The New VFR1200ST

[Dan K]

So where is it?  There's pics in another thread....is it going to be what everyone wanted the VFR1200 to be?

Bigger gas tank? Bigger bags?  Better looks?  A sporty touring version of the K1300S (short of the K1300GT)?

I thought Honda was releasing all these models at the Milan show, but I see nothing other than the cross tourer, cross runner...

Anyone know anything about it?

- Dan

[motormike]

I'm waiting, too.  This looks interesting to me except for the engine size since I'm a noob...but I'm not going to run out and buy one in the spring.

[Rincewind]

Maybe they shelved it again like they did last year.

Maybe it became the new CrossTourer V4 as Honda realized the ADV-Tourer is the new ST.

Maybe Honda needs to sell more VFR1200's before they will bring it out.

Maybe I'm making all this up and don't really have any idea.

[Dan K]

Maybe they shelved it again like they did last year.

Maybe it became the new CrossTourer V4 as Honda realized the ADV-Tourer is the new ST.

Maybe Honda needs to sell more VFR1200's before they will bring it out.

Maybe I'm making all this up and don't really have any idea.

Maybe.  But I did see those pictures...why reshelve it?  It's a bike people definitely want and not a jump on latest ADV bandwagon.

- Dan

[Rincewind]

Maybe.  But I did see those pictures...why reshelve it?  It's a bike people definitely want and not a jump on latest ADV bandwagon.

- Dan

It was ORIGINALLY supposed to come out last year alongside the VFR12F.  They blamed the economy for shelving it.

[motormike]

So, that other thread was made up?

Edit to add this thread: http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,55516.0.html

[Rincewind]

So, that other thread was made up?

No it was based on a bike that was developed but not yet in production.  Not every bike developed by manufacturers becomes a production reality.  That said, it is a fact that Honda has applied for patents for this specific bike.  And it's a fact that the existing ST1300 is long in tooth and will be replaced someday.  Who knows when.

[chornbe]

The ST1300 has MPG north of 40 and a 7 gallon tank. If Honda doesn't remind themselves of that, then man... it's seriously game over for Big Red in many market segments.

[GRN]

The ST1300 has MPG north of 40 and a 7 gallon tank. If Honda doesn't remind themselves of that, then man... it's seriously game over for Big Red in many market segments.

I know a lot (like hundreds) of ST13 owners, and the few that really put the tank to use still add an aux tank. I've never found the range of my Honda ST's to be any big advantage, and I've done plenty of touring on other bikes... gotta stop for other reasons anyway, might as well do it where you can grab a snack and engage the locals a bit - find some interesting stuff that way.

I've been waiting for the ST13 replacement a la new 1200 platform for a year, if it doesn't happen this time around and I stay in the segment w/ my next bike, I'll go back to Triumph... shoulda kept the Sprint and sold the ST13 when we moved.

[chornbe]

 

I know a lot (like hundreds) of ST13 owners, and the few that really put the tank to use still add an aux tank. I've never found the range of my Honda ST's to be any big advantage, and I've done plenty of touring on other bikes... gotta stop for other reasons anyway, might as well do it where you can grab a snack and engage the locals a bit - find some interesting stuff that way.

I've been waiting for the ST13 replacement a la new 1200 platform for a year, if it doesn't happen this time around and I stay in the segment w/ my next bike, I'll go back to Triumph... shoulda kept the Sprint and sold the ST13 when we moved.

I hear that, and fully understand, and don't disagree. The angst of filling up every stop is often mitigated by the need to stop for other reasons. Never in question nor contested.

... but that's stopping because you WANT to and in the long run, you're still gong to spend more money on a 31MPG bike than a 45+ MPG bike.

I'd rather stop every two hours because I *want* to, knowing that I can top off every other stop, or that I have a little extra in the tank should I not be able to find something on, say, Rt. 190 in California.

[GRN]

I hear that, and fully understand, and don't disagree. The angst of filling up every stop is often mitigated by the need to stop for other reasons. Never in question nor contested.

... but that's stopping because you WANT to and in the long run, you're still gong to spend more money on a 31MPG bike than a 45+ MPG bike.

I'd rather stop every two hours because I *want* to, knowing that I can top off every other stop, or that I have a little extra in the tank should I not be able to find something on, say, Rt. 190 in California.

Agreed, wasn't arguing economy, just capacity. I do consider overall range as I tend to ride longish stretches, ST is good for 300+, Sprint was good for 200+ which was enough although I wouldn't want to go much lower.

