1200 Sport Starting Issues???

[Biking Sailor]

Here's one for ya...  My 1200 Sport is getting a little cheeky in the starting department.  I turn on the key switch, watch the "needle dance" as I think it was called here, and hit the start button.  Nothing   , hit the again and nothing   .  Again and it fires to life  .  This has happened a couple of time now only when the bike has been setting for a long period of time and seems to be getting a little worse each day (for the last week).  

This morning on my commute to work, she took longer than ever to respond and I am wondering if it has any thing to do with the "enter users code message" on the display at start up.  I have to admit I have ignored that since I got the bike.  Was I supposed to do something to set it???

What say all you experts?  Thanks in advance for info  .  

Darren

[rdbandkab]

I'm pretty sure the code has nothing to do with it...
You may want to check battery connections and your ground first.  
Get the volt meter out and check the charge rate of your battery...  And maybe get the battery checked while your at it.  Maybe you have a battery that isn't holding a charge as good as it should be.

rdbandkab

[chornbe]

I've actually got an occasional problem with my positive battery cable; the crimp at the connector is a bit shoddy. Next time I'm in there, I'm going to pull it and re-crimp it and/or solder it.

Check things like that.

[Biking Sailor]

Battery?  Hadn't really thought of that much, because when it responds it seems to turn the motor over strong, but when it doesn't respond, it's like the button wasn't even pushed.

I'll check the batttery with my load tester and post results.

Thanks!

[chornbe]

Battery?  Hadn't really thought of that much, because when it responds it seems to turn the motor over strong, but when it doesn't respond, it's like the button wasn't even pushed.

I'll check the batttery with my load tester and post results.

Thanks!

It's not the battery. It'll be the connectors on the cables (loose, or like mine, poorly crimped), or the solenoid.

[Biking Sailor]

Checked battery, moved down to crimp outer sleeves, all tested OK.  Started the bike (of course this time it fired right off at first touch  ) and interesting to note, the digital volt meter on the display was right on my load tester, to within .1 volts.    Nice to know that is accurate!

Crimps "looked" good, but who knows, I'll check better later, along with a look at solenoid connections.

I love the bike, but your calling it "Guzzi Bitch" sure fits.  

[Rabidsnipe]

Consider it part of the "sorting" process that everyone talks about.  I told you all I could so you would go in eyes wide open.

[chornbe]

It remains one of THE most enjoyable machines I've owned yet. Even once a month when I turn the key and clicks dead. Wiggle the wire and it's all good. I just need to take 10 minutes to fix it.

[Biking Sailor]

No regrets on buying the Guzzi!     I love the bike, but I think I will really really love the warranty!  

[Biking Sailor]

This was copied from the Breva 1100 PowerPoint document on the CD that had the service manual.  I received it with the bike.  Seems like I might not be ruling out the "code" statement too quickly!  

JustCallMeChris, This might be of intrest to you on your spare key thread.


The immobilizer system is integrated in the electronic dashboard.

At key-to-ON the dashboard will read the key code. If the code corresponds to the one memorized, the dashboard will activate the initial check and will allow the ECU for engine starting, via the CAN Bus line.

If the key code is not recognized, the dashboard will not permit for engine starting and on the display will appear the request to insert the code to allow for “manually” engine starting.
To the customer will be delivered two keys with transponder, already memorized from the factory and at every key-to-ON the dashboard will ask to insert the personal 5 digit code, if not yet done:

          you must remember to insert the user code

To insert the personal code one must select the function CODE MODIFICATION

[chornbe]

Remember the good old days when bikes were simpler than cars?  

[Biking Sailor]

I was hoping you could explain it to me!  I'm not so good at Italian translated to Spanish, translated to French, translated to, to, whatever several times, to English (or is that American)  

God I get so confused everytime I even think about the Guzzi manual.  

[Biking Sailor]

OOPs, sorry JustCallMeChris, I typed the word "manual" in a Guzzi thread.    Now you'll have to reset your TPS!  

