Ahhh Gotta Stop!

[hobbner]

  Caught a late yellow light in town at a huge intersection, Didnt want to run it through red so I had to stomp on the brakes really good.  50 mph to 0 decelleration, at about 25 or so my rear tire locked and chirped, I felt it shimy side to side. I let pressure off the rear got things spinning and everything was good.  Except I was scared the rest of the day and lost a good portion of confidence...maybe something i need anyways as I am learning.

My question.
I ride mountain bikes all the time, Ive always been heavy on the back brakes and putting my weight way back when stopping to counter the transfer of weight...I like to go easy on the front brake on the MTB as it would let me steer easier and also I could slide the pedal bike to the side around whatever im slamming my brakes about.  My street bike weighs 300 pounds, my mountain bike 10 so physics are a bit different here.. I have found that this has given me two habits.
One whenever i go in to brake I am grabbing and holding the clutch at the same time is this bad?
Two... Ive got to convince myself that I can trust my front brake more...because I dont Im horribly afraid of locking it up or doing an endo or something to that effect. I know that in the manual for the state learners liscence it says that if the rear wheel is locked in an emergency stop that you should leave it locked until stopped...It also states that experinced riders 'can unlock the wheel' but must do it when the rear is straight...How straigt does it need to be?
Any pointers or advice on emergency braking would be great!

[ctfz1]

You should know 75 % or more braking is front wheel. That's where they put large dual disks and fancy calapers. Light short wheel base machines can do stoppies (rear wheel in the air), any bike can become tail light, easy rear lock. You need to practice emergency stops on the front brake till you're comfortable with the feel. Would be worth taking intro or ARC track course. I know I can chirp the front wheel and let off near lock up all way to stop, not world greatest rider, experience and practice.

[HipGnosis]

 Gotta PRACTICE!!

 Emergency stops are something you should practice regularly.  Each bike, tire, road surface is a little different.  Practice stopping straight and in a gentle turn.

 Nothing wrong with pulling the clutch.

 Watch some videos of squids doing 'stoppies' to get some appreciation of the capabilities of modern brakes and tires.

 I'm pretty sure Mtn bikers lean back when braking so they don't go over the handlebars.  The rider is the center of mass.  Totally different on a M/C.  Weight to the front is a good thing as it helps the tires friction on the road.  Even if it lets the rear tire chirp or skid.

 I like to skid my rear tire when scooting around city intersections when my rear tire is nearing the end of it's mileage.  Making it fun takes all the scare or worry out of it.


 

[MK96xj]

What you did by letting off and reappling was correct. If you stay on a locked up rear as suggested in the manual your referred too, the rear can get real squirlly. If it lock let off and reapply. this is esentially ABS' theory. Trust the front brake. It will take ALOT of it before the rear comes off the ground.

[Stray Cat]

What you did by letting off and reappling was correct. If you stay on a locked up rear as suggested in the manual your referred too, the rear can get real squirlly. If it lock let off and reapply. this is esentially ABS' theory. Trust the front brake. It will take ALOT of it before the rear comes off the ground.

I can't disagree more! Unlocking the rear is bad, bad  bad. That is the quickest way to a high side! If you do get the bike even a little sideways and let off the rear, the action of the bike straighting up is going to toss you off faster then you can say WTF?
Take a MSF course, read any street survival riding book and they will say the same thing. If you lock the rear, keep it locked!
ABS works this way, but it's so fast (dozens or cycles a second) that there is little chance of total lockup and getting the bike sideways.
To the OP. If you haven't yet taken the MSF course, I highly suggest that you do this!

[Windblown]

1) Learn to trust your front brake!   Rear brakes are for dirt, front brakes are for asphalt.  Some bikes wilh painfully weak front brakes will stop a little quicker with application of both. (My Concours comes to mind) But on the other hand I haven't ever used the rear brake on the R6 unless I'm in the grass and it gets maximum threshold braking practice repeatedly at every trackday I can afford to attend.

