Is this good or bad for HD?

[Mark Milanowski]

http://www.jsonline.com/business/87811297.html

If HD is a victim of a leveraged buyout does it get chopped? Does a private company know how to keep the moco pure?

[Roadscum]

Perhaps it's a bit too 'PURE' for its own good. It need to wake up and shake up if it wants to survive.

[chornbe]

Yeah, 'cause AMF did such a bang-up job of running the company.

It's "purity" is an asset. It's horrible financing scheme for the last decade is a liability.

[Geoff]

This is not something that I'd think the Harley faithful would hope for.

Any outside buyer would do one thing: isolate the core brand and market the hell out of it. No new ownership group would invest in R&D, market expansion, dealer franchising, etc. They'd promote brand valuation through a simplified marketing message and sell everything around it--eg, AMF.

[chornbe]

Awesome… Harley-Davidson will now be peers with Toys R Us and Dollar General!

[Hunter]

This is not something that I'd think the Harley faithful would hope for.

Any outside buyer would do one thing: isolate the core brand and market the hell out of it. No new ownership group would invest in R&D, market expansion, dealer franchising, etc. They'd promote brand valuation through a simplified marketing message and sell everything around it--eg, AMF.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be an ass but how is this different than what H-D has been doing for decades?

[st ryder]

Honestly, I'm not trying to be an ass but how is this different than what H-D has been doing for decades?

HD has introduced several new engines, frames, and bikes in the last 10 years. There has been continual product improvement making a new HD the best ever HD, and among if not the best in its class, ie American style, narrow V-twin cruisers/tourers. Dropping all r&d will save money. I don't think HD could do any better job at marketing it's brand in its traditional markets. I think their next step lies in the emerging economies of India and China. They may decide to make bikes in China for those markets. Worked for Marlboro when US saled declined.

[chornbe]

And with American labor and the higher quality and materials, I don't see the prices of the bikes dropping any time soon. And before anyone starts ragging about the quality comment, I'm talking about things like metal headlight buckets and other places where competing products use plastic, the mile-deep paint, the mostly great chrome (some of the bolt-ons are definitely shit plating), etc.

They build a seriously good product, personal likes and dislikes aside. For the class of bike, it really is king of the hill.

[Rincewind]

The Motley Fool blog says no, it won't happen, and that it's just rumors meant to pump the stock.

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/ViewPost.aspx?bpid=354515&t=01000150446928997767

Meanwhile, it was just reported that Harley CEO got a $6.4 million dollar pay package for 09.  
(Maybe now he'll be able to get his first bike.   )

[st ryder]

...Meanwhile, it was just reported that Harley CEO got a $6.4 million dollar pay package for 09.  
(Maybe now he'll be able to get his first bike.   )

Wait 'til the Buell boys get a hold of that juicy tid-bit.

[bomber]

I'll not get involved in the "purity" conversation (it's driven by emotion far more than data), but I guaranty you that HDI being leveraged like that would be bad for Milwaukee . . . the Motor Company could maybe soldier on with it's products more or less in tact for a while, but more and more of it's operations would be moved elsewhere . . . .

[Zixxerpilot]

Something needs to happen at the MoCo. The current managing staff is apparently about as business-smart as an ugly $200 call girl.

The biggest problem, as someone else stated, was their loans. They would loan to anyone! A guy I worked with at Toro filed bankruptcy, and financed a brand new Harley not even a month after it was discharged! Oh, bike got repo'd less than a year later.


I mean, seriously, they might as well have been just handing keys and titles to anyone who walked through their door!

Oh, wait....

[HipGnosis]

Can't help wondering how that is related to this:
Harley says it must cut $54 million in local manufacturing costs

[greywolf]

Rumors are just that.  HD had a horrible experience with AMF , and has worked hard to restore its credibility.

While they are certainly overpriced, they have a very loyal following and they know better than to screw with it.
Having dumped Buell and MV Agusta and trimmed thier model line , I think they'll weather the storm .  They've been around 107 years , they'll survive .

[Roadscum]

Rumors are just that.  HD had a horrible experience with AMF , and has worked hard to restore its credibility.

While they are certainly overpriced, they have a very loyal following and they know better than to screw with it.
Having dumped Buell and MV Agusta and trimmed thier model line , I think they'll weather the storm .  They've been around 107 years , they'll survive .

The average age of HD riders goes up 1 every 12 months. The number of riders is going down as per the obits... sous like an out of business strategy to me. I give them 3-5 years unless they make some seriouhanges to their business model. It's a shame,,,,,

[birdrunner]

Yeah, 'cause AMF did such a bang-up job of running the company.

It's "purity" is an asset. It's horrible financing scheme for the last decade is a liability.

