Harley Rejected BRP Offer to Buy Buell

[BCRider13]

Actually, the main benefit of the ZTL is lower unsprung weight which allows for better performance of the front suspension.  Because the rotor mounts to the rim and not the hub, the spokes don't need to be as strong and heavy because the don't take the brunt of the braking torsion.  It makes for the lightest front brake front wheel combo you can get on a sportbike.

Even if you fit a Thunderstorm motor in a Sportster it will make about 20 less HP that it makes in an XB.  The XB airbox and exhaust design account for much of the added HP.  The Sportster design cannot accomodate that type of airbox or exhaust.  

That's the benefit of perimeter brakes but the ZTL patent is for the mounting mechanism to attach the perimeter brake to the rim.  The "torsion" in ZTL refers to the twisting that takes place in the rotor of conventional mounted perimeter brakes when expansion of the metal, due to heat under braking conditions, occurs.  Conventional mounts did not account for the radial expansion of the brake rotor which would cause torsional loads on the mount.  The ZTL mount accounts for this radial expansion in a simple and low cost method compared to previous systems and if you want a link to the patent information I'll be more then happy to post it.

Is a perimeter mounted brake better then other braking systems?  That's the real question here.

As for the Thunderstorm engine not working the same in a Sportster.  Your points are valid but the air box and exhaust ports not the only thing that's different between the two engines.  Besides 20 HP less is still 30 HP more then the current Sportster.  Personally, I would buy an 80 HP Sportster.

[Brad1445]

It may be cute but its not the best Brake design out there.  My experience includes many a warped rotor.  They don't handle heat as  well as a conventional two disc system.

[Kootenanny]

That's the benefit of perimeter brakes but the ZTL patent is for the mounting mechanism to attach the perimeter brake to the rim.  The "torsion" in ZTL refers to the twisting that takes place in the rotor of conventional mounted perimeter brakes when expansion of the metal, due to heat under braking conditions, occurs.  Conventional mounts did not account for the radial expansion of the brake rotor which would cause torsional loads on the mount.  The ZTL mount accounts for this radial expansion in a simple and low cost method compared to previous systems and if you want a link to the patent information I'll be more then happy to post it.

Is a perimeter mounted brake better then other braking systems?  That's the real question here.

While the patent may apply to the mounting system (because, as elsewhere mentioned, patents tend to be awarded to specific designs rather than overall concepts), as I understand it, the advantage of the ZTL braking system is that it eliminates (not "reduces"--eliminates) torque load from the hub and spokes.  The only forces the hub and spokes need to deal with are radial--inf fact, there is no way to introduce torque loads to them.  This means the hub and spokes can be much lighter than they'd have to be on a traditional wheel, which must be designed to handle torque loading.

Now, it's true that making the disc larger increases it's angular momentum, and therefore it's gyroscopic effect, but since the surface area is also increased, it allows the designer to get away with only one disc.  I'd suggest that the total angular momentum of one ZTL disc is no greater than two conventional discs.  And the overall weight is much lower, which does allow the front suspension to work more effectively.

Why is this system not used in the top tiers of racing?  I'm not completely versed in brake systems, but I can think of are a few reasons.  ZTL is not a more powerful brake, and although one large disc has more surface area than one smaller disc, it has less than two smaller discs, and in the kind of use race bikes put on brakes, higher surface area is required (to dissipate heat better, and thus resist fade).  And on smooth racecourse tarmac, front wheel weight may not be as important as increased braking power and better fade resistance.  I'm sure there are other reasons that I'm not aware of (but I do know that brake fade was a problem on some Buell XB-series bikes that were raced, to the point that some racers changed the front forks to allow for conventional brake setups--I will comment that I've never, ever experienced brake fade on my Buell, but then again, I'm not racing).

[Rogue]

I find it funny how Buell fans don’t understand the Buell bikes.