2) My take on rear brake lock-up (Besides not using it if at all possible) If you lock up the rear brake and the bike steps out bad then let the bike turn into the slide till things get straightened up before letting the rear brake unlock.  If the bikes rear doesn't come back around and line up with your direction of travel and you therefore have to keep the rear locked you may lowside, but that beats the heck out of a bone snapping high-side.

[hobbner]

yeah my gut told me something was wrong with the idaho motorcycle manual. Its interesting how when you get into a tight situation and your in a panic how instinct takes over and you disregard much of what you have ever read and do what 'feels right'..something that im both happy about...and scared about.
What about downshifting and engine braking yes/no?
I would love to do some advanced courses but there simply isnt much around here. we do have the MSF and I plan to take it, but I dont want to drop my bike! And track days....what track? Where? This is Idaho land of miles and miles of farmroads but no track for about 4 hours.

[Stray Cat]

Hobbner, the manual is correct. Leave it locked. You would surprised just how little it takes to high side you right off the bike.
Engine braking is not effective at all. All it's going to do is cause the rear to lock up. Getting off the throttle in mid corner is bad for the same reason. Roll on the throttle all the way through the corner. Jumping off the thottle mid corner is the second fastest way to a high side.
Please... take a MSF course! They have been teaching this stuff for decades and really do know what they are doing. There are many reasons (physical) as to why you do things on a motorcycle that may seem counter intuitive, but they will save your butt. Learn the correct proceedures and practice them as if your life depends on it. Because it does!

[Windblown]

What about downshifting and engine braking yes/no?

I use engine braking at times on the street but not for panic stops. For panic stops my procedure is as follows:

Pull in clutch and pull front brake to get the weight shifted to the front tire.
Squeeze the hell out of the front brake while tapping down thru the gears (clutch remains pulled in).
Look for an escape path. If one presents itself then let off brake, let off clutch (smoothly) and power into the clear zone.

The reason you want to get into the habit of downshifting thru the gears as you are slowing is so that the bike is ready to accelerate back out immediatly.  This can be important if there is someone behind you that wasn't paying attention either. Not much fun to manage to avoid hitting something just to have the next guy back give you an A$$packing.  

[MK96xj]

S Cat,

staying on the break is situation dependant. It worked for hobbner in his situation obviously with no high side. If the skid was more extreme and the ass end starts to come around i would agree with holding on the break as you are already commited. A manual alone is not going to teach you to ride and is not bible. Hobbner did good and acted accordingly. Which is why he is writing to tell about it and not a different subject post.

[Stray Cat]

S Cat,

staying on the break is situation dependant. It worked for hobbner in his situation obviously with no high side. If the skid was more extreme and the ass end starts to come around i would agree with holding on the break as you are already commited. A manual alone is not going to teach you to ride and is not bible. Hobbner did good and acted accordingly. Which is why he is writing to tell about it and not a different subject post.

So how do you explain to a new rider this concept of situational dependancy and how much can you hang it out and still recover? Of course there is no one answer for all situations and riders skills and bikes. So, the only answer that really applies to all situtations is to leave it locked.
Have you ever taken an MSF course? I would guess not from your response. They rider coaches are very adament about this.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to berate anyone for offering advise. Only point out that through years and years of experianced riding and education the rider coaches have all come to the same conclusion. To avoid making a bad situation worse, leave it locked.
Yep, Hobbner didn't suffer any adverse effects in this situation, but time and time again riders that get into the same situation don't fair as well. Next time he might not be so lucky. Obviously not locking the rear is the best case scenerio, but once that has happened leaving the rear locked poses virtually zero additional hazard, while unlocking usually results in a high side especially at higher speeds.

[Windblown]

I highly recomend MSF basic and advanced.  MSF didn't exist when I started riding but I took the ERC course year before last and may take it again at some point.  What is taught is good advice and should be mastered without having to think about it. But once those techniques are mastered I firmly believe that technique can, and should, be tweaked.