[chornbe]

... 200+ which was enough although I wouldn't want to go much lower.

 

I consider that the minimum for a "tourable" bike. My sportster was just shy of that, and believe me, there were times when sucking fumes got really, really old at 180+ miles on a damn near dry tank.  

[1000lbs]

I'd rather stop every two hours because I *want* to, knowing that I can top off every other stop, or that I have a little extra in the tank should I not be able to find something on, say, Rt. 190 in California.

The 300+ range was a pretty big factor when I picked up a ST13 as a touring mount.  I'm with Chris on this, stopping when you want to, rather than when needed is a big plus in my book.  Especially when ripping across the desert from SoCal to Vegas and not having to worry about how far the throttle is twisted.  I'd hope the new 1200ST bike would at least offer 250+ mile range to take the edge off watching the fuel gauge while touring.

[STJoe]

180+ miles

on a Sportster?  Were you were going down hill?  

In addition to touring range, if you have a long commute, having to fill the bike every couple of days is a real drag.  

I too would like to see ST version.   But I have to admit, the Adventure Tourer is probably going to be the bigger market.

[tdeboeser]

 

But I have to admit, the Adventure Tourer is probably going to be the bigger market.

Yeah, I expect the AvT to be the SUV of motorcycling.  Thing is most of the AvT's will be 99% road only bikes.  

Thats not gonna stop me from buying a MTS1200.

Tom de - I love my bigass tank.  

[GRN]

The 300+ range was a pretty big factor when I picked up a ST13 as a touring mount.  I'm with Chris on this, stopping when you want to, rather than when needed is a big plus in my book.  Especially when ripping across the desert from SoCal to Vegas and not having to worry about how far the throttle is twisted.  I'd hope the new 1200ST bike would at least offer 250+ mile range to take the edge off watching the fuel gauge while touring.

New Tiger 800 looks to be able to meet the 250/tank mark... that's good enough for me. If I'm doing one of the longer off road routes I'll carry a small tank to CMA.

[Dan K]

If the VFR came in that nice ST version, I'd consider buying one...in a few years.

- Dan

[STJoe]

I might be in the market a year from now as well.   Have to say at this point I'm looking pretty hard at the new Beemer six cylinder, but a ST version of the VFR might change that.  

[Dan K]

In my most recent google search, I saw an old article that said this and the new 1200 veradero type bike were finished, but release was pending based on success (cough..) of the VFR.

Still nothing new that I can find.

- Dan

[KodiakRS]

but release was pending based on success (cough..) of the VFR.

Speaking of which, has anyone seen any sales numbers for the new VFR?  Apparently I suck at google and can't find any sales numbers.  I know the only one I've seen is a standard transmission model collecting dust on the floor of my local dealer.

[GRN]

Speaking of which, has anyone seen any sales numbers for the new VFR?  Apparently I suck at google and can't find any sales numbers.  I know the only one I've seen is a standard transmission model collecting dust on the floor of my local dealer.

The three local dealers I have talked to have all just shaken their heads in disgust when I have asked how they have done with the VFR12... they all gave it a fair shift in the showroom spotlight position, and now dwell in the ugly step child corner... the Dullville gets better floor space because they actually sell a few of those.

[chornbe]

Speaking of which, has anyone seen any sales numbers for the new VFR?  Apparently I suck at google and can't find any sales numbers.  I know the only one I've seen is a standard transmission model collecting dust on the floor of my local dealer.

Honda's sales numbers for Nov 2010 show them in 3rd place from the Jap Big Four, trailing significantly behind Yamaha in the #1 spot. However...

They are up a LOT from this time last year. 133% over this time last year with over 9900 units exported. Yamaha and Kawasaki held almost perfectly steady, within just a couple of percentage points of last year.

While that doesn't help with model-specific breakdowns, it shows that Honda seems to have a clue and has appropriately shrunken their model line offerings to the stuff that sells. With that in mind, the DN-01 and the VFR1200F *appear* to be sales flops locally. But, are they...? If you wanna take a point of consideration... the VFR was never a big seller in terms of absolute numbers, and the DN-01 was clearly not designed or meant to be a sales leader given the odd tech and price point. I'd say Honda is shipping units within a reasonable expectation.

Admittedly... Total guesswork based on their increase over last year's numbers.

[marc11]

Honda's sales numbers for Nov 2010 show them in 3rd place from the Jap Big Four, trailing significantly behind Yamaha in the #1 spot. However...

