May 2010 Cycle World

[whodom]

Barracuda II on the cover and short review inside; massive article on Buell story and demise under HD by Steve Anderson (former Cycle World writer and former Buell platform engineer).



Limited on-line viewing of issue available here:  http://www.zinio.com/browse/publications/index.jsp?productId=77581896&affId=cj&rf=cjaffcatalog&csid=cj (limited to three "zooms" per computer)

"Of all the words of tongue or pen, these are the saddest: 'what might have been'"  

[xbud]

 Cool read, thanks for posting this. Too bad it never made it to production

[Tpoppa]

I'm glad that story saw the light of day.  I wonder how many more Rotax powered XBs would have sold for $7,995 vs. the $9,995 sportster powered version.

HD made life tough for Buell.  If you think about it, the fact a small American Sportbike company was able to win the DSB title on a shoestring budget is amazing    HD missed their chance to create American motorcycles that could have been icons for the current and next generation of riders, just as their Big Twins were icons for folks that were around in the 60s and 70s.

[kevin_stevens]

 Cool read, thanks for posting this. Too bad it never made it to production

   It was published just today.  You can buy it at any newstand.

KeS

[Tpoppa]

   It was published just today.  You can buy it at any newstand.

KeS

Pretty sure he meant the Barracuda II.

[Brad1445]

Sell it under the Harley name I will buy one tomorrow.

[Tpoppa]

Sell it under the Harley name I will buy one tomorrow.

HD engineering can't figure out how to mount ape hangers on the clipons.

[Prubert]

Hmm, wonder if Cycle World just ran with this and didn't let H-D know they were doing it?

IF H-D did know about this, why would they let this out?  It serves no purpose, just peels off the scab and pours salt in the wound.

Why are they trying to keep the Buell furor alive?

Interesting.

[Tpoppa]

Hmm, wonder if Cycle World just ran with this and didn't let H-D know they were doing it?

IF H-D did know about this, why would they let this out?  It serves no purpose, just peels off the scab and pours salt in the wound.

Why are they trying to keep the Buell furor alive?

Interesting.

I'm sure HD is not happy about it, but how could they stop it?  The author seemed to point out that he was staying within the bounds of his non-disclosure agreement.

[Prubert]

I'm sure HD is not happy about it, but how could they stop it?  The author seemed to point out that he was staying within the bounds of his non-disclosure agreement.

I don't think H-D could ever stop it leagally if they didn't violate an agreement.

I bet H-D advertising $$ is something they may want to keep.  CW is a large mag and may not give a rip about pissing off H-D, thinking they don't need them and H-D needs CW to help advertise their product.

I just don't see H-D really wanting this out there now, it seems that CW is turning the knife....deserved or not.  

Later.

[kevin_stevens]

Pretty sure he meant the Barracuda II.

Indefinite pronouns confuse me.  

KeS

[Tyrroneous]

Thanks for the link.

I like my 1125R and feel its a decent looking bike, but that Barracuda 2 is a looker for sure!  Buell was just beginning to hit its stride.

 I think Its clear that the 1190RR that Eric Buell Racing sells is based heavily off of the Barracuda.  Both bikes have the same radiator design, same subframe, same airbox cover, etc.

[kevin_stevens]

I don't think H-D could ever stop it leagally if they didn't violate an agreement.

I bet H-D advertising $$ is something they may want to keep.  CW is a large mag and may not give a rip about pissing off H-D, thinking they don't need them and H-D needs CW to help advertise their product.

I just don't see H-D really wanting this out there now, it seems that CW is turning the knife....deserved or not.  

Later.

They're not "turning the knife", they're reporting news; background and information on a significant event in the motorcycling industry and community.  I'm sure they'd be happy to report H-D's position on it as well, in fact they've covered the minimal blurbs that TMC has released on the subject.  That H-D doesn't want their dirty laundry aired is understandable but not CW's problem.

KeS

[Tpoppa]

I don't think H-D could ever stop it leagally if they didn't violate an agreement.

I bet H-D advertising $$ is something they may want to keep.  CW is a large mag and may not give a rip about pissing off H-D, thinking they don't need them and H-D needs CW to help advertise their product.

I just don't see H-D really wanting this out there now, it seems that CW is turning the knife....deserved or not.  

Later.

True.  CW is putting HD advertising $$ at risk.  Someone @ CW must have felt strongly about letting this article see the light of day.

[chornbe]

I'm thinking if someone could just bring back Indian, the world would be a better plac... oh wait.

[Rogue]

HD made life tough for Buell.  If you think about it, the fact a small American Sportbike company was able to win the DSB title on a shoestring budget is amazing    HD missed their chance to create American motorcycles that could have been icons for the current and next generation of riders, just as their Big Twins were icons for folks that were around in the 60s and 70s.

H-D is happy with their decision because it's like they got rid of the one thing they hated so much--sportbikes.

Time will tell how much longer H-D can continue to sell on nostalgia.  I guess as long as there are Baby Boomers riding around they will.  Once that generation retires from riding will they be able to replace them on a 1 to 1 basis?  I don't think so.  Their sales statistics already show the average age of their buyers are much older.  Extrapolate that in 10-15 years and you can clearly see the demographics and tastes switching.

Fact is, the newer generation and forward thinkers don't want to buy on nostalgia unless you back it up with real, competitive, modern day performance.  Hell even a retro-Ducati will run circles around a Sportster.  Look at what the younger people are riding now:  Sportbikes!  You think most of them will trade those in for slow cruisers when they get older?  Or will they prefer a higher performance standard?  Will they have the same loyalty to an American brand or will they cross shop with other brands?  I think when today's riders age they won't want to swap all that performance for a H-D.  Also, most of these riders won't give a rat's ass about the movie Easy Rider.  Those two cowboys would never have made it to New Orleans with zero suspension!