Most of the Post AMF improvements were a result of AMF R&D.   You don't buy a company and "Suddenly, the product works,"

[highside]

The average age of HD riders goes up 1 every 12 months. The number of riders is going down as per the obits... sous like an out of business strategy to me. I give them 3-5 years unless they make some seriouhanges to their business model. It's a shame,,,,,

Cite your source, cause I'm calling bullshit on everything you said.

[chornbe]

I actually know a lot of younger riders looking at things like Nighsters and SuperGlides as an accompanying bike to their RR/SS bikes.

Plus, a surprising number of Busa owners also have Harleys. (and yes, I'm well aware of the jokes that are about to come from that...)

[st ryder]

I actually know a lot of younger riders looking at things like Nighsters and SuperGlides as an accompanying bike to their RR/SS bikes.

Plus, a surprising number of Busa owners also have Harleys. (and yes, I'm well aware of the jokes that are about to come from that...)

When "bang for buck" bikes leave you flat, there's only so many ways you can go when you start looking for "something more", and HD's one of the best choices. They deliver on what's "missing" as good as any other brand associated with soul and character more so than lap times, and "dependability."

[Rabidsnipe]

When "bang for buck" bikes leave you flat, there's only so many ways you can go when you start looking for "something more", and HD's one of the best choices. They deliver on what's "missing" as good as any other brand associated with soul and character more so than lap times, and "dependability."

Well put.  So does that make them the polar opposite of Honda?

[chornbe]

Fwiw, my two harleys were as (and at times more) reliable as my Japanese bikes. I think some of you need to actually own sone other bikes or take a wider interest in the market place.

New harleys are on a par with everything else.  

[st ryder]

Well put.  So does that make them the polar opposite of Honda?

Not to be brand specific, but if you want to compare, it's better to look at what the bike delivers. If you have a bike, well, let me put it in the context of my personal experiences, when "I" had bikes that were pretty fast, and thought to be dependable and were nice to look at, I always wanted "something more." I remember saying to myself, "I'm tired of owning 'kids' bikes'." What I wasn't in touch with at that time was that I was looking for something that had a more distinctive if not storied motorcycling heritage or even "pedigree", not just another weekend recreational product for reckless speed freaks, produced en-mass by a huge conglomerate as part of a diversified line-up of motorised products including lawnmowers and personal water craft and snowmobiles and ATV's and rototillers etc. Who can offer such *motorcycles*? Not the big four IMO.

If your spirt gets all happy on one of theirs, imagine how it might sing when riding a "real", yes, I said it, a real motorcycle from a company whose only motorised product is and always has been motorcycles, and motorcycles with something so different about them that others can't claim it as theirs even if they reproduce it. Think HD exhaust note, think Ducati desmo, think Moto-Guzzi transverse 90* a/c, think Triumph a/c P-twin, think BMW boxer, (yes, I know, they make cars, but they started in the motorised vehicle business by making bikes after WW1, and they don't make snowmobiles afaik) etc.

I think, there's something "more" to be found in those brands, and it's usually not about being the fastest in a group ride or the cheapest to maintain.  It's about linking yourself up with a glorious motorcycling past, in order to find your motorcyling future.   (I recently found myself looking at an excellent example of an older bike like one of the ones I used to have, and I had to think the purchasing bug through I was so smitten by it, and came up with the answer: just like old lovers, one can't "go back" and expect to be happy for very long)

YMMV, and I'm sure it will.  

[chornbe]

EXCELLENT post!!!

[bomber]

I presently ride a Triumph and  Buell, but I've also owned Yamahas, Suzukis, a Bridgestone, a BSA, and a Knucklehead Harley.

To my mind, they were all of em "real" motorcycles -- some were certainly better motorcycles than others, but each had it's place -- horses for courses, and all that.

You may wish to link youself to a past (or, more realistically, the version of a past that a marketing exec concocted), and, to be honest, it IS all about pleasing yourself (this motorcycle thing is supposed to be fun), so please do what makes you smile.

Personally, I see no down side to riding something that is made by a company that also makes snowmobiles, or one that started out making firearms, or tractors for that matter. If it makes you grin, that is all that matters.

[thatguy]

Most of the Post AMF improvements were a result of AMF R&D.   You don't buy a company and "Suddenly, the product works,"

Bingo!!!!!!!!Winner!!

1.)Alternator-1970
2.)5 Speed trans-1980
3.)Rubber mounted drivetrain-1980
4.)Electronic Ignition-1978
5.)Vacuum controlled advance/retard-1980
6.)Valve stem seals-1979
7.)Disc brakes-1972
8.)Belt drive-1982
And the final gift that truly saved Harleys ass-
9.)The Evolution Engine.

