"What the heck gives?"

[Schneegz]

From Asphalt and Rubber:





In an obvious ploy to drum up some excitement for their eventual return to the street, Erik Buell Racing released the video above of an 1190RR fitted with a tail light, turn signals and radiator fans - equipment it'll obviously need for street use.  

I guess it just wouldn't be a Buell without the annoying, noisy cooling fans.  

[Capirex]

I've heard told that loud fans save lives.

[Rincewind]

I liked their redneck reporter.  I re-iterate his driving question, "What the heck gives?"

[Brad1445]

Aa a buy American 5 time Buell owner I have to say its going to take a lot more work to bring that bike up to competitiveness with other manufactures in quality and reliability.

Can you see if its leaking clutch fluid, or the speedometer works, is the stator working. This bike needs a complete re-do if they want people to pay over $5,000 for them. I still go to bad web everyday, its sad to see people with brand new bikes sitting in shops weeks after weeks and then go back again.

I would love to see Buell bikes selling again, but you cant wipe the stink off this 1125 series. I would pay $1,500 max for a new one just to use as a track bike.  It does handle, but Even Pontiac could not sell the formally problem prone  Fiero  even when they finally fixed everything, it was just to late the name was ruined.  And they had looks that people liked.

If you want to sell a Bike Erik, start over, lose anything recognizable with the 1125 and test it before you release it this time.  I'll be in line for a new one if you do that.  1199cc please.

[Rincewind]

Then there is the not-small issue of no dealer network anymore!  

[SalsaShark]

Then there is the not-small issue of no dealer network anymore!  

Was there ever a dealer network? Sorry, but being insulted and treated like crap because you don't want to buy a chromed out tractor is not my idea of a competent dealer network...

If Buell does rise from the ashes, I hope they come back and get in where they belong... In the dealerships that care more about performance than matching leather skull caps.

[Rincewind]

Was there ever a dealer network? Sorry, but being insulted and treated like crap because you don't want to buy a chromed out tractor is not my idea of a competent dealer network...

If Buell does rise from the ashes, I hope they come back and get in where they belong... In the dealerships that care more about performance than matching leather skull caps.

Granted what you said about service experiences, HD did provide critical things such as the distribution network and funding.  Erik is already at the stage of asking for donations because of thin sponsorship money in his race endeavors.

How can Buell start to even manufacturer production bikes again now that his factory is gone?  I can see them making hand-produced, high-priced, street-legal race replicas in small production numbers.  But I doubt that they will be able to make Buells again at the same price point and with the same level of availability unless they get the backing of another big manufacturer.

[xbud]

[How can Buell start to even manufacturer production bikes again now that his factory is gone?  I can see them making hand-produced, high-priced, street-legal race replicas in small production numbers.  But I doubt that they will be able to make Buells again at the same price point and with the same level of availability unless they get the backing of another big manufacturer.

I think your right, they will probably build niche market bikes for a while until maybe Can-Am desides it wants to get involved. Just a hunch....

[Mastros2]

How can Buell start to even manufacturer production bikes again now that his factory is gone?  I can see them making hand-produced, high-priced, street-legal race replicas in small production numbers.  But I doubt that they will be able to make Buells again at the same price point and with the same level of availability unless they get the backing of another big manufacturer.

He's been there before and has the experience.  

[Brad1445]

He's been there before and has the experience.  

And he failed.  Even with a huge distribution system and all the R&D  $$$$ to build the successful XB series.

If he had not screwed up the Rotax (dream engine) Buell it would have dominate the market.

We could of had a prince, but we got a frog.

[Oilhed]

And he failed.  Even with a huge distribution system and all the R&D  $$$$ to build the successful XB series.

If he had not screwed up the Rotax (dream engine) Buell it would have dominate the market.

We could of had a prince, but we got a frog.

He didn't fail, H-D failed him.  If the Buells were sold along with Triumphs and Ducatis they would have thrived.  If he were allowed to build and sell the rotax bikes he wanted to on his timetable they would have done well.  The beancounters killed Buell!  And I still want a Uy!!!

[Rogue]

The beancounters killed Buell!  And I still want a Uy!!!

It wasn't the Beancounters that killed Buell, it was H-D's new CEO and other VP's they had up there.  The H-D is a sportbike-hating corporation.  They loath anything that looks like a sportbike and that is why they prevented Buell from thriving.

Don't bother explaining this to Brad--he has made it a mission in life to trash-talk Buell.

[Mastros2]

It wasn't the Beancounters that killed Buell, it was H-D's new CEO and other VP's they had up there.  The H-D is a sportbike-hating corporation.  They loath anything that looks like a sportbike and that is why they prevented Buell from thriving.

Don't bother explaining this to Brad--he has made it a mission in life to trash-talk Buell.

  I agree.

