100bhp limit and mandatory ABS proposed for EU

[Rincewind]

Motorcycles could be subjected to 100bhp power limits under proposals to be set out by the European Commission this summer.    

The Commission is expected to propose European-wide consistency on the issue, raising the prospect that countries will have to change in line with France, where a 100bhp limit is already in place.

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2010/March/mar0510-100bhp-limit-looms-again/

[chornbe]

I see a radical shift to twins and triples with 80+ ft. lbs. of torque on tap at every RPM.  

Otherwise...  

[paddy_crow]

I see a radical shift to twins and triples with 80+ ft. lbs. of torque on tap at every RPM.

It would only be able to do 80 ft-lbs at speeds below about 6600 RPM and still comply with the law.

[county]

Well, there goes the FJR.....

[PatM]

It's already the law in France. Expect large manifestations in Yurop if it goes through...

[chornbe]

It would only be able to do 80 ft-lbs at speeds below about 6600 RPM and still comply with the law.

Right. Hence the phrase "radical shift" for those who want POWER. It's why HP-based anything is silly. HP is a contrived number. A bike with 80lbs of torque out of the gate will get you to some wicked-scary speeds really fast, or will put an inexperienced rider into the shit REALLY fast and never approach a 100-HP limit.

It's silly.

[scott19]

Great. BMW finally unleashes a no holds barred hyperbike with enough power to go head to head with the competition, and now this.

[Andrew]

Seems that we here in the states are always wanting the bikes that are only destined for everywhere but here. Now maybe the europeans will now say "I wish we could get all of the cool bikes that are sold in the USA"

  Could happen  
   

[chornbe]

Seems that we here in the states are always wanting the bikes that are only destined for everywhere but here. Now maybe the europeans will now say "I wish we could get all of the cool bikes that are sold in the USA"

  Could happen  
  

Harley may find themselves in a favorable position, exporting 75HP, 75ft.lb. torquers.  

[DataDan]

All in the interest of "European-wide consistency" and "harmonisation", you understand.  

I love the Brits--that business back in 1776 and 1812 is long forgotten. But they got themeselves into this mess when they were suckered into ceding their autonomy to the EU "parliament" and hordes of unelected bureaucrats dedicated to "harmonisation". And now they're stuck with horsepower restrictions set, by default, by the fucking French.

[Aero]

This was proposed about ten years ago but abandoned when nobody could come up with any statistics which showed a correlation between horsepower and fatalities.  Just some bureaucrat trying to make a name for himself no doubt. Let's hope the idea gets binned again.

[Wanderer]

Well, there goes the FJR.....

I bet you're thrilled aren't you?  
 

[county]

I bet you're thrilled aren't you?  
  

No, much like the really fat dinosaurs, I'll lament the passing.

[Papa Lazarou]

This was proposed about ten years ago but abandoned when nobody could come up with any statistics which showed a correlation between horsepower and fatalities.  Just some bureaucrat trying to make a name for himself no doubt. Let's hope the idea gets binned again.

I hope you're right...even a Griso makes 105BHP

[kevin_stevens]

This was proposed about ten years ago but abandoned when nobody could come up with any statistics which showed a correlation between horsepower and fatalities.  Just some bureaucrat trying to make a name for himself no doubt. Let's hope the idea gets binned again.

Right, the article says:  France is the only one with such a limit today, and there's no correlation study to suggest a benefit.

Rational conclusion:  Tell France to remove their restriction and align with everyone else.

Bureaucratic conclusion:  Make a new law to align everyone else with France.

KeS

[BobM]

I think the French still long for the days when they ruled the...., ah, when they had the greatest..., when there leaders were looked upon with admir... , when they made the best wines and cheeses ..., well no one can say they still aren't the most arrogant and pious.

[Spanky]

Pull a gun, France will surrender   Some of the fastest machines are made in Europe, cars and bikes, I don't get it.

[bassjones]

One more reason to hate the French  

[rgbeard]

Frog-giggin' anyone?

[Blunder]

This was proposed about ten years ago but abandoned when nobody could come up with any statistics which showed a correlation between horsepower and fatalities.  Just some bureaucrat trying to make a name for himself no doubt. Let's hope the idea gets binned again.