As for Buell attracting younger riders to HD, even if they never purchased cruisers, well that doesn’t make much sense.  First younger riders are not getting into motorcycling like they use to.  This isn’t just the cruiser market and this will hurt the motorcycling industry in the long run if that trend isn’t reversed.  Those young riders who do enter in the market as a group don’t have the money to pay for what a Buell costs.  They can get a great performing 600cc for a few thousand less then Buell and with a lower insurance rate.

In the end Buell was axed because of low sales, high R&D costs, Buell motorcycles not fitting into the HD brand and competing with other manufacturers who build better performing bikes at a lower cost.  

You of course being a Buell expert right?

Buell fans are the the ones who truely understand Buell.  You think H-D understands?  

Have you priced a 600 sportbike lately?  They are around $10 now.  The difference between a Buell Firebolt XB12R and a 600 SS bike was a mere $1k.  The difference between a 1000cc SS bike and the 1125R is the same $1k!  Also, most young buyers won't go for Buell anyway.  Young guys want the latest and greatest magazine test pet.  They also want the fastest.  Affordability has nothing to do with it when anyone with a co-signer can get a $10k sportbike.  $10k loan is nothing!  Even in this day Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, & Yamaha will gladly give out $10k loans all day to anyone who can prove some credit history and had some cash down.  H-D owned their own financial division so you bet your ass they were giving out loans left and right.  That's why that division was bleeding H-D dry because so many loans were not getting paid or were going to collections starting around 2008 then coming to a head in 2009.  The decision by H-D to absorb Buell in the beginning was to give them a conduit to develop higher performance machines that they can learn and apply onto their cruisers, as well as to bring customers into the H-D showrooms where they could sway them to buy a H-D instead of a Buell.  To a small degree they brought in younger customers, but to a greater degree they brought in people that would not otherwise be interested in buying a H-D.  

Buell also was a low volume manufacturer.  Even if they wanted to, they did not have the capacity to build that many bikes!  They were always a low volume sales manufacturer.  Nevertheless, unlike their Financial division, Buell was not a money looser to H-D.  Sure, they were a fly in an elephant's ass but they were not a burden except maybe the overhead that H-D needed to carry the brand, provide insurance, fringe benefits to employees, and dealership space and sales & marketing support.  In the larger scheme of things, H-D needed to put aside some funds to support Buell.  However, Buell was not contributing a negative income to H-D's Profit and Loss statement.  H-D dropped Buell because they wanted to divert ALL their resources in selling H-D only bikes.  Period.  All their sales and marketing efforts, all their overhead, all of it is now going into H-D bikes.  

Of course there is also that unspoken and intangible irritation with Erik Buell, Buell motorcycles, and sportbikes in general.  Like I said before, anything that is not cruiser related is anti-H-D.  You can smell & feel that a mile away from ANY H-D dealership.  Visit one, talk to the people in there, and see for yourself.   In my personal experience, most H-D dealership hated Buells and anything related to sportbikes.  If it's a metric bike or a crotch rocket, it was the enemy.  That whole generation of anti-import/sportbike riders riding H-D run the show around there.  I hated going to H-D dealers!  There was only one that I truely felt at home and that dealership pushed Buells with equal gusto as H-D's and they people in that dealership loved both and you can tell in the way they treated you.  All other dealerships, as soon as you utter the name "Buell", they directed you to that little corner spot where they had 3 Buells then ignored you the rest of the time!            

[Rogue]

The Thunderstorm engine isn’t a Sportster engine.  Rather it’s an engine based on the Sportster but with Buell engineering.  The Thunderstorm cranks out just over 100 HP where the Sportster 1200 is lucky to hit 50 HP.  Now a Sportster with a Thunderstorm engine would be interesting.