[SalsaShark]

Don't bother explaining this to Brad--he has made it a mission in life to trash-talk Buell.

but it's been a while since Brad's had to drag that huge cross he bares...

[Brad1445]

If I hate Buell why did I buy 5 of them?  Why was the lightning still the best selling model at the end?

In the real world the 1125 is a joke in styling and reliability.  People apparently like those things.

Show a picture to ten people, vs a successful bike.

Basements full of these things leaking - no  starting machines.  It took $5,000 rebates to sell them.

[steve.m]

 And I still want a Uy!!!

I have one, I love it.  No, you can't have it  

i mean really though, how hard would it be for any one of us to screw some lights to a track bike and take it for a spin on the street?  not very.  if buell goes back to the street, he's building one off machines out of a comparably tiny shop with no major manufacturing capabilities.  buy factory direct, and SAVE!

[ScottB]

The H-D is a sportbike-hating corporation.  They loath anything that looks like a sportbike and that is why they prevented Buell from thriving.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was a marketing/finance decision, rather then a personal vendetta against the rest of the motorcycling world.  I'm not saying it was a good decision (especially from the viewpoint of enthusiasts), I think they had assets that weren't paying off, found themselves in financial trouble, and sold out/cut off Buell and MV.

[whodom]

Wow- I haven't logged into the forum in months, and sure enough, the first thread I check, there's Brad going off on pods again.

The boy really knows how to flog a dead horse.

[Schneegz]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was a marketing/finance decision, rather then a personal vendetta against the rest of the motorcycling world.  I'm not saying it was a good decision (especially from the viewpoint of enthusiasts), I think they had assets that weren't paying off, found themselves in financial trouble, and sold out/cut off Buell and MV.

It was.  Harley doesn't "hate" sport bikes (as previously stated), they simply don't understand them or their owners.  That doesn't change the fact that Harley never gave Buell the resources or the freedom to succeed, and forced Buell to do many things that set them up for failure.

Buell designed the original 1000cc, liquid cooled, narrow angle, compact, superbike v-twin, but Harley refused to fund a Buell-only project, so they took over the project and turned it into the V-Rod engine, which was too big and heavy to make a good sportbike engine.  Buell abandoned the project.

Buell then focussed on developing the Thunderstorm engine with several different bore and stroke ratios and displacements, and even turbo charging.  Harley forced Buell to keep the engine close enough to the Sportster engine that Harley could easily carry over the development Buell did on the Thunderstorm to the Sportster.  The change in direction cost Buell time and money and made the XB series more expensive and less powerful than it had to be.

Harley forced Buell to build the Blast, a bike Buell never wanted to build.  Buell at first planned to use an off-the-shelf, liquid cooled single cylinder engine, but Harley again forced Buell to use the Sportster engine, making the Blast more expensive and under-performing than it had to be.

Harley forced Buell to sell their bikes exclusively through Harley dealerships.  Harley dealers generally don't understand and often don't like sport bikes or their owners, and customer service suffered as a result.

When Buell finally got permission from Harley to develop the 1125R, Harley refused to provide any funding for the project.  In order to cut costs, Buell used some XB parts on the 1125R.  Many of the 1125R's teething problems can probably be attributed to a lack of funding for testing.  Despite providing no funding, Harley insisted the bike should not have a full fairing, again demonstrating their lack of understanding of the sportbike customer.  

In short, Harley set Buell up for failure.  It's debatable whether or not Buell would have gotten as far as it did without Harley - after all, others have done it, and some (see Motus) are doing it now.

What is clear is that Harley placed road block after road block in Buell's path.  

[Brad1445]

Thats a good post but you still need product that customers want at a price you can be profitable.

[Tyrroneous]

Thats a good post but you still need product that customers want at a price you can be profitable.

Brad, I think its clear in Schneegz's post that Erik WANTED to build bikes that customers desired, but Harley repeatedly road-blocked those attempts.  Those road-blocks forced Buell to go off in tangents that weren't always successful.

[chornbe]

FWIW, the whole Harley & Sport Bikes discussions really need to end. It's a stupid topic.

1- and 2-year old, leftover SS/RR bikes are available at thousands upon thousands off MSRP at every dealership I can drive to in under an hour. And still they sit. Yet Harley is still selling what they build, and they're tweaking what they build to keep their buyers happy and coming back. Sport bikes are not the cash cows that someone like Harley builds, or that is demanded by the people who buy from Harley.

Others do that job very, very well... and still can't sell them. Let Harley be Harley.

Why is that so evil?

[bomber]

FWIW, the whole Harley & Sport Bikes discussions really need to end. It's a stupid topic.

snip

Others do that job very, very well... and still can't sell them. Let Harley be Harley.

Why is that so evil?

And yet, here we are! ;-}

It's not evil, at least, I don't think so.

