Bike for the wife- new rider: GS500f, GSX650f or 650r?

[mtbjay]

Seeking Wisdom to get my newbee wife into riding:

Me: returning rider, Ducati Monster 696 (love it)
Her: age 31, new Mom, intending to take riding/safety course soon.  Somewhat timid, but great with cars (i.e. stick-shifting, loves her Infiniti G37x)

I rode a Honda Hornet 599 for her lately thinking it would be a great bike, but I found it way to buzzy, and high-strung for my tastes.  Smooth and easy on the power but maybe a little too easy; it just wasn't exciting.  Maybe another v-twin like an SV650 would be good, but she's warm on the looks.

That leads to the bikes listed in the title of the my post-

I've only seen them, not ridden them.  Some will come out and say "start with something small an move up!"  But I think she's disciplined enough to be careful and not over do it.  Besides, my thinking is the bigger cc bikes will be smoother.  Do the GS500f or GSX650f run smoother than the Hornet?  Anyone know?  What about the Ninja?

Any bad experiences out there going with mid-displacement bikes for newbees?  Any good experieces going for mid-displacement bikes?  I shooting for something she'll still want to own in a year or two, hoping it's not too big, heavy, or powerful for her.  Hard to know for sure - just looking for some feed back.  And their's always the FZ6....

Mainly, I just want to know if it's typical of in-line fours in the bike I mentioned to be pretty sedate until really wrung-out.  I'm not sure she'll like the bike if it's too vibey at cruising speeds (one reason I've already ruled out a Ninja 250r).  I would consider an older Monster like a 620, but they're hard to come by and too expensive for a 1st bike; same for a BMW 650GS.  I'd like to keep it under $4K in case it doesn't work out so well....

[phoenix]

well first, what bikes has she shown interest in?

I personally don't think 650 V-twins/parallel twins are too much for beginners. I have no experience with the GSX650.

600cc I-4's do not have a linear power delivery. That's not beginner friendly.

She needs to sit on some bikes to see how they would fit her first. Being comfortable is the first step in building confidence.

[jadziadax8]

Have her sit on them and see what SHE likes.  She would probably do well on any of them.  FWIW, I love my Ninja 650, and it was my first shifting motorcycle.  First bike was a Burgman 400.  I would also note that the GSX650F is apparently pretty heavy.

Maybe you should let her take a few spins on the Monster once she gets her license and see how she feels about the bigger displacement bike vs the 250s at the MSF.

[nater]

Of the bikes you listed, the GS500 would be the easiest one to learn on.  She can always move up to something faster later.

[mtbjay]

Getting to the point, Nater recommends the GS500f as does my instinct (cheaper entry level bike that's not a 250cc).  As apparently it's about 100lbs lighter than the GSX650f - that's a lot in my book, specially since me Monster weighs in at a scant 360lbs dry (and I like that, reminds me of my bicycles).  

Now I waffle a bit on recommending the 250cc sized bikes to her for her own safety & confidence.  The smaller bikes would be easier keep upright if one was caught off balance in a slow-speed maneuver.   They should (theoretically) be easier to slow and correct mid-corner at speed with their reduced inertia.

Then there's the argument for the bigger bikes - the extra power can keep you out of the danger zone in traffic with a quick twist of the throttle, no down-shifting required.  I imagine a bigger bike could be more stable over bumps (though suspension quality and settings would factor heavily), but certainly the bigger bikes will fair best in crosswinds or semi-truck wind blasts?

When I quizzed her on her intent, she's mostly hoping to use it for a short 5 mile commute on quiet country roads to work.  Then there's me... I want to take her out "training" in the awesome curvy roads we have around our wine country here in Northern Oregon's wine country.  Long trips are out, as we have a 2 year-old.  Hmmm, what to do?

If money were no object, I'd put her on a BMW 650GS w/ABS and heated grips - but she thinks they look like dirt bikes (and would rather have the sporty look).  We're going to have another motorcycle day and hit the shops for her to see/sit on the bikes.  Unfortunately, that's only so revealing.  {Which is why we have forums, right?!}

Maybe I should re-phrase this in the way of a vote!