The Thunderstorm 1203 was designed by Buell and it shares many parts with the Sportster 1200 engine.  The difference is in the cylinder head, camshafts, and compression.  Sportsters get lower compression and lesser aggressive cams with smaller valves.  Buells get the higher compression, bigger valves, Digital Fuel Injection, and more aggressive camshafts.  The Sportster 1200 motor develops around 64 rwhp while the Buell 1203 engine developed 90 rwhp.  The Buell motor could also rev to 7k RPM, 7.2k RPM in 2008-2009.  Another big difference is in the mounting system.  Buell uses their Uni-Planar engine mount that isolates then cancels out engine vibration above idle without the use of rubber mounts.  This allows Buell to have a much lighter frame that is capable of absorbing the vibrations coming from a 45-degree V-twin.  The Sportsters uses rubber mounts on their 1200 V-twin, which they started to use in 2004.  It is smooth but much, much heavier than the Buell frame.  

The closest thing to a Thunderstorm engine in a Sportster is the XR1200, which btw uses a lot of the Buell Thunderstorm engine development.  Except for whatever reason H-D numbed the engine further.  Why?  Nobody knows except they seem to feel that 75 rwhp is more than enough for a bike that weighs 550 lbs.!  H-D then claims this is their "high performance" bike.  Personally, it is the first time that H-D actually built a bike that can run with a modern bike of the same class--the same class as a Triumph Thruxton!  This is Harley's idea of what HP is.  In the meantime, that same bike would have a hard time keeping up with a Lightning XB9S!    

[Kootenanny]

To a small degree they brought in younger customers, but to a greater degree they brought in people that would not otherwise be interested in buying a H-D.

Ya know, before I got interested in Buells, I had never been inside a Harley boutique.  It was a bit of a revelation.  When I bought my Firebolt, I knew considerably more about it than the salesman.  It was kinda funny, actually...here I was, explaining in detail the unique engineering on the Buell...then, once I'd bought it--and, BTW, after they'd allowed me to take one out for solo demo rides on more than one occasion--the salesman proceeds to show me, "This is the front brake, this is the throttle, this lever over here is the clutch...).  I told him I'd had my license since 1978 or so, and I used to teach motorcycling professionally, but apparently it is Harley company policy to run over the basics with any and every new customer, for liability reasons,  I guess...

In any case, I had never had any interest in H-Ds prior to this.  However, once I'd been around a few dealers (looking at Buells, and I had some minor warranty work done at one dealer that sponsors a race team and has Buell-specific techs), I actually found myself wondering about Harleys.  I'm getting older, and a lot of guys seem to like them, and actually some of them look pretty good (XR1200...and I've seen a few "dirt-tracker inspired" customs).  However now that H-D has killed Buell--no matter what the reason--they've ensured that I, for one, will never purchase a Harley product!

[Tpoppa]

It may be cute but its not the best Brake design out there.  My experience includes many a warped rotor.  They don't handle heat as  well as a conventional two disc system.

Are you sure about that?  The stock pads were prone to leaving deposits on the rotor which could feel like pulsing.  A few HD dealers misdiagnosed this as warped rotors.  You could clean the deposits with a Scotch Brite pad or just switch pads to Lyndalls, etc.  With thousands of Buell riders on Badweb, I've never seen a thread with a rotor that was actually warped.

[Tpoppa]

Is a perimeter mounted brake better then other braking systems?  That's the real question here.

Better is subjective.  It seemed to do just fine in DSB and Superbike.

You don't see ZTL in MotoGP because they use far more exotic materials with advantages that aren't able to be duplicated in streetbikes without adding lots of $$.  The carbon fiber wheels & rotors on Moto GP bikes probably cost more than most of the street bikes on the road today.

[Kootenanny]

You don't see ZTL in MotoGP because they use far more exotic materials with advantages that aren't able to be duplicated in streetbikes without adding lots of $$.  

Never mind the money--you could lift the brakes off Rossi's bike and slap 'em on your own and you'd hate 'em!  Unless you're braking hard at 200 mph every few seconds, you'd never get 'em hot enough to work as designed...  

That said, if they were made available to the average Joe, I'll bet every squid would just have to have 'em, never mind how well they work...just think of the bragging rights!

[BCRider13]

You of course being a Buell expert right?

Buell fans are the the ones who truely understand Buell.  You think H-D understands?  

