tooled up to produce all the bikes in production, and an experienced workforce.  It wouldn't have been a "rebirth" of Buell, but rather a continuation.  

.......

and that was going well...

they may have wanted to by Buell to repair their name.  They could have recalled the bikes fixed them then take Buell behind the barn and shoot it.  Or hire someone to design a proper bike to wrap around the engine.

[Rogue]

If all the people whining about Buell being shut down actually bought a Buell when they were in production, we wouldn't be having these discussions..


If you want to know why Harley killed off Buell, take a look in your garage.

H-D shut down Buell because they wanted to put all their eggs in one basket:  THEIR basket!  Sales overall for H-D were plummeting, and their Finance side of the business was bleeding them dry due to all the sub-prime loans they gave out to pad their Gross Sales number.  So in a knee jerk reaction coupled with an overall indifference and de-facto hatred for Erik Buell and the sportbike market altogether, H-D upper management decided to axe Buell.  

It wasn't the lack of Buell sales that did it.  This has been discussed in here over and over an you haven't been paying attention.

The 1125R was released in 2008.  Prior to that, Buell's sales of the Uly and Lightning have been very good.  It was NOT the 1125R that killed Buell as you theorized, in fact it accounted for a very small percent of Buell sales.  The largest chunk of Buell sales had always been from the Lightning and Ully, with the Firebolt bringing the rear.  The 1125R didn't even make a dent and it never will because just when it was about to expand into the CR and other upgraded models, H-D killed Buell.  2009 was a brutal year for the motorcycle industry so your theory of blaming the lack of 1125R sales that killed Buell is ignoring many of the facts.    

I strongly believe that in its heart and soul H-D never fully accepted Buell.  That was obvious with its owner's attitude, its dealer's attitude, and its corporate thinking.  H-D always put itself first and let Erik Buell take the crumbs from its table.  Is it any surprise that Buell had to go to Rotax to get the engine he really wanted?  That's because H-D pulled the rug from underneath him back when he was designing the V-Rod motor.  H-D management didn't like Erik, didn't like his bikes, didn't like him taking a piece of the financial pie, and didn't like the fact that Buell represented a product mix that was anti-H-D.  That's the REAL reason H-D killed Buell.  It had nothing to do with 1125R sales because that bike wasn't even in the market long enough to make a dent.  

[Rogue]

 But then again, I think that quite a few Harley dealers (and a lot of their clientele) view sportbikes--of any make--as "kid's bikes," a sort of phase riders pass through before they get a gut and buy a Harley.

H-D and most of their clients viewed Buell and sportbikes as "anti-H-D".  They have always treated sportbikes as something of a cancer.  What do sportbikes and H-D have in common?  They have two wheels!  Other than that, there is absolutely NOTHING in common.  Everything that H-D wants to project:  easygoing big-inch power, nostalgia, chrome, slow cruising, Made In The USA, all go against the sportbike mantra of performance, function, sleek and modern looks.  Nothing H-D makes comes close to that.  

So in my opinion, the sportbike market is a market that H-D wants by converting sportbikers into cruisers.  H-D does NOT want to build high performance bikes!  They have no desire to build sportbikes, nor even sporty cruisers!  They want to build nostalgic bikes that sell on looks and image!  Anything that deals with the sportbiking market isn't worth the time nor attention of H-D.  They have always had this attitude before, and their current actions against Buell seals that perception and image once and for all.  

[ninegear]

i still do not see why harley wont build a sportbike or two. if triumph can go from harley style cuiser to sportbike i dont see why harley can't. the new ceo can make profit and make his reputation a little bit better if he did something to please the buell fans. if the guy released a few of the XB models under the harley name it would be amazing. i would be interested again.

[veefer800canuck]

i still do not see why harley wont build a sportbike or two. if triumph can go from harley style cuiser to sportbike i dont see why harley can't. the new ceo can make profit and make his reputation a little bit better if he did something to please the buell fans. if the guy released a few of the XB models under the harley name it would be amazing. i would be interested again.

Harley wants to merchandise their brand name. They'll keep making archaic air-cooled twins to keep the HD faithful coming back, but I'll bet that Harley makes more money per year off of whoring out the bar and shield logo than they do from manufacturing motorcycles.

Second to that is selling HD branded accessories for the bikes, racks, Dreamin' Beagle Exhausts and intake kits, frilly saddlebags and chrome conch shells, chrome handlegrips with leather fringes on them, big cubic inch bore/stroker kits to restore the HP that should have been on the bike the day you bought it, etc.

The OLD Triumph (pre John Bloor and Hinckley) remember, came through the classic Cafe racer days, the Mods and the Rockers, back in the day there were homebuilt Cafe' specials, Triumph powered Hybrid Nortons (TriTons), etc, so it's much easier for Triumph to make a sportbike owing to their heritage, after all, remember the 1960's Bonneville? I mean, it's not all Thunderbirds and Rocket III's. There are also Thruxtons and Sprints and so a Daytona sports model isn't too much of a stretch for them, historically speaking.

And "Buell fans"? HAH! Did you ever stroll into a HD/Buell dealer and TRY to find information, brochures, accessories for a Buell? They never ever gave a rat's ass about "Buell fans". Buell was at best a sideline that was foisted upon the dealers by the corporate HQ in Milwaukee and they had to suffer the ignominy of having "s-s-s---sportbikes" taking up valuable real estate where acres of proud 'murican traditional loud pipes and chrome plating once stood.

Hell, the Buell bikes were buried at the back of the showroom, in an alcove off to the side which used to be someone's office until they kicked out 1 wall to make room for those (ugh) "sportbikes".

And even then, there were probably 4-6 Buells compared to the 100+ HD's lining the showroom and then have a look at the stickers on them, they were mostly 2 years old, with full MSRP still on them.

And then ask the HD salesman to explain the ZTL disc system and it's advantages over a conventional braking system.

Har de har har. It was so funny, I forgot to laugh.  



Now I rode an old tube-frame Buell in 2000 at a demo event, and I liked it, overall, never could find neutral, but if that could have been solved, it was a decent bike. Gobs of torque, so don't expect to ride it like a 600 supersport bike, and if I ever got the opportunity to ride a new 1125, I would jump at the chance.