[Prubert]

Once that generation retires from riding will they be able to replace them on a 1 to 1 basis?  I don't think so.  Their sales statistics already show the average age of their buyers are much older.

...So you get Trikes (from the factory) and then the next logical step is a CVO Casket/Headstone.  

[Tar Snake]

...So you get Trikes (from the factory) and then the next logical step is a CVO Casket/Headstone.  

Delete the flames and skulls on mine please!

FLOFGTCAO= Freakin' Lake of Fire Gnashing Teeth Custom  Afterlife Operations.

[ConPilot1]

I will perpetually spit upon the ground whenever I hear the name Harley-Davidson for crushing the only other viable American bike manufacturer there was.
CW should twist the knife whenever they can. Screw Harley's advertising dollars, and the furor over it SHOULD be kept alive because it was a downright travesty if you ask me.

Just because it was a different bike and it didn't appeal to the stinking hairy masses of brainwashed jihadi-bearded leather fringed flag slathered American Cruiser knuckle-dragger trend humping fashion lemmings and the ONLY bike company that they feel have a right to exist on the planet is the maker of those hideous open piped, ridiculous chrome plated boat anchor noisy self propelled dildo yachts. (yes, taken from American Angst)

They stand around and cry like pussies in the filthy plywood-and 2x4 decorated bars they hang out in as they hoist their beers and Bic lighters and sing when "Ah'm Proud to be an American, where at least ah know ah'm free"
plays while their dear, dear Harley-Fucking-Davidson, Incorporated, stamps out a brilliant serious American sportbike company and 200 American jobs to the tune of $125 mil right out of the corporate coffers because they can't stand any competition in the American market.

Fuck them.

Ptooooey.

[whodom]

The real kicker about the article is all the things Buell WOULD have done if not for HD mis-management:  A ~$7000 XB9 instead of a ~$9000 one.  Larger air-cooled engines based on the XB9 arrangement up to 1400 cc!  A turbo'ed XB with 150 RWHP nearly ready for production.  No-fully faired 1125R because "we don't want to compete with the Japs".  No internet sales of clothing/gear/accessories because that's not how HD does it.  Blast engines costing 80% more than planned!  No sportier Blast or 600cc variants!  

AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

[Rogue]

They stand around and cry like pussies in the filthy plywood-and 2x4 decorated bars they hang out in as they hoist their beers and Bic lighters and sing when "Ah'm Proud to be an American, where at least ah know ah'm free"
plays while their dear, dear Harley-Fucking-Davidson, Incorporated, stamps out a brilliant serious American sportbike company and 200 American jobs to the tune of $125 mil right out of the corporate coffers because they can't stand any competition in the American market.

Fuck them.

Ptooooey.

I couldn't have said it any better.  

They try to portray an image of all American and keeping it in America then they axe the only American sportbike brand along with 200 jobs right in their backyard!  My next bike is either going to Italian or British....maybe another Honda...maybe...

[Brad1445]

I couldn't have said it any better.  

They try to portray an image of all American and keeping it in America then they axe the only American sportbike brand along with 200 jobs right in their backyard!  My next bike is either going to Italian or British....maybe another Honda...maybe...

I  guess the 1125  frame was American.
and it was selling soooooo welllllll.

why O why did they kill such a hot selling bike.  Why did they sell them for $5,000.

[Tpoppa]

[Spiffious]

Anyone else find it interesting that a reason for not selling buell was that they didn't think Buell was worth anything without the Harley dealer support.    

Yes, the Harley dealers were well known for how they supported sportbikes.



Also, I find it funny that basically everything that troll Brad claims to be the demise of Buell turns out to be Harley's mismanagement.  For example, pods because Harley said no full fairing on the bike.

[bomber]

It DOES seem strange the CW would publish this piece now --- but, they gotta fill the book every month, and this'll bring a lot of newstand sales, I'm better . . . . . .

I think HD and CW have a fairly symbiotic relationship -- I can't imagine anyone in Milwaukee being short sighted enough to pull the ads from CW for more than an issue or so.

Good for CW, though -- it's an important story in motorcycling -- lot's of folks will learn things.

[st ryder]

...For example, pods because Harley said no full fairing on the bike.

I can't agree with this type of thinly veiled "Harley blame game" revisited. If HD did in fact say no full fairing, did they say pods? Maybe I missed it, but is there proof anywhere that anybody in the HD design department signed off on those monstrosities? If so, then they were purposely aiding and abetting Buell's demise, like a woman telling her rival she looks good in a dress that makes her look fat. Might I remind everybody that the VR1000 was a decent looking bike designed by HD. They, HD or Buell, could have mad a bike with side rads that looked a lot better than the pods do. And in fact, it seems E. Buell is. I wonder why?

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I don't want to offend 1125r/c owners, (I don't mind the look of the top fairing at all, and I don't mind the 1125r in white) but I just can't help but look at that Baracuda and agree: "what if"  

[Tpoppa]

I can't agree with this type of thinly veiled "Harley blame game" revisited. If HD did in fact say no full fairing, did they say pods? Maybe I missed it, but is there proof anywhere that anybody in the HD design department signed off on those monstrosities? If so, then they were purposely aiding and abetting Buell's demise, like a woman telling her rival she looks good in a dress that makes her look fat. Might I remind everybody that the VR1000 was a decent looking bike designed by HD. They, HD or Buell, could have mad a bike with side rads that looked a lot better than the pods do. And in fact, it seems E. Buell is. I wonder why?