MSF teaches riders to use the rear brake and it's good to learn how to use it without locking it up.  MSF teaches to never unlock a rear brake once it locks. MSF teaches to always use 4 fingers on the front brake. That's good general advice to live by till you know when more advanced techniques might work better, or when it might not apply as well to your particular bike.

 

[photomd]

Why are you afraid of your front brake: motorcycle or moutain bike.

I recently bought a moutain bike for two reason: to rehab my knee (torn ligment from riding the CR) and to ride with my son. On asphalt I can lock the front tire and not do a stoppie if I put my butt behind the seat. To do a stoppie I just lean forward (butt in front of the seat) and hit the front brakes. The rear end comes right up. I sorta get a kick outta doing these. On good grass it's pretty similar on the dirt bike: slide as far forward as possible, hit the front brakes to compress the front and squeeze a little more to get the rear end up.

My point is you need to learn to use the front brake in conditions with varying traction. Pay attention to the front. As you approach lock up, you'll feel the front get vague and the compressed suspension snap back. I'm amazed at how many people that ride the local MX tracks never touch the front brake. With good tires, street or dirt, your front brake is the best one to stop you: depending on wheelbase, it's 60% or more of your stopping power.

Also learn to use the rear...that last 40% is pretty important. As for what you do with a locked rear wheel, it depends on your experience and comfort level. If it's still pretty much in line, I'll let off the brakes and re-apply. However I do this intentionally all the time on the CR, so I'm pretty comfortable with what I can get a way with. As with most things it just takes practice.

I think a moutain bike is a great tool to play with brakes. It's light, speed is much less and it behaves pretty similar. I did switch my cables so my front brake is on my right hand and did find it easier to modulate. You also ride it in lots of different environments with varying traction...a good way to learn what the front brake can do.  

[hobbner]

Ive got to say that reading through the forums has been one of the best things for me.  1. I read about others wipeouts and see the pictures, that keeps me from getting a little over zealous on the throttle. I try to read a scary story before every ride to remind myself its for reals out there  2.  Its nice to hear different perspectives on techniques on what works what doesn't. Ill keep in mind the advice about 'if' i lock the brakes... keep them locked up at the highspeeds.  

As for the front brakes I am working on getting more confident in them.  I have had some really bad endos in the past on a mountain bike with the front brake on trails and have always rode the front 40 percent the back 60.  Not a good combination for the bikes.  

So What about Brake Balance, Lets say im coming to a full stop and I have my brakes at 50-50 front and back (obviously not an ideal combination from our discussion so just...Hypothetically speaking), If I 'increase' pressure on the front brake could i risk locking up the back brake as the tire now has less weight and pressure trying to push it forward? Or vicea versa, If I am afraid of locking the front would letting some pressure off the back keep the front spinning as more 'stopping job' is pushed forward.  and allow me stop faster? Obviously the best situation in either case would be to modulate the wheel causing you concern, but Im curious.

Im starting to think I need to find myself a cheap old 50 cc something dirt bike like a honda trail and start practicing some techniques I would rather not do on my beeaaauuuutiful bike :-)

I know im quite the Noob, please feel free to throw anything of your choice at me!

[bsd43]

I think you really need to get in your head that even though there are common elements, a motorcycle does NOT act like a bicycle. You are 90% of the weight in a top-heavy bicyclist+bicycle combination, while more like 25% of the weight in a motorcyclist+GS500 combo. Plus there is a nice suspension system in the forks with fluid dampening to absorb a lot of the forces before you would go flying.

You just gotta practice practice practice, starting with front brake ONLY, in a parking lot and starting at maybe 25mph, to see that you CAN stop pretty damn quickly without endo-ing in a motorcycling, and build your confidence from there. The risk of high-siding is too great to not learn that you must trust your front brakes.

Please take the MSF class if you can, and also read David Hough's original Proficient Motorcycling book.