And yes Brad, I would prefer they did something better/different with the pods.

That spyshot that was floating around immediately after the the demise of Buell was announced, "the bike that could have been" certainly looked like a step in the right direction. Another generation of Buell after the original 1125, throw in some different styling, and I think they would have had a winner.

I don't thing HD was ready for the potential Egg-on-face if Buell had gone superbike racing with some derivative of the 1125 Rotax motor and achieved success far beyond what the VR1000 ever attained.

[chornbe]

i still do not see why harley wont build a sportbike or two. if triumph can go from harley style cuiser to sportbike i dont see why harley can't. the new ceo can make profit and make his reputation a little bit better if he did something to please the buell fans. if the guy released a few of the XB models under the harley name it would be amazing. i would be interested again.

Seriously and objectively... who would buy them? The I4 guys would scoff, the Harley Guys (r) (tm) (c) would scoff. The 3 or 4 Buell owners who don't hate Harley-Davidson would consider it, for like a minute or three, but likely not buy.

[Tpoppa]

I don't thing HD was ready for the potential Egg-on-face if Buell had gone superbike racing with some derivative of the 1125 Rotax motor and achieved success far beyond what the VR1000 ever attained.

As much as no one wants to admit it...this is a significant part of the reason that Buell was closed.   Bruised egos and personal feelings were disguised as a business case and 'slid in' under the watch of brand new CEO.  

[Brad1445]

Harley is not dumb.  Thats why they bought Buell.  Thats why they payed to keep them afloat and pay for their research.

The only mistake Harley made was not firing all the Top Buell management including Erik after the 2008 1125r Launch.

Buell was not killed it committed suicide.

Supply and demand, and this market was not a good time to mess up a bike, and then leave it out to stink for 3 years.

[Kootenanny]

Buell was not killed it committed suicide.

You've said this many times...but, you're wrong.

[Tpoppa]

Harley is not dumb.  Thats why they bought Buell.  Thats why they payed to keep them afloat and pay for their research.

The only mistake Harley made was not firing all the Top Buell management including Erik after the 2008 1125r Launch.

Buell was not killed it committed suicide.

Supply and demand, and this market was not a good time to mess up a bike, and then leave it out to stink for 3 years.

Not Dumb?  Explain the MV purchase, then not clue what to do with it?
HD Paid for what research?  The Rotax mill was funded with profits from the Uly.
HD bigget mistake was tying Buell's hands in the HD boutiques, and keeping them out of dealers that know how to sell capable motorcycle.
Suicide?  That is laughable.
S&D?  How do you explain Buell growing faster than HD?

Thanks for posting your same tired errors again.  You better post the pod photo again.
 

[Brad1445]

My guess is they were going to use the MV to Replace the outdated XB line and the Non selling 1125 Series.

Why does everyone have to blame someone else for their problems.  Buell is gone because their customers were gone.  They blew a golden opportunity due to poor management and quality control.

Harley $$$ paid for this FYI.



and you say this was intentional,



Buell should be dead, but bring on the Harley branded bikes soon.  Done right there is demand for an American made full line of bikes.

But take the job serious this time, and drug test drug test drug test.

This is your bike


This is your bike on drugs

[BCRider13]

I find it funny how Buell fans don’t understand the Buell bikes.

ZTL is not the perimeter breaks, which have been around for a very long time.  The ZTL system is how the break is mounted to the rim.

The Thunderstorm engine isn’t a Sportster engine.  Rather it’s an engine based on the Sportster but with Buell engineering.  The Thunderstorm cranks out just over 100 HP where the Sportster 1200 is lucky to hit 50 HP.  Now a Sportster with a Thunderstorm engine would be interesting.

Buell by the numbers was insignificant in terms of sales with about 2% of overall HD revenue.  HD reduced production of the HD line in 2009 while it kept Buell the same or with a slight increase.  That’s why it looks like Buell was on the up tick in sales.  Keep in mind that the number HD gives are when a bike is shipped to the dealer, it doesn’t mean that the bike has been sold and dealers do have agreements with HD to purchase a certain number of bikes.

Some have speculated that Buell was shut down because there are those at the upper levels of HD that didn’t want Buell there in the first place.  That may be true.  Consider that James Zimmer was the CFO when HD and Buell went into business together and when HD purchased the majority of the company from Erik Buell.  Zimmer retired from his position as CEO in May 2009 and Buell was gone by the end of the year.

Why not sell Buell?

Parts sales.

The Thunderstorm engine would make a great engine for a CVO type Sportster.

The 1125 Helicon could be sold or licensed to another motorcycle company or be packaged as part of the MV Agusta sale.

If the HD Board didn’t want Buell around in the first place then best to take the heat for a short period of time then let the brand stay around.  No matter, even under someone else Buell would be at best a fringe bike in my opinion.

As for Buell attracting younger riders to HD, even if they never purchased cruisers, well that doesn’t make much sense.  First younger riders are not getting into motorcycling like they use to.  This isn’t just the cruiser market and this will hurt the motorcycling industry in the long run if that trend isn’t reversed.  Those young riders who do enter in the market as a group don’t have the money to pay for what a Buell costs.  They can get a great performing 600cc for a few thousand less then Buell and with a lower insurance rate.

In the end Buell was axed because of low sales, high R&D costs, Buell motorcycles not fitting into the HD brand and competing with other manufacturers who build better performing bikes at a lower cost.  

[Brad1445]

I find it funny how Buell fans don’t understand the Buell bikes.

ZTL is not the perimeter breaks, which have been around for a very long time.  The ZTL system is how the break is mounted to the rim.

The Thunderstorm engine isn’t a Sportster engine.  Rather it’s an engine based on the Sportster but with Buell engineering.  The Thunderstorm cranks out just over 100 HP where the Sportster 1200 is lucky to hit 50 HP.  Now a Sportster with a Thunderstorm engine would be interesting.

Buell by the numbers was insignificant in terms of sales with about 2% of overall HD revenue.  HD reduced production of the HD line in 2009 while it kept Buell the same or with a slight increase.  That’s why it looks like Buell was on the up tick in sales.  Keep in mind that the number HD gives are when a bike is shipped to the dealer, it doesn’t mean that the bike has been sold and dealers do have agreements with HD to purchase a certain number of bikes.