Have you priced a 600 sportbike lately?  They are around $10 now.  The difference between a Buell Firebolt XB12R and a 600 SS bike was a mere $1k.  The difference between a 1000cc SS bike and the 1125R is the same $1k!  Also, most young buyers won't go for Buell anyway.  Young guys want the latest and greatest magazine test pet.  They also want the fastest.  Affordability has nothing to do with it when anyone with a co-signer can get a $10k sportbike.  $10k loan is nothing!  Even in this day Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, & Yamaha will gladly give out $10k loans all day to anyone who can prove some credit history and had some cash down.  H-D owned their own financial division so you bet your ass they were giving out loans left and right.  That's why that division was bleeding H-D dry because so many loans were not getting paid or were going to collections starting around 2008 then coming to a head in 2009.  The decision by H-D to absorb Buell in the beginning was to give them a conduit to develop higher performance machines that they can learn and apply onto their cruisers, as well as to bring customers into the H-D showrooms where they could sway them to buy a H-D instead of a Buell.  To a small degree they brought in younger customers, but to a greater degree they brought in people that would not otherwise be interested in buying a H-D.  

Buell also was a low volume manufacturer.  Even if they wanted to, they did not have the capacity to build that many bikes!  They were always a low volume sales manufacturer.  Nevertheless, unlike their Financial division, Buell was not a money looser to H-D.  Sure, they were a fly in an elephant's ass but they were not a burden except maybe the overhead that H-D needed to carry the brand, provide insurance, fringe benefits to employees, and dealership space and sales & marketing support.  In the larger scheme of things, H-D needed to put aside some funds to support Buell.  However, Buell was not contributing a negative income to H-D's Profit and Loss statement.  H-D dropped Buell because they wanted to divert ALL their resources in selling H-D only bikes.  Period.  All their sales and marketing efforts, all their overhead, all of it is now going into H-D bikes.  

Of course there is also that unspoken and intangible irritation with Erik Buell, Buell motorcycles, and sportbikes in general.  Like I said before, anything that is not cruiser related is anti-H-D.  You can smell & feel that a mile away from ANY H-D dealership.  Visit one, talk to the people in there, and see for yourself.   In my personal experience, most H-D dealership hated Buells and anything related to sportbikes.  If it's a metric bike or a crotch rocket, it was the enemy.  That whole generation of anti-import/sportbike riders riding H-D run the show around there.  I hated going to H-D dealers!  There was only one that I truely felt at home and that dealership pushed Buells with equal gusto as H-D's and they people in that dealership loved both and you can tell in the way they treated you.  All other dealerships, as soon as you utter the name "Buell", they directed you to that little corner spot where they had 3 Buells then ignored you the rest of the time!            

You're right, I'm not an expert on Buell motorcycles.  Never said I was.  I do, however, stick by my observation that the average Buell fan isn't either.

I agree with you that Buell fans are the only one's who truly understand Buell and that HD doesn't.  Unfortunately for Buell the fans were few and HD finally got what Erik Buell knew all along; sport bike riders, in general, are not cruiser riders and cruiser riders, in general are not sport bike riders.  If the HD management at the time had realized this, there is a very good chance that Buell Motorcycles would have gone under long ago.

Was Buell a money loser?  Who knows.  HD only reports sales by division but lumps expenses together so there is no way of telling unless HD releases those figures.  

As for the cost difference for 2010 models, you're right again.  It wasn't always that way though.  I agree that if a young rider wants a sport bike, and has the money for one, they are more likely to go after a metric then a Buell.  The sport bike market is competitive and HD would have had to pour more money into R&D and advertising to match the metrics and change the minds of the typical sport bike rider.  I'm sure that factored into the decision to shut Buell down.

Again, I have no doubt there was a desire by some of the HD board to end Buell.  This feeling was probably there from the beginning of the relationship with Buell, however the HD management at the time did have the impression (hope) that Buell could bring the younger rider to the dealerships and financially, times were very good for the Motor Company.  A few members of this same management team, with Mr. Zimmer as CFO and then CEO, were also responsible for HD Financing and the purchase of MV Agusta.  We all know how that turned out.  Well those people have retired, a new management team is in place and changes have been made.  Will they work? Time will tell.

