HD gives away MV

[Moto Morphin Power Ranger]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/06/harley-davidson-announces-sale-of-mv-agusta-to-claudio-castiglio/

I just found this.
 I have no idea what HD is doing. 1st they wont sell Buell then they give MV back.  There goes all my hope of getting a HD that will carve up a road.

[chornbe]

MVs would never have been HDs anyway. That was never the intention, plan or consideration.

HDs will never be the bike you want. It's just not the image nor the plan.

[Moto Morphin Power Ranger]

I was hopping that using what MV had to offer they would expand there product line. i know that they would not just slap a different badge on them. but using the R&D  come out with a HD nobody saw coming and blow my socks off.
 
I am a Huge fan of image that's why i got the Guzzi

[UFO]

 I have no idea what HD is doing. 1st they wont sell Buell then they give MV back.  There goes all my hope of getting a HD that will carve up a road.

Yeah, the executives at HD are certainly riding the short bus.  They never should have bought MV in the first place.  Made about as much sense as trying to convince county to buy an FJR.  And letting Buell die was just...well...utter fail.

[Geoff]

Yeah, the executives at HD are certainly riding the short bus.  They never should have bought MV in the first place.  Made about as much sense as trying to convince county to buy an FJR.  And letting Buell die was just...well...utter fail.

I agree. Harley never should have bought MV in the first place. Also, they mismanaged the Buell brand. Dealers treated it like a illegitimate step child. Harley's business plan is a mess.  They're very fortunate to have a large, loyal customer base.

[JGreb]

I agree. Harley never should have bought MV in the first place. Also, they mismanaged the Buell brand. Dealers treated it like a illegitimate step child. Harley's business plan is a mess.  They're very fortunate to have a large, loyal customer base.

I can't go a mile without seeing Harley it seems. I'm not sure how long they can play out the American Icon bandwagon but it is sure working these days.  

[chornbe]

I can't go a mile without seeing Harley it seems. I'm not sure how long they can play out the American Icon bandwagon but it is sure working these days for the last 5 decades or so.  

[JGreb]

but now you actually see more people riding them than trailering them or holding down the bar parking lot

[Gar]

Anymore, when I see a sportbike, the rider does not have a helmet on, is usually wearing shorts or at least is in a tank-top type shirt. And they are rarely outside of town. Out on the road it's mostly Harleys, other cruisers and a smattering of BMW's passing through.

[bomber]

Wow -- an entire Euro for the factory, brand, spares, parts, lock stock and barrel?

The Iron Tower's denizens really screwed the pooch with this one -- while their products continue to sell better than most of the competition, this news makes me wonder how long this pony can keep repeating it's trick.

[Rincewind]

Wow -- an entire Euro for the factory, brand, spares, parts, lock stock and barrel?

Another article said it was 3 Euros.  I mean - really!  

Not only that - it is said that Harley paid Castiglio 20-million Euros as part of the "sale"

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,55798.0.html

[chornbe]

Another article said it was 3 Euros.  I mean - really!  

Not only that - it is said that Harley paid Castiglio 20-million Euros as part of the "sale"

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,55798.0.html

As I understand it, that was cash monies handed over as operating capital that was assumed by HD at the initial deal. They basically handed their cash and checkbook back to them. Separate and apart from the sale of the goods and IP.

As I understand it.

[chornbe]

Wow -- an entire Euro for the factory, brand, spares, parts, lock stock and barrel?

The Iron Tower's denizens really screwed the pooch with this one -- while their products continue to sell better than most of the competition, this news makes me wonder how long this pony can keep repeating it's trick.

Gosh, no one's been saying that for decades...

[ANZAC]

I agree with the Skipper in they should not have bought MV and kept Buell.  What are these guys thinking??

I have seen this sort of thinkng run companies into the gound  

Dear HD,

Open your eyes and take a look around.  Bring back Buell and expand you line of bikes to include other offerings similar to Triumph for example.  Don't be afraid to branch out and design something else without a V-twin engine  

[Geoff]

I agree with the Skipper in they should not have bought MV and kept Buell.  What are these guys thinking??