Some have speculated that Buell was shut down because there are those at the upper levels of HD that didn’t want Buell there in the first place.  That may be true.  Consider that James Zimmer was the CFO when HD and Buell went into business together and when HD purchased the majority of the company from Erik Buell.  Zimmer retired from his position as CEO in May 2009 and Buell was gone by the end of the year.

Why not sell Buell?

Parts sales.

The Thunderstorm engine would make a great engine for a CVO type Sportster.

The 1125 Helicon could be sold or licensed to another motorcycle company or be packaged as part of the MV Agusta sale.

If the HD Board didn’t want Buell around in the first place then best to take the heat for a short period of time then let the brand stay around.  No matter, even under someone else Buell would be at best a fringe bike in my opinion.

As for Buell attracting younger riders to HD, even if they never purchased cruisers, well that doesn’t make much sense.  First younger riders are not getting into motorcycling like they use to.  This isn’t just the cruiser market and this will hurt the motorcycling industry in the long run if that trend isn’t reversed.  Those young riders who do enter in the market as a group don’t have the money to pay for what a Buell costs.  They can get a great performing 600cc for a few thousand less then Buell and with a lower insurance rate.

In the end Buell was axed because of low sales, high R&D costs, Buell motorcycles not fitting into the HD brand and competing with other manufacturers who build better performing bikes at a lower cost.  

Well Said,
Very Articulate,
Right on Target!

[st ryder]

I find it funny how Buell fans don’t understand the Buell bikes.

ZTL is not the perimeter breaks, which have been around for a very long time.  The ZTL system is how the break is mounted to the rim.

"ZTL" is yet another reason I had to at Buell's marketing of their bikes, which I called Buell Shit years ago. Here they take a simple and pre-existing concept, and try and put a spin on it to make it sound better and original. Zero Torsional Load refers to the placement of the rotor from the wheel's hub to the wheel's perimeter, which reduces's torsional loading of the wheel's hub, so the wheel could then be made lighter, ie it reduced unspring weight. What they' don't tell you is that it increases gyroscopic effect and makes the wheel harder to turn. In the arena where patents have no jurisdiction, ie MotoGP, you will not find ZTL brakes, nor fuell in frame, nor side mounted radiator pods. I wonder why?  

"Gimmicks" like ZTL may have helped at one time to  sell bikes to a market segment whose constituents want to think they're buying a bike that comes with innovative and superior technology, but at racing's highest level, the BS stops. And from racing's highest level does leading edge technology trickle down to drive street bike development. Oddly, Buell, the company that once boasted it was first and foremost a sport/race bike company, built bikes that looked nothing the bikes that are *successfully* raced at the highest levels of racing. That speaks for itself as to the actual rather than perceived efficacy of their "different in every way" technology. Different? Yes. Better? Not so much.

As I mentioned before in a previous thread, and getting back to the original topic, if "the Canadians", or anybody else for that matter, did buy Buell, do you think they'd build 1125 models looking the same way? Highly unlikely IMO. They, BRP, were probaly just looking for a way to sell more of their Rotax engines, that's all. Also, I think the article does a lot to almost confirm that HD shutitng down Buell was as much a personal thing as a business thing, if not more. 

[Tpoppa]

I find it funny how Buell fans don’t understand the Buell bikes.

ZTL is not the perimeter breaks, which have been around for a very long time.  The ZTL system is how the break is mounted to the rim.

The Thunderstorm engine isn’t a Sportster engine.  Rather it’s an engine based on the Sportster but with Buell engineering.  The Thunderstorm cranks out just over 100 HP where the Sportster 1200 is lucky to hit 50 HP.  Now a Sportster with a Thunderstorm engine would be interesting.

Buell by the numbers was insignificant in terms of sales with about 2% of overall HD revenue.  HD reduced production of the HD line in 2009 while it kept Buell the same or with a slight increase.  That’s why it looks like Buell was on the up tick in sales.  Keep in mind that the number HD gives are when a bike is shipped to the dealer, it doesn’t mean that the bike has been sold and dealers do have agreements with HD to purchase a certain number of bikes.

Some have speculated that Buell was shut down because there are those at the upper levels of HD that didn’t want Buell there in the first place.  That may be true.  Consider that James Zimmer was the CFO when HD and Buell went into business together and when HD purchased the majority of the company from Erik Buell.  Zimmer retired from his position as CEO in May 2009 and Buell was gone by the end of the year.

Why not sell Buell?

Parts sales.

The Thunderstorm engine would make a great engine for a CVO type Sportster.

The 1125 Helicon could be sold or licensed to another motorcycle company or be packaged as part of the MV Agusta sale.

If the HD Board didn’t want Buell around in the first place then best to take the heat for a short period of time then let the brand stay around.  No matter, even under someone else Buell would be at best a fringe bike in my opinion.

As for Buell attracting younger riders to HD, even if they never purchased cruisers, well that doesn’t make much sense.  First younger riders are not getting into motorcycling like they use to.  This isn’t just the cruiser market and this will hurt the motorcycling industry in the long run if that trend isn’t reversed.  Those young riders who do enter in the market as a group don’t have the money to pay for what a Buell costs.  They can get a great performing 600cc for a few thousand less then Buell and with a lower insurance rate.

In the end Buell was axed because of low sales, high R&D costs, Buell motorcycles not fitting into the HD brand and competing with other manufacturers who build better performing bikes at a lower cost.  

Actually, the main benefit of the ZTL is lower unsprung weight which allows for better performance of the front suspension.  Because the rotor mounts to the rim and not the hub, the spokes don't need to be as strong and heavy because the don't take the brunt of the braking torsion.  It makes for the lightest front brake front wheel combo you can get on a sportbike.

Even if you fit a Thunderstorm motor in a Sportster it will make about 20 less HP that it makes in an XB.  The XB airbox and exhaust design account for much of the added HP.  The Sportster design cannot accomodate that type of airbox or exhaust.  

[BCRider13]

Actually, the main benefit of the ZTL is lower unsprung weight which allows for better performance of the front suspension.  Because the rotor mounts to the rim and not the hub, the spokes don't need to be as strong and heavy because the don't take the brunt of the braking torsion.  It makes for the lightest front brake front wheel combo you can get on a sportbike.