I understand it was introduced in '84,2 years after the buyout took place. However if you remember the introductory ad campaign stated it was 5 years in process before introduction. The original Evo was state of the art manufacturing and materials. That slipped as corporate greed took over but the first couple years they were truly outstanding powerplants. And as for the '70s problems does anyone remember '70s cars? Or anything made in the '70s? Par for the course.

[BobW]

^ Not too many objective points please, this is a Harley thread so emotions and insults are the norm  

They're great bikes, but HD made bad business model choices and kicked themselves in the nuts with all these bad loans, shame on them. There may be a bunch of younger folks that like the idea of a Harley, but it is obvious the current riders are getting older (I know I'm a long way into my AARP years so I can recognize another old fart). Call bull shit all you want, but living near the Blue Ridge Pkwy, The Dragon, et al, I can watch 100's of HD riders on any given day in the summer and very few are "kids". The reality is all brands are suffering in this bad economy and the more $ being spent to pass noise and emission standards will force HD and many others with "old" engines to change or be a fond memory. Chris, I agree with your comment reference learning about the brands, many good posts on this forum by many folks and some of them are even accurate  

I'm going to go lurk on the BMW section for some good fun, they just made up a big picture of orange Kool Aid and I think the KTM guys are going to make a raid any minute now to recapture their flag.

Cheers Everyone. Save the serious shit for winter  

   

[Pshrynk]

They build a seriously good product, personal likes and dislikes aside. For the class of bike, it really is king of the hill.

Would that be the antediluvian class of bike?  

[Pshrynk]

New harleys are on a par with everything else.  

Having ridden a number of new Harleys recently -- I beg to differ.

[chornbe]

Having ridden a number of new Harleys recently -- I beg to differ.

I'm talking quality and reliability (which was the topic in question), now how you liked it for a given purpose.

[Pshrynk]

I'm talking quality and reliability

Are you honestly saying that a Harley Cruiser is as reliable, and is engineered as well as a Honda Cruiser?

[chornbe]

Are you honestly saying that a Harley Cruiser is as reliable, and is engineered as well as a Honda Cruiser?

Having actually owned two Harleys and two Honda cruisers... yes.

[Pshrynk]

Never mind, you're brainwashed.  

[chornbe]

If I were, I would still have them.

I can appreciate the qualities of an item without being "brainwashed".

Which qualities, exactly, are so much better on bike-A vs. bike-B? I'll be happy to compare based on actual ownership, test rides and working on an untold number of bikes over the 20 years.

Please note, I didn't say any other bikes were "bad" when compared to Harleys. You asked me if I thought the Harleys were as good as, an my answer is a resounding yes.

[Playinthestreet]

Never mind, you're brainwashed.  

Those who've never had Harleys are brainwashed. Those who've had 'em, along with other brands, can make objective comparisons.

[Scratch33]

Harrrrrr!!!

FTFY  

[Pshrynk]

Those who've never had Harleys are brainwashed. Those who've had 'em, along with other brands, can make objective comparisons.

Why does this always turn into such a pissing match?  Why do you Harley guys have to fight to the death rather than actually deal with objective reality?  

I have a Triumph (second one in a row) & I am not under any delusion that it's reliability is as good as Honda or  Suzuki or that it's initial fit and finish is completely up to BMW standards.   It may be close.... but no cigar.  

I'm not saying that HD's are not reliable -- just not as reliable as.   Saying Harley is on par with Honda in terms of reliability, especially when taking into account Honda's technological innovation and complexity is ludicrous.

IMO it seems that lots of Harley owners have a severe case of cognitive dissonance that comes into play because of the outrageous prices Harley charges.  

[fastfreddy]

I, for one, would love to own a Harley. If for no other reason than to support an American company.

But it seems pretty much they only make cruisers, and I don't want a cruiser. If they'd put a V-rod engine in a FJResque package, I would be very interesed.

Another thing is that I don't want to buy into the "lifestyle". I am not now, nor will ever be, a "biker". I am a motorcyclist, and motorcycles, to me, are transportation. Not a toy, or a trophy, or a status symbol. If you took those aspects os HD away, what do you have left? Bikes that couldn't compete in the marketplace at those prices.

[chornbe]

Funny post.

Why does this always turn into such a pissing match?  Why do you Harley guys have to fight to the death rather than actually deal with objective reality?  

Objective reality? When you calculate the sales numbers, the on-road miles ridden (very important number, there!), the frequency and duration of down times, the customer satisfaction (if such can *truly* be quantified) of the manufacturers, and other such hard-data facts, THEN you can talk about "objective reality". Until then, everything... EVERYTHING... is subjective.