I have seen this sort of thinkng run companies into the gound  

Dear HD,

Open your eyes and take a look around.  Bring back Buell and expand you line of bikes to include other offerings similar to Triumph for example.  Don't be afraid to branch out and design something else without a V-twin engine  

...and instruct your dealers not to shove Buells into a dark corner of their showroom. Train dealers to effectively manage, promote and sell the brand. Also, find an ad agency that knows how to market to young buyers. The "lifestyle" branding campaign that works for cruisers is useless for the Buell brand.

[bomber]

Gosh, no one's been saying that for decades...

True enough, Chris -- including me (as I don't get their marketing at all).

On the other hand, they've not thrown good money after bad at a rate approaching what they've done lately, ever. It is no long a difference of degree, I think, but a difference of kind.

Companies, like people, can only afford so many bad guesses in a given period of time. Though I'd LOVE to see my grandchildren have the opportunity to by a brand new 2031 Harley Davidson, if someone other than a recent MBA grad doesn't take over the company, and soon, I fear my wish will be unfulfilled. I don't have more visibility into their finances than anyone else, but I seriously doubt if they have one more mistake's worth of cushion left.

Good job on the HDI apologist thing, though ;-}

[chornbe]

Apologist...? Try realist.

I look at it this way... 30 years ago 50 year old guys were riding Harleys.

Today, 50 year old guys are riding Harleys.

In 20 years, lots of previously 30 year old guys may be riding Harleys.

If none of you guys own, care to own, or ever plan on owning Harleys, why do you all put so much energy into discussing them, and coming up with all the brilliant ideas that No One Has Ever Thought Of - especially some of the folks that are completely clueless about Harley's place in the market...?

Their "aging buyers" have been aging for the last 100 years and Harley's still around.

It's not apologist; it's admiration for a company that knows their audience.

If, for instance, Honda had their finger on the pulse of the US market do you REALLY think they'd have bothered with the Deauville, the DN-01 and a $20,000 VFR?

No.

And let's be clear... I sold both my Harleys and have no plans to get any others. I don't have a dog in this fight; I'm just really happy to let Harley be Harley, and let Ducati be Ducati and let Triumph be Triumph. Every bike company has a niche; has that one special thing that's just theirs. Well, most of them. These days, it's almost impossible to tell the Big-4 japanese companies' offerings apart.  

For all the "Harley won't be around in 10 or 20 years" stories of doom, history speaks otherwise. Current sales speak otherwise.

It's right there to see.

By the way... I never thought HD buying MV was the right move, either. Was I hopeful it would cause both brands to make inroads into their respective down markets? Of course... But we're discussing the imminent demise of Harley here. Riiiiight.

They ain't going anywhere. Everyone can just calm down.

PS... "recent mba grad". Seriously, do you honestly believe the average joe could run a company that size? Do you think one of the "faithful" would make good BUSINESS decisions? I seriously doubt anyone on this forum could keep Harley afloat, and I'm sure LOTS of guys here would completely bankrupt Harley trying to hammer them into being a sport bike company when, clearly, the market won't allow it.

Show of hands... how many people here would run right out, on DAY ONE ('cause THAT is what it would take to recoup expenses) and buy a Harley-branded sport bike, rather than a bleeding-edge RR/SS bike from one of the big-four, or better, rather than a Ducati or Arpilia...? I'm not talking a rekindling of Buell, here. I'm talking a whole new, ground up, completely untested and untried line of business for Harley. I'm also not talking about "maybe a left over in three years" - 'cause that happens now to Honda and you can STILL buy new Buells. I'm talking right now, brand new at MSRP.

***the sound of crickets***

No one. Certainly not enough to make it even remotely worth it for Harley to abandon their current market and shift their full attention to making sport bikes (the idea of which is ludicrous to the point of flat out stupidity, anyway).

Just let Harley be Harley and move along.

[falconati]

Yeah, I mean..I have fun and like to make the occasional HD joke, but people love their motorcycles and the people who ride them are no worse an image for motorcycling than people who drive sport bikes like assholes.

[Rincewind]

As I understand it, that was cash monies handed over as operating capital that was assumed by HD at the initial deal. They basically handed their cash and checkbook back to them. Separate and apart from the sale of the goods and IP.