It IS disappointing to many, who were hoping that HDI would attempt to break out of it's narrow niche (a huge niche, but a niche nonetheless), and for others who wanted to buy an American bike that wasn't a cruiser.

It's ironic the narrowminded leadership almost killed HDI once (well, more than once), setting up a takeover by the youngbloods that put it in the enviable position it is in today. The irony comes in now that the former youngbloods don't seem to be interrested in doing anything other than repeating their earlier successes.

Not evil, but certainly disappointing.

[Schneegz]

Thats a good post but you still need product that customers want at a price you can be profitable.

Which is nearly impossible to do when your parent company blocks your every attempt to do so.

[chornbe]

Which is nearly impossible to do when your parent company blocks your every attempt to do so.

I'd still love to have an XB in the garage. I like what they put out, even with the roadblocks. Makes you wonder...

[Schneegz]

I'd still love to have an XB in the garage. I like what they put out, even with the roadblocks. Makes you wonder...

We probably won't have to wonder much longer.  The question of whether Harley hindered Buell or not will be answered beyond a shadow of a doubt if Buell's new bikes - free of Harley's influence - are better or worse than the ones they built for Harley.

[chornbe]

We probably won't have to wonder much longer.  The question of whether Harley hindered Buell or not will be answered beyond a shadow of a doubt if Buell's new bikes - free of Harley's influence - are better or worse than the ones they built for Harley.

Except that - currently - he's licensing the XB-style frames from Harley, as well as a few other bits... from what I understand. As long as that's true, there simply is no "free of Harley's influence".

I hope I have that wrong and that he maintains 100% of the patent/design copyright, etc., on the bikes and parts.

[wbrisett]

Harley forced Buell to build the Blast, a bike Buell never wanted to build.  Buell at first planned to use an off-the-shelf, liquid cooled single cylinder engine, but Harley again forced Buell to use the Sportster engine, making the Blast more expensive and under-performing than it had to be.

Sorry, Court and others would tell you otherwise.

It seems that in order to build a bike that was a solid no-maintenance style bike, they went with the design. Nobody at HD wanted to build the bike, they ASKED, not forced Erik if he was interested... at least that's the story Court and the elves seem to present when asked, and I'm inclined to believe it. HD is many things, but they aren't the total evil empire people make them out to be. I think the board of directors has shown they are incompetent, and the new CEO is lacking any sort of real knowledge at times, but I don't really think they are doing things just because they know it will upset people.

Wayne

[bomber]

Sorry, Court and others would tell you otherwise.

It seems that in order to build a bike that was a solid no-maintenance style bike, they went with the design. Nobody at HD wanted to build the bike, they ASKED, not forced Erik if he was interested... at least that's the story Court and the elves seem to present when asked, and I'm inclined to believe it. HD is many things, but they aren't the total evil empire people make them out to be. I think the board of directors has shown they are incompetent, and the new CEO is lacking any sort of real knowledge at times, but I don't really think they are doing things just because they know it will upset people.

Wayne

This is true -- however, it is equally true that Court, Erik, and other associated with the effort were all doing their best to sell the brand, sell bikes, and and make the business work (as they should).

This includes things like saying "there is no reason to put a water cooled engine in our bikes," and the crush the Blast video. It's marketing, not telling untruths.

No one who wasn't intimately involved will ever know all the ins and outs of the passion play -- but I guess that's part of the fun, isn't it?

[chornbe]

This is true -- however, it is equally true that Court, Erik, and other associated with the effort were all doing their best to sell the brand, sell bikes, and and make the business work (as they should).

This includes things like saying "there is no reason to put a water cooled engine in our bikes," and the crush the Blast video. It's marketing, not telling untruths.

And I continue to fail to understand why this makes Harley "evil" or "bad" in so many peoples' eyes.

PS... I also do NOT think that Harley's board are "incompetent" and I do not think the CEO is necessarily a bad guy, either. What is the CEO's job? Is it to ride motorcycles or make money? Let me help.. it's to make money. Period.

Anyone on this site ever read The Customer Comes Second by Hal Rosenbluth?

Bottom line: Run the business YOU want to run. Build the products YOU want to build. Sell the merchandise YOU want to sell.

Suzuki couldn't GIVE away bikes over the last 2 years.
Honda can't give their CBRs away.
Yamaha has trimmed their sport bike offerings and went in less than awesome directions with the FZ8.
I don't have Harleys any more, but I work on a few, I maintain a few and because of that and because the guys at my local dealer are fun, I show up there a lot. I see a lot of stock turning over there.

Something's working.

No one who wasn't intimately involved will ever know all the ins and outs of the passion play -- but I guess that's part of the fun, isn't it?

Plus, how many people on this site 1) could do better (no, seriously) and 2) even truly give a fuck what Harley does... ya know, 'cause the bikes suck, are over priced and "they don't build anything I want".



Seriously, people... get the fuck over it.

