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Topic: How to brake effectively without silly ABS...  (Read 14398 times)

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Busy Little Whiner
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« on: December 03, 2006, 10:58:10 PM »

If you aren't sure you can judge available traction, speed and distance, or
don't want to think about it that much, then by all means rely on ABS. but
if you wish to brake hard and still have some skin in the game then read
on...

Step 1
Sort your bike out... check tire pressures and condition, suspension
settings, brake condition, then find a smooth, straight, clean bit of road
without too much camber. Do a few runs braking fairly hard to warm the
tires and get a feel for how it handles. As you line up for your first hard
stop, you need to be relaxed... If you find yourself pitching forward, grip
the tank with your knees to hold your weight off the bars...

Step 2
The initial phase is important because how you first apply the brakes
determines how the bike reacts. Your brakes are not an on/off switch.
You're looking for a smooth initial application that transfers weight on to
the front tire without suddenly compressing the suspension. If you just
grab on the lever, the suspension bottoms out, and then it can't absorb
any more movement. Something has to give and it's usually the tire which
may begin to break traction... So be smooth and be firm... that's the key...

Step 3
Having transferred the weight onto the front tire, you've given yourself
bags of extra grip. To use it, you need to increase the pressure on the
lever progressively. On any modern Sportsbike and most all Standards you
should be able brake hard enough for the rear wheel to lift off the ground.
If it starts hopping that's because the engine is locking it up... clutch in or
slipped and it should stop...
This is hard as you can brake in normal conditions. At this point, the rear
brake's no use to you at all. This is not a stoppie, by the way, that's a
separate stunt...

Step 4
Once you're up to full braking effort, you still have to assess what's going
in you path. If you're about to cross a patch of oil or cross a patch of dirt,
you'll want to release the lever pressure  slightly, then increase it again as
the extra risk is passed. You need to be relaxed enough so that if you feel
the wheel locking, you can let lever off until it spins again, then get back
up to braking pressure. The only way to make this an instinctive reaction is
to practise deliberately locking and releasing the brake... if you don't wish
to risk your prize then Keith Code has a special bike built just for you called
the Panic Brake Trainer...


Step 5
As you come almost to the point of stopping, you'll obviously need to
actuate the clutch lever in to avoid stalling you can do this as soon as you
start to brake, but why not use the engine braking  for it will help you keep
control. Secondly, slightly slightly release the braking pressure at the very
last moment. This gives the suspension a chance to return to normal
otherwise you come to a halt, and the forks bounce up from full travel,
which can unbalance you as try to put your foot down and stop... mercy
you don't want to avoid an accident and then drop the bike like a
beginner...

How about your BIKE???
I trust it's in good shape, well-adjusted, and with plenty of life left in brake
pads and tires. Wrong tires pressures or worn tires can destroy braking feel
and performance

HANDS???
Some people use all four fingers on the brake lever, and some prefer two or
three. One is a possible with the latest race brakes but I find that the less
fingers the harder to get the fine control I need on the track... so I
alternate between two on the street and four on the track... no one is
going to criticize the number of fingers as long as you can brake in the
shortest distance possible listed in the owners manual...

SURFACE???
Constantly changing... after all... it's the perverted highway... so you need
to keep changing your braking pressure, and be prepared to let the brakes
off altogether over really slippery bits...

ARMS
Don't lock them straight... for you'll lose feel and control. Brace your body
weight by taking weight through the foot pegs and gripping the tank dents
between your knees...

CLUTCH
Leave it engaged until the very last moment it should help you stop quicker
and more in control if you use the engine braking. If the engine starts to
lock the back wheel up, slip the clutch slightly exactly as you would when
you pull away... now if your prize sports a slipper clutch then it will limit the
engine braking automatically for you...

BRAIN
Thinking to itself, "Do I need to stop? Couldn't I just bleed off a little speed
and ride round the problem? Where are my escape routes?" If you plan
well enough ahead then you should hardly ever need to do an emergency
stop. You should always be aware of your position in relation to the
perverted traffic full of cagers out slaughtering the fine art of driving...

EYES
Constantly looking for another way out of trouble... don't look at the
problem or you'll ride straight towards it... rather focus on your escape route...
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« on: December 03, 2006, 10:58:10 PM »

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Mr Sunshine
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2006, 11:08:27 PM »

My god.  Ignorance.
 
ABS is just there for when you make a mistake.  We all do.  ABS does not get in the way of normal every day braking and those occasional times when you need to thereshold brake.
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2006, 11:17:41 PM »

Quote from: Mr Sunshine;9650
My god.  Ignorance.
 