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I don't want to offend 1125r/c owners, (I don't mind the look of the top fairing at all, and I don't mind the 1125r in white) but I just can't help but look at that Baracuda and agree: "what if"  

Bringing up the VR1000 is interesting.  It also did not have a full fairing, which seems to be consistent with HD policy.

I am not an expert of the VR1000, beyond what is publicly known:  http://www.superbikeplanet.com/vr1000_obit.htm

The VR1000 was wrought with disaster, and was intended as a track only bike, save for the 50 sold in Poland.  Perhaps it's cooling system worked at track speeds and not on the street.

The 1125 was designed to comply with 2008+ emissions for the USA and Europe which are far stricter than anything the VR1000 had to contend with.  New emissions standards mean a LEAN state of tune which means ALOT more heat must be disippated.

I doubt that HD said, "you must have pods,"  but they did say "no full fairing"  &  "no visible radiators."  From an engineering standpoint that only leaves so many options.  You can debate the cosmetics all you want, but from a function standpoint, the pods work quite well.  My 1125 runs a few degrees cooler than my CBR, and the 1125 generates much more heat.

There is NO WAY IN HELL CW would publish this info if it weren't true.  It just would not make sense to risk a lawsuit.

[Tpoppa]

Also, I find it funny that basically everything that troll Brad claims to be the demise of Buell turns out to be Harley's mismanagement.  For example, pods because Harley said no full fairing on the bike.

We have a winner!

[st ryder]

Bringing up the VR1000 is interesting.  It also did not have a full fairing, which seems to be consistent with HD policy.

I am not an expert of the VR1000, beyond what is publicly known:  http://www.superbikeplanet.com/vr1000_obit.htm

The VR1000 was wrought with disaster, and was intended as a track only bike, save for the 50 sold in Poland.  Perhaps it's cooling system worked at track speeds and not on the street.

The 1125 was designed to comply with 2008+ emissions for the USA and Europe which are far stricter than anything the VR1000 had to contend with.  New emissions standards mean a LEAN state of tune which means ALOT more heat must be disippated.

I doubt that HD said, "you must have pods,"  but they did say "no full fairing"  &  "no visible radiators."  From an engineering standpoint that only leaves so many options.  You can debate the cosmetics all you want, but from a function standpoint, the pods work quite well.  My 1125 runs a few degrees cooler than my CBR, and the 1125 generates much more heat.

There is NO WAY IN HELL CW would publish this info if it weren't true.  It just would not make sense to risk a lawsuit.

I mentioned the VR1000 only as an example of a fine looking sport bike from the design studios of HD. Yes, it had a lot of problems and I think HD gave up too early on the bike. BMW's not really having any better luck with their super bike in terms of podiums so far either so we really can't say HD can't build a competitive sport bike because they are HD.   Even with the less than spectacular racing results, I think it's safe to say they are true exotics for well heeled collectors regardless of all the niggles, partially beacuse they're cool looking as well as rare bikes.  

Are you saying the cooling system on your 1125 could only work as well as it does because the pods look like they do? I think it would have worked as well had they used a more pleasing design, and I agree with some others that the looks kept potential buyers away.  It all doesn't matter now anyway.  I would have much preferred Buell stay in business, and introduced updates, like the now shuttered 'Cuda which seemed a major step in the right direction, ie somewhere towards "the middle."  

[Brad1445]

Naked bikes are some of the coolest bikes around.  Even if Harley said they wanted a naked by the way thats why the CR look better than the R it does not mean please go make an ugly bike?

Why not use a top fairing proportioned to the rest of the bike.
Bobble head


WTF were they thinking here?  Design a bike as good as that engine deserved.  It as if they intentionally did not want it to sell.

WHO said this is a good idea?



Dirt bikes have dual radiators and are naked but don't have ugly!

[Brad1445]

Thats for all those hard hours of R&D Buell

[Schneegz]

Brad still hasn't explained why removing Harley from the equation resulted in a superior product.

Erik Buell + Harley =


Erik Buell =


You can't claim that that Harley wasn't the problem when taking Harley out of the equation results in a superior product.

[Brad1445]

Brad still hasn't explained why removing Harley from the equation resulted in a superior product.

Erik Buell + Harley =


Erik Buell =


You can't claim that that Harley wasn't the problem when taking Harley out of the equation results in a superior product.

Then why did Erik not quit, serious.  He lied to everyone on badweb saying "THIS IS EXACTLY THE OOK WE WANTED" direct quote.

After the dealers were backed up Harley likely starts acting like a responsible parent slapped Erik in the head and said wtf go make a bike people want, and that is the bike you see above.

3 years too late.



"the bike looks like a cat, the pods are like claws getting ready to pounce on you.  I guess the clutch fluid is cat pee.

[cooter]

HD engineering can't figure out how to mount ape hangers on the clipons.

28 inch ConvertiBars?

 

[Schneegz]

Then why did Erik not quit, serious.  He lied to everyone on badweb saying "THIS IS EXACTLY THE OOK WE WANTED" direct quote.

After the dealers were backed up Harley likely starts acting like a responsible parent slapped Erik in the head and said wtf go make a bike people want, and that is the bike you see above.

3 years too late.

"the bike looks like a cat, the pods are like claws getting ready to pounce on you.  I guess the clutch fluid is cat pee.

You're attempting to answer a question with a question.  A question is the opposite of an answer.  Therefore, you did not answer my question.  You then attempted to avoid the question by going on to some strange rant about cats.

So answer the question.  If Harley was not the problem, then why did removing Harley from the equation result in a superior product?

[Brad1445]

You're attempting to answer a question with a question.  A question is the opposite of an answer.  Therefore, you did not answer my question.  You then attempted to avoid the question by going on to some strange rant about cats.