[chornbe]

OOPs, sorry JustCallMeChris, I typed the word "manual" in a Guzzi thread.    Now you'll have to reset your TPS!  

Right? BINGO!

THAT is one thing that truly does irk me about this bike.

OH CRAP I SNEEZED! (reset the TPS)
OH CRAP I REVVED THE ENGINE! (reset the TPS)

[Blunder]

I've not had any issues but it sounds like the proverbial "Italian bike" experience. The fact that the store that sold me mine provided a cable for a battery tender is somewhat telling.

 

[MisterSmooth]

No starting issues here, either.  

The only issue I've had is water invading the switch on the left handlebar during a biblical deluge.  This causes the multifunction trip computer to reset itself at random intervals.   Just annoying, no functional issues were caused at all.

One of these days I've promised myself that I'm going to pull off the rubber boot and fill the space around the switch elements with a couple of drops of silicone.  This is supposed to cure the problem.  So far, though, I've been too lazy to fix it.  

But it starts every time.    I'd recommend checking battery and starter connections...

[atadaskew]

when it doesn't respond, it's like the button wasn't even pushed.

Have you thought about cleaning the starter button's contact point?  Use some electrical cleaner (Radio Shack).

[Biking Sailor]

Have you thought about cleaning the starter button's contact point?  Use some electrical cleaner (Radio Shack).

Good idea.    I am wondering if some contact parts may have gotten a little out of kilter when I swapped the handle bars out, and then back to the originals, then back to the new ones again (wanted to make sure I liked the upright position more).

[Blunder]

No starting issues here, either.  

The only issue I've had is water invading the switch on the left handlebar during a biblical deluge...

One of these days I've promised myself that I'm going to pull off the rubber boot and fill the space around the switch elements with a couple of drops of silicone.  This is supposed to cure the problem.  So far, though, I've been too lazy to fix it.  

But it starts every time.    I'd recommend checking battery and starter connections...

You're too busy traipsing around Italy and other exotic locations.  

I've got the same problems with the trip meter. As I was coming home from the GP that entire side of the clocks went grey. Everything was fine after I pit 5.8 gallons of gas into it in Rio Dell. I hear the silicone deal with the switch gear is the solution.

The weather looks autumnal this weekend. The Samoa Cookhouse, via the hell that is HWY 36, is very enticing.

[MisterSmooth]

You're too busy traipsing around Italy and other exotic locations.  

I've got the same problems with the trip meter. As I was coming home from the GP that entire side of the clocks went grey. Everything was fine after I pit 5.8 gallons of gas into it in Rio Dell. I hear the silicone deal with the switch gear is the solution.

The weather looks autumnal this weekend. The Samoa Cookhouse, via the hell that is HWY 36, is very enticing.

Man, that sounds nice.   Sorry you have to endure 36 yet again.    Make sure you take some pictures, OK?  You don't have to post them, of course.  

[Blunder]

Man, that sounds nice.   Sorry you have to endure 36 yet again.    Make sure you take some pictures, OK?  You don't have to post them, of course.  

You'll not see 'em here.  

[blakebird]

At key-to-ON the dashboard will read the key code. If the code corresponds to the one memorized, the dashboard will activate the initial check and will allow the ECU for engine starting, via the CAN Bus line.

If the key code is not recognized, the dashboard will not permit for engine starting and on the display will appear the request to insert the code to allow for “manually” engine starting.
To the customer will be delivered two keys with transponder, already memorized from the factory and at every key-to-ON the dashboard will ask to insert the personal 5 digit code, if not yet done:

          you must remember to insert the user code

To insert the personal code one must select the function CODE MODIFICATION

and key in digits on which numeric keypad?

Mine still asks for a user code briefly at startup. I've not had any issues with starting with either key.

[chornbe]

If I thought it a worthy experiment, I'd rip all the electronics out of the thing. That's a diminishing possibility with the ECU & FI systems.

I don't want a key-based immobilizer.
And it irks me that it bugs me for the user code.
It also irks me that I have to press that stupid button 9-b'zillion times if I want to finally get around to entering the user code... which nets me nothing anyway.