The ONE time my Street Glide wouldn't start it was because of the dealer mechanic not properly clamping a fuel like when he replaced the fuel tank.... after I crashed the bike in a 30*, windy and rainy day, taking a previously submerged roadway at nearly 2x the posted cautionary number. On what planet is that the bike's fault?

The ONE time my Sportster didn't start was because *I* left the key on and the battery deep-cycle drained for over two weeks. I had to buy a new battery. How is that the bike's fault?

You asked if I thought Harleys were as good as the Hondas. I said yes, based on *MY* experiences which include owning several of each, working on countless numbers of EVERY marque over the last 20+ years, and riding a nearly combined 50,000 miles on my two Harleys over 2 years doing nothing... NOTHING... but routine maintenance. Not one single repair that I didn't cause.

I have a Triumph (second one in a row) & I am not under any delusion that it's reliability is as good as Honda or  Suzuki or that it's initial fit and finish is completely up to BMW standards.   It may be close.... but no cigar.  

Sounds pretty subjective to me.

I'm not saying that HD's are not reliable -- just not as reliable as.   Saying Harley is on par with Honda in terms of reliability, especially when taking into account Honda's technological innovation and complexity is ludicrous.

Prove it. Objectively. PLus... I'm not saying Hondas aren't reliable. You asked about par...  Technology...? Honda JUST this year put FI on the remaining Shadows... a model that's been around for over 20 years, based completely on Harley's success making v-twin cruisers. Harley has had FI available since 1995, and across the entire model range since 2004. What other technology, seriously, is needed on a cruiser? Don't talk about Goldwings and RR/SS bikes; keep it in context.

Get sales numbers, get miles ridden!!! and compare downtimes and frequency. Until then, you're just pissing in the wind with baseless opinion. How many Harleys have you owned and actually ridden, year 'round, cross country, doing everything from loaded-down touring to walking away from lesser riders on far "better" bikes?

IMO it seems that lots of Harley owners have a severe case of cognitive dissonance that comes into play because of the outrageous prices Harley charges.  

Some do, sure. And a larger number of people who have never, admittedly WILL never own, ride or rent a Harley just enjoy regurgitating the same stupid baseless bullshit because picking on Harley is the cool thing to do.

The bikes are fine... in fact, they're damned good bikes. They don't make anything with "sport" in the intent ("Sportster" is a name thought up in the 50s - what Honda from the 50s is still an American icon to this day?). This isn't blind allegience to Harley... Hell, I don't even OWN one any more and frankly, don't see myself getting another one. What this is... it's fact, it's open-minded opinion and it's taking a look at a product in the marketplace that has been narrowly defined, built within its design criteria, and has done very, very well as such.

They make cruisers. They make tourers. You could argue against the notion they make sport standards; I'll grant that as a very grey-area thing. And in what they DO make... they succeed; there's a reason they're copied right down to the speedometer mount. I'm just saying... And if you doubt the copy, look at Honda's VLX600 (Soft Tail copy) and the new Shadow RS and Shadow Phantom - direct ripoffs of the Sportster Low and Sportster Iron/Nightster.

Please note... I'm making ZERO defensive claims regarding the riders. You're talking about just the machines; the cold, hard, fact-based, metal and plastic objects in space.

You wanna talk about douchebag owners? I can point to many. Lots on Harleys. Lots on Gixxers. Lots on Goldwings. Lots on Beamers. Lots on Triumphs. But I can also point to 'Wing, beamer and Harley owners that are some of the nicest people, and some riders that you couldn't keep in sight on your absolute best days... and some of them are on Harleys.

It's just a bike, man. Like any other... it's just another bike. Get over yourself(ves).

[Pshrynk]

I, for one, would love to own a Harley. If for no other reason than to support an American company.

Another thing is that I don't want to buy into the "lifestyle". I am not now, nor will ever be, a "biker". I am a motorcyclist, and motorcycles, to me, are transportation. Not a toy, or a trophy, or a status symbol. If you took those aspects of HD away, what do you have left? Bikes that couldn't compete in the marketplace at those prices.

Ding, ding, ding, winna, winna, chicken dinna!!!!!

Exactly -- what tangible difference(s) makes a HD Rocker $20,000 and a Honda Fury only $13,000?!?!?!?!!?!?!

[chornbe]

I, for one, would love to own a Harley. If for no other reason than to support an American company.

But it seems pretty much they only make cruisers, and I don't want a cruiser. If they'd put a V-rod engine in a FJResque package, I would be very interesed.

Another thing is that I don't want to buy into the "lifestyle". I am not now, nor will ever be, a "biker". I am a motorcyclist, and motorcycles, to me, are transportation. Not a toy, or a trophy, or a status symbol. If you took those aspects os HD away, what do you have left? Bikes that couldn't compete in the marketplace at those prices.