They are up a LOT from this time last year. 133% over this time last year with over 9900 units exported. Yamaha and Kawasaki held almost perfectly steady, within just a couple of percentage points of last year.

While that doesn't help with model-specific breakdowns, it shows that Honda seems to have a clue and has appropriately shrunken their model line offerings to the stuff that sells. With that in mind, the DN-01 and the VFR1200F *appear* to be sales flops locally. But, are they...? If you wanna take a point of consideration... the VFR was never a big seller in terms of absolute numbers, and the DN-01 was clearly not designed or meant to be a sales leader given the odd tech and price point. I'd say Honda is shipping units within a reasonable expectation.

Admittedly... Total guesswork based on their increase over last year's numbers.

This is interesting because what is actually different in the Honda lineup from last year?  The Deauville and new VFR?  That's about it right?  So are they really bringing in what people want, or did they discount so much that people are buying on price alone (not that it matters)?  Also, it seems you are quoting a mix of sales and export numbers, exports (or US imports) aren't sales figures.  If you are just looking at total number of imports, it very well be to restock warehouses or to move crap out of over crowded warehouses in Japan.  It is far cheaper to store stuff in the US and wait for it to sell then to store it in Japan.  Also, one more point to consider, if you are looking at just import numbers, when did the Goldwing stop being made domestically and start being imported.  This year or last year?

[chornbe]

This is interesting because what is actually different in the Honda lineup from last year?  The Deauville and new VFR?  That's about it right?  So are they really bringing in what people want, or did they discount so much that people are buying on price alone (not that it matters)?  Also, it seems you are quoting a mix of sales and export numbers, exports (or US imports) aren't sales figures.  If you are just looking at total number of imports, it very well be to restock warehouses or to move crap out of over crowded warehouses in Japan.  It is far cheaper to store stuff in the US and wait for it to sell then to store it in Japan.  Also, one more point to consider, if you are looking at just import numbers, when did the Goldwing stop being made domestically and start being imported.  This year or last year?

I repeat... "Admittedly... Total guesswork based on their increase over last year's numbers."  

Those were export number, indeed. I've seen new Shadow RSes, new CBRs, I know a few people who have bought new Shadow 750s recently, etc. If there are deep discounts on Hondas, I haven't seen them, beyond certain known volume and discount dealers like Honda East of Toledo, etc. I've actually seen a couple Deauvilles out in the wild, too.  

Still no VFRs or DN-01s, though. (James did mention on the 'cast he saw a VFR on the road in Delaware )

Hmm... I was under the impression that Goldwing manufacturing was suspended until 2011 when the assembly line in Japan would be fully online, and any "new" units were existing stock and bin-builds. I remember reading that somewhere earlier in the year, but I can not find a source. Admittedly, I may be spewing others' guesswork and assumption.

[atadaskew]

Speaking of which, has anyone seen any sales numbers for the new VFR?  Apparently I suck at google and can't find any sales numbers.  I know the only one I've seen is a standard transmission model collecting dust on the floor of my local dealer.

With the amount Honda has sold, you need to google 'sale number' not 'sales numbers'

[Orson]

I'm afraid the Honda VFR1200 may end up dying after just a few model years like the Yamaha GTS  

too much technology and too pricey for the average consumer.

I hate seeing cool bikes go by the wayside.

[Dan K]

I'm afraid the Honda VFR1200 may end up dying after just a few model years like the Yamaha GTS  

too much technology and too pricey for the average consumer.

I hate seeing cool bikes go by the wayside.

Won't happen.  Eventually, Honda will figure a way to utilize the R&D and the new engine in another bike or 2.

-Dan

[atadaskew]

I'm afraid the Honda VFR1200 may end up dying after just a few model years like the Yamaha GTS  

too much technology and too pricey for the average consumer.

I hate seeing cool bikes go by the wayside.

What do you mean by too much technology?

Aside from the auto box, it offers less than other bikes.  'Budget' suspension, no suspension modes, no traction modes etc etc

And the standard bike ultimately is a lower specced BMW K1300S.  I would take the standard transmission bike anyway - I like to shift gears old skool.  PLus it is much quicker than the auto bike.

Butt for the discounted price that it is apparenlty selling for - $13K some say - I think it's a great deal.

[Orson]

What do you mean by too much technology?