Erik Buell is still in business. I'm sure he'd love to get some phone calls asking about his plans and I'm sure he'd love a visit by some enthusiasts to his shop. I'm SURE he wants to put Harley behind him.

[bomber]

One of the things that Buell (the company) did was to encourage people to get involved with the brand (directly with the factory -- Buell was a very heavy web presence early on, documents and training stuff posted on line -- direct email links to factory folks) -- much like HDI, they marketed their products, but, also, the rider's relationship to the Factory (and brand).

No surprise, then, that when things change, some of those who DID bond with the brand get cranky.

This is simply the other side of the "why don't you get a real bike" coming from HD riders to Buell riders. ;-}

Your self-assumed role as an apparent Harley booster should position you to understand other's similar feelings about another brand, i.e., Buell {though some might go a bit further than you do}.

Your desire to understand other people's emotions is, perhaps, laudable, but fraught with frustration, and, I believe, doomed to failure.

[chornbe]

Oh, the last thing I want to do is understand people.  

I just don't get the obsession. This shit happened - and was bound to happen - completely apart from and outside the context of "customer approval".

Buell had his ideas (1125R), Harley had their ideas (Blast).

Neither of those things really came from or "clicked" with the buyers.

Ya know, like the VFR1200 or the DN-01.

It happened. Move on.

[bomber]

It happened. Move on.

Oh, I agree entirely -- it is a wonderful illustration of what can happen if you get TOO close to your customers . . . .

[Schneegz]

Except that - currently - he's licensing the XB-style frames from Harley, as well as a few other bits... from what I understand. As long as that's true, there simply is no "free of Harley's influence".

I hope I have that wrong and that he maintains 100% of the patent/design copyright, etc., on the bikes and parts.

Even if that's true, Harley has no say in what EBR builds or sells, therefore, my analysis stands.  If EBR succeeds, they do so on their own.  If they fail, they do so on their own.  Unless they sell out to some other large company.  We'll see.

[Schneegz]

Sorry, Court and others would tell you otherwise.

It seems that in order to build a bike that was a solid no-maintenance style bike, they went with the design. Nobody at HD wanted to build the bike, they ASKED, not forced Erik if he was interested... at least that's the story Court and the elves seem to present when asked, and I'm inclined to believe it. HD is many things, but they aren't the total evil empire people make them out to be. I think the board of directors has shown they are incompetent, and the new CEO is lacking any sort of real knowledge at times, but I don't really think they are doing things just because they know it will upset people.

Wayne

If you can point out where in any of my posts I've called HD "evil" do so, otherwise don't use that term when responding to one of my posts.  Same goes with talk of "doing things just because they know it will upset people".

I also don't think Harley or their Board are incompetent.  They know the cruiser business inside out and play it better than anyone.  But that's all they know.  They don't know the sportbike market, and I believe their handling of Buell proves it.  Most experts are only experts in one field.  Harley and their board are no exception.

[Brad1445]

Harley was the gift that breathed life into Buell R&D $$$?????

Market is down, but Triumph and BMW sales are up.

Seems its supply and DEMAND, Buell would have been better focusing on the aging product line up vs the premature ill conceived hard to look at 1125 series.  The press printed the headstone when Buell handed keys over to defective bikes.

It is sad. I miss Buell and would love another Ulysses if I thought parts would not be an issue.

I dreamed, many dreamed of the water cooled bike to come some day  With Buell handing belt drive it should have owned the market.  They took the customer for granted.  it would take 8 years of good bikes to undo the damage the 1125 did.

I wish I could buy American, so yes I have some strong feeling against Erik Buell who did not stand up to protect his name or had out lived his dreams. I was waving his flag higher than anyone.  I converted several friends, but then he built a bike that would have been a hit in 1988.  Unfortunately its 2010 and there are a lot of good bikes out there.

Stupid meter is pegged in the red on this one.  Not one employee had the balls to stand up to tell the emperor he had no clothes?????

[steve.m]

Brad, that's just blind ranting,

how many times have auto makers released a product that had break in issues that were ironed out in subsequent generations.  a small company like buell probably placed a lot of faith in the resources it had putting the 1125 to market and had some teething issues.  big deal, most folks who own buells are handy people who could swap a leaking clutch cover gasket.  lets move on from serial #000000001 issues.  they're inherent in ANY design.  

HD is contracted to support buell for 7 years.  There's 6 or so years left, so if you still have the uly you claim to want, i'd say you got your use out of it, buy spare parts before support ends (pads and rotors especially) and you'll be good to go.  take a look at the screaming eagle line for the sportster...i'd say 95% of it carries over and could keep you running.  parts are almost a non-issue so long as you don't wreck.

whining about wanting a water cooled engine when air cooled mill works perfectly fine is pointless, i've ridden my uly in some nasty heat without a hiccup from the engine, maybe a little down on power,  but still enjoyable to ride.

if you're gonna step to the plate and buy buell #5, you really better start swinging before all you're left with are used machines without factory warranties.