Votes for the First Bike for My Wife

Needs: safe (highly maneuverable/yet stable) fun, reliable, comfortable, and not too buzzy (last criteria my input)

   *SUZUKI GS500F
   *SUZUKI GSX650F
   HONDA HORNET 599
   KAWASAKI NINJA 650R
   *KAWASAKI NINJA 250R
   Yamaha FZ6
   Yamaha FZ6R

   BMW F650GS (parallel twin)
   BMW 650GS (thumper, I believe)  Both more than I want to spend, but she is my wife!

*Denotes my leanings at the moment.

All comment appreciated!  Questions/clarifications will be answered.



    

[ANZAC]

My vote goes to the Kawasaki Ninja 650 - great bike for first time or experienced rider  

On the other hand - I have a Triumph Street Triple that my 18 year old daughter handles very well.  These are great bikes with tons of linear power and personality  

[bomber]

I'll echo Jad's post -- our opinions matter little, your's a bit more, and the only opinion that REALLY matter is your wife's. You can certainly help narrow the field, but it's her choice. I've seen a number of buddy riders loose interest at the hands of an overbearing "coach."

BTW< for what it's worth, replacement parts for older Monsters can be pricey -- I saw one toteled over the price of a gas tank. This kinda data is important to know about any bike, but more imortnat for new riders, I think.

[M]

Now I waffle a bit on recommending the 250cc sized bikes to her for her own safety & confidence.  The smaller bikes would be easier keep upright if one was caught off balance in a slow-speed maneuver.   They should (theoretically) be easier to slow and correct mid-corner at speed with their reduced inertia.

A 250cc, or even a 125cc cruiser, won't affect her safety or confidence. If anything, they'll increase both due to their size/weight and forgiving nature.

As for which one to choose, I'd find the one she's most comfortable on. that's a big deal for most new riders. I'd stick away from any 500lbs bikes for the first one.

[lightnin4]

I started on a Ninja 250 and loved it. I would still have it if I could justify the expense of 2 bikes.  It easily cruises at 55-65.  At 70+ it felt like the engine was pulling though.  I wouldn't want it for my only bike if I were commuting on the interstate daily, but on the backroads it is a blast!  Mine had aftermarket slip-ons and, compared to a stock 250 that a friend of mine owns, mine felt like it had way more power overall (esp. low end).  FWIW the 250 cruisers are no comparison.  If I had just gone to the BRC before buying my ninja or had started on a small cruiser, I probably wouldn't have continued riding.  I hated the GZ250 I rode in the BRC.  I have also heard good things about the 650R but haven't had the opportunity to ride one.

[inosmniacsdream]

My wife started out on a FZ6. In my opinion, as long as it is kept under about 8,000 rpm, it is fairly mild. She did get a ninja 250 for a short period of time, but crosswinds were difficult for her to deal with on it. She really likes the FZ6 and I don't see her getting rid of it any time soon.

As far as the GSX650F is concerned, I really like mine and would recommend one to anyone. The main consideration with it would be the weight. If she is not bothered by that, then it would be a great choice. The low end torque makes it a little more rider friendly than the FZ6 as well.

[Mastros2]

If she can wait until the spring, go to the Cycleworld show and have your wife sit on all the bikes in that particular group.  It's the best place to kick the tires.  All the big manufacturers bring bikes for this reason.  You can compare them side by side (almost).

Your initial group is nice.  I suggest the sv650 as well to add to it. What about your monster?

[mtbjay]

Ha Ha Ha!  Hand down the Monster?  Not yet!  I appreciate all the responses guys.  Keep 'em coming!  Any tips on good ways to transition a new rider?  I'm all about "training rides" in our very close, traffic free, twisty, open back roads.  So far, no one's commented on the buzzy nature of I'm worried about with anything but a v-twin.  Maybe I'm just attached to the lower-frequency rumble of my Italian V-Twin.    

[bomber]

Training rides is a good idea, but, at the risk of being repetitive, an easy hand during training is likely to have a much better outcome for everyone.

You are likely a much more accomplished rider than she, but a key question is, who are you to "train" her? Knowing how to do something, and being able to effectively and efficiently transfer that knowledge are very different things.

Lead by example, point out serious areas for potential improvement, and keep it fun.

[nater]

I've ridden both a GS500 and a Ninja 250.  The 250 is a bit unstable on the freeway due to crosswinds and semi trucks.  The GS500 is more stable.  Both of these bikes are about the same price used.  But then if she dosen't like the looks of either of them, then that won't work.  

Good luck with the search.