ABS is just there for when you make a mistake. We all do. ABS does not get in the way of normal every day braking and those occasional times when you need to thereshold brake.

Granted we all make mistakes but have you noticed that the more you know
the fewer mistakes you make???
« Last Edit: December 05, 2006, 02:58:38 PM by Busy Little Shop » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2006, 11:19:28 PM »

Actually to get the maximum benefit from your braking in an "emergency" situation you should practice as stated above, but, prior to actually practicing the threshold braking you should snort a line of crystal meth.
 
This will simulate the jolt of adrenaline you get in real life situations where you absolutely have to push your brakes to the limit.  And, in addition, the meth will allow you to practice all nite long.  You will also find that you can get more than enough meth with the money you save on the ABS option.  Kind of a win-win situation.
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2006, 11:20:35 PM »

Quote from: Busy Little Shop;9657
Granted we all make mistakes but have you noticed that the more you know
the less mistakes you make???

No.  The more I know the less I pay attention thus the more mistakes I make.  
 
Just ask Greench440 about that white truck I almost got to ass pack.  It was solely due to my track skills I didn't hit the truck.  It was also solely due to my track skills I didn't pay enough attention to what was going on as I was only traveling at 70mph.
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2006, 11:21:20 PM »

Quote from: county;9661
Actually to get the maximum benefit from your braking in an "emergency" situation you should practice as stated above, but, prior to actually practicing the threshold braking you should snort a line of crystal meth.
 
This will simulate the jolt of adrenaline you get in real life situations where you absolutely have to push your brakes to the limit. And, in addition, the meth will allow you to practice all nite long. You will also find that you can get more than enough meth with the money you save on the ABS option. Kind of a win-win situation.

Lmao
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2006, 11:24:35 PM »

Honing one's braking skills is no laughing matter.
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2006, 11:24:35 PM »


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Uncle Bob
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2006, 11:26:33 PM »

Quote from: Busy Little Shop;9657
Granted we all make mistakes but have you noticed that the more you know
the less mistakes you make???

The less mistakes you make, the cockier you get too...then you make really big mistakes  Lol
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2006, 11:31:26 PM »

Quote from: county;9670
Honing one's braking skills is no laughing matter.

no, it is not.  Truly believing you can acheive perfection, or that you have already acheived it....thats funny.  

We all strive for it of course....but its a lost cause from the get go.  Gotta stay with reality now and then or someone will pop the air bag when you least expect it.  And thats also funny
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2006, 11:49:30 PM »

Quote from: Mr Sunshine;9663
No. The more I know the less I pay attention thus the more mistakes I make.

In most venues that would simply be considered a part of the learning curve. Bigsmile
 
At first you don't know squat and are aware of that fact. Mistakes come often even though awareness is high, the learning curve at this stage is usually very quick.
 
Next comes the stage where you start to actually know a bit. The learning curve slows and you slowly become more adept.
 
Next comes the dreaded "Know it all" phase. You become overconfident and concentration suffers. This is the stage where the really big screw-ups usually occur.
 
Finally you realize you can never know it all. You still screw up upon occasion due to the fact that familiarity always breeds a bit of contempt. But the really big mistakes are pretty rare.
 
Geez, I can't believe I just typed that bit of rubbish. EEK!
 
I'm going to bed.
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2006, 12:22:59 AM »

Quote from: Busy Little Shop;9647
Step 3
Having transferred the weight onto the front tire, you've given yourself bags of extra grip.
That's just not so! In fact it's just the opposite, as the more you load the front tire with weight transfer, the less you load the back tire, thus the total friction coefficient potential prior to skidding is reduced considerably. You have in fact just decreased your total "grip"!
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2006, 12:27:20 AM »

Quote from: Mr Sunshine;9663
No.  The more I know the less I pay attention thus the more mistakes I make.  

NO??? then your problem is obvious Chris... you haven't snorted enough crystal meth yet...
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2006, 12:39:10 AM »

Quote from: county;9661
Actually to get the maximum benefit from your braking in an "emergency" situation you should practice as stated above, but, prior to actually practicing the threshold braking you should snort a line of crystal meth.
 
This will simulate the jolt of adrenaline you get in real life situations where you absolutely have to push your brakes to the limit.  And, in addition, the meth will allow you to practice all nite long.  You will also find that you can get more than enough meth with the money you save on the ABS option.  Kind of a win-win situation.

Lol  Good point.  I had a mishap with a car with no headlights (at night) going the wrong way around a turnabout.  I lost the front on a pavement patch or trying to turn and brake at the same time, I don't know, but I did miss the car.