Wholly agreed.
Posted on: June 28, 2010, 01:05:26 PM

Ding, ding, ding, winna, winna, chicken dinna!!!!!

Exactly -- what tangible difference(s) makes a HD Rocker $20,000 and a Honda Fury only $13,000?!?!?!?!!?!?!

Uhm... American labor workers, unions, wicked expensive health care, expensive US real estate... And the fact that the bikes are built to a higher standard, often using metal where most of the Japanese bikes use plastic, considerably better paint quality - and have you seen that hideous seam on every Honda fuel tank over the last 20+ years. Cruisers are image machines; that's a black eye on an otherwise fine machine. I'm not justifying these points - I'm simply explaining these well-known, quantifiable factors, and points made within the market place, by actual buyers, for years.

[Pshrynk]

Wow.   You must have drank a pitcher of the pirate Kool Aid  

[chornbe]

Wow.   You must have drank a pitcher of the pirate Kool Aid  

You're no County.

[stevent]

Wow.   You must have drank a pitcher of the pirate Kool Aid  

Sorry but I can't help thinking you know not that of which you speak.............

Having owned 7 Harley's, 3 Triumphs, 3 BMW's, 2 Suzuki's 3 Kawasaki's, 2 Hondas, 3 Yamaha MX'rs, a CZ, a Bultaco and a Hodaka over the last 42 years, I can safely say that the Honda's I had were the least reliable. In fact both Honda's an '84 V65 Saber and a '97 VFR 750 left me on the side of the road a number of times with electrical problems and were frankly the biggest piles of shit I've owned. Of the 7 Harley's I've owned, 4 of them were AMF era and were reliable for the excess of 200k miles I put on them, as were the new twin cam 88 and my current TC96... as were the Hinkley Triumphs, as were the BMW's, both airhead and oilhead twins and a K100RS, as were the Kawasaki and Suzuki's


I'm guessing you're just another full of shit idiot parroting the tried and (un)true "Harleys are junk" line in an effort to wind someone up.....I guess what I'm trying to say is .........   and I mean that in the most heartfelt manner....

[chornbe]

I was trying not to offend the poor lad.

I like your approach better.

[Pshrynk]

Sorry but I can't help thinking you know not that of which you speak.............

Having owned 7 Harley's, 3 Triumphs, 3 BMW's, 2 Suzuki's 3 Kawasaki's, 2 Hondas, 3 Yamaha MX'rs, a CZ, a Bultaco and a Hodaka over the last 42 years, I can safely say that the Honda's I had were the least reliable. In fact both Honda's an '84 V65 Saber and a '97 VFR 750 left me on the side of the road a number of times with electrical problems and were frankly the biggest piles of shit I've owned. Of the 7 Harley's I've owned, 4 of them were AMF era and were reliable for the excess of 200k miles I put on them, as were the new twin cam 88 and my current TC96... as were the Hinkley Triumphs, as were the BMW's, both airhead and oilhead twins and a K100RS, as were the Kawasaki and Suzuki's


I'm guessing you're just another full of shit idiot parroting the tried and (un)true "Harleys are junk" line in an effort to wind someone up.....I guess what I'm trying to say is .........   and I mean that in the most heartfelt manner....

So your claim then,  is that Hondas are not reliable and AMF era Harleys are?   You must get your pirate Kool Aid at Sam's Club or Costco.

[chornbe]

Why do you keep trying to make blanket statements based on what is, essentially, anecdotal information?  

I don't understand your blinding anti-Harley agenda.

[Pshrynk]

Why do you keep trying to make blanket statements based on what is, essentially, anecdotal information?  

I don't understand your blinding anti-Harley agenda.

I like Harley's and have owned one -- but they is what they is.  

[chornbe]

Which answers nothing and doesn't explain your blindness to fact, reason and objectivity.

Have a nice life.

[Pshrynk]

Which answers nothing and doesn't explain your blindness to fact, reason and objectivity.

Have a nice life.

Please present the extensive, peer reviewed,  valid & reliable studies on motorcycle reliability that YOU have.

[BobW]

This shit gets old regardless the brand. They are basing their opinion on ownership of multiple examples and therefore they "own" their answer. You are making the statement/taking the position contrary to theirs, so why don't you provide the study supporting your position. Stop being  contrary kunt and go ride what ever the phuck makes you smile and save your "Pshrynk 101" troll posting for another venue.

cheers

[Pshrynk]

This shit gets old regardless the brand. They are basing their opinion on ownership of multiple examples and therefore they "own" their answer. You are making the statement/taking the position contrary to theirs, so why don't you provide the study supporting your position. Stop being  contrary kunt and go ride what ever the phuck makes you smile and save your "Pshrynk 101" troll posting for another venue.

cheers

Thanks for YOUR opinion Bob -- however if ya don't like it don't read it.    Do I need to explain the concept of a DISCUSSION forum?  

