Scooter as first bike

[sonus]

Lately I've been thinking about getting into riding. At first I was thinking a nice small bike like a Ninja 250 or Rebel would be good to start with, but then I started looking at scooters. Somehow they seem less intimidating, and I like the look of them.

Also, even though I drive a manual car just fine, I feel like there will be enough fear and sensory overload in learning to ride a 2-wheeler that an automatic transmission would be helpful in easing the learning curve. I think I'll have enough to think about with cars trying to kill me and remembering which brake to use at which speed and in which kind of turn, that I'd rather also avoid having a clutch and gear shifting added to the mix.

I've been looking at the Piaggio BV 250 in particular. Aside from the style, I like the 16" wheels and the highway capability, because I've got about 5-10 minutes on the highway during my commute, and I'd like to take it to work once I get a certain level of comfortability and proficiency on it.

Mind you, I've never ridden a motorized 2-wheeler before, and I plan to take the MSF BRC next month to make sure I like the idea of straddling (or sitting on) an engine before I go buy a scooter or bike. Of course, all my friends are suggesting that I get a bike, not a scooter. And of course the bikes they suggest are all 600cc+. I feel slightly peer-pressured by the "bike vs scooter" argument, but am absolutely resolute that whatever I buy will be small and 250cc.

What do people here think? Would a BV 250 be a decent first 2-wheeler? I figure if I hate it, I could always sell it and get a bike...

[chornbe]

Scooters are fun and you can find their limits pretty early on.

The thing that bothers me about using a scooter as a first machine is the lack of shifting; if/when one moves on to a bike with a manual, it's a different (more involved?) way of riding (I didn't say better or worse, just different).

Someone not used to shifting, especially if a rider hasn't spent much time driving a manual car, can be pretty intimidated when met with certain road-going adversity.

[Mr. Whippy]

Nothing wrong with scooters.  My wife prefers a scooter to a motorcycle, precisely because she doesn't want to think about shifting.  If you're just in town (ie not on big open roads), you'll probably never hit the limit of a 250 scooter.  There are bigger scooters too, like the Burgmans and Silverwings (Yamaha has em too, can't think of the name--Helix?/Reflex?).

Anyway, the maxiscoots will hit 100 (by GPS), IME.

Like Chris, I think you'll end up limiting yourself by not learning to shift, but different horses, different courses.  

[Cale_Kat]

sonus, You can't recommend a bike without knowing who's using it and what they're using it for. I think a little background would be helpful. Where will you be riding? Will it be your only means of transportation? What sort of experience to you have with driving? (In other words, will this be the first vehicle of any kind that you've owned?)

[spd2918]

Scooters are fun and you can find their limits pretty early on.

The thing that bothers me about using a scooter as a first machine is the lack of shifting; if/when one moves on to a bike with a manual, it's a different (more involved?) way of riding (I didn't say better or worse, just different).

Someone not used to shifting, especially if a rider hasn't spent much time driving a manual car, can be pretty intimidated when met with certain road-going adversity.

I agree with this.  I teach MSF and think you should get over the shifting now.  If you try to transition later you might find it more difficult.  I like scooters so I would recommend one with a manual transmission.  They are out there. http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/mcy/1785465942.html

[sonus]

sonus, You can't recommend a bike without knowing who's using it and what they're using it for. I think a little background would be helpful. Where will you be riding? Will it be your only means of transportation? What sort of experience to you have with driving? (In other words, will this be the first vehicle of any kind that you've owned?)

Good idea I'm 26, been driving for about 10 years. I live in the Boston area, and my commute is about 20-25 minutes each way, with about 5-10 minutes on route 95, if anyone knows the area. I've owned a few cars, the last 3 of which have been manual, so I'm not new to the idea of shifting and I quite like it, in a car at least.

I've never driven anything with 2 wheels other than a bicycle. I like the idea of minimizing risk as much as possible while still having a good time. I think that attitude comes partly from earning my private pilot license, and the very risk-aware attitude of the pilot community. So that's kind of where I get the idea that the coordination of shifting could be that "one more thing" that pushes me over the edge to the point of overload. That said, maybe after taking the BRC I'll find that shifting on a bike is just as natural as shifting on a car. I really don't know yet.

Scooters are fun and you can find their limits pretty early on.

The thing that bothers me about using a scooter as a first machine is the lack of shifting; if/when one moves on to a bike with a manual, it's a different (more involved?) way of riding (I didn't say better or worse, just different).

I have heard that about scooters on a few occasions (about finding their limits, I mean). On some Q&A forums it seems like the person equates "scooter" with "50cc's, 10-inch wheels and 30mph max speed", and I thought a 250cc scooter with 16" wheels would improve on some of the qualities that people associate with tiny scooters. What sorts of limits will I run into even with the larger scooters?

As I mentioned above, I've driven a manual car for the past 8 years or so, but I sort of view shifting on a bike as possibly something I could "upgrade to" later on when I have a better handle on the basic control and street survival skills. Sort of wading in slowly rather than jumping in with both feet I guess?