Even if you fit a Thunderstorm motor in a Sportster it will make about 20 less HP that it makes in an XB.  The XB airbox and exhaust design account for much of the added HP.  The Sportster design cannot accomodate that type of airbox or exhaust.  

That's the benefit of perimeter brakes but the ZTL patent is for the mounting mechanism to attach the perimeter brake to the rim.  The "torsion" in ZTL refers to the twisting that takes place in the rotor of conventional mounted perimeter brakes when expansion of the metal, due to heat under braking conditions, occurs.  Conventional mounts did not account for the radial expansion of the brake rotor which would cause torsional loads on the mount.  The ZTL mount accounts for this radial expansion in a simple and low cost method compared to previous systems and if you want a link to the patent information I'll be more then happy to post it.

Is a perimeter mounted brake better then other braking systems?  That's the real question here.

As for the Thunderstorm engine not working the same in a Sportster.  Your points are valid but the air box and exhaust ports not the only thing that's different between the two engines.  Besides 20 HP less is still 30 HP more then the current Sportster.  Personally, I would buy an 80 HP Sportster.

[Brad1445]

It may be cute but its not the best Brake design out there.  My experience includes many a warped rotor.  They don't handle heat as  well as a conventional two disc system.

[Kootenanny]

That's the benefit of perimeter brakes but the ZTL patent is for the mounting mechanism to attach the perimeter brake to the rim.  The "torsion" in ZTL refers to the twisting that takes place in the rotor of conventional mounted perimeter brakes when expansion of the metal, due to heat under braking conditions, occurs.  Conventional mounts did not account for the radial expansion of the brake rotor which would cause torsional loads on the mount.  The ZTL mount accounts for this radial expansion in a simple and low cost method compared to previous systems and if you want a link to the patent information I'll be more then happy to post it.

Is a perimeter mounted brake better then other braking systems?  That's the real question here.

While the patent may apply to the mounting system (because, as elsewhere mentioned, patents tend to be awarded to specific designs rather than overall concepts), as I understand it, the advantage of the ZTL braking system is that it eliminates (not "reduces"--eliminates) torque load from the hub and spokes.  The only forces the hub and spokes need to deal with are radial--inf fact, there is no way to introduce torque loads to them.  This means the hub and spokes can be much lighter than they'd have to be on a traditional wheel, which must be designed to handle torque loading.

Now, it's true that making the disc larger increases it's angular momentum, and therefore it's gyroscopic effect, but since the surface area is also increased, it allows the designer to get away with only one disc.  I'd suggest that the total angular momentum of one ZTL disc is no greater than two conventional discs.  And the overall weight is much lower, which does allow the front suspension to work more effectively.

Why is this system not used in the top tiers of racing?  I'm not completely versed in brake systems, but I can think of are a few reasons.  ZTL is not a more powerful brake, and although one large disc has more surface area than one smaller disc, it has less than two smaller discs, and in the kind of use race bikes put on brakes, higher surface area is required (to dissipate heat better, and thus resist fade).  And on smooth racecourse tarmac, front wheel weight may not be as important as increased braking power and better fade resistance.  I'm sure there are other reasons that I'm not aware of (but I do know that brake fade was a problem on some Buell XB-series bikes that were raced, to the point that some racers changed the front forks to allow for conventional brake setups--I will comment that I've never, ever experienced brake fade on my Buell, but then again, I'm not racing).

[Rogue]

I find it funny how Buell fans don’t understand the Buell bikes.

As for Buell attracting younger riders to HD, even if they never purchased cruisers, well that doesn’t make much sense.  First younger riders are not getting into motorcycling like they use to.  This isn’t just the cruiser market and this will hurt the motorcycling industry in the long run if that trend isn’t reversed.  Those young riders who do enter in the market as a group don’t have the money to pay for what a Buell costs.  They can get a great performing 600cc for a few thousand less then Buell and with a lower insurance rate.

In the end Buell was axed because of low sales, high R&D costs, Buell motorcycles not fitting into the HD brand and competing with other manufacturers who build better performing bikes at a lower cost.  

You of course being a Buell expert right?

Buell fans are the the ones who truely understand Buell.  You think H-D understands?  

Have you priced a 600 sportbike lately?  They are around $10 now.  The difference between a Buell Firebolt XB12R and a 600 SS bike was a mere $1k.  The difference between a 1000cc SS bike and the 1125R is the same $1k!  Also, most young buyers won't go for Buell anyway.  Young guys want the latest and greatest magazine test pet.  They also want the fastest.  Affordability has nothing to do with it when anyone with a co-signer can get a $10k sportbike.  $10k loan is nothing!  Even in this day Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, & Yamaha will gladly give out $10k loans all day to anyone who can prove some credit history and had some cash down.  H-D owned their own financial division so you bet your ass they were giving out loans left and right.  That's why that division was bleeding H-D dry because so many loans were not getting paid or were going to collections starting around 2008 then coming to a head in 2009.  The decision by H-D to absorb Buell in the beginning was to give them a conduit to develop higher performance machines that they can learn and apply onto their cruisers, as well as to bring customers into the H-D showrooms where they could sway them to buy a H-D instead of a Buell.  To a small degree they brought in younger customers, but to a greater degree they brought in people that would not otherwise be interested in buying a H-D.  

Buell also was a low volume manufacturer.  Even if they wanted to, they did not have the capacity to build that many bikes!  They were always a low volume sales manufacturer.  Nevertheless, unlike their Financial division, Buell was not a money looser to H-D.  Sure, they were a fly in an elephant's ass but they were not a burden except maybe the overhead that H-D needed to carry the brand, provide insurance, fringe benefits to employees, and dealership space and sales & marketing support.  In the larger scheme of things, H-D needed to put aside some funds to support Buell.  However, Buell was not contributing a negative income to H-D's Profit and Loss statement.  H-D dropped Buell because they wanted to divert ALL their resources in selling H-D only bikes.  Period.  All their sales and marketing efforts, all their overhead, all of it is now going into H-D bikes.  