[chornbe]

[wbrisett]

If you can point out where in any of my posts I've called HD "evil" do so, otherwise don't use that term when responding to one of my posts.

I didn't point any fingers at ANYONE. However, there is an undercurrent especially among Buell owners that HD is evil. I was simply stating that I don't feel this way. I do however think that there have been many decisions (buying, at an inflated price, then selling back MV Augusta for nearly nothing) where the board has shown some serious ineptitude. Whether shutting down Buell falls into this category is all speculation and I'll leave it alone. I do question, as I'm sure all shareholders do, why they didn't try selling Buell when there were serious offers for the company. Now, granted we're not all privy to the gory details of the offer, but it seems to me that some money is better than no money.

So, I'll apologize if you feel I singled you out. That wasn't the intent of my response.

Wayne

[Kootenanny]

In short, Harley set Buell up for failure.  It's debatable whether or not Buell would have gotten as far as it did without Harley - after all, others have done it, and some (see Motus) are doing it now.

I dunno.  Without H-D's investments in Buell, I doubt the XB line would ever have come into production, at least not in the volume they were (and at an affordable price point, too).  Buell would have been another Fischer or Roehr, but in the infancy of the internet, who knows if they would have succeeded at all?  As for Motus, I'll believe it when I see one on the road, or a shop floor (and at an affordable price).  Until then, they're just another dream...

And despite what some have said, I don't think Harley's management is "evil," just shortsighted.  They put $125M into Buell over the course of more than a decade, then...paid that much again to shut BMC down, even though it was bringing in a profit.  Hmmm...

[Schneegz]

Seems its supply and DEMAND, Buell would have been better focusing on the aging product line up vs the premature ill conceived hard to look at 1125 series.  The press printed the headstone when Buell handed keys over to defective bikes.

The 1125R would've been just fine if it had received any funding from the parent company, or if Harley had at least not forced Buell to lose money on every Blast it sold, thereby freeing up more of Buell's money to go into R&D.

[Schneegz]

I dunno.  Without H-D's investments in Buell, I doubt the XB line would ever have come into production, at least not in the volume they were (and at an affordable price point, too).  Buell would have been another Fischer or Roehr, but in the infancy of the internet, who knows if they would have succeeded at all?  As for Motus, I'll believe it when I see one on the road, or a shop floor (and at an affordable price).  Until then, they're just another dream...

Every motorcycle company started somewhere, most of them in somebody's garage long before anyone dreamed up the Internet.  Of course it's difficult for a newcomer to compete, but it's definitely possible.  Every motorcycle company was a newcomer at some point.

[Kootenanny]

Every motorcycle company started somewhere, most of them in somebody's garage long before anyone dreamed up the Internet.  Of course it's difficult for a newcomer to compete, but it's definitely possible.  Every motorcycle company was a newcomer at some point.

Name me another motorcycle manufacturer who started in a garage in the 80s, and got into production as much as Buell was.  Without deep pockets (like Bloor--and Triumph didn't start in a garage in the 80s), this is a very difficult thing to do.  Whatever happened to Czysz, with all the money at his disposal?  How about Fischer and Roehr?  Or Confederate?  None of these are what you'd call "production manufacturers."

No, I don't think Buell would ever have become more than a small "boutique" brand without Harley's investment.  Yes, it came with strings attached (and eventually those strings were used to hang him), but I think Erik Buell knew exactly what he was doing when he decided to climb into bed with H-D.

[falconati]

Confederate is actually doing very well.

[Oilhed]

They put $125M into Buell over the course of more than a decade, then...paid that much again to shut BMC down, even though it was bringing in a profit.  Hmmm...

I wonder how much "profit" this got from Buell sales and parts over the years and how much they could have got if they sold Buell

[Kootenanny]

Confederate is actually doing very well.

Perhaps, but they are still pretty small time.  I have yet to ever actually see one "in the flesh" (much as I'd like to!)

On the other hand,I have seen many Buells, and I can actually afford to own one...

[Rincewind]

Perhaps, but they are still pretty small time.  I have yet to ever actually see one "in the flesh" (much as I'd like to!)

On the other hand,I have seen many Buells, and I can actually afford to own one...

I see a lot of different bikes in my area.  I've only ever seen Confederates at the NYC Auto Shows.  They are the definition of an American Boutique Bike.  They are a completely different model from Buell.

[chornbe]

Yeah, shows only. And the ones I've seen were... uhm... can I say hideous? Is that family friendly enough?

[bomber]

Confederates sell to the same folks that buy ugly, multi-thousand dollar wrist watches -- the company stiffed a number of customers after Katrina (hey, we had a flood. Your bike will be late. Oh, and twice as expensive, cuz, you know, we had a flood). I'm surprised they are still around.