[Kootenanny]

Unfortunately for Buell the fans were few and HD finally got what Erik Buell knew all along; sport bike riders, in general, are not cruiser riders and cruiser riders, in general are not sport bike riders.  If the HD management at the time had realized this, there is a very good chance that Buell Motorcycles would have gone under long ago.

Why do you say this?  Had H-D management understood long ago the extent of the difference in mindset, it's possible that Buell might have been allowed to step outside the H-D dealer network--or, possibly, the Buell dealer "adjustment" might have happened right off the bat (a few years ago, many H-D dealers were culled from carrying Buell--to keep Buell, the dealers had to show some knowledge of the brand, and put effort into display and sales).  Who knows, maybe Erik would have gotten his LC engine sooner.  In any case, I believe that a better understanding of the sportbike market might have gotten Buell to the point where H-D couldn't just shut it down.

[Rogue]

....HD finally got what Erik Buell knew all along; sport bike riders, in general, are not cruiser riders and cruiser riders, in general are not sport bike riders.  

Excellent point and well said.  

These two groups simply do NOT mix.

It's like driving a 1970 Cadillac together with a 2010 Corvette.  They may be brothers from the same maker but their performance differential and riding regiment are on opposite ends of the scale!  No way they will mix and admirers of one will not like the other make.

[Baz]

Had BRP bought Buell, they would have gotten the factory, tooled up to produce all the bikes in production, and an experienced workforce.  It wouldn't have been a "rebirth" of Buell, but rather a continuation.  

BRP already owns Rotax, so they would have owned the 1125R in entirety (I don't know that Rotax "owns" the Helicon engine...when H-D bought out the contract, they may well have retained rights to the engine).  

Buell may be a small player in the overall motorcycle market, but so is BRP...and the Buell name is well known, even if their sale numbers are small.  Hey, MV Agusta isn't exactly a powerhouse builder either, but most of us recognize that name, too.  And Buells could well  have been sold through existing BRP dealers...not as extensive as H-D, but then again, we all sort of agree that most H-D dealers were not really that effective with Buells.  A smaller production company may not need such a huge dealer network.

Kootenany:

I have no idea about the Buell operation and I am going only by an interview with HD's CEO on CNBC one afternoon.

He stated on the show that they could not physically split Buell up as in a lot of cases they shared the same factory floors with HD. (He stated that this would have been his preferred method of disposing of Buell) There would have also been huge union issues if they could have just split things up. There were also patent issues etc. It was not just a factory and some real estate they could sign off on.

I would agree with you on your comment that HD dealers did nothing to sell the Buell name for sure, but really, without a dealer network, you would require years just to begin selling a new bike. (Or a re-badged Buell)

Yes, BHP does have a dealer network, but it is a little skewed. They sell quads & jet skis in a few MC dealers here, but those dealers already carry bikes, so I am not sure in this day & age how many BHP dealers would take on a Buell line up. (Those dealers have agreements with Honda, Suzuki etc that sometimes are not easy to break or alter.)  

I am pretty convinced that if you are going to sell a new motorcycle line these days, it had better be a whole lot better than what is out there now. I am not sure Buell ever fit that mould.  

And yea, MV has been a cash bleed for years, but it does carry clout in Europe. Bombardier has always done very well in Europe (A tough place to do business). I think it would be a better fit for them if the Buell sale came with no dealer support.  

[BCRider13]

Why do you say this?  Had H-D management understood long ago the extent of the difference in mindset, it's possible that Buell might have been allowed to step outside the H-D dealer network--or, possibly, the Buell dealer "adjustment" might have happened right off the bat (a few years ago, many H-D dealers were culled from carrying Buell--to keep Buell, the dealers had to show some knowledge of the brand, and put effort into display and sales).  Who knows, maybe Erik would have gotten his LC engine sooner.  In any case, I believe that a better understanding of the sportbike market might have gotten Buell to the point where H-D couldn't just shut it down.