[McHack]

Of the bikes you listed, the GS500 would be the easiest one to learn on.  She can always move up to something faster later.

That's what I had my son get... he rode it hard...

[bluepoof]

I have a low chassis 2009 F650GS for sale that I could be talked down to a ridiculous price for.  

Other than that bit of useless commentary, I second the other comments of having her sit on them and choose the one that she likes best and that really "talks" to her. The list of bikes you're looking at is good and she should enjoy any of them.

[jadziadax8]

BTW, when I was shopping a couple of years ago, I made an Excel chart of all of the bikes I was interested in.  If you're interested, I can send it your way.  Apparently the board does not allow uploads of Excel files.

[Kootenanny]

...Some will come out and say "start with something small an move up!"  But I think she's disciplined enough to be careful and not over do it.  Besides, my thinking is the bigger cc bikes will be smoother.  

Yes, some of  us will come out and say "start with something small and move up"--and I'd be one of them.

Please don't get hung up on engine power.  And being "disciplined" has little to nothing to do with it.  The reason for starting out small has to do with weight, tractability, and confidence.  It is difficult to learn to ride if you're intimidated by the bike,  be that caused by weight, power delivery, a stiff clutch, or anything else.  On the other hand, it is much easier to become confident on a small, easy-to-ride bike (like a 250cc dual-sport, say).  

Of the bikes you listed, not knowing anything about your wife, I'd suggest you consider the GS500--although for her purposes (short country-road commute) the 250 Ninja would seem more than adequate (or even better, that 250cc dual-sport I mentioned).  As for using the extra power of a bigger bike to keep her "out of the danger zone in traffic," well, don't count on it.  Unless a rider has the discipline and skill to use that extra power to squirt themselves out of "the danger zone," it will be more of a liability than an asset--and remember, those little bikes sometimes still have a pretty good power/weight ratio (which is why a WR250X motard is an absolute scream to ride!).

As so many have noted, you seem to be projecting your own biases on your wife's choice of bike.  While this is to be expected, my advice is to back off and don't overdo it--give her information rather than straight advice.  Oh, and unless you have experience teaching (or even if you do), it's usually best to leave her instruction to the professionals.

[lightnin4]

I rode my Ninja 250 for a year then sold it for $100 less than I paid for it and bought a ZZR 600.  I had ridden a ZZR that belonged to a friend a few times that first year and am glad I didn't start on a bike like that.  The first couple of times I rode it I found that it had just enough power to get me in real trouble if I made a mistake.  After riding the 250 for most of a year I felt much more confident riding the ZZR and really liked it.  Don't cross the little Ninja off your list because you think its underpowered--it may have just enough to give your wife some confidence.  Plus, you can buy them cheap and not lose your butt on them when she does outgrow it.  

Like alot of the others have said here too--don't try to make her decision for her.  Help her gather info.  Go with her to look at and sit on bikes.  And let her make the decision.  She'll be much happier with the bike in the end and more apt to stick with riding.  

[Open Sore]

I wouldn't base my decision on any of the bikes she prefers before the MSF course.  What she feels most comfy on after the course, is how you should start the decision making process.  Don't buy something, thinking someone will grow into it.  If they are not comfy from the start, they don't enjoy the ride.  There is nothing wrong with buying something small 250-500, and riding it one year and moving up.

[mtbjay]

Active Forum, I like it!

Kootenanny's words to the wise are taken.  I shall try my best to refrain from imposing my values upon her choices.  Unfortunately, she can't ride these bikes to know what's what.  You know how it is... even if you like a bike from the first sitting or short ride, you don't really know what you have until you really take it out in a variety of conditions.  And even then, unless you have a few other bikes to compare it too... it's hard to differentiate one from the next.  This is where my experience kicks in, I guess.  (Or, my protective nature.)  I  just want her to be in control of the damn thing, not have any serious spills and enjoy herself.  The baby Ninja would be an easy choice...  Or the GS500.  Classic recommendations.  It seems like these (rather than older bikes) will be a nice balance of modern smooth running engines/balanced chassis and good break feed-back.  Now if I can only break her of the cool factor draw of the sportier bikes!  (She sent me a link to a GSXR 750 tonight!  Easy baby, easy.  Maybe in a couple of years.  Maybe NOT!)