So answer the question.  If Harley was not the problem, then why did removing Harley from the equation result in a superior product?

lol, whatever.

[Schneegz]

lol, whatever.

That was also not an answer.  The question, in case you forgot it, is;

If Harley was not the problem, then why did removing Harley from the equation result in a superior product?

[Brad1445]

I bet Buell sells 30-40 Bikes this year.  Thank god Harley is out of the picture.   O wait they are still involved.

[st ryder]

Erik Buell =


You can't claim that that Harley wasn't the problem when taking Harley out of the equation results in a superior product.

Sorry, I don't know so I have to ask: Does that bike have side mounted radiators? IIRC, and AFAIK, Erik Buell was the one who wanted/insisted on side mounted radiators as opposed to conventionaly located.

Do you think maybe the drasitc change/improvement in fairing design might be based on lessons learned?

[whodom]

Then why did Erik not quit, serious.  He lied to everyone on badweb saying "THIS IS EXACTLY THE OOK WE WANTED" direct quote.

Erik didn't quit because (1) he's a big boy; he doesn't take his football home if the other guys won't play like he wants them to (2) he had a legally binding contract and (3) he still thought he'd eventually be able to produce the bike looking like he wanted it to look- the Barracuda 2.  If he'd had another 9 months, he'd have done it.

BTW, WTF is an "OOK"?  

At any rate, how do you know Erik posted on Badweb?  He certainly didn't use his name if he did.  Maybe Court posted that, but Court's just not going to say something contrary to helping Buell.  What do you think would have happened if Erik or Court had come out and said "no, the 1125 doesn't look remotely like we wanted it to look; HD interference is the reason"?  Erik obviously had to "play along" to some extent.  The Barracuda 2 clearly shows they understood what people wanted a superbike to look like and they'd have produced it given the chance.

[Spiffious]

Sorry, I don't know so I have to ask: Does that bike have side mounted radiators? IIRC, and AFAIK, Erik Buell was the one who wanted/insisted on side mounted radiators as opposed to conventionaly located.

Do you think maybe the drasitc change/improvement in fairing design might be based on lessons learned?

Not sure about the rads on this bike... But the 1125 had the side radiators because there wasn't room in front of the engine because they were forced to use as much of the firebolt components as possible... Couldn't afford to do a new frame. (As noted in the article, a large portion of budget problems stem from Harley cost overruns.)

[Brad1445]

Sorry, I don't know so I have to ask: Does that bike have side mounted radiators? IIRC, and AFAIK, Erik Buell was the one who wanted/insisted on side mounted radiators as opposed to conventionaly located.

Do you think maybe the drasitc change/improvement in fairing design might be based on lessons learned?

Then that proves Erik was of unmeasurably large stupidity and so many here protected him as he killed the brand.

By the way you keep posting a race version prototype photo.  I'm talking real life.

So was Erik lying to us now or then?

[Tpoppa]

Posted by 'Anonymous' on Badweb regarding the 1190.  For those of you who do not read Badweb, many feel that 'Anonymous' is Erik.  This may or may not be true, but it's fair to say that it's a Buell insider with access to high level inside information.

"It does have split radiators for weight distribution and better cooling flow. It's just the perpendicular to airflow type off the 1125RR, but in different bodywork. The cooler on the bottom is the oil cooler.

And when you aren't allowed to have a fairing,and are told the radiators have to be hidden, making it all work is one hell of a task. This is what the first 1125 would have looked like if it weren't for corporate directives and design by committee.

Not that the 1125R wasn't cool, but it would have been way more accepted as a sport/sport-touring version built after the superbike racer and superbike street bike if "leadership" hadn't demanded that we not build any "Jap-looking hyperbikes". Of course that means anything that has a fairing. Y'know, "all those Ducatis Hondas and Suzukis look the same, unlike the clear product differentiation between all the H-D models". Gag."


This confirms what most suspected, HD tied Erik's hands & STILL completely lacks any understanding or knowledge about sportbikes.

[chornbe]

Shame.

Correct, the "big 4" sport bikes do all look alike and get more and more so every year with all the model-life leap frogging. All the same and boring as hell. I agree with the desire and need to stand out, but certainly not with bad designs that force crappy compromises.

KTM made the RC8 look *very* distinctive and still incorporates a full-fairing design.

[Tpoppa]

Shame.

Correct, the "big 4" sport bikes do all look alike and get more and more so every year with all the model-life leap frogging. All the same and boring as hell. I agree with the desire and need to stand out, but certainly not with bad designs that force crappy compromises.

KTM made the RC8 look *very* distinctive and still incorporates a full-fairing design.

Agree on the KTM, it's looks are unmistakable.

Not to point blame, but this statement points out that Sportbikes & HD are a poor fit: "And when you aren't allowed to have a fairing,and are told the radiators have to be hidden"

HD obvoiusly knows the Cruiser market well, but in regard to sportbikes, why mandate that radiators have to be hidden?  That comment reminds me of the old HD Nova project.  No sportbike riders are turned off by a visible radiator, it'ds accpted as a technological necessity.

If you are not really into sportbikes anything with a fairing may look the same.  If you are into sportbikes an R6 looks much different than a GSXR.  To a sportbike guy the VTX, Vulcan, and Softail look damn near the same.  

At a red light, I once had a HD guy ask what kind of 'crotchrocket' I was riding, I was on a Honda Pacific Coast at the time.  The PC indeed has a FULL fairing, but couldn't be any further from a 'crotchrocket.'

Again, not blame just pointing out HD has their finger on the pulse of the Cruiser market.  But they just don't 'get' sportbikes.

[chornbe]

Again, not blame just pointing out HD has their finger on the pulse of the Cruiser market.  But they just don't 'get' sportbikes.