Stupid system.
Awesome bike regardless.

[Biking Sailor]

and key in digits on which numeric keypad?

Mine still asks for a user code briefly at startup. I've not had any issues with starting with either key.

You enter the numbers the same as entering the service code to check for faults in diagnostics.  When you get to the proper screen, you push the same button on the left switch gear pushing it a specific number of times, then hold it in to go to next number, repeat process.  Means you select a five digit number with ones and twos.  

When I push the start button, I can release it and the starter continues to run until the engine starts.  Don't remember it doing that early on.  Does everyone work that way, or just my "Guzzi Bitch"?  

AH the fun of my Guzzi!

[chornbe]

You enter the numbers the same as entering the service code to check for faults in diagnostics.  When you get to the proper screen, you push the same button on the left switch gear pushing it a specific number of times, then hold it in to go to next number, repeat process.  Means you select a five digit number with ones and twos.  

When I push the start button, I can release it and the starter continues to run until the engine starts.  Don't remember it doing that early on.  Does everyone work that way, or just my "Guzzi Bitch"?  

AH the fun of my Guzzi!

Mine does that too. Always has. I think there's a time-out to turn it off if it doesn't start.

[MisterSmooth]

...When I push the start button, I can release it and the starter continues to run until the engine starts...

Yeah, they do that.  It's an interesting little quirk, eh?

And I love the bike too, quirkiness and all.    There's something about it that gets me.    It's not a stat sheet bike, it's more like my R1100S.  But it's a better bike than the BMW was.

[chornbe]

But it's a better bike than the BMW was.

OH ZNAP! YOU HEATHEN!

[blakebird]

The key immobilizer doesn't bother me in the least, and didn't with my Ducati.
It would bother the hell out of me if I lost the key...

The 'push and release, it'll go until it starts' is also fine by me. Works as advertised and I don't really consider it strange or a quirk.

When the bike has been sitting in the hot sun all day though.... it doesn't want to fire and settle into an idle like it does first thing in the morning. It has what seems like a pre-set choke circuit - it settles into a fairly high idle for 30 seconds before lowering to 1100rpm standard idle.

When it's been sitting in the sun, I think temp sensors say it doesn't need the choke circuit due to high ambient temperatures, and it won't idle high enough to stay running. You have to babysit the throttle for a minute.
That's about as quirky as the system gets, and it's nothing I think about.

My Ducati was far quirkier, though just as fun and involving to ride.

[johnnyquest]

Just chiming in as a data point. My bike does the same as blakebird's, in that it runs fantastic in the morning when it's cool and has a bit of a hard time in the heat. When it's 105 out it will surge at idle once the motor's warmed up. Strange thing is that if I put the bike in neutral and let the clutch out, the surging will stop. It can also be a bit difficult to start when running errands (multiple short trips) on a hot day, but not always. I just figured it was that Italian "character" that everyone speaks of, or perhaps it's that the bike was born in the cool climes of Northern Italy where it never gets that hot. Makes me wonder if we brought a factory Moto Guzzi mechanic to Arizona how sporadic they would work in the summer heat!

JQ

[bisbonian]

Just chiming in as a data point. My bike does the same as blakebird's, in that it runs fantastic in the morning when it's cool and has a bit of a hard time in the heat. When it's 105 out it will surge at idle once the motor's warmed up. Strange thing is that if I put the bike in neutral and let the clutch out, the surging will stop. It can also be a bit difficult to start when running errands (multiple short trips) on a hot day, but not always. I just figured it was that Italian "character" that everyone speaks of, or perhaps it's that the bike was born in the cool climes of Northern Italy where it never gets that hot. Makes me wonder if we brought a factory Moto Guzzi mechanic to Arizona how sporadic they would work in the summer heat!

JQ

Do you still have the charcoal canister in there?   Mine did that when I first got it, I removed the canister and have no issues whatsoever now and gained a little underseat space.