I know the little 250 Neenja make the most sense.... but MAN, won't that be a buzzy little machine?  I better ride one.  (I am realizing I'm a sucker for a low-revving v-twin.)  Maybe the best compromise is a the GS500, dated looking as it is.  At least she'll be more comfortable cruising along at highway speeds on that - I would think.  I guess I need to test 'em both for her.  I cant' imagine many sellers will let her roll out on their bikes fresh out of motorcycle training.   it'd be cool if they did.  I guess they'd relate as most are selling their first bikes!   We'll see!

Jason

[Open Sore]

The GS500 doesn't have that much better performance than an EX250.  The EX500 is the better bike between the Kawi and Suzi.  A lot of riders feel that the bars are too far forward on the GS.  If a newbie sits on the Kaw and Suz one right after the other, almost all of them prefer the EX.  The Kawi ergos fit are larger portion of the riders.  

Either one can be purchased as a new leftover right now for a great price.

[UHOH]

Seeking Wisdom to get my newbee wife into riding:
...
Her: age 31, new Mom, intending to take riding/safety course soon.  Somewhat timid, but great with cars (i.e. stick-shifting, loves her Infiniti G37x)
...
(She sent me a link to a GSXR 750 tonight!  Easy baby, easy.  Maybe in a couple of years.  Maybe NOT!)

you're getting close to describing the target market for the Suzuki Gladius 650 v-twin.
My son had its predecessor, the SV650 naked, and that was one sweet bike.

[McHack]

Ya know, I never really understood why everyone was so anxious to go spend a big chunk of money,  to get a bike that they are likely going to wreck...  

Small bikes = cheap,  almost disposable IF you wreck them.
Big bikes = 'spensive,  a true loss IF you wreck them.

[nater]

The GS500 doesn't have that much better performance than an EX250.  

Yeah it does.  

[denisep]

I drove a brand new baby Ninja home a couple months ago for a friend (0 miles on the odo) from the dealership.  I was shocked at how comfortable and how easily it settled into doing 70 mph on the highway.  (in response to all who are talking about how buzzy they are...  )  

I still think most new riders should drive a beater (used Ninja) for a while...  drop it 2 or 3 times, and then decide what type of bike they "really" want...  

[inosmniacsdream]

I rode my Ninja 250 for a year then sold it for $100 less than I paid for it   

This brings up a good point. I turned my wife's Ninja 250 around for really close to what I paid for it as well. There always seems to be a market of new riders looking for a used one, so getting rid of one is relatively painless.

While I did say before that my wife didn't like her's because of how much it got blown around in crosswinds, other than that, she did like it. As long as the wind wasn't approaching 30mph gusts, it wasn't bad.

I would recommend the little Ninja and just plan on trading it off in about a year or so. Since most people who haven't ridden don't really know what they want anyway, this could also keep her from being stuck with a bike that isn't really what she wants down the road. Ride the Ninja for a while and trade for something she really wants.

    ...I should be a politician for how fast I can change my story.    

[Kootenanny]

Kootenanny's words to the wise are taken.  I shall try my best to refrain from imposing my values upon her choices.  Unfortunately, she can't ride these bikes to know what's what.  You know how it is... even if you like a bike from the first sitting or short ride, you don't really know what you have until you really take it out in a variety of conditions.

I learned my "wisdom" the hard way! Thankfully, my wife is a saint

And I agree completely, a beginner doesn't have the experience required to make a proper choice.  Sitting on bikes in dealerships is nice, but that is a poor way to decide...if we all chose bikes by how they feel in the showroom, we'd all own  big-ass heavy cruisers, with the wide, plush seats set nice and low, bars that come to you, and nice, comfy floorboards.  But of course, we choose bikes based on how they feel when they're in motion, going down the road--or we should, and this is the heart of the problem (and one reason I think that cruisers are so popular among new riders).  A complete newbie doesn't know how a bike is supposed to feel in motion; this experience takes a few years to develop, and is one reason I recommend doing "demo days" rides, and riding bikes of all different types (how do you know you won't like riding a sportbike, or a cruiser, unless you've actually ridden one?).

So, this is why I suggest you offer information--tell your wife what you think the pros and cons are of each bike, without (too obviously) trying to influence her decision.  One thing I've discovered is that we're not all looking for the same riding experience...

[Grainbelt]

Well, based on the list of bikes, I may as well chime in.