Was that ever in question? I mean, seriously, was that ever really a consideration? Ever? The notion is laughable, frankly.

And yes, the nuances between the various sport bikes are numerous and if you look for them, they are obvious... meanwhile they all follow the same formulaic design. "They all look alike." <-- a general, totally irrefutable statement.

$.02

[Brad1445]

.........

HD obvoiusly knows the Cruiser market well, but in regard to sportbikes, why mandate that radiators have to be hidden? ..........

Did they also request ugly over sized bobble head top fairing covering odd shopped pods are feminine in design and flow no other line anywhere on the bike.

Even if the black helicopters over you house or Glen Beck told you Harley ordered those two items, they could have been don in a mean looking and cool way.  Naked bikes rule.  Well most.

Erik could have kept his pride and quit instead of lying to us in front of the camera s your story goes.

Did Harley also request all the bugs in the bike and slow reaction time.  Poor poor Erik, just a victim with a bike that has his name on it.

[rauchman]

Wow, what a shame.  By the looks of the Barracuda 2, they were there.  It sounds to me that if some of the other models and price points had been implemented, they would have faired well.  Rather, if they weren't tied to HD......

Buell, an RCH away from "making it".

[falconati]

Did they also request ugly over sized bobble head top fairing covering odd shopped pods are feminine in design and flow no other line anywhere on the bike.

Even if the black helicopters over you house or Glen Beck told you Harley ordered those two items, they could have been don in a mean looking and cool way.  Naked bikes rule.  Well most.

Erik could have kept his pride and quit instead of lying to us in front of the camera s your story goes.

Did Harley also request all the bugs in the bike and slow reaction time.  Poor poor Erik, just a victim with a bike that has his name on it.

Which bugs are you referring to?

[Rogue]

Which bugs are you referring to?

The huge stink bug up his ass.

The one he keeps releasing in here.  I personally think it's the alcohol talking but what do I know....

[whodom]

The huge stink bug up his ass.

The one he keeps releasing in here.  I personally think it's the alcohol talking but what do I know....

Now, now.  Just because Brad keeps saying it's ALL Erik's fault despite more and more clear evidence to the contrary in print in major publications from people who should know, that's no reason to imply that he's hitting the bottle a little too much...  

[Brad1445]

Which bugs are you referring to?

here are a few off the top of my head..

Parasitic electrical draws
Gas leaks inside peoples garages smell into the home area
rear signals fail some people are on 8th set
5th gear clutch lockup at high speed
erratic behavior from speedo head this includes a long list of different odd issues.
Clutch fluid leaks
premature Wheel bearing failures
inconsistant oil levels from bike to bike to hit mark on dip stick, not matching printed material
Belt Failures
warped brake rotors
EFI issues, I think they are on 7th reflash?  Stalling hard starting.
worn threw brake lines on the front.
rusted exhaust cans
Optional fairing warps from exhaust heat

I could make a complete list but think you may get the idea from the above.

[wbrisett]

Gas leaks inside peoples garages smell into the home area

Belt Failures
rusted exhaust cans

For the most part I've stayed out of this thread because it almost makes no sense to say anything to Brad. He isn't satisfied with the brand anymore and that's fine. Hopefully he'll find the brand and/or bike he loves and move on.

However, I'm going to go on record as agreeing with Brad on two issues, including the gas venting after riding. This was a poor design and while I have learned to leave the garage door cracked for about 30 minutes after parking my CR, it isn't the most ideal situation in the world. However, that said, if I REALLy wanted to fix it, I could, I would simply have to add the California canister onto the bike because at that point, all vented fuel would drip inside the charcoal canister instead of my garage floor.

The belt failures and rusted exhaust cans aren't an issue with the 1125s, they are issues with the XB line. The latest belt from HD/Goodyear seems to hold up much better than previous versions. And I'm not sure you can really blame Buell/HD for them. Yes, they used the GY belts, but this is more of a QC problem at GY than Buell/HD. The exhaust however, is something I simply don't understand (much like the gas venting issue). Nearly every XB out there has an exhaust system that is rusty as hell. The solution has been to simply repaint it with high temp spray paint used on grills. This works, but doesn't explain why they all rust... it's either poor material choices or material quality. I'm not which.

So, there are a few problems. However, that said, most brands have some issues. Ask any KLR owner about their Dohickey issues (an issue that has been going on for 10 years now)!

Buell has fixed a few things on your list Brad, the mapping is a prime example. It took them a while, but nearly everybody I know who has the R and has the latest flash is very happy with the results. On the other hand, the CR never had these issues.

[Squidbuzz]

Is the fuel venting problem only related to the liquid models?

I have an 09 Uly and the only time I have fuel issues is when I fill the gas tank too full and then take it straight to the garage.

Just wondering.

Also, you are spot on about Brad, that is why I lurk.

[Kyle401]

Is the fuel venting problem only related to the liquid models?

I have an 09 Uly and the only time I have fuel issues is when I fill the gas tank too full and then take it straight to the garage.

Just wondering.

My Uly doesn't pour gas out on the floor after a ride, but it does vent a lot of vapor.  This happens whether I just filled up or not.  I think that the frame (tank) continues to absorb heat as the engine is cooling and the fuel vapor expands causing it to vent.  My Bandit did the same thing, but only in July/August and not as bad.  

Since my garage is in my basement under the kids rooms, I have been leaving the bike in the driveway for an hour to let it cool before putting it in the garage.  This seems to have fixed the problem.

[wbrisett]

Is the fuel venting problem only related to the liquid models?