Wasn't that sponsored by some Belgian pol? Bruggemann or something like that?

I remember the proposed mandatory leg protectors, too. Hopefully it will all go away.

[DogBoy]

I think the French still long for the days when they ruled the...., ah, when they had the greatest..., when there leaders were looked upon with admir... , when they made the best wines and cheeses ..., well no one can say they still aren't the most arrogant and pious.

The French still have a beautiful country, huge enthusiasm for motorcycle racing and plenty of super hot wimmins.    



Back on topic.

So the tiered licensing that most of these countries have apparently isn't enough (or isn't effective at all) to keep the roads safe. I'll remember that next time tiered licensing is proposed in the US.    

[atadaskew]

Vespas, Guzzis and Harleys for everyone!
 

I knew I was onto something.
 

[expatbrit]

I think the French still long for the days when they ruled the...., ah, when they had the greatest..., when there leaders were looked upon with admir... , when they made the best wines and cheeses ..., well no one can say they still aren't the most arrogant and pious.

The EU is something of a Franco-German hegemony, at least from an outsider's perspective (I left the UK over 15 years ago) . The UK, under Thatcher, was very much removed from the area and hasn't ever really got back. The Germans have the largest economy in the Euro-zone, so that makes sense.

[DogBoy]

Vespas, Guzzis and Harleys for everyone!
 

Well, everyone too boring or lazy to ride a supermoto.

[hornet_1971]

Vespas, Guzzis and Harleys for everyone!
 

I knew I was onto something.
 

Do any of them make a ABS model?  

[kevin_stevens]

Do any of them make a ABS model?  

Each of them do, actually.

KeS

[Andrew]

(I left the UK over 15 years ago) . The UK, under Thatcher, was very much removed from the area and hasn't ever really got back.

Amen to that.

[Baz]

It just proves that Socialism is not a good platform for fun.

[chornbe]

Well, everyone too boring or lazy to ride a supermoto.

That would be something, huh? The entire EU turned into SM hooligans. They would YEARN for the days of "big" and powerful bikes after a couple of years of that.

[Thunderbox]

Not really.  You just find another something to put value to rather than HP.  I lived in Germany for 13 years of my life and I believe they also had a HP limit and it didn't seem to be a big deal.  Lots of bikes already fit into that 100 hp limit.

[nater]

Yet another asanine idea from Europe.  Dumb.

[SpitfireTriple]

These schemes are not about safety.  They are about a bunch of politicians wanting to be able to say at the end of the year, "Look, I actually did something for my £250,000 package; promote me and pay me even more".

I used to work in the public sector.  I could not believe the quantity of crap that the senior busybodies kept coming up with.

[keepergale]

My 02 VFR will be KING OF THE WORLD.  

[Roadscum]

It just proves that Socialism is not a good platform for fun.

....... or anything else for that matter!!

[Roadscum]

I've come to realize it's more fun, more exciting, and more challanging to try to ride a slow bike fast then to have to ride a fast bike slow. Yep, HP no longer works as a penis extender for me......  

My F800S, KLR685, Triumph Scrambler, and Guzzi 1200 Sport all work just fine for me, and I've come to accept the size of my penis.  

However..... I do want the government to stay the hell out of my pants!!

[motoguy128]

My RT just barely makes 100HP at the rear wheel.  I don't consider it slow by any means.  It's no C-14 or FJR in terms of top end, but it holds it's own at sub-triple digit, legal speeds...especially 2-up where you need a felxible motor for smooth power delviery over peak HP.  

[chornbe]

My RT just barely makes 100HP at the rear wheel.  I don't consider it slow by any means.  It's no C-14 or FJR in terms of top end, but it holds it's own at sub-triple digit, legal speeds...especially 2-up where you need a felxible motor for smooth power delviery over peak HP.  

I wish more people understood that for street use.

[SpitfireTriple]

Quite a few people have posted along the lines, "100 bhp is enough.  I've got an XYZ/BMW and it's plenty fast enough for me".