[steve.m]

as for affordable, i really like the fact that i sold my harley, bought a brand new uly xt at firesale prices, stayed in the black and could afford to buy my girlfriend and myself new riding gear with the leftovers from the sportster sale.  i realize i got the thing half off, but still, the price was right enough for me to want one down the road, and made it a "must have" when the slash and burn started  .  never been happier with another bike's abilities.  that's all i can say for my buell.

[Brad1445]

HD's only fault was not firing all the top people at Buell when they showed them the prototype for the 1125.  

Its like the Johnny cash song, one piece at a time.  You can tell something is wrong if it has three headlights and only one tail-fin.

The visual cues tell the whole story on how little care was taken in making sure it was one cohesive quality piece,

Turned out its just a piece.

The XB line rocked, I love air cooled twins.  

Shame on Eric for not taking pride in his work.  Harley is not to blame.  They made him a success and he blew it with the 1125.  

Why was the failure let to rot for three model years.  Drugs have to be involved as common sense was thrown out the window,

Not Harley's fault!  Its Buells failure.  He could have gone to press in 2007 and told the world he was being forced to make a frankin-bike.

[wbrisett]

as for affordable, i really like the fact that i sold my harley, bought a brand new uly xt at firesale prices, stayed in the black

I had a hard time passing up the bargain pricing myself, even though I had two perfectly good motorcycles already. While I don't get to ride the 1125CR as much as I would like, on days like today where I only have to haul myself to and from work, it's the perfect ride. The fact that, like you, I didn't have to go knee deep in debt and could write them a check, was a huge bonus.

[whodom]

Not Harley's fault!  Its Buells failure.  He could have gone to press in 2007 and told the world he was being forced to make a frankin-bike.

Just won't let it go, will he?

[wbrisett]

Just won't let it go, will he?

See, you did the wrong thing. You responded. Just ignore it and it'll go away.

[steve.m]

I had a hard time passing up the bargain pricing myself, even though I had two perfectly good motorcycles already. While I don't get to ride the 1125CR as much as I would like, on days like today where I only have to haul myself to and from work, it's the perfect ride. The fact that, like you, I didn't have to go knee deep in debt and could write them a check, was a huge bonus.

yup yup, cash for toys, credit for necessities

[Schneegz]

Name me another motorcycle manufacturer who started in a garage in the 80s, and got into production as much as Buell was.  Without deep pockets (like Bloor--and Triumph didn't start in a garage in the 80s), this is a very difficult thing to do.  Whatever happened to Czysz, with all the money at his disposal?  How about Fischer and Roehr?  Or Confederate?  None of these are what you'd call "production manufacturers."

No, I don't think Buell would ever have become more than a small "boutique" brand without Harley's investment.  Yes, it came with strings attached (and eventually those strings were used to hang him), but I think Erik Buell knew exactly what he was doing when he decided to climb into bed with H-D.

Czysz is developing electric power trains for an Indian car manufacturer (I believe it's Tata [insert joke here], but I'm not sure).  If that venture pans out, it'll be much bigger than anything Buell's done so far, or Ducati or Triumph, for that matter.  Brammo and Zero both sell production motorcycles, and though they're small, they're growing.  Highland  is back in operation (now US Highland).  Yes, they're all unconventional ventures, but that's how small companies grow - by being unconventional and innovative.

We can argue endlessly about how Buell would've done without Harley.  We'll never know unless you have an alternative universe machine (I don't).  What we can and will know is how Buell will succeed or fail without Harley in the next few years.  

If they succeed, it'll prove that Harley held them back all those years.

If they fail, we'll know that wasn't the case.

In the mean time, here's what MCN has to say about that... whatever that's worth (yeah, I know).

[Kootenanny]

Czysz is developing electric power trains for an Indian car manufacturer (I believe it's Tata [insert joke here], but I'm not sure).  If that venture pans out, it'll be much bigger than anything Buell's done so far, or Ducati or Triumph, for that matter.  Brammo and Zero both sell production motorcycles, and though they're small, they're growing.  Highland  is back in operation (now US Highland).  Yes, they're all unconventional ventures, but that's how small companies grow - by being unconventional and innovative.

Developing electric power trains for a large automaker is not quite the same as developing, producing, and selling motorcycles.  Brammo and Zero (and now Roehr, and I believe Czysz as well) are developing a whole new market with the electric bikes--they're not competing with any large, established companies (yet...until one of 'em sells out, as Buell did to H-D--and I don't mean that in a bad way).  Highland is about the closest parallel to Buell--I'd like to see them succeed, but then again, Highland has been around for almost as long as Buell has, and they're just now getting back into the motorcycle market (after giving up at least once).