[Mr. Whippy]

My wife's 150 cc Genuine Scooter will go from 0-50 very quickly.  It tops out around 60.  Figure the Piaggio will be just slightly North of these numbers.

My Burgman 650 will do 0-70 faster than most cars.  It tops out at around 105.  

However my Ducati is just more fun, faster, more better.  

Sounds like you know the answer.

[chornbe]

Ok, sounds like a good foundation.  

As far as "finding the limits", that's not necessarily a bad thing. They *typically* don't go all that fast or accelerate all that hard. IMO, most situations where someone gets into trouble on a bike are either being flat-out not able to stop the thing (poor braking habits) or because they're not prepared for the acceleration (too much power).

A scooter will help in both ways; typically they brake very well and many of them have a very definite "feel" using the front brakes vs. back brakes, yet even though the bigger ones can reach extra-legal speed pretty quickly, they're almost never neck-snapping accelerators.    Exceptions exist, of course, but in the class you're looking at, you'll be hard pressed to find something that's dangerously powerful.  

Typically, because of the engine/swingarm design, using just the back brakes (very bad), or using the back brakes as the primary (bad) will result in the ass end really squatting down, very noticably. If this happens, it should be a reminder to modulate your braking and use the front more.  

The lack of excessive acceleration, or with newer CVT models, the "sloppy/slippy" acceleration, you're unlikely to get into a situation where you run into a tree or house because "it got away from me".  

They're usually very sedate while still being able to reach normal road speeds, and are typically "just think about it" easy to ride. You think it and it does it, much like a bicycle. This is due to many factors, including short rake, light weight, low CCoG, and a neutral seating position.

Other limits you may find quickly are that they get kind of squirrelly in too-fast/too-deep turns. Because the engine/swingarm setup, the unsprung weight is usually higher than most bikes so the handling in turns and the rough-road feeling at the back end can get a little sloppy. This isn't anything to fear or worry about, provided you take it as the warning it is. Back it down a little.

Another benefit to the CVT and centrifugal transmissions is that just chopping the throttle doesn't always mean you're instantly engine braking down to idle. That's good because as many riders will tell you, chopping the throttle is often akin to slamming on the rear brake. In a turn, this can be bad. Of course, that quality can also lead to sloppy habits because once you transition to a manual-shift bike, chopping the throttle can get really bad, really quickly, so it's best to never do it, regardless of how your particular bike reacts; it's not a consistent thing across all bikes.

IMO, the practicalities of scooters far, far outweigh the potential issues a transitioning rider (with a good head on his shoulders) is likely to see. At one time I had an FJR (a very fast, large and relatively heavy bike) and a Suzuki Burgman (the smaller of the "maxi" scooters) and I had zero trouble transitioning between the two.

The singular best piece of riding equipment is the gray stuff between your ears. Use it and everything else is easy.  

[sonus]

However my Ducati is just more fun, faster, more better.  

Haha, I bet Absolutely not what I should be getting as a first bike though lol

I guess by "first bike" I meant one that I'd be happy with and stick with for a while, not something that I plan to sell and upgrade ASAP. Meaning that I won't necessarily ever "upgrade" to a motorcycle if I got a scooter first, just that I was looking for some input as to what people think is a good introduction to the cycling world.

The biggest differences I see in the scooter are the automatic transmission (which I think might make things more manageable for a newb like mysef) and the step-through-ish design. I say "-ish" because the Piaggio doesn't have a flat floorboard, but it's got a little bump in the middle.

The step-through design is one thing I wonder about -- would it be an advantage or a disadvantage in most crash situations? I could probably imagine situations where each would win for its own reasons, but are there strong arguments for either?

[sonus]

because of the engine/swingarm design

many factors, including short rake, light weight, low CCoG, and a neutral seating position.

engine/swingarm setup, the unsprung weight

The singular best piece of riding equipment is the gray stuff between your ears. Use it and everything else is easy.  

Thanks for that I don't understand a few of those terms, but I picked up and started reading through Proficient Motorcycling last evening and it seems like it'll hit upon a few of them.

[chornbe]

Thanks for that I don't understand a few of those terms, but I picked up and started reading through Proficient Motorcycling last evening and it seems like it'll hit upon a few of them.

Excellent book and lots of great information for any skill level.  

engine/swingarm - many scooters have the engine (or at least the transmission/final-drive) as an actual part of the suspension, rather than firm-mounted in the frame. So the arm where the rear wheel connects is far larger and heavier than a conventional motorcycle. Not all, mind you, but most.

"short rake" refers to the angle the forks are at, relative to perfectly vertical. "short rake" has less angle, like a sport bike, where "long rake" has more angle, like a cruiser or chopper

"neutral seating" just refers to your body position. Typically, the more "neutral" your seating position is, the closer it is to sitting in your typical dining room chair where your hips, knees, elbows and shoulders are all at a very natural - or "neutral" - angle, rather than fully tucked (like a sport bike) or splayed out (like a cruiser).