As for the original starter issue; either on Guzzitech or Wildguzzi someone mentioned that the wires going to the starter relay are undersized at one point and that causes issues.  The had good pictures of how to replace that bit of wire so you may want to check it out.

[blakebird]

Do you still have the charcoal canister in there?   Mine did that when I first got it, I removed the canister and have no issues whatsoever now and gained a little underseat space.

I haven't gotten around to removing mine - but I'd sure make use of the space.
Is there a diagram or post in a thread somewhere that shows/tells which lines to plug or reconnect elsewhere?

[bisbonian]

I haven't gotten around to removing mine - but I'd sure make use of the space.
Is there a diagram or post in a thread somewhere that shows/tells which lines to plug or reconnect elsewhere?

There might be something on Wildguzzi.

It's really pretty straightforward once you get in there and I don't know that you'll really need any instructions.  The hose comes from the canister and then tees into the 2 hose nipples on the outside of the throttle bodies.   I removed the banjo bolts from the throttle bodies that the hose hooked to and replaced them with short allen head bolts, maybe 6mm but I don't remember.  I just reinstall if I want to sync the tb's.

I think the other hose goes to the tank, I spliced into an exiting tee down there somewhere with the other stuff coming out of the tank, or maybe I used the tee off the first hose and spliced it in; I don't remember.

Honestly once you get in there it's fairly obvious.

I was having issues that if the bike sat in the sun it would barely start at all.  Embarrassing in the first week while you're showing it off.  If I opened the fuel cap the pressure would rush out.  Many people suggested just making sure the canister system was working right but since I couldn't find a problem I just removed it.  The bike has never acted up since and I don't have any of the inconsistent idle issues that many talk about.  I've been lambasted in the past for removing it but for me it was a no lose situation and I've never given it another thought.

Remember that the US is the only market that they install the canister in so the manufacturer may not have all that much experience with getting it in there right and making it work.

[chornbe]

 I've been lambasted in the past for removing it but for me it was a no lose situation and I've never given it another thought.

By whom?  

[blakebird]

I've removed the canister from a few bikes.
Most notably the oilhead boxers where it's hung off the bike externally and looks like a KLR tool tube...

If it uglied up the bike like that, it would be off already...but out of sight, out of mind.
First snow, when I feel like some quality garage tinker time and can't ride - will probably be perfect.
Just hoping that's not too soon, the morning temps on the way to work at 5:45am are dropping like a stone. It was 45F the other day and a few days before I was riding in wearing a mesh jacket with no liner....and loving it.

[bisbonian]

By whom?  

No one on here.

Some of those Guzzi guys get a little bent out of shape if you take parts off that were put on in the factory to reduce our emissions.  

The opinion is that you can make it work properly and have a clean bike.  

My opinion was that it was much less work to just remove the darn thing and be finished with the whole mess.

[bisbonian]

Just hoping that's not too soon, the morning temps on the way to work at 5:45am are dropping like a stone. It was 45F the other day and a few days before I was riding in wearing a mesh jacket with no liner....and loving it.

It's 6 pm here in Kuwait right now and still at 111F  High today was probably close to 118.

Even at night high 80's is the coolest it gets.

Next weekend we have a run in memorial of September 11 which starts at 4am in order to beat the heat.  Who gets up and runs at 4am?

I'm told Afghanistan is cooler, but they shoot at you there so it's a trade off.

[Biking Sailor]

The charcoal canister came off mine this weekend, just disconnected the three hoses and plugged them.  Only rode it a bit in about 90 degree heat.  No starting or running issues, but a little early to tell.

Will complete the task (pulling all the hoses off) this fall if all looks good after some more miles and weather conditions to do a proper test.

[johnnyquest]

Yeah, I've been meaning to post up and thank Bisbonian for the advise. One of my biker friends was looking at the cannister and hoses with me and it does look pretty easy to remove. I'm not sweating it too bad at this point as it's starting to cool off here, and it looks like I may be heading out to San Diego at the end of this month for 5 months of training for a new job. I will definitely look into the cannister-ectomy before next summer though.

JQ