There are no comprehensive studies of reliability -- other than relatively few and useless consumer polls -- hence the the point I was making that went way over your head.

I am basing my opinions on 30 years of ownership and experience of different bikes just like they are -- only mine is not skewed by patriotic, made in America Harley love.  Someone actually said AMF era Harleys were reliable and Honda's were not -- that's just simply delusional.   AMF damn near bankrupted the company by building shite when the japanese were building quality stuff.

My simple point is that not all bikes are manufactured equally -- some are simply better than others -- Harley has only been building well engineered stuff for about twenty years or so -- but really this is a f'n company that couldn't figure out how or were too stubborn to use proper modern alloys in engines until the Evolution fer crissake and they still have huuuuge engines with comparatively little power.  

Like I said before,  I actually LIKE Harley's,  just not the unrealistic views of their engineering or functionality.    So phuck you too Bob.      

[stevent]

If you had actually been around that long you'd know that AMF actually saved Harley-Davidson. They introduced to alternator Shovelhead, disc brakes (before the Japanese started using them) electronic ignitions (before the Japanese) turn key touring bikes with the FLH series, alloy wheels and tubeless tires and did the development and testing of the Evolution engine.

During the same time period Honda has had continued documented charging system issues on the 1200 Goldwings, bearing failures on the V4 engines, camshaft failures on Kawasaki, alternator failures on the GS series Suzuki engines, recently the Honda Goldwing and Suzuki GSXR's have had documented frame failures the list goes on.

I'm not saying Harleys are the be-all and end all of motorcycling however current Harleys are every bit as reliable if not mores so than anything else on the road. Also even back in the "bad old days" of AMF ownership they were in stock form as reliable as anything else on the road at that time. The difference was everyone thought they were a mechanic and inflicted their ham-fisted "skills" on "performance mods" which usually wound up with the bike running like shit and breaking down. The key to keeping Harleys reliable is to leave them the fuck alone and ride them.


I can say all this because I was there and saw these things with my own eyes, not parroting some trumped up bullshit I read on a web site

[bomber]

There's a fair amount of engineering that goes into making a reliable motorcycle that looks 80 years old (using HD's 1930's analogy for their gas tanks) . . . . they've got some talenteed folks doing really interesting R&D work. The power the engines make seem to be enough for them to own a major market segment, and their functionality meets or exceeds the level needed to support those sales.

HDI no longer makes anything I want, and many of their customers are annoying in the extreme,  dismissing the brand due to poor quality 20/30 years ago is less than entirely rational.

[chornbe]

I am basing my opinions on 30 years of ownership and experience of different bikes just like they are -- only mine is not skewed by patriotic, made in America Harley love.

I'm 43. Been riding since I was 12. First was a Honda dirt bike. Then a Suzuki dt125, and a few others, all Japanese. Bought my first street bike at age 17. A Kawasaki 440LTD (belt drive!). Then a Goldwing. Then a Yamaha Special II. From there I went through a plethora of Japanese bikes, something from all of the "big four", ranging from little tiny bikes to the Goldwing (again). They ranged in price and quality from basket case to brand new. Then took a few years off riding when I was broke an the kids were very young. In 2003 I bought a Honda Magna. Then a Goldwing (again!). Then a Concours. Then a Shadow. Then a CBR. Then an FJR. Then another CBR. Then a Street Glide. Then a Sportster. Sold BOTH Harleys, bought a Moto Guzzi. This only includes street legal and road-worthy bikes. Had a host of projects, part-outs and a couple of track-only bikes that I never actually used for racing. All Japanese, by the way. In addition, my first career, right out of high school, was an a ASE-certified automobile mechanic specializing in engines, suspensions, electrical and performance modifications. In that time, I also had a small bike business. I got out of pro-wrenching in my late 20s due to a back injury, but have always kept my hands dirty. I've worked on more bikes than you've likely seen, 90% of them, Japanese. Name a bike... yep, fixed it. Another one? Yep, likely that one too. Yeah, one o' them, too... you see where I'm going with this.

Where, exactly, is my blind, skewed, Harley love?

It don't get much more objective than me.

Harley makes a fine bike that is just as reliable as anything else you're going to spend your good, hard-earned money on.

Lighten up and relax. You'll live longer.



PS... "AMF ERA" (perhaps something of a misnomer of intent) refers to the years when Harley was bought and financially bolstered by AMF. As noted by others, AMF's money enabled them to spend time and engineering resources to modernize a bit and increase quality, but during some of these years, Harley had lots of questionable quality issues, due in part to crappy manufacturing and due in part to growing pains, and due in part to major changes to how they were doing things. Yes, during the time that AMF owned Harley, some pretty shitty bikes rolled out of the factories... Not necessarily due to the fault of AMF.

