Ferrari 458 Italia vs Ducati 1198S

[DNA]

Production bikes vs production cars - the bikes always win.... the car is is saddled with all the DOT safety crap, weather protection, creature comforts, aesthetics, etc.

At the pinnacle of the sports, MotoGP vs Formula 1, the bike gets crushed so badly it's embarrassing.  Lap times at Sepang International Circuit are in the 1:30s for F1 and over 2:00 for MotoGP.

We need someone to invent wings and spoilers for bikes dammit!

Seriously that big a difference?

I thought the car won, but not by that much.  

[ABStrommer]

Hmmm, I can't see what 'crap' the 458 is saddled with, except maybe street-legal tires and a passenger seat.  It should still be able to take corners at 150+ that a production superbike might have to take at 120.  Could traction control be the new equalizer here?  Or does that track just favor 2-wheelers.

Has anyone done skid pad testing on bikes?  It seems every car test includes lateral g's around a 200 ft skid pad.  I wonder why this isn't done for bikes?   It seems to me it would quite clearly differentiate ultimate cornering ability (and would be able to attribute it to lean angle or tire grip).

I do recall reading somewhere that a Gixxer could generate over a g in lateral acceleration, which would place in with some very elite road cars.

[chornbe]

Has anyone done skid pad testing on bikes?  It seems every car test includes lateral g's around a 200 ft skid pad.  I wonder why this isn't done for bikes?   It seems to me it would quite clearly differentiate ultimate cornering ability (and would be able to attribute it to lean angle or tire grip).

I do recall reading somewhere that a Gixxer could generate over a g in lateral acceleration, which would place in with some very elite road cars.

'cause that would mean a high side or a low side once you get over the threshold of traction and who wants to start throwing bikes and riders around for a number that's less meaningful in absolute terms. Bikes are more susceptible to road conditions ending badly than a raw, clean skidpad test would indicate.

$.02

[Sarchi]

They described the car in some detail, I would've thought DTC was at least worth mentioning.

The electronics package on the 1198S includes the sophisticated DTC (Ducati Traction Control) system, an 8-stage piece of technical wizardry that's come straight out of Ducati's MotoGP and WSBK development programs. The system has been adapted from the racebike system found on the 1098R - which cut the spark to restore traction. This would have sent unburned fuel through the catalyzer and damaged a streetbike's emissions-compliant exhaust system.

Instead, the DTC unit retards ignition as the bike loses traction, and if you're really wailing on the throttle it alters fueling to get your rear-end grip back together. Eight settings between "terrified newbie on a wet road" and "super slide god hero" allow skilled riders to dial in as much controlled slide as they want for the conditions, using an easily accessible knob on the left switchblock. Initial testing has found the system to be effective, comfortable and non-intrusive on the track.

[ABStrommer]

'cause that would mean a high side or a low side once you get over the threshold of traction and who wants to start throwing bikes and riders around for a number that's less meaningful in absolute terms. Bikes are more susceptible to road conditions ending badly than a raw, clean skidpad test would indicate.

$.02

Good point.  Bikes are much harder to ride to the traction limit.

I expect cruisers would typically drag hard parts before sliding, but would a sportbike lose traction in a constant radius curve before something scraped?  Would this be so sudden as to be unmanageable on a skip pad?

[chornbe]

Good point.  Bikes are much harder to ride to the traction limit.

I expect cruisers would typically drag hard parts before sliding, but would a sportbike lose traction in a constant radius curve before something scraped?  Would this be so sudden as to be unmanageable on a skip pad?

Truly have no idea - I'm definitely working on supposition.

It's really quite dependent on tires and smooth throttle more than most other factors, I'd imagine.

[Cablebandit]

would a sportbike lose traction in a constant radius curve before something scraped?  Would this be so sudden as to be unmanageable on a skip pad?

I would think not since it's very easy to scrape parts even at low speeds in a parking lot without losing traction.  

[Sarchi]

There's race brakes/electronics on the Duc that would've added $10k to the price even a few years ago.  But a 2-second 'win' around SOW, is that really such a big deal or could it be just a matter of wind and driver concentration?  Or who knows, maybe Ferrari just threw this one in their ongoing Valentino shenanigans.  I mean, Ducati can sell more superbikes from something like this- how many more Ferraris stand to be sold if the production was limited to advance orders.

[garry]

2 seconds per lap is a lifetime on a race track, but I suspect that's more to do with SOW tight layout. Put them on an open, flowing track and I bet the result would be a lot closer.

[Justin]

Production bikes vs production cars - the bikes always win.... the car is is saddled with all the DOT safety crap, weather protection, creature comforts, aesthetics, etc.

I've seen some where the car wins, and that is usually the case on a road course. Sports cars have an advantage on breaking and corning. Last one I saw was the Nissan Skyline versus a similar Ducati and the Skyline won. Guess it depends on the track and operators. But you just can't touch the straightline acceleration of a superbike on the straights.

[Sarchi]

Viva Italia.

[reppans]

I've seen some where the car wins, and that is usually the case on a road course. Sports cars have an advantage on breaking and corning. Last one I saw was the Nissan Skyline versus a similar Ducati and the Skyline won. Guess it depends on the track and operators. But you just can't touch the straightline acceleration of a superbike on the straights.

Fair enough... I should have said "usually wins."  Guess who wins this one (Veyron vs S1000RR)?
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/Bike/latest-issue/  

How 'bout Formula 1 vs MotoGP in straight line acceleration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uXO2eRW8X0

[reppans]

Hmmm, I can't see what 'crap' the 458 is saddled with, except maybe street-legal tires and a passenger seat.  It should still be able to take corners at 150+ that a production superbike might have to take at 120.  Could traction control be the new equalizer here?  Or does that track just favor 2-wheelers.

Compared to another production car, I agree with you that the Ferrari probably doesn't have much crap on it.  But my point is that a production bike is not saddled with much more crap than a MotoGP race bike.  A production car, however, is way more handicapped than a Formula 1 race car... stupid stuff like: fenders, windshields, doors, a roof, 5mph bumpers, etc.  Even if the car can hold a higher cornering speed, all that crap means the bike will roast it in the straights between the corners.

Best on best, MotoGP vs F1...... the bike is toast.  (OK, admittedly, with the ability to run full aerodynamics, the F1 can pull 4 or 5 more corning Gs than than the  bike.... or production car).

[kevin_stevens]

Hmmm, I can't see what 'crap' the 458 is saddled with, except maybe street-legal tires and a passenger seat.  It should still be able to take corners at 150+ that a production superbike might have to take at 120.  Could traction control be the new equalizer here?  Or does that track just favor 2-wheelers.

SOW favors the bike in some ways, there are a couple of sections that are chicanes for the car and straights for the bike.

OTOH, there are a lot of braking and transition zones, which is where the cars kill the bikes.  I'd think the bike would do even better at Willow big track, with much longer acceleration zones and big sweepers.  Looking at Willow videos of a GT-R, liter bikes are pulling more than 20mph more down the front straight.

If you gave me the Ferrari and choice of the two to run for pink slips, I'd take SOW.

KeS

[reppans]

Seriously that big a difference?

I thought the car won, but not by that much.  

MotoGP lap record 2:01

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2010/rossi+on+top+in+the+second+day+testing+in+sepang

F1 lap record 1:34

http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/malaysia_806/

[Justin]

Fair enough... I should have said "usually wins."  Guess who wins this one (Veyron vs S1000RR)?
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/Bike/latest-issue/  

That's a close one up to about 150 - after that I'd give it to the Veyron. If I was a betting man, I'd have to say the Veyron.