As me and my bike slid toward the curb (for some reason, I wouldn't let go) I saw the curb coming and squeezed the front brake with all I had.  This caused me to lever the bike against the curb and flip me into a pole.  Still hanging on with one hand, the bike flipped me around into a concrete filled steel well marker.

My point, in a true panic you are going to panic.  The idea behind practicing quick stops is to develop habits that increase your panic threshold so you don't lose your mind as quickly in an emergency situation as you would have without practice.

The only thing I would add is practice getting to your threshold of braking as quickly, and smoothly, as possible.  The one glaring mistake I see and a BMW driving instructor I know sees is our natural reaction to increase braking force as the point we want to stop gets close.

This is the wrong way to do it and causes the tire(s) to break loose at the worst possible moment for a motorcycle - when you are going the slowest and gyroscopic force is the least.

I like to practice getting to maximum braking as soon as possible.  Yes, this does mean that I will lock the front tire at 60 mph on a few occassions while practicing.  I've never gone down because of it.  As long as I am as light on the bars as I am squeezing the tank with all I have, I can modulate the brake and get traction back.

I also recommend that for coming to a complete stop you pull the clutch in.  I have seen many people, and some on the track, forget this in the heat of the moment and end up just hitting what they were trying to avoid as the bike jerks forward.

No matter what you do practice.  It isn't any fuin.  You are risking the possibility of crashing and it is physically taxing,  but it is worth it.

As for ABS, good luck with all the theories in the world in the wet on public roads.  You can't predict what the pavement, or what is on it, will be like.  I live in a rainy state and put on a lot of rain miles.  I still can't stop anywhere near as quickly as I would like to in the rain.

I have a riding buddy who mocks me with his ABS on a bike with skinny touring tires and weighing 200lbs more than mine(R1150RP).  I try to stop as quick as him in the wet.  We start out side by side, but I end up flying by when we hit the brakes every time.
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2006, 12:45:18 AM »

Quote from: Thor;9695
This is the wrong way to do it and causes the tire(s) to break loose at the worst possible moment for a motorcycle - when you are going the slowest and gyroscopic force is the least.

Gyroscopic force, with the front tire locked up, is none.  

Now if you're doing 100mph, and you lock up the front and the rear tire is still spinning, I guess you would have some force helping you stay up, but I can only speak from my personal experience.....locking up the front tire at high speeds (70mph for one of my adventures) will put you on the ground so fast you won't know what hit you.  

I've locked up the front tire at lower speeds many times, on purpose and in a panic, and haven't had any scary events (all mentioned events were while going straight....of course, if you aren't going straight, no matter your speed, you'll also be kissing the ground very quickly)

At lower speeds, if you lock up the front, and the front tries to tuck, you have a much better chance of catching it by putting a foot out, than you do at 70mph.  Thats for sure.
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2006, 12:45:18 AM »


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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2006, 12:51:47 AM »

Quote from: Thor;9695
This is the wrong way to do it and causes the tire(s) to break loose at the worst possible moment for a motorcycle - when you are going the slowest and gyroscopic force is the least.
The gyroscopic argument as the primary mechanism responsible for keeping a bike upright is false. In fact there is a bicycle with two upper counter-rotating wheels that creates (when in motion) equal and opposite precession torques on both front and rear portions, and thus functions as if the gyroscopic contribution is zero. This "zero-gyroscopic" bicycle is not only rideable, it is easily rideable. Literally hundreds of persons have ridden this and similar bikes, ranging in age from grade-school children to seniors.
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2006, 12:58:54 AM »

World's First Zero Gyroscopic Bicycle. This bike was built by a team of students at the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign, circa 1980's. Later they built a version using a twenty inch tire diameter, as this bike was pretty awkward to load up and take on the road as they did bicycle science demonstrations.
 
The upper counter-rotating wheels are in contact with the lower wheels and by friction, as well as having neglible tractive loading, maintain essentially equal but opposite rotational velocities. For the sake of the skeptics who still doubt, they have also conducted experiments where they have added extra mass to the upper tires thus giving the  experimental bikes a negative gyroscopic action!
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2006, 01:05:26 AM »

Quote from: Uncle Bob;9699
Gyroscopic force, with the front tire locked up, is none.  

Now if you're doing 100mph, and you lock up the front and the rear tire is still spinning, I guess you would have some force helping you stay up, but I can only speak from my personal experience.....locking up the front tire at high speeds (70mph for one of my adventures) will put you on the ground so fast you won't know what hit you.  