Of course there is also that unspoken and intangible irritation with Erik Buell, Buell motorcycles, and sportbikes in general.  Like I said before, anything that is not cruiser related is anti-H-D.  You can smell & feel that a mile away from ANY H-D dealership.  Visit one, talk to the people in there, and see for yourself.   In my personal experience, most H-D dealership hated Buells and anything related to sportbikes.  If it's a metric bike or a crotch rocket, it was the enemy.  That whole generation of anti-import/sportbike riders riding H-D run the show around there.  I hated going to H-D dealers!  There was only one that I truely felt at home and that dealership pushed Buells with equal gusto as H-D's and they people in that dealership loved both and you can tell in the way they treated you.  All other dealerships, as soon as you utter the name "Buell", they directed you to that little corner spot where they had 3 Buells then ignored you the rest of the time!            

[Rogue]

The Thunderstorm engine isn’t a Sportster engine.  Rather it’s an engine based on the Sportster but with Buell engineering.  The Thunderstorm cranks out just over 100 HP where the Sportster 1200 is lucky to hit 50 HP.  Now a Sportster with a Thunderstorm engine would be interesting.

The Thunderstorm 1203 was designed by Buell and it shares many parts with the Sportster 1200 engine.  The difference is in the cylinder head, camshafts, and compression.  Sportsters get lower compression and lesser aggressive cams with smaller valves.  Buells get the higher compression, bigger valves, Digital Fuel Injection, and more aggressive camshafts.  The Sportster 1200 motor develops around 64 rwhp while the Buell 1203 engine developed 90 rwhp.  The Buell motor could also rev to 7k RPM, 7.2k RPM in 2008-2009.  Another big difference is in the mounting system.  Buell uses their Uni-Planar engine mount that isolates then cancels out engine vibration above idle without the use of rubber mounts.  This allows Buell to have a much lighter frame that is capable of absorbing the vibrations coming from a 45-degree V-twin.  The Sportsters uses rubber mounts on their 1200 V-twin, which they started to use in 2004.  It is smooth but much, much heavier than the Buell frame.  

The closest thing to a Thunderstorm engine in a Sportster is the XR1200, which btw uses a lot of the Buell Thunderstorm engine development.  Except for whatever reason H-D numbed the engine further.  Why?  Nobody knows except they seem to feel that 75 rwhp is more than enough for a bike that weighs 550 lbs.!  H-D then claims this is their "high performance" bike.  Personally, it is the first time that H-D actually built a bike that can run with a modern bike of the same class--the same class as a Triumph Thruxton!  This is Harley's idea of what HP is.  In the meantime, that same bike would have a hard time keeping up with a Lightning XB9S!    

[Kootenanny]

To a small degree they brought in younger customers, but to a greater degree they brought in people that would not otherwise be interested in buying a H-D.

Ya know, before I got interested in Buells, I had never been inside a Harley boutique.  It was a bit of a revelation.  When I bought my Firebolt, I knew considerably more about it than the salesman.  It was kinda funny, actually...here I was, explaining in detail the unique engineering on the Buell...then, once I'd bought it--and, BTW, after they'd allowed me to take one out for solo demo rides on more than one occasion--the salesman proceeds to show me, "This is the front brake, this is the throttle, this lever over here is the clutch...).  I told him I'd had my license since 1978 or so, and I used to teach motorcycling professionally, but apparently it is Harley company policy to run over the basics with any and every new customer, for liability reasons,  I guess...

In any case, I had never had any interest in H-Ds prior to this.  However, once I'd been around a few dealers (looking at Buells, and I had some minor warranty work done at one dealer that sponsors a race team and has Buell-specific techs), I actually found myself wondering about Harleys.  I'm getting older, and a lot of guys seem to like them, and actually some of them look pretty good (XR1200...and I've seen a few "dirt-tracker inspired" customs).  However now that H-D has killed Buell--no matter what the reason--they've ensured that I, for one, will never purchase a Harley product!

[Tpoppa]

It may be cute but its not the best Brake design out there.  My experience includes many a warped rotor.  They don't handle heat as  well as a conventional two disc system.

Are you sure about that?  The stock pads were prone to leaving deposits on the rotor which could feel like pulsing.  A few HD dealers misdiagnosed this as warped rotors.  You could clean the deposits with a Scotch Brite pad or just switch pads to Lyndalls, etc.  With thousands of Buell riders on Badweb, I've never seen a thread with a rotor that was actually warped.

[Tpoppa]

Is a perimeter mounted brake better then other braking systems?  That's the real question here.

Better is subjective.  It seemed to do just fine in DSB and Superbike.

You don't see ZTL in MotoGP because they use far more exotic materials with advantages that aren't able to be duplicated in streetbikes without adding lots of $$.  The carbon fiber wheels & rotors on Moto GP bikes probably cost more than most of the street bikes on the road today.

[Kootenanny]

You don't see ZTL in MotoGP because they use far more exotic materials with advantages that aren't able to be duplicated in streetbikes without adding lots of $$.  

Never mind the money--you could lift the brakes off Rossi's bike and slap 'em on your own and you'd hate 'em!  Unless you're braking hard at 200 mph every few seconds, you'd never get 'em hot enough to work as designed...  

That said, if they were made available to the average Joe, I'll bet every squid would just have to have 'em, never mind how well they work...just think of the bragging rights!

[BCRider13]

You of course being a Buell expert right?

Buell fans are the the ones who truely understand Buell.  You think H-D understands?  

Have you priced a 600 sportbike lately?  They are around $10 now.  The difference between a Buell Firebolt XB12R and a 600 SS bike was a mere $1k.  The difference between a 1000cc SS bike and the 1125R is the same $1k!  Also, most young buyers won't go for Buell anyway.  Young guys want the latest and greatest magazine test pet.  They also want the fastest.  Affordability has nothing to do with it when anyone with a co-signer can get a $10k sportbike.  $10k loan is nothing!  Even in this day Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, & Yamaha will gladly give out $10k loans all day to anyone who can prove some credit history and had some cash down.  H-D owned their own financial division so you bet your ass they were giving out loans left and right.  That's why that division was bleeding H-D dry because so many loans were not getting paid or were going to collections starting around 2008 then coming to a head in 2009.  The decision by H-D to absorb Buell in the beginning was to give them a conduit to develop higher performance machines that they can learn and apply onto their cruisers, as well as to bring customers into the H-D showrooms where they could sway them to buy a H-D instead of a Buell.  To a small degree they brought in younger customers, but to a greater degree they brought in people that would not otherwise be interested in buying a H-D.  