[Schneegz]

Developing electric power trains for a large automaker is not quite the same as developing, producing, and selling motorcycles.  Brammo and Zero (and now Roehr, and I believe Czysz as well) are developing a whole new market with the electric bikes--they're not competing with any large, established companies (yet...until one of 'em sells out, as Buell did to H-D--and I don't mean that in a bad way).  Highland is about the closest parallel to Buell--I'd like to see them succeed, but then again, Highland has been around for almost as long as Buell has, and they're just now getting back into the motorcycle market (after giving up at least once).

The money Motoczysz makes from developing power trains will go into their motorcycle business.

Electric motorcycle manufacturers are competing with all other motorcycle manufacturers.  They're still building motorcycles.  Anyone considering buying an electric bike will compare it to gas powered bikes of similar price and decide for themselves whether or not the electric bike offers anything to make up for their diminished capabilities.  Either way, electric bikes do compete with gas powered bikes, just like hybrid cars compete with gas powered cars and electric cars.

You're not going to find a perfect parallel to Buell or any other company.  Each company finds its own route to success or failure.  But they all have to start somewhere, and that usually means very small beginnings.

[Brad1445]

See, you did the wrong thing. You responded. Just ignore it and it'll go away.

Nope, I put this in the same category as the The catholic church protecting pedophiles, or the 2000 presidential election decided by the supreme court. Lessons are learned only when you talk about it.

Buell was a cool company, and started producing crap.  A TRUE Buell fan would find that worthy of  discussion and accountability or the same mistakes would happen again.  Erik Buell does not have the ability to run a bike company.  

TH XB series one awards, Rotax makes the best engines in the world, how do you F that up?  Inexcusable!

[Jesse]

Nope, I put this in the same category as the The catholic church protecting pedophiles, or the 2000 presidential election decided by the supreme court. Lessons are learned only when you talk about it.

Buell was a cool company, and started producing crap.  A TRUE Buell fan would find that worthy of  discussion and accountability or the same mistakes would happen again.  Erik Buell does not have the ability to run a bike company.  

TH XB series one awards, Rotax makes the best engines in the world, how do you F that up?  Inexcusable!

Brad,

Talking about things is indeed good BUT the conversation in the form it has taken here has run its course and I say that with all due respect and as someone who valued your input before and after the closure of Buell.

Jesse

[xbud]

Brad,

Talking about things is indeed good BUT the conversation in the form it has taken here has run its course and I say that with all due respect and as someone who valued your input before and after the closure of Buell.

Jesse

And that is coming from a rather reserved person when it comes to making public statements.

[Kootenanny]

The money Motoczysz makes from developing power trains will go into their motorcycle business.

Which is now an electric motorcycle business, AFAIK.  And the point here is--he's not making money by selling motorcycles, if he has to fund the motorcycle production with something else.  Buell was in the same boat--not making enough money to keep the business afloat with motorcycle production only, so he "sold out" to a major motorcycle manufacturer, who basically paid him to develop and produce motorcycles...

Electric motorcycle manufacturers are competing with all other motorcycle manufacturers.  They're still building motorcycles.  Anyone considering buying an electric bike will compare it to gas powered bikes of similar price and decide for themselves whether or not the electric bike offers anything to make up for their diminished capabilities.  Either way, electric bikes do compete with gas powered bikes, just like hybrid cars compete with gas powered cars and electric cars.

I disagree completely.  The market may be somewhat related, but an electric bike does not compete directly against gasoline powered bikes--if they did, they would never sell a one of them.  People who are interested in electric bikes are looking at them because they're interested in alternative powered vehicles (just like hybrid cars--they sell because of their fuel efficiency, not because of their performance; outside of the major urban centers, they are not common, because their benefits are mostly geared towards congested urban traffic).  That's not to say that some current motorcycle riders aren't interested in alternative vehicles (I am), but read any thread about electric bikes on this forum, and you'll see how many people talk about how they'd never buy electric.

Once the technology gets to the point that electric bikes actually can compete in the regular motorcycle marketplace, then things will change--for one thing, I doubt you'll see many small builders like Brammo or Zero et al involved anymore (actually, it'll probably be technology developed by a small company like Brammo or Zero but produced by a major manufacturer like Honda or Yamaha that is leading the marketplace--these bigger companies will buy up the technology as soon as they think it'll be profitable to go into production).  

You're not going to find a perfect parallel to Buell or any other company.  Each company finds its own route to success or failure.  But they all have to start somewhere, and that usually means very small beginnings.

This is true.  But one of the things that can make or break a company is the marketplace they're going into.  The motorcycle marketplace over the past few decades has been dominated by a small number of large manufacturers, much as the auto market has been, and this makes it a hard market to break into.  A small company usually cannot offer production efficiencies leading to lower costs; they must offer something else to make up for their higher costs.  Or, they can go into a completely new market, such as the electric bikes (and personally, I think Czysz and the others going there are doing the right thing--whoever can develop technology to actually rival internal combustion engines is going to make it big!)