I took the MSF in May '05, just after buying a '93 GS500E. Rode that for a year and about 4,000 miles, then purchased an '06 Ninja 650R.  Just sold it this summer after putting 24,000 miles on it. In between I also bought and sold a Suzuki DR650.  I now ride a Yamaha FZ6.

The GS500 was the right bike for me to start with. Stone simple, reliable, smooth, easy to ride. Mine had a fork brace and progressive springs up front, and handled very well. I took it out on Minneapolis interstates about a month after I got it, that was my first chance to get on the throttle hard, having been doing sub-50pmh surface streets downtown before that. It has plenty of power, rated at thirty-something hp, and I had to slow down to merge on my first onramp.    With a six speed transmission, keeping it in the power isn't hard. I never should have sold that bike - with a topcase, it is the perfect commuter/spare bike for friends. I really don't like the newer faired versions as well, but whatever. The EX500 would be a great choice as well - it is liquid cooled and makes a bit more power. Believe both have a centerstand for easy chain maintenance.

The Ninja 650R is a nonstop grin inducing hooligan machine. The fuel injection is spot-on, and it will power wheelie in first gear without much effort due to all the torque. In fact, my first ever wheelie on a bike was by accident, on the Ninja. I had mine set up with GPS, sliders, full Givi cases, taller seat, etc. It is a nice, straightforward design, very low, and very narrow between the knees. Felt the same size as the GS500.  The fit and finish was a little rough, there was a rattle in the inner fairing that never went away, and there is no way to fit a centerstand due to the exhaust location, so touring is a pita.

The DR650 is the best city bike of the bunch, and depending on what kind of riding your wife is going to do, I wouldn't discount an XT250, KLX250, DR650, or G650S, depending on her height. Big singles are easy to ride, the suspension is cushy, and you have a great view of traffic. Not great street bikes, but again, a bike you could keep for dirt duty when it comes time to move on. All are available cheap used, and crash well.

I just bought the FZ6, and don't know much about it yet, other than it is smooooooth. Sewing machine smooth. Now that I have everything adjusted like I like, it is a docile little bike around town, under 6k. There just isn't any power, so you seemingly coast around everywhere. Comfortable, very well finished, centerstand, great aftermarket, I think I'm going to like it. I just miss the instant torque of the 650 twin. May have to get a motard for around town.  

I'd recommend the any 250 or 500, potentially a 650 thumper, and the FZ6. The 650 twins can get hairy in a hurry. On the other hand, Canada is getting a sleeved down 400cc Ninja this year, the US may get it soon. Would be a great choice - it is identical to the 650, just less motor.

Happy shopping! And don't forget - make it her choice, and she'll be much happier.  

[Chuck 500]

I can't say enough good about the GS500F.  Comments in this thread are spot on.  The bike is reliable, has plenty of power for commuting and light travel.  I find it handles wind OK.  Here in Houston we regularly have high winds.  It takes some getting used to.

I am a new rider (2 yrs) with about 11,000 miles on my GS500F.  I have dropped it (more than once ).  On most occasions damage was confined to scratches, no repair needed.  If needed, the fairings seem to relatively inexpensive.

Maintenance costs are low, and I have it all done by a dealer.

The biggest issue will be seat height.  Can your wife sit on the bike and hold it up?

Good luck with your search,

Chuck  

[cultureslayer]

I know the little 250 Neenja make the most sense.... but MAN, won't that be a buzzy little machine?  I better ride one.  (I am realizing I'm a sucker for a low-revving v-twin.)  Maybe the best compromise is a the GS500, dated looking as it is.  At least she'll be more comfortable cruising along at highway speeds on that - I would think.  I guess I need to test 'em both for her.  I cant' imagine many sellers will let her roll out on their bikes fresh out of motorcycle training.   it'd be cool if they did.  I guess they'd relate as most are selling their first bikes!   We'll see!

I rode a ninja 250 over 800 miles in one day.  I preferred it to the 636, which is why I sold the 636 and kept the 250.  Perfect city or highway bike.  about $200 turns it into a completely different machine (new fork oil and springs, ebc HH front pads, and a 15T front sprocket)  If you want a 500, go with the ninja.