Two points

1.  As long as you're okay then everything's alright?

2.  Once the politicians have got their pat on the back for introducing a 100 bhp limit, do you think they will rest on their "laurels"?

[chornbe]

2.  Once the politicians have got their pat on the back for introducing a 100 bhp limit, do you think they will rest on their "laurels"?

They will not. This is a given. I don't think anyone's advocating handing over control to the nutjobs. Frankly, I'm surprised this hasn't happened here yet. I mean... 200 miles per hour capable production bikes...? And you see lots of news stories of bikes being clocked in excess of 150 MPH and in some cases, chased.

I've said all along if we don't get ourselves under some reasonable control, the powers-that-be will do it for us. And it'll be much, much worse for all of us.

[bomber]

Quite a few people have posted along the lines, "100 bhp is enough.  I've got an XYZ/BMW and it's plenty fast enough for me".

Two points

1.  As long as you're okay then everything's alright?

2.  Once the politicians have got their pat on the back for introducing a 100 bhp limit, do you think they will rest on their "laurels"?

I might submit that this kind of thinking is exactly what led up to the point that non-elected officials in teh EU have this kind of power. While I might be perfectly happy with 100 hp, that certainly shouldn't limit others.

In fact, after getting my Tiger, I find I LIKE 100+ hp -- not having to wait for 90 mph from 60 is kinda nice! Thank you Mr Bloor!

[Hardware]

Right, the article says:  France is the only one with such a limit today, and there's no correlation study to suggest a benefit.

Rational conclusion:  Tell France to remove their restriction and align with everyone else.

Bureaucratic conclusion:  Make a new law to align everyone else with France.

KeS

It's a frog thing.  Look at how the rest of Kanada has to kowtow to Queerbec...

[SpitfireTriple]

I've said all along if we don't get ourselves under some reasonable control, the powers-that-be will do it for us. And it'll be much, much worse for all of us.

"Reasonable control".  Now there's a phrase.

There is no evidence to support the notion that I am significantly more likely to kill an innocent bystander riding a 200bhp bike than a 100bhp bike. Assuming we are in agreement on this, then there can be no valid excuse for "self-regulation".  Self regulation is effectively giving in to the busybodies.  Actually, it's worse, because we are doing their god-given work for them. And we are kidding ourselves that everything's all right because we chose such a path.

[Blunder]

The concept of self regulation has already been discounted by those who wish to govern.

As soon as some technocrat grabs onto some incident involving an idiot on a high powered machine then the nail has been put forth that needs hammering.

It becomes quite obvious to those in power that the rest of us are not to be trusted and therefore must be regulated into being proper members of a safe society. It also means that we should be thankful that we have such worthies looking after us lest we should suffer from our "ignorant" folly.

[Justin]

"Reasonable control".  Now there's a phrase.

There is no evidence to support the notion that I am significantly more likely to kill an innocent bystander riding a 200bhp bike than a 100bhp bike. Assuming we are in agreement on this, then there can be no valid excuse for "self-regulation".  Self regulation is effectively giving in to the busybodies.  Actually, it's worse, because we are doing their god-given work for them. And we are kidding ourselves that everything's all right because we chose such a path.

Particularly true since 90% of the time you will only be using less than 100HP of the 200..

[SpitfireTriple]

Hey, I'm an old fogey.  with me, it's more like 99.9%...

[chornbe]

"Reasonable control".  Now there's a phrase.

There is no evidence to support the notion that I am significantly more likely to kill an innocent bystander riding a 200bhp bike than a 100bhp bike. Assuming we are in agreement on this, then there can be no valid excuse for "self-regulation".  Self regulation is effectively giving in to the busybodies.  Actually, it's worse, because we are doing their god-given work for them. And we are kidding ourselves that everything's all right because we chose such a path.

Uhm... that's kinda what I'm saying. Kinda sorta. Look, I'm NOT saying I agree with additional regulations and these limits. If you think I am in agreement, you're way off base. But this should shock NO ONE.

It's like this... these regulations are coming about because of street racing, wheelies through town and down the highway, and because of moms and grandmoms being strafed by a guy on a Gixxer passing them at 90+ in their lane. It's called perception. And others' perception will become our reality.