I'm not saying Harleys are the be-all and end all of motorcycling however current Harleys are every bit as reliable if not mores so than anything else on the road. Also even back in the "bad old days" of AMF ownership they were in stock form as reliable as anything else on the road at that time. The difference was everyone thought they were a mechanic and inflicted their ham-fisted "skills" on "performance mods" which usually wound up with the bike running like shit and breaking down. The key to keeping Harleys reliable is to leave them the fuck alone and ride them.

This is an EXCELLENT point. Even today, the same holds true; I'd put a STOCK Harley - "overbuilt and understressed" - on a par with ANY machine built and known for reliability.  

[Playinthestreet]

This is an EXCELLENT point. Even today, the same holds true; I'd put a STOCK Harley - "overbuilt and understressed" - on a par with ANY machine built and known for reliability.  

Yup!

[BobW]

Like I said before,  I actually LIKE Harley's,  just not the unrealistic views of their engineering or functionality.    So phuck you too Bob.    

  Consider me phucked  

They are what they are and don't advertise to the contrary. My reply was perhaps too simple and not that it has ever been found in a HD thread, but I'm sure some discussion boards still have troll posts VS true desire to learn/share information    

BTW, I've been riding (and in my younger days amateur competition) for over 45 years on everything from HonYamSukawi's, Hodaka, Husqvarna, Maico, MG, BMW, Duc, HD, Laverda, BSA, Bultaco, et al. It was a great era in motorcycling and still is despite the economic issues going on today. I was a Honda Factory trained tech as well as Husky and Maico ( VW/Audi too). I love motorsports and am well aware of the warts every brand can have. Much is lost when not talking "face to face" so perhaps having the same conversation with you in person would not have left the impression you were just trying to have a pissing contest regardless what reply was given. Either way, buy what makes you smile.

Cheers all and have a safe and happy 4th of July!

[Pshrynk]

 Either way, buy what makes you smile.

Can't argue with that.  

[zam70]

I have owned many of the current brands of bikes and from many different countries - they are what they are...don't try to pretend an HD is something that it isn't and you'll find it is an excellent purpose built motorcycle.

The problem and confusion arises when people try to act like a certain motorcycle is something that it is not (a sport bike/long distance tourer, a cruiser/Sport bike, a thumper is a land barge, a goldwing/dirt bike...).
Different styles of Motorcycles are designed with different purposes in mind...HDs main focus is cruisers and they make a better cruiser than any other manufacturer...they have been doing it for over 100 years, they have the practice and experience  
 
As for HD cruisers VS Metric Cruisers - I have owned both and put alot of miles on both (most recently a VTX1800 and 03 RoadKing) and there is absolutely no comparison...the Roadking IS a much better machine.  Even with "less" power, it handles 2 up better, fit & finish is better, switchgear is better, paint is better, etc etc....there honestly is no comparison in quality...the 2 bikes are in completely different leagues with the VTX trying to be what it isn't...what it is, is a cheap effort at a cruiser style motorcycle.

Here's the kicker....I hated HDs...until I actually rode one.

[chornbe]

Here's the kicker....I hated HDs...until I actually rode one.

 

[atadaskew]

Are you honestly saying that a Harley Cruiser is as reliable, and is engineered as well as a Honda Cruiser?

My Harley was more reliable than my Wing 1800 and VFR750.  My Wing 1200 had electrical issues but that was at about 80K miles so I'm not counting that (stator)
Posted on: September 03, 2010, 05:32:00 PM

The average age of HD riders goes up 1 every 12 months. The number of riders is going down as per the obits... sous like an out of business strategy to me. I give them 3-5 years unless they make some seriouhanges to their business model. It's a shame,,,,,

Fantastic!
Let's do some math to back up Roadscum's statement..
Harley is now 107 years old.  Let's say the average age of an owner when they started out was 20 yrs old (too low I'm sure but it doesn't matter)
Then according to Roadscum the avg age of a Harley rider is now 20 + 106 = 126 years old!

Wow!

[chornbe]

I hear that shit all the time.

30 years ago 50 year old guys rode Harleys, with a spattering of other age groups.

Now, 50 year old guys are riding Harleys, with a spattering of other age groups.

Either a lot of guys decide to add a Harley to the stable when they're financially able, or Harley has found the key to immortality.

[dorklord]

If you had actually been around that long you'd know that AMF actually saved Harley-Davidson...disc brakes (before the Japanese started using them)

Got proof to back that statement up? I'm thinking that the first Japanese bike to use a disc brake was the year AMF bought Harley, and, say, 3 years before Harley introduced disc brakes...