The 1125s (both CR and R) actually heat the fuel in the "tank" so much that liquid drips out of the vent tube and onto the ground. Again, it's not a huge amount, a dozen or so drips, but enough to make the whole garage smell like a refinery. The XB line doesn't have this issue.

Wayne

[discochris]

I do notice a little fuel venting when I get in the garage, but it's so minor that I've never really thought much of it. My Concours used to hiss like a cobra from fuel venting when I parked it, so it's no big deal to me.

Can't say I've really heard much issue with belt failure, at least on the Ulysses (my only experience). I suppose some belts may fail, just like some chains, or most BMW final drives  .

I do agree on the exhaust. I also agree that it's inexcusable from a Quality Control standpoint that this was not something they ever fixed.

I also agree to an extent on the rear bearing issue, but I suspect that it's more of a vocal minority thing than the majority of owners getting stranded on the road. They did update the wheel for 2010 before they decided to shut down.

[Brad1445]

.........Brad. He isn't satisfied with the brand anymore and that's fine. .........

My loss is deep, therefore I hurt!  I'm having trouble moving on. I apologize for my deep deep deep, dark sadness.

 

[rauchman]

I just got my copy of Cycle World in the mail yesterday and read the article.  Mental note - If my lawyer advises me not to sign an agreement, don't sign it.  Especially if they say that if I do sign it, I have to sign something saying that the law firm is not liable for that decision.

I'd be very curious to hear HD's take on this article.  It does paint them in a negative light for sure.  One thing that stood out as hopeful is that Eric Buell has a no-compete contract w/ HD for another year on street bikes.  The article implied that after that, he can do what he wants.

I really can't believe that HD had the B2 destroyed though.  That is a fucking sin!!!  For a while I was seriously considering a Super Glide.  I have to say, reading this article makes me not want to even consider owning a HD....screw 'em.

[bomber]

it is common practice to destroy prototypes . . . no matter how vilianous you think HDI to be, in this case, they ar doing exactly the same thing as the Big 4, and most of the auto manufacturers, as well.

I agree, though, it IS a shame . . . .

[BCRider13]

I just got my copy of Cycle World in the mail yesterday and read the article.  Mental note - If my lawyer advises me not to sign an agreement, don't sign it.  Especially if they say that if I do sign it, I have to sign something saying that the law firm is not liable for that decision.

I'd be very curious to hear HD's take on this article.  It does paint them in a negative light for sure.  One thing that stood out as hopeful is that Eric Buell has a no-compete contract w/ HD for another year on street bikes.  The article implied that after that, he can do what he wants.

I really can't believe that HD had the B2 destroyed though.  That is a fucking sin!!!  For a while I was seriously considering a Super Glide.  I have to say, reading this article makes me not want to even consider owning a HD....screw 'em.

No kidding!  Buell knew what he was getting himself into when he signed with HD, including the possibility that they could pull the plug on the operation.

As for HD saying anything further, I doubt they will say much unless someone brings it up at the shareholders meeting.  Buell was a very small part of the HD operation and while the brand had a loyal following, their numbers are small in the grand scheme of things.  If HD's 1st quarter numbers are positive, and the feeling is they will be, I doubt the shareholders at the meeting will bring it up.  

As for Buell's non-compete ending, that may be true but HD still owns the intellectual property and controls what, if any, designs Buell can use and how.  Of course he can start with a clean slate, but that would effectively end his racing shop until he could produce enough street bikes to meet the homologation requirements.  

Even though Buell is no longer working at HD, he's still tied to them in a big way.  He should have listened to his lawyer.

[bomber]

Even though Buell is no longer working at HD, he's still tied to them in a big way.  He should have listened to his lawyer.

Hindsight is always 20/20,

If Buell HAD listened to his lawyer, Buell would have continued to build motorcycles in a barn for a time, and maybe still be doing so now, but the company would never have been as successful as it was. HDI may not have down right by Buell, at the end of the day (or by themselves, long term, but that remains to be seen), but without HDI or someone else's injection of money, Buell motorcycles as we knew them would not have happened.

[st ryder]

Posted by 'Anonymous' on Badweb regarding the 1190.  For those of you who do not read Badweb, many feel that 'Anonymous' is Erik.  This may or may not be true, but it's fair to say that it's a Buell insider with access to high level inside information....

This confirms what most suspected, HD tied Erik's hands & STILL completely lacks any understanding or knowledge about sportbikes.

 

[Brad1445]

Only here can Harley be bashed after trying to develop a spot bike division, then to throw money after money developing sport bikes, then get the blame when they pull the plug on a dead patient.

1125 was a thud, "ERIK'S DREAM BIKE"  was a turd a non starter.  Maybe it would have been cool in 1988 when he had his dream. The Barracuda II is Harley probably telling Buell to pull their head out of the butts, and make a bike that don't cause a gag reflex but since 'team Buell' still had not solved 3 year old mechanical problems, it was obvious they had the wrong team running their sport devision.   Erik is a big boy, not a victim.  Stand up for whats right, or walk away.

They guy you should be chasing is the guy that dreamed this up 20 years ago and then filled harley basements full of these only sell at $5,000



Drugs kill

[chornbe]

I haven't checked in on this stuff lately. THANK GOD THIS THREAD IS STILL HERE!

[whodom]

Only here can Harley be bashed after trying to develop a spot bike division, then to throw money after money developing sport bikes, then get the blame when they pull the plug on a dead patient.

1125 was a thud, "ERIK'S DREAM BIKE"  was a turd a non starter.  Maybe it would have been cool in 1988 when he had his dream. The Barracuda II is Harley probably telling Buell to pull their head out of the butts, and make a bike that don't cause a gag reflex but since 'team Buell' still had not solved 3 year old mechanical problems, it was obvious they had the wrong team running their sport devision.   Erik is a big boy, not a victim.  Stand up for whats right, or walk away.