It's really that simple. Frankly, it's too late. Wheels are in motion and they gain more traction every day. 10 years from now we'll be reaping the "benefits" of letting it happen now... and helping it by demanding "rights" and no policing ourselves. Fight it all you want, we brought this on ourselves. That's how it appears to me, anyway.

And it saddens me.

[bomber]

I really don't think that the horsepower or braking systems are the point (as others have said).

When you're local legislator is sitting at a sidewalk cafe and can't here himself think for the open-piped idijit driving around the block like hormonal teenagers, and when he's passed on the way home by someone doing a 80+ mph stand up wheelie, he's gonna go looking for things to legislate.

There are already lawas on the books to cover loud exhausts (but no means to quantify them) and laws agains reckless driving, too. Poor guy, he's simply GOT to draft rules against high horsepower and the lack of important safety equipment like ABS.

[SpitfireTriple]

Look, I'm NOT saying I agree with additional regulations and these limits. If you think I am in agreement, you're way off base.

I don't think you are in agreement with the limits, nor did I imply so.  Nevertheless, you are ready to self-impose them.  There's a fracture in your logic somewhere.

It's like this... these regulations are coming about because of street racing, wheelies through town and down the highway, and because of moms and grandmoms being strafed by a guy on a Gixxer passing them at 90+ in their lane.

No.  These limits are being bandied about because meddling politicians have nothing better to do.

When you're local legislator is sitting at a sidewalk cafe and can't here himself think for the open-piped idijit driving around the block like hormonal teenagers, and when he's passed on the way home by someone doing a 80+ mph stand up wheelie, he's gonna go looking for things to legislate.

No. When you're a local legislator who wants to get promoted you go looking for things to legislate.

Note: Bomber: I wasn't sure whether you were being ironic or not, so I may be "correcting" you unnecessarily.

[bomber]

Note: Bomber: I wasn't sure whether you were being ironic or not, so I may be "correcting" you unnecessarily.

And why should today be different than any other day, Trip?



;-}

[chornbe]

I don't think you are in agreement with the limits, nor did I imply so.  Nevertheless, you are ready to self-impose them.  There's a fracture in your logic somewhere.

Really? I'm too tired, too sick and frankly, too smart stupid, to keep going back and forth with you on this. You win. Whatever. Fine... we motorcyclists couldn't have prevented scrutiny and regulation by keeping our metaphorical dick in our pants. You're right. Silly me. All this attention we draw to ourselves makes no never mind.

Sorry.

No.  These limits are being bandied about because meddling politicians have nothing better to do.

They have *MANY* better things to do. But this is the squeaky wheel that needs the oil right now in their eyes.

[motoguy128]

I might submit that this kind of thinking is exactly what led up to the point that non-elected officials in teh EU have this kind of power. While I might be perfectly happy with 100 hp, that certainly shouldn't limit others.

In fact, after getting my Tiger, I find I LIKE 100+ hp -- not having to wait for 90 mph from 60 is kinda nice! Thank you Mr Bloor!

I think what most folsk don't realize, is that they aren't always using more than 100HP.  the tiger only make 100+HP near the top of hte pwoerband.  It's the 80+ft-lbs from the midrange on up,  are what you really "LIKE" about your tiger, not the extra 20 HP.  Having more than 100HP, doesn't do you much good until triple digits.  

many lightweight bikes, such as 600's can't even use that much power unitl they are well into the triple digit speeds.

By allowing bikes with more than 100HP, you admitting that you WILL most likely be exceeding the speed limit on public roads.

I suppose a better argument would be to place realistic speed limiters on motorcycles  (all vehcile for that matter) rather than restrict HP.  On public roads, what NEED do you have to exceed 120mph?  

[chornbe]

I think what most folsk don't realize, is that they aren't always using more than 100HP.  the tiger only make 100+HP near the top of hte pwoerband.  It's the 80+ft-lbs from the midrange on up,  are what you really "LIKE" about your tiger, not the extra 20 HP.  Having more than 100HP, doesn't do you much good until triple digits.  

many lightweight bikes, such as 600's can't even use that much power unitl they are well into the triple digit speeds.