Buell also was a low volume manufacturer.  Even if they wanted to, they did not have the capacity to build that many bikes!  They were always a low volume sales manufacturer.  Nevertheless, unlike their Financial division, Buell was not a money looser to H-D.  Sure, they were a fly in an elephant's ass but they were not a burden except maybe the overhead that H-D needed to carry the brand, provide insurance, fringe benefits to employees, and dealership space and sales & marketing support.  In the larger scheme of things, H-D needed to put aside some funds to support Buell.  However, Buell was not contributing a negative income to H-D's Profit and Loss statement.  H-D dropped Buell because they wanted to divert ALL their resources in selling H-D only bikes.  Period.  All their sales and marketing efforts, all their overhead, all of it is now going into H-D bikes.  

Of course there is also that unspoken and intangible irritation with Erik Buell, Buell motorcycles, and sportbikes in general.  Like I said before, anything that is not cruiser related is anti-H-D.  You can smell & feel that a mile away from ANY H-D dealership.  Visit one, talk to the people in there, and see for yourself.   In my personal experience, most H-D dealership hated Buells and anything related to sportbikes.  If it's a metric bike or a crotch rocket, it was the enemy.  That whole generation of anti-import/sportbike riders riding H-D run the show around there.  I hated going to H-D dealers!  There was only one that I truely felt at home and that dealership pushed Buells with equal gusto as H-D's and they people in that dealership loved both and you can tell in the way they treated you.  All other dealerships, as soon as you utter the name "Buell", they directed you to that little corner spot where they had 3 Buells then ignored you the rest of the time!            

You're right, I'm not an expert on Buell motorcycles.  Never said I was.  I do, however, stick by my observation that the average Buell fan isn't either.

I agree with you that Buell fans are the only one's who truly understand Buell and that HD doesn't.  Unfortunately for Buell the fans were few and HD finally got what Erik Buell knew all along; sport bike riders, in general, are not cruiser riders and cruiser riders, in general are not sport bike riders.  If the HD management at the time had realized this, there is a very good chance that Buell Motorcycles would have gone under long ago.

Was Buell a money loser?  Who knows.  HD only reports sales by division but lumps expenses together so there is no way of telling unless HD releases those figures.  

As for the cost difference for 2010 models, you're right again.  It wasn't always that way though.  I agree that if a young rider wants a sport bike, and has the money for one, they are more likely to go after a metric then a Buell.  The sport bike market is competitive and HD would have had to pour more money into R&D and advertising to match the metrics and change the minds of the typical sport bike rider.  I'm sure that factored into the decision to shut Buell down.

Again, I have no doubt there was a desire by some of the HD board to end Buell.  This feeling was probably there from the beginning of the relationship with Buell, however the HD management at the time did have the impression (hope) that Buell could bring the younger rider to the dealerships and financially, times were very good for the Motor Company.  A few members of this same management team, with Mr. Zimmer as CFO and then CEO, were also responsible for HD Financing and the purchase of MV Agusta.  We all know how that turned out.  Well those people have retired, a new management team is in place and changes have been made.  Will they work? Time will tell.

[Kootenanny]

Unfortunately for Buell the fans were few and HD finally got what Erik Buell knew all along; sport bike riders, in general, are not cruiser riders and cruiser riders, in general are not sport bike riders.  If the HD management at the time had realized this, there is a very good chance that Buell Motorcycles would have gone under long ago.

Why do you say this?  Had H-D management understood long ago the extent of the difference in mindset, it's possible that Buell might have been allowed to step outside the H-D dealer network--or, possibly, the Buell dealer "adjustment" might have happened right off the bat (a few years ago, many H-D dealers were culled from carrying Buell--to keep Buell, the dealers had to show some knowledge of the brand, and put effort into display and sales).  Who knows, maybe Erik would have gotten his LC engine sooner.  In any case, I believe that a better understanding of the sportbike market might have gotten Buell to the point where H-D couldn't just shut it down.

[Rogue]

....HD finally got what Erik Buell knew all along; sport bike riders, in general, are not cruiser riders and cruiser riders, in general are not sport bike riders.  

Excellent point and well said.  

These two groups simply do NOT mix.

It's like driving a 1970 Cadillac together with a 2010 Corvette.  They may be brothers from the same maker but their performance differential and riding regiment are on opposite ends of the scale!  No way they will mix and admirers of one will not like the other make.

[Baz]

Had BRP bought Buell, they would have gotten the factory, tooled up to produce all the bikes in production, and an experienced workforce.  It wouldn't have been a "rebirth" of Buell, but rather a continuation.  

BRP already owns Rotax, so they would have owned the 1125R in entirety (I don't know that Rotax "owns" the Helicon engine...when H-D bought out the contract, they may well have retained rights to the engine).  

Buell may be a small player in the overall motorcycle market, but so is BRP...and the Buell name is well known, even if their sale numbers are small.  Hey, MV Agusta isn't exactly a powerhouse builder either, but most of us recognize that name, too.  And Buells could well  have been sold through existing BRP dealers...not as extensive as H-D, but then again, we all sort of agree that most H-D dealers were not really that effective with Buells.  A smaller production company may not need such a huge dealer network.

Kootenany:

I have no idea about the Buell operation and I am going only by an interview with HD's CEO on CNBC one afternoon.

He stated on the show that they could not physically split Buell up as in a lot of cases they shared the same factory floors with HD. (He stated that this would have been his preferred method of disposing of Buell) There would have also been huge union issues if they could have just split things up. There were also patent issues etc. It was not just a factory and some real estate they could sign off on.

I would agree with you on your comment that HD dealers did nothing to sell the Buell name for sure, but really, without a dealer network, you would require years just to begin selling a new bike. (Or a re-badged Buell)

Yes, BHP does have a dealer network, but it is a little skewed. They sell quads & jet skis in a few MC dealers here, but those dealers already carry bikes, so I am not sure in this day & age how many BHP dealers would take on a Buell line up. (Those dealers have agreements with Honda, Suzuki etc that sometimes are not easy to break or alter.)  