As I understand it.

I haven't read that anywhere else.  

From the outside, it all looks like an excuse for a huge tax loss write-off.

[chornbe]

I honestly couldn't tell you for sure.

I know this... I'd just LOVE to pocket the losses on this deal. And the money wasted in executing the deal.

[bomber]

Apologist...? Try realist.

I look at it this way... 30 years ago 50 year old guys were riding Harleys.

Today, 50 year old guys are riding Harleys.

In 20 years, lots of previously 30 year old guys may be riding Harleys.

If none of you guys own, care to own, or ever plan on owning Harleys, why do you all put so much energy into discussing them, and coming up with all the brilliant ideas that No One Has Ever Thought Of - especially some of the folks that are completely clueless about Harley's place in the market...?

Their "aging buyers" have been aging for the last 100 years and Harley's still around.

It's not apologist; it's admiration for a company that knows their audience.

If, for instance, Honda had their finger on the pulse of the US market do you REALLY think they'd have bothered with the Deauville, the DN-01 and a $20,000 VFR?

No.

And let's be clear... I sold both my Harleys and have no plans to get any others. I don't have a dog in this fight; I'm just really happy to let Harley be Harley, and let Ducati be Ducati and let Triumph be Triumph. Every bike company has a niche; has that one special thing that's just theirs. Well, most of them. These days, it's almost impossible to tell the Big-4 japanese companies' offerings apart.  

For all the "Harley won't be around in 10 or 20 years" stories of doom, history speaks otherwise. Current sales speak otherwise.

It's right there to see.

By the way... I never thought HD buying MV was the right move, either. Was I hopeful it would cause both brands to make inroads into their respective down markets? Of course... But we're discussing the imminent demise of Harley here. Riiiiight.

They ain't going anywhere. Everyone can just calm down.

PS... "recent mba grad". Seriously, do you honestly believe the average joe could run a company that size? Do you think one of the "faithful" would make good BUSINESS decisions? I seriously doubt anyone on this forum could keep Harley afloat, and I'm sure LOTS of guys here would completely bankrupt Harley trying to hammer them into being a sport bike company when, clearly, the market won't allow it.

Show of hands... how many people here would run right out, on DAY ONE ('cause THAT is what it would take to recoup expenses) and buy a Harley-branded sport bike, rather than a bleeding-edge RR/SS bike from one of the big-four, or better, rather than a Ducati or Arpilia...? I'm not talking a rekindling of Buell, here. I'm talking a whole new, ground up, completely untested and untried line of business for Harley. I'm also not talking about "maybe a left over in three years" - 'cause that happens now to Honda and you can STILL buy new Buells. I'm talking right now, brand new at MSRP.

***the sound of crickets***

No one. Certainly not enough to make it even remotely worth it for Harley to abandon their current market and shift their full attention to making sport bikes (the idea of which is ludicrous to the point of flat out stupidity, anyway).

Just let Harley be Harley and move along.

Apologist, realist -- OK, semantics arguments are boring.

I have owned Harleys, in the past.

I would jump at a chance to purchase a new motorcycle made by HD (in the US, please, so long as we're making stipulations), but I'm past the pure sport-bike phase of my life (a Uly-like bike without the compromises would be my cuppa, thank you very much) . . . . I would buy it new at MSRP, if said MSRP didn't include the extra bucks that HDI generally charges for their bikes . .. .

You're right, though, in that there aren't many folks who would buy anything but a cruiser from HDI, likely not enough to make the ROI short enough to satisfy stock holders.

This is all pretty much beside my point, though (which I likely didn't make clear enough).

HDI has made some purely business, fiscal decisions of late that, on the face of them, seem very damaging (and I agree that it would be nice, at a purely emotional level, if the leadership at HDI rode, but the fact is that it's a business, just like making bars of soap -- good business people are needed, not riders. Perhaps my convoluted sentence structure sent the wrong message).

If they really did buy MV, and hand it back for 1 euro, that's a large loss  Coupled with several other actions they've taken recently, from a purely business standpoint, they are likely short of cash. All the signs point to that.

They are also on their own, unlike much of their competition (specifically, the Big 4, all of which have other business units).