"unsprung weight" can get complicated - just think of lighter wheels are better than heavier wheels. "unsprung" weight is just that weight below the springs in your suspension. On typical fork bikes, for instance, the unsprung weight up front includes the bottom of the forks. the brake calipers, wheel and tire. Lighter unsprung components make for better handling. And we'll end that discussion there 'cause it can go on and on and on and...  

[Zerosum]

If you go the scooter route, you're smart to select one with larger wheels.  I've known a few people who have wiped out in turns on scooters due to the small wheels simply not providing enough traction.

Personally, I'd go with the motorcycle.  You understand how a manual transmission vehicle works.  This MSF will teach you "When in doubt, engage the clutch."  By the time the MSF is over, you'll have developed the necessary "muscle memory."  Two of the 4 days are 8 hour classes in the parking lot, they really drill it into your head.

You're right to be concerned about adding to the "sensory overload" thing.  However, to combat that, I would suggest NOT riding in urban traffic for the first few hundred miles.  Find a friend who's an experienced rider who will ride with you on suburban/rural roads on the weekends.   Simplify the external environment, not your machine.  You'll pick it up very quicly.

That's how I learned, at least.  I rode my Dad's DR350SE every Saturday for about 6 weeks, with him behind me on his Gold Wing.  He would critique my riding at every stop sign.  Racked up about 1500 miles on that DR before he declared that I was "ready" to get my own bike.  It was extremely helpful.  

[Hoochie Papa]

My wife was very intimidated by the bike I bought her. Problem was that she had a dream of riding since she was a little girl. She tried, but the bike got the best of her. (purely confidence issues)  She bought a 1981 Honda Passport. Got on it and zoomed away. Was light enough she could learn to lean it. She still had to shift, but there was no clutch to use. It really eased her into it. She is on her 3rd bike now. Latest is a '05  800  Boulevard c50.
Start with what you are comfortable with.

[jadziadax8]

My first bike was a Burgman 400 and I feel it really helped me be comfortable learning how to countersteer and corner without the added burden of shifting.  I moved up to my Ninja because I wanted something with longer legs for trips, but I miss the Burgie when it comes to grocery trips and commuting to work.

[sonus]

 By the time the MSF is over, you'll have developed the necessary "muscle memory."  Two of the 4 days are 8 hour classes in the parking lot, they really drill it into your head.

Wow, where did you find a BRC course that was 4 days x 8 hours? The ones in my area seem to be weekend affairs, and about 8-10 hours each day.

[nater]

Don't bother with getting a scooter.  The MSF course will help you develop the skills you need to ride.  I have a feeling you will feel much more confidant after taking the course.  

Also, most MSF courses are just 2 days.

[Zerosum]

Well, when I took it, it started on a Thursday evening.  Two 4-hour evening classroom sessions on Thursday and Friday, and two 8-hour parking lot sessions on Honda Nighthawk 250s on Saturday and Sunday.  I've heard that other states aren't as comprehensive.  

[spd2918]

Well, when I took it, it started on a Thursday evening.  Two 4-hour evening classroom sessions on Thursday and Friday, and two 8-hour parking lot sessions on Honda Nighthawk 250s on Saturday and Sunday.  I've heard that other states aren't as comprehensive.  

The MSF is the MSF.  Some states dole out the hours differently and add state specific information, but it is basically the same all over.

[chornbe]

Yeah, it's different all over.

In PA, it's two evenings in the classroom, two days on the range.

[Rusty the Scoob]

I bought a 50cc Honda Ruckus in September of 2007 strictly as a commuting tool from Waltham to Boston, not really intending to become a motorcyclist at the time.   Soon I was reading Proficient Motorcycling, and by January 2008 I owned my SV and took the MSF in April of that year, the first weekend it was offered.   So I had a pretty similar experience to the one that you are contemplating.

If you go the scooter route, you are smart to get the larger engine and wheels.  The tiny wheels on the Ruckus loved to drop into every pothole, and the engine would sometimes leave you a sitting duck in traffic even with the throttle pinned.  

I personally hated the bolt-upright seating position of the Ruckus... having come from bicycles I was frustrated by not being able to get my weight onto my feet for bumps, and my back hated getting bounced around mercilessly - and I'm fairly in-shape and healthy in my early 30s.  It reminded me of sitting in an office chair and going down the street at 40 mph.

I think since you want a 250cc machine, you'd be better off in the long run with a 250cc Ninja or something along those lines.  All of the legal advantages of a scooter are only for 50cc machines.  You'll learn to shift pretty well at the MSF class, well enough so that as long as you're willing to take a few extra weekend rides before hopping into commuting traffic, you'll be fine when you do.  But if you just want to be commuting as quickly as possible, the Piaggio is a fine choice.