By allowing bikes with more than 100HP, you admitting that you WILL most likely be exceeding the speed limit on public roads.

I suppose a better argument would be to place realistic speed limiters on motorcycles  (all vehcile for that matter) rather than restrict HP.  On public roads, what NEED do you have to exceed 120mph?  

tsk, tsk, tsk... moto, moto, moto... you and your pithy logic and well-reasoned responses... where ever do you think you fit in around here...?

[DosEquis00]

By allowing bikes with more than 100HP, you admitting that you WILL most likely be exceeding the speed limit on public roads.

I suppose a better argument would be to place realistic speed limiters on motorcycles  (all vehcile for that matter) rather than restrict HP.  On public roads, what NEED do you have to exceed 120mph?  

There are a lot of things in life we don't need but lets keep the decision ours. You are free to choose any bike you want so don't worry about other peoples choices.

[chornbe]

There are a lot of things in life we don't need but lets keep the decision ours. You are free to choose any bike you want so don't worry about other peoples choices.

I don't think he's trying to make the decision for anyone. I think he's just hoping everyone understands what it is they're about to revolt against. An informed angry mob is better than an uninformed angry mob.  

[Scoop]

I remember the preponderance of hopped up 50 cc scooters in Greece and listening to them roar up and down mountain roads all nite long, using one particular house as a "base" (aka drinking spot).  The same risks (or greater) were involved to riders, pedestrians and other traffic just as if they were all on Busa's.  Banning does nothing and stops nothing.  The "law of unintended consequences" takes over and governments find themselves in the position of having to make more laws to deal with the consequences of the laws that they already made.  A self perpetuating cycle.  
However, being from Canada, it is wise to bow to the French.  Or not, j'oublier.  

[Rampant]

the horsepower thing is silly.

I don't mind the ABS.  finding ABS bikes is tough, and the little research on ABS bikes is that it DOES matter.

Just make sure it comes with an off switch for people who are just determined.

[bomber]

the horsepower thing is silly.

I don't mind the ABS.  finding ABS bikes is tough, and the little research on ABS bikes is that it DOES matter.

Just make sure it comes with an off switch for people who are just determined.

Or the ability to purchase the bike without it -- there's lots of ABS bikes -- finding one shouldn't too tough.

(note bene -- I've got ABS on my all-weather interceptor, and value it -- mandating it is like madating helmet use, which I also do not favor).

[paddy_crow]

I don't think the problem is with high powered bikes, I think the problem is with beginners and intermediate riders on high powered bikes. Perhaps a more reasonable approach would be the dreaded tiered licensing where a person would have to pass a more stringent road test in order to register a 100+ hP bike...

[Rampant]

Or the ability to purchase the bike without it -- there's lots of ABS bikes -- finding one shouldn't too tough.

(note bene -- I've got ABS on my all-weather interceptor, and value it -- mandating it is like madating helmet use, which I also do not favor).

No, finding ABS bikes around here IS tough.  Or, what if you want bike X, but it doesn't come with ABS?

outside of BMW ($$$$) most manufacturers only offer a few models with ABS.   They may not be ones you like.  For instance, I would love a suzuki gsx650F with ABS.  Not available in the states, at least not yet.  And I rarely have the money to buy new, so it would take a few years at the least anyway.

[chornbe]

No, finding ABS bikes around here IS tough.  Or, what if you want bike X, but it doesn't come with ABS?

outside of BMW ($$$$) most manufacturers only offer a few models with ABS.   They may not be ones you like.  For instance, I would love a suzuki gsx650F with ABS.  Not available in the states, at least not yet.  And I rarely have the money to buy new, so it would take a few years at the least anyway.

SV-1000 Naked with ABS would be awesome.

Why the hell don't Suzuki put ABS on the DL-1000?  

[bomber]

No, finding ABS bikes around here IS tough.  Or, what if you want bike X, but it doesn't come with ABS?

outside of BMW ($$$$) most manufacturers only offer a few models with ABS.   They may not be ones you like.  For instance, I would love a suzuki gsx650F with ABS.  Not available in the states, at least not yet.  And I rarely have the money to buy new, so it would take a few years at the least anyway.