They guy you should be chasing is the guy that dreamed this up 20 years ago and then filled harley basements full of these only sell at $5,000

Only here?  You obviously don't get out of this forum much.  HD is getting bashed for this across the internet and it's not just on Buell forums either or just motorcycle forums for that matter.

Do you seriously think HD had ANYTHING to do with the Barracuda, much less "told Buell" to style the bike that way?  Man, read the freaking article.  

Steve Anderson, while he did work for Buell, is a very well known motorcycle journalist and Cycle World would NOT let him put an unsubstantiated article in their pages.  Hell, HD runs ads in every issue.  Do you think THEY are going to be happy about it?  Cycle World knows very well that HD has a notorious legal staff and there is NO WAY they would print anything that they cannot completely back up.  

Erik should have stood up or walked away?  Excuse me, do you understand the phrase "legally binding contract"?  Big boys can't just "stand up or walk away".  They have to play corporate politics to the best of their ability and sometimes they bite their tongues, say "yes sir", and bide their time for the day when they CAN build the bike the way it should be built.  That day is still coming.

[Brad1445]

and sometimes they (Buell) go on and on and on about this is the dream bike, this is what I have been working for for 20 year this is it, look at the prototype.  Great they built a brand new 20 year old bike the market rejected.


Blame who?

The dreamer that did not keep up with the times.

Do not use drugs.

[chornbe]

Just a few points of consideration to no one in particular...

0) does anyone in this thread work at Harley and/or Buell?

1) Harley has owned everything Erik Buell has designed, prototyped, built, productionized or doodled on a napkin over the last 26 years. Everything Buell is building now is built UNDER LICENSE from Harley. If Buell EVER puts fuel in the frame, under-slings a muffler, utters the phrase "trilogy of tech" or "mass centralization" in a marketing publication or document, if he talks about ZTL brakes or wants to use "Buell Motorcycles" as a brand, he has to LICENSE this from Harley, presumably for a long, long time. They *COULD* request an injunction and bring further legal action if he doesn't... IF what we all understand to be the patents' ownerships is correct. Ya'll realize that, right?

2) In the context of street machines - which, by the way, are necessary for any US class-based racing outside of MotoGP - "Erik Buell Racing" will never have the brand recognition and market penetration that "Buell Motorcycles" has or could have had. It says very clearly "Racing" in the name, ergo... forget the idea of it ever being a mainstream name for the common public. And don't even talk about insurance... wheee!

3) Harley made their reasons for shutting down Buell public. As a publicly held company, they are bound to provide the truth to the investors/shareholders. There's no conspiracy here... Stupid decisions, maybe, maybe not, but the reasons are documented and shareholders have the right to challenge those reasons on the basis of honest and factual reporting of the board's decisions. You can pretty reasonably take Harley at their word. It's not necessary to like their decisions, but there's little evidence of a hidden agenda.

4) Brad, do you still suggest that Buell died because the 1125 was a sales flop? If so, what defines a flop? Discontinued bikes? Poor sales numbers? Tech problems? I'm working on a blog post already covering that, but...  in short, there's a refutable argument against any of those points. Some GREAT bikes have been dropped from many manufacturer's lineups over the years; even in recent years some amazing machines have disappeared. Poor sales...? 4 year old VFRs are still available in crates, yet Honda has just released a new VFR derivative, regardless of small sales and warehoused stock on units. Tech problems? Have you ever ridden any other modern FI bike? Show me 10 without snatchy throttles. Hell, show me ONE! Aesthetics...? c'mon... have you SEEN Suzuki bikes? Most are "meh" bordering on hideous in comparison to other marques' offerings. The bug-eyed R1 is fucking hideous. The new CBR1K is as plain jane and boring as a glass of water.

5) It's time to let it all go... really. Places you should get: over it.

[Rogue]

I just read it too.

H-D shot themselves in the foot with this move.  Not only that, their "financial decision" to let go of Buell was created mainly by H-D!  Sure the Recession hit hard but it hit everyone too.  It seems to me that at every turn H-D did something to hurt Buell's chances of success.  The development of the Thunderstorm engine, then the V-Rod engine, then the no-full fairings requirement, and when Buell finally got an engine their deserved in the Helicon, H-D shuts them down.  To rub salt on the wounds, they refuse to sell Buell to Bombardier.  Like really?  Bombardier will want some of Harley's secrets?  Bombardier was only interested in Erik, the 1125, and sportbikes.  But instead of holding on to $125 million in losses, and keeping 200 Americans employed, H-D decides to literally destroy what Erik built and loose the same amount of $$ they invested in Buell in the past 15 years!  Some of you still think it's about financial decisions?  There were large egos involved in it along with a major hatred and prejudice towards the sportbiking market as a whole.

Screw H-D and their attitude towards sportbikes.  All their ranting and flag waving is just a BS.  It's ironic because the most successful American sportbike company was killed by an American Motorcycle company.  H-D is anti-sportbike...always has and there is no indication they will change any time soon.  I will NEVER buy a H-D ever.  

[Rogue]

3) Harley made their reasons for shutting down Buell public. As a publicly held company, they are bound to provide the truth to the investors/shareholders. There's no conspiracy here... Stupid decisions, maybe, maybe not, but the reasons are documented and shareholders have the right to challenge those reasons on the basis of honest and factual reporting of the board's decisions. You can pretty reasonably take Harley at their word. It's not necessary to like their decisions, but there's little evidence of a hidden agenda.

Chris, I must say this with respect:  that is incredibly naive of you to say.

Honest and factual reporting of the BOD's decisions?  Hah!