Take a look at the interview with Erik Buell in the July 2008 edition of Motorcyclist.  This was pre-financial melt down and Buell was very up-beat on the future of Buell Motorcycles.  One part of the interview explains HD's view of Buell quite well.

"The first 10 years, in my opinion, we wasted a lot of time trying to get sportbike guys into Harley dealerships," Buell says.  "In the beginning, Buell was looked at like a gateway drug to a Harley.  The idea was Buell buyers would come back and trade their Buells for Harley-Davidsons.  That was fundamentally flawed.  Sportbike guys are never going to be cruiser guys.  I should know.  I'll never be a cruiser guy, until the day I die."

From the interview it appears the Buell was open to the partnership with HD.  It kept Buell Motorcycles alive and offered a dealer network, which Buell didn't have.  HD on the other hand was looking at the partnership as a way to get more riders into HD dealerships and eventually buy HD bikes.  Also from the interview, Buell felt that HD management at the time had changed their point of view and were open to building Buell as a stand-alone sportbike brand.  Then the financial wheels came off the bus and the Buell division fell victim to the cuts HD made when the new management, no doubt with board approval, made the decision to be HD only.

[Kootenanny]

From the interview it appears the Buell was open to the partnership with HD.  It kept Buell Motorcycles alive and offered a dealer network, which Buell didn't have.  HD on the other hand was looking at the partnership as a way to get more riders into HD dealerships and eventually buy HD bikes.  Also from the interview, Buell felt that HD management at the time had changed their point of view and were open to building Buell as a stand-alone sportbike brand.  Then the financial wheels came off the bus and the Buell division fell victim to the cuts HD made when the new management, no doubt with board approval, made the decision to be HD only.

Yes, exactly.  So why do you say H-D would have killed Buell years ago?  Buell was always held as a separate entity from H-D, and H-D management was beginning to understand the market.  They were moving in the right direction.  You suggest that, had H-D been quicker to recognize the differences in market, they would have killed Buell sooner...I'm saying that, had they recognized the differences sooner, they would have moved sooner to set it apart, and Buell may well have survived.

[Kootenanny]

...He stated on the show that they could not physically split Buell up as in a lot of cases they shared the same factory floors with HD. (He stated that this would have been his preferred method of disposing of Buell) There would have also been huge union issues if they could have just split things up. There were also patent issues etc. It was not just a factory and some real estate they could sign off on.

Baz, all Buells were assembled in the Buell plant in East Troy, Wisconsin.  The only factory space "shared" with H-D involved the Thunderstorm engine, which was manufactured in a Harley engine factory (basically, it is a Sportster engine with modifications, built to Buell specs by H-D for Buell).  AFAIK, other than a few minor parts (turn signals, for example) there is nothing else shared with H-D, and certainly nothing else built by H-D for Buell.  The frame and swingarm on my Buell were built in Italy, the controls are from Japan (it uses the same brake lever as some GSX-Rs), much of the electronics are Italian, the shocks are Japanese, and I believe the wheels are made in China.  The body pieces are made in the States, but not by Harley.  

I'd heard the "it's too integrated to sell separately" argument too, but...well, BRP's initial offer was to buy the rights to the Rotax-powered bikes only, and AFAIK there is NO "integration" of that bike with H-D.  They then offered to buy rights to all the bikes--OK< so they build XBs as well, they gotta buy engines from H-D--what's the problem with that?  H-D is already tooled up and building them, they'd simply keep building them and sell them to BRP (hey, a ready-made supply contract handed to them on a silver platter...).  

There may have been some "union issues," but hell--even the most stubborn union would probably be willing to deal in order to keep a couple of hundred jobs alive.  And patent issues...well, they're part of the deal, H-D certainly has no use for 'em (it's not like they're gonna be putting fuel-in-frame or ZTL brakes on Fatboys).  