Got it -- it's not finding bikes with ABS that's difficult, it's finding bike YOU want with ABS . . . . . . lesser priced, used bikes with ABS. Got it.

;-}

Understood, and I agree that more choices is always good -- I don't like using the government to try and implement that, though, as their involvment tends to limit, rather than expand, choices.

[Phenix_Rider]

Right. Hence the phrase "radical shift" for those who want POWER. It's why HP-based anything is silly. HP is a contrived number. A bike with 80lbs of torque out of the gate will get you to some wicked-scary speeds really fast, or will put an inexperienced rider into the shit REALLY fast and never approach a 100-HP limit.

It's silly.

 

[SpitfireTriple]

I don't think the problem is with high powered bikes, I think the problem is with beginners and intermediate riders on high powered bikes. Perhaps a more reasonable approach would be the dreaded tiered licensing where a person would have to pass a more stringent road test in order to register a 100+ hP bike...

1.  You can kill yourself on a Wee-Strom~ as easily as you can on a Fireblade~.  The fact that Fireblades are over-represented in the accident statistics is imply down to the type of person who rides a Fireblade

2.  The problem is not with superbikes.  Nor is it with riders.  The problem is with politicians

3. In Britain, 16 year-olds have to pass a Compulsory Basic Training course and test just to ride a 50cc moped
More, from the official website
There are two types of full motorcycle licence:

    * a light motorcycle licence (A1), which restricts riders to any bike up to 125 cc and a power output of 11 kW. The practical test must be taken on a bike of between 75 cc and 125 cc
    * a standard motorcycle licence (A), is obtained if the practical test is taken on a bike of over 120 cc but not more than 125 cc and capable of at least 100 km/h per hour.
    * After passing the standard motorcycle practical test, you will be restricted for two years to riding a bike of up to 25 kW and a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg.
    * After this you may ride any size of bike

In addition to these barriers, the all-wise EU invented a new, harder-to-pass, motorcycle test. The small print also meant the closure of most of Britain's test centres, making it much harder to get to the test centre.

Result?
(From MCN)
The Prime Minister has demanded answers from the Transport Minister over the drastic fall in new riders taking the motorcycle test.

Gordon Brown was put on the spot during Prime Minister’s Question Time yesterday – by an MP who learnt of the crisis from MCN.

Anne Main, Conservative MP for St Albans, asked: “Since 2008 and the introduction of new rules on motorcycling and tests, the number of people taking the test has declined by 62% and the number of people passing the test has declined by 58 per cent.

Anne Main’s husband Andy raised the issue with his wife after reading in MCN that 50,000 fewer riders had taken the new test during its first eight months. He said: “As a life-long biker, I was very concerned to read the article. I decided to give my wife a call, and she doesn't sit around.

I see what you mean Paddy Crow; there aren't enough hurdles placed in front of would-be motorcyclists Let's place another step, at 100bhp.  And while we're at it, how about one at 50bhp and one at 150bhp?  And then, next year,...



Politicians are, consciously and deliberately, cynically making it harder and harder to ride a motorcycle.  The harder they make it, the fewer people become motorcyclists. The fewer motorcyclists on the road, the lower the motorcycle accident statistics.  The lower the motorcycle accident statistics, the easier it is for the politicians to point to them and say "Look what I did!  Promote me!"

I am amazed so many people here and elsewhere are so ready to believe that all this legislation is driven by a genuine and uncomplicated desire to increase safety.

Not only that, I am amazed at the number of people willing to collaborate in this charade.

[chornbe]

I am amazed so many people here and elsewhere are so ready to believe that all this legislation is driven by a genuine and uncomplicated desire to increase safety.

Show me where just ONE person on ST.N suggested that. Just one. No one here to my knowledge has EVER said that. Ever.

What many people believe is that these initiatives are driven by knee-jerk reaction and pressure from people complaining about the hooligans, the noise, the apparent safety issues, etc. Genuine desire to increase safety never enters into the equation. It's all just reactive.

Not only that, I am amazed at the number of people willing to collaborate in this charade.