Do I think they are going down the tubes? I hope not, but don't have the information to be able to predict accurately (nor does anyone else outside of the Iron Tower). I fear that they've done some serious damage to themselves (fiscally) of late, and there are a number of examples of seemingly healthy companies disappearing. Once you take a company public, you no longer own it, or even run it, except at the pleasure of the stockholders.

For a decent parallel, see Jaguar.

As for everyone calming down, I see nothing like uncalm anywhere in these threads  . . . well, not much, anyway. It's an interesting conversation to have, from the point of view of a rider, as a citizen of the country where HDI hangs it's hat, and as a business person.

You may be bored with the conversation, and that's fine. Others, clearly, are not.

[JGreb]

Apologist...? Try realist.

I look at it this way... 30 years ago 50 year old guys were riding Harleys.

Today, 50 year old guys are riding Harleys.

In 20 years, lots of previously 30 year old guys may be riding Harleys.

If none of you guys own, care to own, or ever plan on owning Harleys, why do you all put so much energy into discussing them, and coming up with all the brilliant ideas that No One Has Ever Thought Of - especially some of the folks that are completely clueless about Harley's place in the market...?

Their "aging buyers" have been aging for the last 100 years and Harley's still around.

It's not apologist; it's admiration for a company that knows their audience.

If, for instance, Honda had their finger on the pulse of the US market do you REALLY think they'd have bothered with the Deauville, the DN-01 and a $20,000 VFR?

No.

And let's be clear... I sold both my Harleys and have no plans to get any others. I don't have a dog in this fight; I'm just really happy to let Harley be Harley, and let Ducati be Ducati and let Triumph be Triumph. Every bike company has a niche; has that one special thing that's just theirs. Well, most of them. These days, it's almost impossible to tell the Big-4 japanese companies' offerings apart.  

For all the "Harley won't be around in 10 or 20 years" stories of doom, history speaks otherwise. Current sales speak otherwise.

It's right there to see.

By the way... I never thought HD buying MV was the right move, either. Was I hopeful it would cause both brands to make inroads into their respective down markets? Of course... But we're discussing the imminent demise of Harley here. Riiiiight.

They ain't going anywhere. Everyone can just calm down.

PS... "recent mba grad". Seriously, do you honestly believe the average joe could run a company that size? Do you think one of the "faithful" would make good BUSINESS decisions? I seriously doubt anyone on this forum could keep Harley afloat, and I'm sure LOTS of guys here would completely bankrupt Harley trying to hammer them into being a sport bike company when, clearly, the market won't allow it.

Show of hands... how many people here would run right out, on DAY ONE ('cause THAT is what it would take to recoup expenses) and buy a Harley-branded sport bike, rather than a bleeding-edge RR/SS bike from one of the big-four, or better, rather than a Ducati or Arpilia...? I'm not talking a rekindling of Buell, here. I'm talking a whole new, ground up, completely untested and untried line of business for Harley. I'm also not talking about "maybe a left over in three years" - 'cause that happens now to Honda and you can STILL buy new Buells. I'm talking right now, brand new at MSRP.

***the sound of crickets***

No one. Certainly not enough to make it even remotely worth it for Harley to abandon their current market and shift their full attention to making sport bikes (the idea of which is ludicrous to the point of flat out stupidity, anyway).

Just let Harley be Harley and move along.

If Harley keeps putting out bikes like this Road Glide Ultra I may want another H-D  someday.





 I could already see me riding one of these again. It is a love/hate relationship for me with Harley. Do you think in 20 years people will still be embracing the Harley image? no helmets or worse Nazi replica helmet, leather vests and fringe? I think that tradition will carry on with them unfortunately and that is the part of H-D I could do without.

[stromgal]

Spoke with a guy last night at my gig that works in the H-D financial dept. He said other states were throwing 'stupid money' offers at Harley in their attempt to get them to move manufacturing there. Said no matter what else happens, Corporate will stay at the Juneau location. FWIW.

[chornbe]

Spoke with a guy last night at my gig that works in the H-D financial dept. He said other states were throwing 'stupid money' offers at Harley in their attempt to get them to move manufacturing there. Said no matter what else happens, Corporate will stay at the Juneau location. FWIW.