[mtbjay]

Thanks for all the reply everyone!  I thought I'd let you know, I finally got my wife to straddle a few bikes at a dealership today... We were lucky enough to have a woman helping as she really helped identify (and reinforce) the importance of initial comfort with the size and weight of a woman's first motorcycle.  While Carla loves the looks of all the fast sport bikes, when she swung a leg over them and tried balancing them a little from side-to-side, she ended up liking a little Honda Nighthawk (CB250) best.  The dealer is asking w-a-y too much for their "new" '08 w/600 miles, so we looked on Craig's List and found a Honda CMX Rebel 250 for $2,500.  It's sits 2" lower than the Nighthawk (and my wife is 5'9"), but is a nice color and has at least one disc brake and the same smooth parallel-twin engine.   We fired up the little Honda at the dealer, it sounded good; smooth and responsive on the throttle.  (It reminds me of the Honda Twinstar that was my first street motorcycle when I was 17.)

For anyone reading this who is also hoping to someday get their wife/girlfriend into motorcycling, I leave this final thought.  I'll admit, I think I underestimated my wife's nervousness and inexperience.  I was recapping how I first got into motorcycles and all the different two-wheeled experiences  I have had (motorized AND self-powered).  It amounted to COUNTLESS hours of time perfecting my skills that she is just beginning to develop (much later in life.)  So... the little flat-feet-on-the-ground, simple, light-weight, back-nearly-straight Honda Rebel is just fine for starters.  I figure if she's apt to stick to it, a little cruiser like that won't discourage her in any way.  Then, if she wants more speed and responsiveness, we'll start looking at maybe the 350-500cc range.  This makes perfect sense to me; start small/cheap before going in deep with a 600cc+ bike.  You gotta crawl before you can walk before you can run.  

Jason

[McHack]

......
For anyone reading this who is also hoping to someday get their wife/girlfriend into motorcycling, I leave this final thought.  I'll admit, I think I underestimated my wife's nervousness and inexperience. ......

I did the exact same thing...   My GF is a tiny (4'11"),  sassy country girl,  & grew up riding little dirt bikes, & atv's...  She's majorly into fitness, & has done figure competitions.   We had done quite a bit of riding,  & really always enjoyed it, except when we went farther than an SV650S can be ridden comfortably 2-up.    I just knew she'd love riding a street bike,  & started trying to talk her into getting her endorsement.

With that resume,  I just assumed she'd do really well, & it was real eye-opener,  when I realized how nervous she was.  
She went out & got a used Suzi GZ250,  before she took the MSF course.    One week prior she was really freaking out,  & wanted to get a little bit of practice riding it...  So, we rode over to the local campus, & putted around the parking lot...  her following me,,   me trying to re-enforce things I remembered form the class.    I thought she did great!

Then,  she refused to let me come watch her take the MSF course.   Last weekend was the first time that she's actually let me see her ride!    Seeing her just jump on, & go tearing thru intersections,  no longer the timid girl...   well,  I was really proud of her, & a little hurt that she couldn't let me be part of it.  

[Kootenanny]

I'll admit, I think I underestimated my wife's nervousness and inexperience.  I was recapping how I first got into motorcycles and all the different two-wheeled experiences  I have had (motorized AND self-powered).  It amounted to COUNTLESS hours of time perfecting my skills that she is just beginning to develop (much later in life.)...You gotta crawl before you can walk before you can run.  

This is exactly what I was trying to get at earlier...as an experienced rider, you tend to forget how intimidating motorcycles can be to a newcomer.  You have skills you forget ever learning.

Small and light is the ticket!

And as McHack found out, for some reason wives (and probably husbands) seem to learn better from others (preferably professionals) than from their spouses.  I have firsthand experience with this...when I met my wife, I was working as a full-time ski instructor...she was skiing, but at a low-intermediate level...for whatever reason, she remains the one person I simply cannot teach to ski better...

[McHack]

And as McHack found out, for some reason wives (and probably husbands) seem to learn better from others (preferably professionals) than from their spouses.  I have firsthand experience with this...when I met my wife, I was working as a full-time ski instructor...she was skiing, but at a low-intermediate level...for whatever reason, she remains the one person I simply cannot teach to ski better...

Its funny,  I grew up on skis & I got her into skiing too.   I actually recommended she take lessons for this very reason you mention.   she's just not that comfortable skiing,  & since we live in Ohio...  its like,  yea,  so what.   If we dont ski,  were not missing anything here.  LOL