Like who? (speaking about people in the M/C community and on this site, not the blue hairs in the tea and coffee houses)

[chornbe]

 

So, it's not silly, the idea of limiting on horse power because it's a mathematically created measurement of total potential output and not of real world power delivery?

[DataDan]

I am amazed so many people here and elsewhere are so ready to believe that all this legislation is driven by a genuine and uncomplicated desire to increase safety.

Not only that, I am amazed at the number of people willing to collaborate in this charade.

Thanks for that post, Spitfire. Not quite as much here at ST.N, but in other forums I inhabit, the idea of stricter licensing and a more elaborate training regimen is seen as a panacea. The evidence you presented from the UK's implementation of EU requirements shows just how stricter licensing reduces crashes: By creating artificial obstacles that reduce the riding population. Fewer motorcyclists, fewer crashes. Duh.

[DataDan]

So, it's not silly, the idea of limiting on horse power because it's a mathematically created measurement of total potential output and not of real world power delivery?

Power is the rate at which kinetic energy can be imparted to the motorcycle. That is, the rate at which its speed can be increased. Power-to-weight ratio is the best predictor of quarter-mile performance for motorcycles.

Horsepower explains why a 600cc sportbike with a wimpy torque rating in the mid 40s can run the quarter-mile in the 10s while a Triumph Rocket 3 with a torque rating in the mid 140s runs in the 11s. The 600 accelerates harder than the Rocket 3 at any speed from 0 to 150. The big difference is that you have to keep the 600 in a narrower rev range. That's why they give them slick-shifting close-ratio transmissions.

[chornbe]

Thank you, yes. I guess my point is that horsepower is always a mathematically contrived value (from torque and rpm) - even on a dyno - as a convenient way to measure power. It's not an inherent value like torque and RPM already are. It's a measurement of several values as a convenient way to say "power". Like "purple" being a convenient way to say "red and blue mixed together". Red and blue are primary values, but purple is generated by measuring two of the primaries together.

Now my question to phenix_rider remains...

It's not silly to want to limit bikes on HP because very, very few bikes spend very much time actually generating their peak HP which is rarely what the factory says it is anyway...? I mean, these lawmakers could go further and add in vehicle weight, then gross vehicle weight, and say that no riders under 200lbs on a 100HP bike are legal, in order to keep the overall mass/power ratio in check. Where does it end.

I repeat: it's silly.

[paddy_crow]

I see what you mean Paddy Crow; there aren't enough hurdles placed in front of would-be motorcyclists Rolleyes Let's place another step, at 100bhp.  And while we're at it, how about one at 50bhp and one at 150bhp?  And then, next year,...

You do realize that motorcycle ownership has increased exponentially over the past 20 years?

The notion that it doesn't require more skill and/or experience to ride a more powerful motorcycle is ridiculous. I can absolutely, 100% guarantee you that someone on a 50cc moped will never have to face the prospect of losing control at speeds in excess of 100 MPH. The machine simply can't go that fast.

We already have a system in place that requires a person have a license to drive a car and, additionally, a specialized license to drive a motorcycle. I would submit that someone who just passed their road test is not ready to sling their leg over a 190 hP sport bike. Whether or not these machines should be legislated out of existence or further licensing requirements should be implemented to keep those who aren't ready off them is open for debate. I can guarantee that debate is not going to be decided by motorcyclists. To be clear, I'm not coming down on one side or the other.

We can always wait for the insurance industry to render owning high output motorcycles impractical by making it extremely expensive...

[notarian]

France doesn't make a bike and wants Europe to put about in Renalts, Citroens and Peugots. Not exactly 'wonder' cars on the likes of German, Italian and British super cars. Stoggy bastards at times, the French.

Wonder what Britain, Germany, Austria and Italy will have to say about this = we all know the biking imput, heritage and expense placed into their bikes (from tourers, sm's to sport and superbikes). Add the imput from japan too for bikes over 100bhp.

Add the imput from hundreds of thousands of bikers.

All told, it doesn't add up as there'd be a backlash towards the Brussels continginent that would have them back peddling. I reckon there's not a chance in hell of limiting power to 100bhp throughout the whole of the EC at any point soon.