[chornbe]

Chris, I must say this with respect:  that is incredibly naive of you to say.

Honest and factual reporting of the BOD's decisions?  Hah!

I work in the financial world. Ever since Enron and all that craziness, the amount of eyes on public disclosure of corporate information is... it's crazy. It's insane.

Are there *more* underlying reasons...? Likely, sure. I'm even willing to believe that "harley hates sport bikes" or "harley didn't want erik to succeed" is... I'll say "plausible".

But there is NO WAY they didn't due metric shit tons of provable due diligence and the numbers came up right... the repercussions for fudging that kind of money-based decision are far, far larger than a company the size of Harley could deal with.

[bomber]

I work in the financial world. Ever since Enron and all that craziness, the amount of eyes on public disclosure of corporate information is... it's crazy. It's insane.

This is true -- Sarbanes Oxley has changed the way every publically held company does business -- by a great deal. If you get caught cooking the books in any manner whatsoever, including ways that were perfectly legit just a few years ago, guys with $500 haircuts go to jail.

But there is NO WAY they didn't due metric shit tons of provable due diligence and the numbers came up right... the repercussions for fudging that kind of money-based decision are far, far larger than a company the size of Harley could deal with.

This MAY be true -- on the other hand, it may also be true (and perfectly legal) that they did NO due diligence -- all the law really says is you have to tell the truth, not that you have to be smart.

I've seen a number of reports that HDI ran no numbers when it decided to shutter East Troy.

This would not be fudging anything, unless they said they HAD run numbers without doing so.

No fudging, no foul.

Can't legislate smart.

[SalsaShark]

5) It's time to let it all go... really. Places you should get: over it.

That should be the mantra for most here...

But then again, if it weren't for inane rants from both sides of the fence, this would be a pretty boring forum.

As for me, I just changed the oil in both bikes...

I'll bust out the wash bucket tomorrow and then I'll be out riding... that is all.

[Brad1445]

...... the no-full fairings requirement............they refuse to sell Buell to Bombardier.  


Full Fairing Erik, said they did not want a full fairing over and over that the 1125 was the EXCACT look he wanted, big toop fairing and all.  Said it looked like a car ready to pounce.  Everyone who posted here deep in koolaid said it was good by them, so no fairing needed?  Are the lies today, or yesterday, cant have it both ways.



Bombardier offer. My guess is they only offered market value thats why Harley did not take offer.  Market value had to be close to nothing after three years of bad press/sales.

[Brad1445]

But then again, if it weren't for inane rants from both sides of the fence, this would be a pretty boring forum.

As for me, I just changed the oil in both bikes...

,,,,I'll be out riding... that is all.

I'll take the Tipple, sexy bike, fast as crap.

[whodom]

1) Harley has owned everything Erik Buell has designed, prototyped, built, productionized or doodled on a napkin over the last 26 years. Everything Buell is building now is built UNDER LICENSE from Harley. If Buell EVER puts fuel in the frame, under-slings a muffler, utters the phrase "trilogy of tech" or "mass centralization" in a marketing publication or document, if he talks about ZTL brakes or wants to use "Buell Motorcycles" as a brand, he has to LICENSE this from Harley, presumably for a long, long time. They *COULD* request an injunction and bring further legal action if he doesn't... IF what we all understand to be the patents' ownerships is correct. Ya'll realize that, right?

This is being widely assumed all across the internet, but I've never seen a copy of his contract with HD, have you?  I've seen some strong implications posted by people who should know that this is NOT the case.  I guess we'll find out in about a year.

[chornbe]

This is being widely assumed all across the internet, but I've never seen a copy of his contract with HD, have you?  I've seen some strong implications posted by people who should know that this is NOT the case.  I guess we'll find out in about a year.

No, I haven't. But I've seen things like "being sold under license from Harley" from both the Buell press releases and the Harley camps.

No, I haven't see the contracts, but again... where shareholders are involved, things like this couldn't be in releases without being true (enough) to avoid legal repercussions.

[discochris]

This is being widely assumed all across the internet, but I've never seen a copy of his contract with HD, have you?  I've seen some strong implications posted by people who should know that this is NOT the case.  I guess we'll find out in about a year.

Was just discussing this a few minutes ago.
Pretty sure the fuel in frame at least, was patented by EB prior to Buell being acquired by HD. I know he had multiple other patents prior to that.

Now whether or not HD purchased all of his patents from prior to the acquisition is something I don't know. Obviously anything he patented while an HD employee would be restricted, but other than that, we don't know.

[desert_rider]

 Some of you still think it's about financial decisions?  There were large egos involved in it along with a major hatred and prejudice towards the sportbiking market as a whole.

Screw H-D and their attitude towards sportbikes.  All their ranting and flag waving is just a BS.  It's ironic because the most successful American sportbike company was killed by an American Motorcycle company.  

 

It's almost like H-D had buyers remorse the day after they took controlling interest in the company.

[Brad1445]

 

It's almost like H-D had buyers remorse the day after they took controlling interest in the company.

In all fairness those early days were similar to the ending days, the future was not bright, the product did not have demand and the name had a bad reputation.

The later XB bikes were th high point, some of the funnest bikes - most reliable easy to maintain bikes ever made.

[RideEcono]

It's interesting reading the posts to see some getting really worked up over the design of the pods. Ugly or not, they are very distinctive. For the good or the bad, the bike gets a lot of second and third looks on the road. All I have to say, as a proud owner of one, is throw your leg over the saddle, turn the key and let her rip. Thoughts of how the pods look will be the last thing on your mind as you rip down the road holding on for dear life. I was not a big fan of the look, but rarely give it a second thought now. The bike grows on you.