[steve.m]

; outside of the major urban centers, they are not common, because their benefits are mostly geared towards congested urban traffic).  

haha, on that note....

i had a rental camry hybrid in CO this past winter.  Took it from denver airport to breckenridge.  got about 20 mpg.  that little 4 banger was ready to explode by the time we made it through all the passes.  poor thing was never meant to carry 3 200+ dudes, their gear and a battery pack.

[Schneegz]

I disagree completely.  

And you're wrong.  Just because one product does not compete very well with a similar product, that doesn't mean they don't compete at all.  They are competing.  They simply appeal to their customers in a different way than ICE motorcycles.  Again, that doesn't mean they're not competing, only that they're doing it differently.

The only way you could accurately claim that electric motorcycles don't compete with ICE motorcycles is if there was no overlap between electric motorcycle customers and ICE motorcycle customers.  But there clearly is.  In fact, almost all electric motorcycle customers are past or current ICE motorcycle customers.  In other words, each of them bought an electric motorcycle instead of buying yet another ICE motorcycle.  Even if the electric bike is a second bike used only for commuting to save gas money, that still means they didn't buy a small ICE commuter bike they could have bought for the same purpose.  Sure the electric bike is probably more expensive, but that doesn't matter, because the customer thinks it's worth the cost.

That is the essence of competition, and customers' reasons for choosing an electric motorcycle over an ICE bike don't change that fact.

[Kootenanny]

And you're wrong.

Bull pucky.  The "overlap" you're speaking of is very small...sure, a guy might buy an electric bike rather than a small (say, 125cc) commuter bike, but I'll bet the average buyer of an electric bike isn't buying the electric bike "instead of" another bike, he's buying it simply because it's an electric vehicle--he'll commute on it rather than his FJR, just to save gas, but if he hadn't bought it, he'd just continue to ride the FJR (if a guys gets on a fitness kick and decides to buy a bicycle to commute on, is the bicycle competing in the overall motorcycle market?).  The reason most electric bike buyers are already motorcyclists is because a motorcyclist already has the interest, skills, and licensing to ride a 2-wheeled vehicle.  

I agree there is some overlap, so electric bikes may take a (very) few sales away from the ICE motorcycle market, but overall it is a different market (just as in my example above, bicycles may take a few sales away from the motorcycle market, but that doesn't mean they're considered valid competition in that market).  I would like to see electric bikes become MORE of a player in the ICE bike market, but until technology improves (and it will!), I don't see them becoming much of a threat.

[Schneegz]

Bull pucky.  The "overlap" you're speaking of is very small...sure, a guy might buy an electric bike rather than a small (say, 125cc) commuter bike, but I'll bet the average buyer of an electric bike isn't buying the electric bike "instead of" another bike, he's buying it simply because it's an electric vehicle--he'll commute on it rather than his FJR, just to save gas, but if he hadn't bought it, he'd just continue to ride the FJR (if a guys gets on a fitness kick and decides to buy a bicycle to commute on, is the bicycle competing in the overall motorcycle market?).  The reason most electric bike buyers are already motorcyclists is because a motorcyclist already has the interest, skills, and licensing to ride a 2-wheeled vehicle.  

In most places around the world bicycles are big competition for motorcycles.  As for electric bikes, the overlap is small because the sales of electric bikes are small for now.  If you want evidence of people buying electric bikes instead of ICE bikes, check out the Brammo Owner's Forum.

I agree there is some overlap, so electric bikes may take a (very) few sales away from the ICE motorcycle market, but overall it is a different market (just as in my example above, bicycles may take a few sales away from the motorcycle market, but that doesn't mean they're considered valid competition in that market).  I would like to see electric bikes become MORE of a player in the ICE bike market, but until technology improves (and it will!), I don't see them becoming much of a threat.

I never wrote the word threat.  I wrote competition.  Big Dog is in competition with Harley, even though they pose no threat whatsoever to Harley.  The fact that electric bikes take some sales away from ICE bikes (as you admit) proves that they are in competition, even though they are not yet a threat.

Every new technology competes with the technology it's intended to replace.

The first cars competed with horses and buggies, even though horses and buggies are far more different from cars than electric bikes are from ICE bikes.  Horses and buggies were far more capable, practical and reliable than car for years.  That doesn't matter.  They still competed.

Simultaneously, gasoline-powered cars competed against steam-powered cars, compressed-natural-gas-powered cars and electric cars.  

Computers competed against typewriters and stand-alone word processors.

iPods competed against portable CD players.

Electric lawn mowers (both plug-in and cordless) continue to compete with ICE lawn mowers.  

Likewise, electric bikes are competing with ICE bikes.  The fact that they are not yet a threat does not change the fact that they are competing.