[chornbe]

All told, it doesn't add up as there'd be a backlash towards the Brussels continginent that would have them back peddling. I reckon there's not a chance in hell of limiting power to 100bhp throughout the whole of the EC at any point soon.

Jean Claud VanDamm vs. Chuck Norris. That's really what it'll come down to.

[expatbrit]

Thanks for that post, Spitfire. Not quite as much here at ST.N, but in other forums I inhabit, the idea of stricter licensing and a more elaborate training regimen is seen as a panacea. The evidence you presented from the UK's implementation of EU requirements shows just how stricter licensing reduces crashes: By creating artificial obstacles that reduce the riding population. Fewer motorcyclists, fewer crashes. Duh.

Well.

Reduce the licenced riding population. There's no measure there of what the actual population is.

I have heard that less than 3 out of every 10 motorcyclists in this state carry valid licences. The other 70% own bikes and don't ride, of COURSE!!

[vguy]

I recall back in the mid 1990s when there was a "rumor of a bill" going around about the end of 1000cc bikes. Some of these scare tactics are used to stimulate sales.

[DataDan]

I recall back in the mid 1990s when there was a "rumor of a bill" going around about the end of 1000cc bikes. Some of these scare tactics are used to stimulate sales.

You may be thinking of the late 1980s, when Sen. John Danforth of MO was talking about a ban on "bullet bikes". I don't think it ever got past the committee stage.

You're right in that it was self-serving and had nothing to do with the well-being of motorcyclists. But the Senator was trying to stimulate voters, not sales.

[vguy]

You may be thinking of the late 1980s, when Sen. John Danforth of MO was talking about a ban on "bullet bikes". I don't think it ever got past the committee stage.

You're right in that it was self-serving and had nothing to do with the well-being of motorcyclists. But the Senator was trying to stimulate voters, not sales.

I knew of one small motorcycle shop in Florida at the time that was stocking up on used Liter bikes, thinking it was going to happen.

[Papa Lazarou]

Why is this thread still going?  

[county]

Because everybody loves something to bitch about....

[Papa Lazarou]

Because everybody loves something to bitch about....

I still love you.

You bring sense to nonsense

[mr moto]

Harley may find themselves in a favorable position, exporting 75HP, 75ft.lb. torquers.  

Only if they also cut their  gargantuan weight by about 75%

[Rogue]

Don't knock the Euro's as if they are the only ones who are capable of these silly rules and laws.  The US is not above it.  Remember the 55 mph law and 85 mph speedometers?  Politicians are the same anywhere!  Just look at the people in office:  they are mostly old, balding, fat people driving BMW's, MB's, Cadillacs, Town Cars, SUV's, and other big luxury cars.  Most of them are not interested in powerful motorcycles.  They loathe anything that is fast!  Speed kills as far as they're concerned.  Most of them take getting passed as a pesonal insult and get offended by such an act!  Most of them in N.A are not even interested in giving the rest of you the right to share lanes to alleviate traffic!  100 bhp limits?  Sounds about right to most old Politicians!  I can't believe the French allowed that to happen!  I can't believe the Germans are even thinking about it!  In the UK, they are trying to institute a new speed law that will lower speed limits further!  WTF?  It could easily happen in the US as we are outnumbered by motorcycle-hating drivers (and voters) out there.  It's okay for an SUV to go around cruising at 90 mph in the Interstates.  But a bike cruising at the same speed is a menace to society and should be banned!  That's what they are all thinking and wanting to do someday!

[Rogue]

Politicians are, consciously and deliberately, cynically making it harder and harder to ride a motorcycle.  The harder they make it, the fewer people become motorcyclists. The fewer motorcyclists on the road, the lower the motorcycle accident statistics.  The lower the motorcycle accident statistics, the easier it is for the politicians to point to them and say "Look what I did!  Promote me!"

I am amazed so many people here and elsewhere are so ready to believe that all this legislation is driven by a genuine and uncomplicated desire to increase safety.

Not only that, I am amazed at the number of people willing to collaborate in this charade.

This shouldn't surprise you or anyone.  It has been going on since Politics was invented!