Aside from the auto box, it offers less than other bikes.  

you fergot the state of the art paint job  

it's also kinda impressive that they built a 1200cc engine that can fit inside the airbox of a Zundapp 125 dirtbike  

[atadaskew]

you fergot the state of the art paint job  

it's also kinda impressive that they built a 1200cc engine that can fit inside the airbox of a Zundapp 125 dirtbike  

a/ which according to owners is as soft as boiled ramen noodles.
I had that problem on my Wing 1800.  If I just barely grazed the paint on the 'gas tank' wearing jeans it would dull.


2/ So why's the bike so heavy?

 

[Orson]

2/ So why's the bike so heavy?

I read that the paint is as heavy as a 125 Zundapp dirtbike.

so they cancel each other out.

crafty.

[Will_Munny]

What do you mean by too much technology?
Aside from the auto box, it offers less than other bikes.  'Budget' suspension, no suspension modes, no traction modes etc etc

While the lack of gadgets is disappointing, it's loaded with some really cool high-tech that doesn't sound sexy or make headlines. The engine is where all the high tech went. The phase-split crank cancels the vibrations from the compact narrow cylinder angle... it runs as 2 rotating couples, with pairs of cylinders firing in quick pairs. It behaves as 2 separate parallel twins on a common crank, but without the vibration. They gave the rear bank shorter headers than the front one to spread out the power curve. The throttle by wire smooths the power delivery and eliminates the need for an intake air control valve. It also eliminates bogging by only allowing the throttle plates to open only wide enough to handle the maximum amount of air flowing through. The Unicam layout is a first for a streetbike (no it isn't the same as SOHC) and further reduces the size of the engine. Even the oiling system is pretty advanced, with a sealed crankcase and scavenge pump like a dry-sump motor plus piston cooling oil jets.

The ABS unfortunately isn't the newer generation found on the CBRs, but the mild linking they gave it works almost transparently and the brakes are incredibly powerful.

The drive-shaft is the first to use a sliding CV joint and an offset pivot which completely eliminates the torque reaction, and it's all housed inside a hollow single-sided swingarm with no need for a torque arm or parralelogram mount.  Again, not sexy but high-tech stuff nonetheless.

Higher-spec suspension would be nice but it does ride and handle quite capably with a good balance of sport and comfort.

[Rincewind]

Update article: http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/whats-happened-to-the-vfr1200-tourer/17314.html

The article says the patent drawings for this bike have now been published.  However they were on a time-release for publication since filed in 2009, so the fact that they are now publicly published may not actually mean much.  Perhaps Honda anticipated two-years ago that they would have the bike out by now.

[atadaskew]

I heard 2012 is going to be a big year for Honda.

That is, if the world doesn't implode.

[Justin]

While the lack of gadgets is disappointing, it's loaded with some really cool high-tech that doesn't sound sexy or make headlines. The engine is where all the high tech went. The phase-split crank cancels the vibrations from the compact narrow cylinder angle... it runs as 2 rotating couples, with pairs of cylinders firing in quick pairs. It behaves as 2 separate parallel twins on a common crank, but without the vibration. They gave the rear bank shorter headers than the front one to spread out the power curve. The throttle by wire smooths the power delivery and eliminates the need for an intake air control valve. It also eliminates bogging by only allowing the throttle plates to open only wide enough to handle the maximum amount of air flowing through. The Unicam layout is a first for a streetbike (no it isn't the same as SOHC) and further reduces the size of the engine. Even the oiling system is pretty advanced, with a sealed crankcase and scavenge pump like a dry-sump motor plus piston cooling oil jets.

The ABS unfortunately isn't the newer generation found on the CBRs, but the mild linking they gave it works almost transparently and the brakes are incredibly powerful.

The drive-shaft is the first to use a sliding CV joint and an offset pivot which completely eliminates the torque reaction, and it's all housed inside a hollow single-sided swingarm with no need for a torque arm or parralelogram mount.  Again, not sexy but high-tech stuff nonetheless.

Higher-spec suspension would be nice but it does ride and handle quite capably with a good balance of sport and comfort.

Sounds like you own one  

[gritsngravy]

 

[gritsngravy]

I'm afraid the Honda VFR1200 may end up dying after just a few model years like the Yamaha GTS  

too much technology and too pricey for the average consumer.

I hate seeing cool bikes go by the wayside.

Absolutely!!   It's all about what the majority is willing to pay.   It's one thing to want a ton of crap on your bike to ride to Starbucks and it's definately quite another to actually have the means to do so.