I've locked up the front tire at lower speeds many times, on purpose and in a panic, and haven't had any scary events (all mentioned events were while going straight....of course, if you aren't going straight, no matter your speed, you'll also be kissing the ground very quickly)

At lower speeds, if you lock up the front, and the front tries to tuck, you have a much better chance of catching it by putting a foot out, than you do at 70mph.  Thats for sure.

Yes, if you are turning at all or heavy on the bars you greatly increase your chances of going down quickly.

I didn't think me and the bike could do it until I went to a track where the the leader of the track day told us that no one could get bumped up to a faster class until they locked the front going down a side straight right before a tight right hander.

It was a very tight track and he wouldn't let anyone run with the fast folks until he knew that they could stop and control their bike.  It took a number of passes and he made me do it three times before he finally waived me into the pits to line up with the faster group.

I think they still make them lock the front for the advanced licensing tests in the U.K., but I haven't look at their training in quite some time.

A long time ago, in a past life, I learned that you could GRAB a handful of front brake on a Springer Softtail and the front tire would just bounce rapidly.  I don't recommend anyone do that. Bigsmile

(I suspect that it is the gyroscopic force of the rear AND the forward momentum that save you at high speeds.  Probably more momentum, I'm not sure.  I just know what works.)
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2006, 01:08:20 AM »

what speeds were you locking up the front on the track?

I don't really understand how you could even do it honestly.  Every race prepped bike I've ridden (very light with slicks) was incapable of locking up the front, the bike would endo no matter how hard and fast you grabbed the brakes.  Was this a street bike?
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2006, 01:15:40 AM »

Quote from: Chumly;9703
World's First Zero Gyroscopic Bicycle. This bike was built by a team of students at the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign, circa 1980's. Later they built a version using a twenty inch tire diameter, as this bike was pretty awkward to load up and take on the road as they did bicycle science demonstrations.
 
The upper counter-rotating wheels are in contact with the lower wheels and by friction, as well as having neglible tractive loading, maintain essentially equal but opposite rotational velocities. For the sake of the skeptics who still doubt, they have also conducted experiments where they have added extra mass to the upper tires thus giving the  experimental bikes a negative gyroscopic action!

I have always wondered about a way to actually measure and effect the gyroscopic forces of a motorcycle.

I teach with a former motorcycle cop and he was an instructor for police training before he retired.  On the Harleys they teach them to rev the engine to increase the gyroscopic force from the engine when they are performing tight exercises.

I don't feel it on my inline four.

Back on topic.

Practice quick stops until it becomes a habit.
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2006, 01:41:09 AM »

Quote from: Uncle Bob;9707
what speeds were you locking up the front on the track?

I don't really understand how you could even do it honestly.  Every race prepped bike I've ridden (very light with slicks) was incapable of locking up the front, the bike would endo no matter how hard and fast you grabbed the brakes.  Was this a street bike?

It was a 2002 ZX9, stock, running DOT Michelin H2's.  I first tried just grabbing as much brake as I could, but the front would twist the forks (at least that what it felt like.)  How I ended up doing it was squeezing the brakes to get the weight transfer and then quickly giving it as much as I could.  When the tire started squealing, I just gave it more and it would lock.  I'd let the brake out a little and get the front back.  

We were hitting anywhere from 90 to 120mph depending on how well we got out of the prior sequence of corners.

If you didn't get into the brake fast enough, the rear would lift..quickly.  The key was getting to maximum braking as quickly as possible.  If he saw you with the rear of your bike in the air close to turn in, he would pull you off and make you follow a control rider.

I don't know exactly why, but the control riders (who were all club racers) could outbrake almost everyone without their rear tires lifting a bit.  Meanwhile, there where people who were routinely getting their rear off the ground and not slowing as quickly.

My experience is gripping the tank with all you have and not popping up on the bike to brake helps to keep the rear down (just watch out hitting your helmet on the windscreen.)  I literally cut 30% off my stopping distance working with this guy, and I practiced quick stops routinely and thought I was pretty good.

Of course, after he taught us how to stop, he had us ride the course without using the brakes at all (like Keith Code's school.)  

For practicing on the street, I think the key is to keep your elbows bent and practice gradually increasing your braking force as you get comfortable.  If you aren't comfortable and efficient with your braking, I don't think it will easily become a habit.  (Although some argue that to learn a skill that will be used in instances of extreme adrenaline, you need to practice in instances of extreme adrenaline.  That could be true, but I don't think many people are going to go out and intentionally scare themselves silly on a routine basis.)
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