I am pretty convinced that if you are going to sell a new motorcycle line these days, it had better be a whole lot better than what is out there now. I am not sure Buell ever fit that mould.  

And yea, MV has been a cash bleed for years, but it does carry clout in Europe. Bombardier has always done very well in Europe (A tough place to do business). I think it would be a better fit for them if the Buell sale came with no dealer support.  

[BCRider13]

Why do you say this?  Had H-D management understood long ago the extent of the difference in mindset, it's possible that Buell might have been allowed to step outside the H-D dealer network--or, possibly, the Buell dealer "adjustment" might have happened right off the bat (a few years ago, many H-D dealers were culled from carrying Buell--to keep Buell, the dealers had to show some knowledge of the brand, and put effort into display and sales).  Who knows, maybe Erik would have gotten his LC engine sooner.  In any case, I believe that a better understanding of the sportbike market might have gotten Buell to the point where H-D couldn't just shut it down.

Take a look at the interview with Erik Buell in the July 2008 edition of Motorcyclist.  This was pre-financial melt down and Buell was very up-beat on the future of Buell Motorcycles.  One part of the interview explains HD's view of Buell quite well.

"The first 10 years, in my opinion, we wasted a lot of time trying to get sportbike guys into Harley dealerships," Buell says.  "In the beginning, Buell was looked at like a gateway drug to a Harley.  The idea was Buell buyers would come back and trade their Buells for Harley-Davidsons.  That was fundamentally flawed.  Sportbike guys are never going to be cruiser guys.  I should know.  I'll never be a cruiser guy, until the day I die."

From the interview it appears the Buell was open to the partnership with HD.  It kept Buell Motorcycles alive and offered a dealer network, which Buell didn't have.  HD on the other hand was looking at the partnership as a way to get more riders into HD dealerships and eventually buy HD bikes.  Also from the interview, Buell felt that HD management at the time had changed their point of view and were open to building Buell as a stand-alone sportbike brand.  Then the financial wheels came off the bus and the Buell division fell victim to the cuts HD made when the new management, no doubt with board approval, made the decision to be HD only.

[Kootenanny]

From the interview it appears the Buell was open to the partnership with HD.  It kept Buell Motorcycles alive and offered a dealer network, which Buell didn't have.  HD on the other hand was looking at the partnership as a way to get more riders into HD dealerships and eventually buy HD bikes.  Also from the interview, Buell felt that HD management at the time had changed their point of view and were open to building Buell as a stand-alone sportbike brand.  Then the financial wheels came off the bus and the Buell division fell victim to the cuts HD made when the new management, no doubt with board approval, made the decision to be HD only.

Yes, exactly.  So why do you say H-D would have killed Buell years ago?  Buell was always held as a separate entity from H-D, and H-D management was beginning to understand the market.  They were moving in the right direction.  You suggest that, had H-D been quicker to recognize the differences in market, they would have killed Buell sooner...I'm saying that, had they recognized the differences sooner, they would have moved sooner to set it apart, and Buell may well have survived.

[Kootenanny]

...He stated on the show that they could not physically split Buell up as in a lot of cases they shared the same factory floors with HD. (He stated that this would have been his preferred method of disposing of Buell) There would have also been huge union issues if they could have just split things up. There were also patent issues etc. It was not just a factory and some real estate they could sign off on.

Baz, all Buells were assembled in the Buell plant in East Troy, Wisconsin.  The only factory space "shared" with H-D involved the Thunderstorm engine, which was manufactured in a Harley engine factory (basically, it is a Sportster engine with modifications, built to Buell specs by H-D for Buell).  AFAIK, other than a few minor parts (turn signals, for example) there is nothing else shared with H-D, and certainly nothing else built by H-D for Buell.  The frame and swingarm on my Buell were built in Italy, the controls are from Japan (it uses the same brake lever as some GSX-Rs), much of the electronics are Italian, the shocks are Japanese, and I believe the wheels are made in China.  The body pieces are made in the States, but not by Harley.  

I'd heard the "it's too integrated to sell separately" argument too, but...well, BRP's initial offer was to buy the rights to the Rotax-powered bikes only, and AFAIK there is NO "integration" of that bike with H-D.  They then offered to buy rights to all the bikes--OK< so they build XBs as well, they gotta buy engines from H-D--what's the problem with that?  H-D is already tooled up and building them, they'd simply keep building them and sell them to BRP (hey, a ready-made supply contract handed to them on a silver platter...).  

There may have been some "union issues," but hell--even the most stubborn union would probably be willing to deal in order to keep a couple of hundred jobs alive.  And patent issues...well, they're part of the deal, H-D certainly has no use for 'em (it's not like they're gonna be putting fuel-in-frame or ZTL brakes on Fatboys).  

No, I smell double-talk.  As I understand it, under American financial rules, H-D stood to gain a huge tax advantage by writing off Buell rather than selling it.  There were obviously reasons they did what they did, but I don't believe the "too integrated" BS for a minute.  Yes, there was some integration, but it wasn't as much as H-D claims, and really, it could have been worked around.

And yea, MV has been a cash bleed for years, but it does carry clout in Europe. Bombardier has always done very well in Europe (A tough place to do business). I think it would be a better fit for them if the Buell sale came with no dealer support.  

Buell did well in Europe, too.  Better than in North America.  I believe MV Agusta was a good purchase for H-D, if they'd followed through with it.  Unfortunately, their timing was poor--the recession kinda took the wind out of their sails.  The original plan was to keep MV Agusta going with changes to the upper management only--design, manufacture, and location wouldn't change.  H-D would supply an infusion of cash right away, then build a market for the bikes in NA and worldwide, and eventually rule the world! (insert diabolical laughter)  It coulda worked, too, if the recession hadn't happened, and H-D management hadn't got cold feet.  But, as it is, they bought it, held it for a year while doing nothing at all with it, and now they're gonna unload it.  As shortsighted as shutting down Buell.

[BCRider13]

Yes, exactly.  So why do you say H-D would have killed Buell years ago?  Buell was always held as a separate entity from H-D, and H-D management was beginning to understand the market.  They were moving in the right direction.  You suggest that, had H-D been quicker to recognize the differences in market, they would have killed Buell sooner...I'm saying that, had they recognized the differences sooner, they would have moved sooner to set it apart, and Buell may well have survived.