[Skee]

IIRC, AMF d@mn near ruined HD using poor quality sand cast engines.  Worst 7 or so years in their history.  IIRC

[stevent]

Got proof to back that statement up? I'm thinking that the first Japanese bike to use a disc brake was the year AMF bought Harley, and, say, 3 years before Harley introduced disc brakes...

Harley-Davidson started using disc brakes on the FLH series in 1971, Disc brakes were standard on all FX Superglide models in 1972 and on Sportsters starting in 1973. That's straight out of the Harley Davidson factory service manuals that I used to work on my '76 Superglide and '78 Sportster back then and are sitting in front of me as I speak.

The only Japanese bike I know that had a disc brake back then was the 900 Kawasaki in 1972.

[Kraz]

The average age of HD riders goes up 1 every 12 months. The number of riders is going down as per the obits... sous like an out of business strategy to me. I give them 3-5 years unless they make some seriouhanges to their business model. It's a shame

Fantastic!
Let's do some math to back up Roadscum's statement..
Harley is now 107 years old.  Let's say the average age of an owner when they started out was 20 yrs old (too low I'm sure but it doesn't matter)
Then according to Roadscum the avg age of a Harley rider is now 20 + 106 = 126 years old!

Wow!

There was an article floating around somewhere on ST.N very recently that the average age went up higher than 1/per year.  I wanna say up 5 years in the last 3 or something like that.

[dorklord]

Harley-Davidson started using disc brakes on the FLH series in 1971, Disc brakes were standard on all FX Superglide models in 1972 and on Sportsters starting in 1973. That's straight out of the Harley Davidson factory service manuals that I used to work on my '76 Superglide and '78 Sportster back then and are sitting in front of me as I speak.

The only Japanese bike I know that had a disc brake back then was the 900 Kawasaki in 1972.

Everything I've seen says that they first used disc brakes in 72 (although that may be that they were on 72 model year bikes, which went on sale sometime in 71), but either way, the CB750 had a disc brake on the 1969 model.

[stevent]

Everything I've seen says that they first used disc brakes in 72 (although that may be that they were on 72 model year bikes, which went on sale sometime in 71), but either way, the CB750 had a disc brake on the 1969 model.

Ah, you're right. The CB750 had a disc front in 1968. OK then, HD had disc brakes before every other Japanese model except the CB750......

[dorklord]

Ah, you're right. The CB750 had a disc front in 1968. OK then, HD had disc brakes before every other Japanese model except the CB750......

Once the CB750 got a front disc, the vast majority of newly designed (or redesigned) Japanese bikes got them. It's one of the defining traits of the UJM.

For example, the CB350 introduced in 68 had a drum front brake, but the replacement CB350F in '72 had a front disc. The CB500 was an all new model in 71 and had a front disc.

Of course, it took longer for discs to be adopted on dirt bikes and 'budget' bikes (the 250 Nighthawk comes to mind!)

[chornbe]

One of about a b'zillion other reasons why the CB750 was innovative and many other bikes are merely iterative.  

[stevent]

Front disc, drum rear. HD had discs front and rear from 1971 on except the Sportsters oddly enough since that was supposed to be their performance model. Triumph  Moto Guzzi and BMW all had discs by '74. The Japanese put out some decent bikes but they weren't the be-all and end- all of motorcycling then anymore than they are now. About the  only "innovation" they came up with was splitting the cases horizontally instead of vertically

[BobW]

Front disc, drum rear. HD had discs front and rear from 1971 on except the Sportsters oddly enough since that was supposed to be their performance model. Triumph  Moto Guzzi and BMW all had discs by '74. The Japanese put out some decent bikes but they weren't the be-all and end- all of motorcycling then anymore than they are now. About the  only "innovation" they came up with was splitting the cases horizontally instead of vertically

Yeah, who'd of though silly stuff like eliminating perpetual oil leaks, tight QC engine clearances in non critical parts like piston/cyl bore, electrics that worked, etc., etc., would ever catch on.........

Don't get me wrong, I grew up on and still love the "classic" bikes and brands (last bikes have been a couple Triumphs, BMW r and MG), but the UJM showed just what was wrong with the delivered products of the day and the resulting massive decline of several oem's and amazing growth of others speaks for itself.

Cheers

[birdrunner]

........ The Japanese put out some decent bikes but they weren't the be-all and end- all of motorcycling then anymore than they are now. About the  only "innovation" they came up with was splitting the cases horizontally instead of vertically

Actually,  the real innovation of the Japanese bikes of that era were they were mostly reliable.  Especially compared to other bikes of that era.