See? There you go stepping all over lots and lots of baseless speculation and hopeful doom and gloom with things like facts and "sources close to the situation".

There's no place for that here!  

[bomber]

Spoke with a guy last night at my gig that works in the H-D financial dept. He said other states were throwing 'stupid money' offers at Harley in their attempt to get them to move manufacturing there. Said no matter what else happens, Corporate will stay at the Juneau location. FWIW.

Good news, indeed!

[Dan K]

I don't know the details of the sale back to the Castigliones but HD paid off a bunch of debt when they bought the company and I am willing to bet that the Castigliones are assuming all of that debt and possibly more in taking the company back making the overall profit/loss column not so extremely onesided as it seems...

I should probably read the article first.

- Dan

[Prubert]

And let's be clear... I sold both my Harleys and have no plans to get any others.

RRReeeealllllyyyy???

Let's talk in 6/11!!  

[chornbe]

You hush.

For now.  

[Rincewind]

RRReeeealllllyyyy???

Let's talk in 6/11!!  

You hush.

For now.  

What?  You can't go teasing like that without any hints.

 

[chornbe]

Hmm? What?

[Dan K]

The only safe prediction for Chris is that he will have another bike soon.  And you can't out Davidsons.  Or any other motorcycle, for that matter.

-Dan

[Playinthestreet]

The only safe prediction for Chris is that he will have another bike soon.  And you can't out Davidsons.  Or any other motorcycle, for that matter.

-Dan

Winner!

[napper]

Anymore, when I see a sportbike, the rider does not have a helmet on, is usually wearing shorts or at least is in a tank-top type shirt. And they are rarely outside of town. Out on the road it's mostly Harleys, other cruisers and a smattering of BMW's passing through.

An "urban sportbiker" sighting.

[Gar]

No-one here is really "Urban".  City population of about 6500. City is just over 15 sq miles.

[Hickey]

Harley isn't going to fade away.  Yes the demographics of Harley owners suggest few young riders, but enough riders will buy into Harley as they age that the company's security seems likely to remain strong.  That has been the trend for decades and will likely remain the trend in coming decades.  

That said, I do wish Harley would expand their appeal to attract buyers rather than wait on buyers to morph into potential buyers.  No that doesn't mean I think Harley should produce a line of  race ready sport bikes.  They don't need to totally reinvent the company.  Just expand a bit on some things they already do.

Harley builds good looking, if retro styled, naked bikes.  It isn't that far of a leap to inject some more sport into the lineage.  Take the XR1200X for example.  That is a step in a direction that has appeal to me.  I loved my Ducati Monster, which was a sporty bike without really being a sport bike.  Harley can do something like that from the XR1200X line.  Such a machine would need to be lighter and with less emphasis on achieving a specific retro style -- but that isn't an unrealistic bike for Harley to build.  Nor would it be utterly out of place in their dealerships.

What I ride these days is more upright and will probably need to remain so.  Would I like to see a Harley adventure bike?  Sure.  But that is a huge leap away from their current lineup.  I just don't see how to slot something like that into any existing niche among the various families of Harleys.  But if they did build one with a street emphasis, cool styling, proper weight, great handling, that compared favorably with existing adventure bikes at a reasonable price... I would be sorely tempted to have one.  I just don't think that will ever happen.

[bomber]

Bill and Chris are likely right in saying that HDI should stick to it's core strength, which is retro-looking cruisers.

This line of thought, of course, flies in the face of the thinking that took place in the Iron Tower in the 50s, ,when they had a number of lil teeny bikes, the 60s, when they bought some obscure Italian factory, the 70s when they made golf carts, the 80s, when they dipped their toes into the Trike market, the 90s, when they purchase the majority of a small American Sport Bike manufacturer, and the 00s (aughts?), when the bought the obscure Italian factory.

;-}

[chornbe]

And through all the comings and goings, what paid for and what fed the masses were...

... the core market.

[bomber]

True enough -- I'm simply recounting a bit of history -- perhaps HDI should hire you for Strategic Planning?

[chornbe]

You think I want you guys ragging on me any more than it already happens? HELL NO!