It Was Never Buell That Was The Problem

[Rogue]

Anyone who looked at the sales numbers and growth knew this from the gitgo.

I guess H-D CEO just didn't bother looking.

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/613546.html?1296072676

[Gary B.]

I believe the numbers surged as soon as it was announced they were closing. I personally know of 3 Buells that were sold just 'cuz their days were numbered. JMHO...

[Rogue]

BAck in 09 someone posted up data on Buell sales trend.  It had steadily increased from year to year and there was a surge when the Lightning and Ulyses were released.

My point is that the shutdown was no based on sales performance.

[bomber]

Likely true -- the shutdown had all the earmarks of a corporate panic attack (anyone that's seen one will recognize others) . . . . . . it's too bad, but I'm not a stockholder, and no longer have a dog in this hunt, so I'll wish HDI well, and hope they get some leadership.

[Gary B.]

My point is that the shutdown was no based on sales performance.

I believe you are correct.
I, for one, am in the camp that says Harley believes it can sell overpriced, outdated product to the same public forever. So far, they're right. Buell was to them like kites are to Boeing. Just a market they don't need to get involved with.

[Rincewind]

Erik is almost ready to hit the road with his new production bikes.  I believe next month marks the end of the non-competition clause with HD.  He is getting his EPA testing done and prepping his production bike runs.

Maybe his divorce from HD will be a blessing in retrospect.  I couldn't tell what was going on in that BWB thread....  was there a chart or graph that I missed?

[bomber]

yep -- the chart illustrated a great march downward for HD sales while Buell sales held steady or increased, over the last 5/6 years.

no reall eye opening news, but still, a bit depressing to realize the HDI and Chevy are synonyms, as far as management smarts are concerned.

[Rogue]

Buell was to them like kites are to Boeing. Just a market they don't need to get involved with.

Well, that may be how they thought of it but it was more like:  Buell was to H-D like Multi-Role Fighters are to Boeing (who likes to build big, heavy, airliners and cargo planes).  

Buell's bike so outperformed any H-D bike, it wasn't even funny--even when they used H-D type engines!  

[Rogue]

....a bit depressing to realize the HDI and Chevy are synonyms, as far as management smarts are concerned.

I have to disagree with you because Chevy is capable of making great cars.  Just not across the board!  

Chevrolet can make world class high performance cars and trucks.

H-D can't make world class high performance bikes without help from outside.  It was always Buell helping them and providing them with the expertise to make their engines peform.

[2DFlyer]

Erik is almost ready to hit the road with his new production bikes.  Maybe his divorce from HD will be a blessing in retrospect.

With HD owning all the patents and rights to the Buell name what of all the trick stuff developed under his watch will he be able to use and what WILL they be named?  Pegasus?

[Baz]

If I recall, the Harley CEO quoted profit margin on Buell cycles was the reason for pulling the plug.

Big fat cruisers made them more money per unit sold. (A whole lot more) and they decided to concentrate their efforts on what they knew best. (You can't say this was a bad strategy seeing the mess they were in) This is also why they gave back MV Agusta.

When you have key shareholders pounding their fists on your desk asking about poor returns, loyalty will wear rather thin.

Of course you could debate to death that they did not provide Buell the proper support, etc. for it's demise.

[Joey Stalin]

what am i supposed to be looking at, a link to a thread on another forum discussing buell?

[Gary B.]

Well, that may be how they thought of it but it was more like:  Buell was to H-D like Multi-Role Fighters are to Boeing (who likes to build big, heavy, airliners and cargo planes).  

Even better!!

[Rogue]

If I recall, the Harley CEO quoted profit margin on Buell cycles was the reason for pulling the plug.

Big fat cruisers made them more money per unit sold. (A whole lot more) and they decided to concentrate their efforts on what they knew best. (You can't say this was a bad strategy seeing the mess they were in) This is also why they gave back MV Agusta.

That is all true.  The margins on the cruisers were really good.

But the biggest bleeding wound H-D had was their finance division, which was loosing money because they gave out so many bad loans to push the sales number up.  In addition, fat margins mean nothing if you are throwing away your future because you can't attract a younger customer base.  

I remember reading an article about the first week of H-D's new CEO.  His first question was:  Why do we have Buell?  Erik didn't make  new friends within the Motor Company either.  I don't blame him.  I didn't make any new friends at ANY of the H-D/Buell dealers I have ever gone to either!  

[Rogue]

With HD owning all the patents and rights to the Buell name what of all the trick stuff developed under his watch will he be able to use and what WILL they be named?  Pegasus?

Erik Buell Racing is the name of the company.  They have been up and running for a while now.  "EBR" for short.

EBR sells a few "offroad only" parts for legacy Buell models, and they also sell "Race Only" 1125R's and 1190R as well as parts for them.  If EBR is successful in bringing a new street model to market, the brand will be that.  You don't need the name and the patents....you just need the man behind the product.  

There is no other brand today that represents the hopes and dreams of one man.  There is no committee, it's just Erik.  The only source of weaknesses his bikes had was when H-D pulled strings and tied Erik's hands behind his back.  

[Brad1445]

That chart was crap, the scale is so far off it is misleading.  It also does not show that the best selling Buell was the lightning the second was the Ulysses and the newest bike was a huge nightmare with bad press.

If Buell had pride he would have quit rather than produce crap. Read all of Eriks interviews his vision changes to protect himself.  He could have quit to make a statement before releasing crappy bikes.

[atadaskew]

Where would the new Buells that Erik Buell is about to release be sold?

So many 'regular' dealerships have gone belly up, so who is going to carry them?  I don't see any HD dealers doing that.

For the product to succeed it needs a dealer base.