No, I smell double-talk.  As I understand it, under American financial rules, H-D stood to gain a huge tax advantage by writing off Buell rather than selling it.  There were obviously reasons they did what they did, but I don't believe the "too integrated" BS for a minute.  Yes, there was some integration, but it wasn't as much as H-D claims, and really, it could have been worked around.

And yea, MV has been a cash bleed for years, but it does carry clout in Europe. Bombardier has always done very well in Europe (A tough place to do business). I think it would be a better fit for them if the Buell sale came with no dealer support.  

Buell did well in Europe, too.  Better than in North America.  I believe MV Agusta was a good purchase for H-D, if they'd followed through with it.  Unfortunately, their timing was poor--the recession kinda took the wind out of their sails.  The original plan was to keep MV Agusta going with changes to the upper management only--design, manufacture, and location wouldn't change.  H-D would supply an infusion of cash right away, then build a market for the bikes in NA and worldwide, and eventually rule the world! (insert diabolical laughter)  It coulda worked, too, if the recession hadn't happened, and H-D management hadn't got cold feet.  But, as it is, they bought it, held it for a year while doing nothing at all with it, and now they're gonna unload it.  As shortsighted as shutting down Buell.

[BCRider13]

Yes, exactly.  So why do you say H-D would have killed Buell years ago?  Buell was always held as a separate entity from H-D, and H-D management was beginning to understand the market.  They were moving in the right direction.  You suggest that, had H-D been quicker to recognize the differences in market, they would have killed Buell sooner...I'm saying that, had they recognized the differences sooner, they would have moved sooner to set it apart, and Buell may well have survived.

I'm suggesting that if HD had understood that sportbikes wouldn't bring new riders into the dealerships to buy HD motorcycles that they wouldn't have invested in Buell in the first place.  

[Kootenanny]

I'm suggesting that if HD had understood that sportbikes wouldn't bring new riders into the dealerships to buy HD motorcycles that they wouldn't have invested in Buell in the first place.  

OK, I'll buy that.  But...I get the feeling that, when H-D originally bought into Buell, the people involved were thinking more along the lines of, "A Harley sport bike--cool!"  And they DID bring new riders into H-D dealers--hey, they brought ME in, and I bought one!  

The idea that Buells would eventually lead to Harley sales, though...I think that idea was how they sold the idea of the Blast (which H-D asked Buell to design and build AFAIK), and it gradually grew to include all of Buell, at least in the minds of Harley brass.  

Harley has done very well for itself in developing loyalty among it's customers.  Perhaps they were hoping to expand that idea to include other segments of the market...unfortunately, the very things that inspire loyalty among the Harley faithful are so distasteful to the sportbike crowd, many dismissed the bikes out of hand without ever riding one.  Dunno if Harley realizes that only a few iconoclasts would actually brave the derision of their fellows to enter a Harley boutique and even look at Buells...

[Rogue]

Koot,  you are making a lot of excellent points.

I will add that the reason Buell enthusiasts so rejected H-D is because of what it represented.  H-D is all about style and nostalgia.  Meanwhile, Buell was all about function and performance.  These two are a direct clash of cultures.

BTW, the early years of the XB's had Buell sourcing the frame from Italy.  Later on the frame was built in the US.  

[Rogue]

No, I smell double-talk.  As I understand it, under American financial rules, H-D stood to gain a huge tax advantage by writing off Buell rather than selling it.  There were obviously reasons they did what they did, but I don't believe the "too integrated" BS for a minute.  Yes, there was some integration, but it wasn't as much as H-D claims, and really, it could have been worked around.

Don't believe for a moment what most Corporations say in public.  It is all political BS!  I've worked in enough publicly traded companies to know that what CEO's and CFO's say to Wall Street Analysts is rarely ever the whole truth.  They will almost always spin it to whatever makes the company look good (or not so bad).  

Ever hear of the statement that comes after they fire someone high up?  They always say this person went to "pursue other opportunities."    BS!  They fired him!  It's the same with public announcement.