I'm suggesting that if HD had understood that sportbikes wouldn't bring new riders into the dealerships to buy HD motorcycles that they wouldn't have invested in Buell in the first place.  

[Kootenanny]

I'm suggesting that if HD had understood that sportbikes wouldn't bring new riders into the dealerships to buy HD motorcycles that they wouldn't have invested in Buell in the first place.  

OK, I'll buy that.  But...I get the feeling that, when H-D originally bought into Buell, the people involved were thinking more along the lines of, "A Harley sport bike--cool!"  And they DID bring new riders into H-D dealers--hey, they brought ME in, and I bought one!  

The idea that Buells would eventually lead to Harley sales, though...I think that idea was how they sold the idea of the Blast (which H-D asked Buell to design and build AFAIK), and it gradually grew to include all of Buell, at least in the minds of Harley brass.  

Harley has done very well for itself in developing loyalty among it's customers.  Perhaps they were hoping to expand that idea to include other segments of the market...unfortunately, the very things that inspire loyalty among the Harley faithful are so distasteful to the sportbike crowd, many dismissed the bikes out of hand without ever riding one.  Dunno if Harley realizes that only a few iconoclasts would actually brave the derision of their fellows to enter a Harley boutique and even look at Buells...

[Rogue]

Koot,  you are making a lot of excellent points.

I will add that the reason Buell enthusiasts so rejected H-D is because of what it represented.  H-D is all about style and nostalgia.  Meanwhile, Buell was all about function and performance.  These two are a direct clash of cultures.

BTW, the early years of the XB's had Buell sourcing the frame from Italy.  Later on the frame was built in the US.  

[Rogue]

No, I smell double-talk.  As I understand it, under American financial rules, H-D stood to gain a huge tax advantage by writing off Buell rather than selling it.  There were obviously reasons they did what they did, but I don't believe the "too integrated" BS for a minute.  Yes, there was some integration, but it wasn't as much as H-D claims, and really, it could have been worked around.

Don't believe for a moment what most Corporations say in public.  It is all political BS!  I've worked in enough publicly traded companies to know that what CEO's and CFO's say to Wall Street Analysts is rarely ever the whole truth.  They will almost always spin it to whatever makes the company look good (or not so bad).  

Ever hear of the statement that comes after they fire someone high up?  They always say this person went to "pursue other opportunities."    BS!  They fired him!  It's the same with public announcement.

[Kootenanny]

The board at H-D:

[falconati]

Take us to your leader head merchandiser!

[Rogue]

LOL!  

Nice one Koot!

[BCRider13]

I will add that the reason Buell enthusiasts so rejected H-D is because of what it represented.  H-D is all about style and nostalgia.  Meanwhile, Buell was all about function and performance.  These two are a direct clash of cultures.

This statement is spot on for the most part and a reason why the Buell division was an easy target for being shut down when times got tough for the Motor Company.  Like it or not the bulk of HD revenue is from HD branded products and the new brass are betting that it's better to spend time and money supporting the HD brand then be fragmented with Buell and MV Agusta.  

As for not selling Buell, a lot not being said (and HD isn't obliged to say anything).  Yes they are spending a lot of money shutting down the division but what they are not saying is how much they will take in with parts sales, potentially licensing some of the patents that came from Buell and savings in taxes and wages over the next few years.

At this point it really doesn't matter as firing up Buell would be basically be like starting a new company but without the start-up R&D costs.

[Brad1445]

....................

At this point it really doesn't matter as firing up Buell would be basically be like starting a new company but without the start-up R&D costs.

I politely disagree as the lack of product was a big factor in having to close shop.

[wbrisett]

This statement is spot on for the most part and a reason why the Buell division was an easy target for being shut down when times got tough for the Motor Company.  Like it or not the bulk of HD revenue is from HD branded products and the new brass are betting that it's better to spend time and money supporting the HD brand then be fragmented with Buell and MV Agusta.  

If sales from the two local HD dealerships are any indication, 2010 is going to be a real downer for HD... Mind you we've had colder weather than normal for Texas, but even in the winter sales are usually pretty good since we can ride year round. However, according to the sales managers at both locations, sales aren't great. But then HD has had to tighten up their lending policies and as one of the sales managers told me, that has really hurt sales since they have had to turn people away. The flip side is, why would you want to sell a bike, just to take it back as a repo six to nine months from now? That's what got them into trouble before.

Wayne

[Rogue]

That's because H-D is strictly a company that sells high end products now.  They don't sell anything much below $10k.  Their entry level bike is the Sportster 883 and it's only for girls.  And who would want that lump of shit when you can get an equivalent Ninja 250 for less yet still go faster?  Okay, how about a kawasaki ER-n or Suzuki Gladius?  Hell, Triumph's Bonneville is so much better!  Of course none of those are Harleys!  

[chornbe]

Range Rover and Ferarri only build to certain classes of customers, too.

[wbrisett]

Their entry level bike is the Sportster 883 and it's only for girls.   

I'll let you tell that to my buddy Declan who has been riding an touring on Sportys exclusively now for about 25 years.  

[BCRider13]

That's because H-D is strictly a company that sells high end products now.  They don't sell anything much below $10k.  Their entry level bike is the Sportster 883 and it's only for girls.  And who would want that lump of shit when you can get an equivalent Ninja 250 for less yet still go faster?  Okay, how about a kawasaki ER-n or Suzuki Gladius?  Hell, Triumph's Bonneville is so much better!  Of course none of those are Harleys!  

Actually the MSP on a new Sportster 883 is about $7,000.00 and you can pick up a low mileage used one for significantly less.  All the bikes you mentioned are great entry level bikes and in the case of the Sportster a low cost entry into the Bar and Shield cult.  None of the bikes mentioned would be considered technologically advanced or high performance but they are easy to ride, fun and reliable.  The price is right too.

What does this have to do with Buell?  Well, on average for every Buell motorcycle shipped to a dealer, 6 Sportsters were shipped.  My guess is the profit margin on the Sportster is better then the Buell too.

[chornbe]

I know there was a $1000 padded into my Sportie, 'cause I got it for $6000, new. It's a base 883.