[Roadscum]

Why beat the dead horse?? Ya gotta make a profit to be in business, no??

[custodian]

Where would the new Buells that Erik Buell is about to release be sold?

So many 'regular' dealerships have gone belly up, so who is going to carry them?  I don't see any HD dealers doing that.

For the product to succeed it needs a dealer base.

I was betting on the BRP/Can-Am network... but no further news about the relationship has come up.

[st2sam]

I just got a brain storm.
No dealers, sold entirely over the internet, even parts.  
Every bike comes with a complete shop manual, disk and paper.
The one year warranty would include parts only. You mail part you think is defective, they send you new part and reimburse for shipping if part is defective.
I would rather do my own work, good technicians in my area are hard to find.  
IMO - most people who would agree to this type warranty will or should be mechanically able to be a parts changer.
Think about it, it just might work.
 

Is it spring yet!  

[Gary B.]

I just got a brain storm.
No dealers, sold entirely over the internet, even parts.  
Every bike comes with a complete shop manual, disk and paper.
The one year warranty would include parts only. You mail part you think is defective, they send you new part and reimburse for shipping if part is defective.
I would rather do my own work, good technicians in my area are hard to find.  
IMO - most people who would agree to this type warranty will or should be mechanically able to be a parts changer.
Think about it, it just might work.
 

Is it spring yet!  

You might be on to something, but what does the customer who's NOT mechanically inclined do? There are plenty of other products sold on the 'net that don't have "dealers".

[Kootenanny]

Likely true -- the shutdown had all the earmarks of a corporate panic attack (anyone that's seen one will recognize others) . . . . . . it's too bad, but I'm not a stockholder, and no longer have a dog in this hunt, so I'll wish HDI well, and hope they get some leadership.

More like a new CEO using the panic in the market to push through his own agenda, from what I've read.  But yeah, basically a panic attack...

But, while I too hope H-D gets some leadership, I'm not holding my breath...and I really don't care if they do well or not, I'll certainly never buy a H-D product now.

[st2sam]

You might be on to something, but what does the customer who's NOT mechanically inclined do? There are plenty of other products sold on the 'net that don't have "dealers".

Hopefully the NOT mechanically inclined won't purchase this bike for that reason.
It possably could work with good phone, internet (24/7) and maybe a live tech or two available during business hours.
The bike would be shipped boxed and crated to your door with set up instructions. I think that would be neat, not for everyone but a cheap way to get started and get bikes rolling off the production line.

[Kootenanny]

Why beat the dead horse?? Ya gotta make a profit to be in business, no??

What this thread is all about...Buell WAS making a profit, and growing faster than H-D itself, yet H-D management still decided to pull the plug.  It's not like Buell was failing.

[Rogue]

Koot, I read the full article in Cycle World about Buell's demise at H-D.  The article was written by an insider who worked for Buell (not EB) who had connections within H-D.  It was very detailed and he/she went through each model's and engine development hurdles.  A real eye opener.

The decision by H-D to stick with the original 1200 Sportster Bore and Stroke to maintain the legacy of the Sportster, which worked against Buell's original design of a more oversquare engine that could rev near 9k RPM.  Buell had to agree to that, which came to haunt the company later when testers complained about the low redline of the Thunderstorm engine (7k RPM).  That also put the price of the XB9R well above the market because that engine, which had the more rev-friendly bore/stroke, could not be manufactured side by side with the 1203 engine and save costs.  A great example of H-D meddling that compromised Buell at every turn.

Another example was H-D refusal to put full fairings on Buell's to avoid "direct" competition from the Japanese.  H-D was deftly afraid of Japan!  This forced Buell to be "creative" in covering their sportbikes below the beltline.  The one that was really disappointing was the XB12R Diablo, which was a turbocharged XB12R.  According to Buell, 130 bhp and over 100 ft. lbs. of torque, with greater reliability than the N.A. 1203.  Wow!  What I would have done for that bike!  

Overall, it was H-D fears and constant meddling that compromised Buell at every turn.  It's amazing Buell got things done with what little they had.

[Kootenanny]

It's amazing Buell got things done with what little they had.

Yes, I understand all that.  But, get things done they did...I really like my XB9R.  In the end, though, H-D just up and shut 'er down, no real reasons ever given...I do believe Keith Wandell had it in for Buell right from the day he was hired on.  He didn't ride, but had mental images of himself astride a Fat Boy--definitely NOT a Firebolt--I don't believe he had any understanding of Buell, their design philosophy, or their place in the market.  To him, they were just a small division that was easily sacrificed (to the tune of $125 million...).

[atadaskew]

I do believe Keith Wandell had it in for Buell right from the day he was hired on.  He didn't ride, but had mental images of himself astride a Fat Boy

Yup, Wandell is the CEO version of Rajflyboy  - they both don't ride, they both don't have bikes but they both have opinions about bikes.

[Brad1445]

 "Anonymous" on Badweb said this "THE BIKE LOOKS EXACTLY THE WAY WE WANT IT TOO" it was the reality of many years of dreams and planning.

I don't believe the bike looks the way it does do to HD restrictions as Eric was bragging so much in 2008 that this was his dream bike.

But for the sake of argument lets say they were not allowed a Fairing.

Why no chin fairing suck as the XB's?

Why the pods?  Many bikes have split radiators but don't looks so odd and out of place.

Why the odd proportioned top fairing?  Far from naked its the size of a Buick.

Why did none of the new parts follow any lines or styling themes of the carry over XB parts?

The 1125 may have been a cool idea in the 1980's when he first drew it on a napkin, but like the Delorean if you take to much time to bring it to market the changing market forces may leave your 20 year dream in the dust.

Why does HD not get any credit for allowing the development of the XB bikes and the continues improvement that followed.