[Stray Cat]

There really isn't any danger of doing an endo, especially on GS 500. Which BTW is an excellent choice for a first bike  
Now to make your second excellent choice and get you're butt into a MSF course. Not to sound like a broken record, but it will be the best investment in your riding craft that you will ever make. They will teach you the proper technique and you can build on that in everyday practice. You ride course provided bikes in the 100 to 250cc class and they will really critique you and give you solid skills to build on. Learn right to begain with so you don't have bad habits to overcome down the road.

To answer your questions, yes as you increase front braking you will transfer weight up front and in turn increase the risk of locking the the rear. This is why you need to practice some quick stops. Once again, the MSF course will provide you with lot's of great techniques to practice and keep your skills sharp.

Emergency braking and proper non emergency braking are just two of the dozens of things you will learn to improve your riding. Many of these things will keep you out of situations that may required emergency braking. An ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure  

[hobbner]

Yes, promise I will be taking the MSF class as soon as I can here in Idaho (sometime in May) in the mean time though thanks for everyones help in making sure I dont have TOO many bad habits by the time I get there! This GS is my second bike my first was an old 76 honda CB400 It wasnt in the best of shape throttle would get stuck, old drum brakes on the back, tires would wobble..on and on...sure was pretty though! Anyways I never did much more than commute because I simply didnt trust it. I have something I trust for some long rides and higherspeeds, but ive learned there is a lot more physics coming into play above forty miles an hour!

[photomd]

Obviously bsd and I disagree on the mountain bike thing...here's my take. My mountain bike with a very basic front suspension acts very similar to my motorcycles, but it's harder to modulate the brake. The rim brakes are much more on/off than a disc. Also when things happen on the mountain bike, they happen pretty quickly...faster than the dirt bike at relative speeds. However, go 45mph into a berm on the dirtbike and things occur pretty quickly.   I don't do stoppies/wheelie's on my street bikes.

As has been stated, going to parking lot and practicing with just the back brake starting with a little braking and increasing to lock up, then doing the same exercise with the front will teach you a lot about what brake does what. How far you push the front brake is up to you.

As I've said before, you can lock the front and not go down. I do this a lot on my dirtbike. On a mountain bike, I'll peddle up to about 5-7 mph on loose sand/dirt, even my weight on the peddles and lock the front. If you have a suspension, you'll feel it extend as the front looses traction and front gets a vague/light feeling. The  trick is to not put any input into the bars and to steer/balance with your feet. I do the same thing on the dirtbike. On the mountain bike I can only do it for several feet because the vehicle is so light and I'm so high and I can't peddle and do this. But on the CR, 50 feet is pretty easy on level ground with a locked front end. I do think you'll learn a lot by doing this on a mountain bike.

As for using your front brake, bike or motorcycle, it depends. If I'm going down a steep descent on my bicycle with good grass/traction, I might feather the front, but I'll probably leave it alone depending the speed. If I'm on my motorcycle in the wet (the one without ABS), I'll feather the front and use more rear in relation to my usual technique. Again, nothing replaces practice. The mountain bike will give you a feel for what's going on, but practicing on the GS will get you the best results.

Also, IMHO, a dirt bike sliding around is a great way to learn how it feels. And don't worry about being a noob...we all started there. Have fun and be safe.  

[cbsnbiker]

Yes, promise I will be taking the MSF class as soon as I can here in Idaho (sometime in May) in the mean time though thanks for everyones help in making sure I dont have TOO many bad habits by the time I get there! This GS is my second bike my first was an old 76 honda CB400 It wasnt in the best of shape throttle would get stuck, old drum brakes on the back, tires would wobble..on and on...sure was pretty though! Anyways I never did much more than commute because I simply didnt trust it. I have something I trust for some long rides and higherspeeds, but ive learned there is a lot more physics coming into play above forty miles an hour!

The MSF course (or equvalent--Idaho may use another curriculum) will help you out tremendously. I can recommend that you use more front brake and less rear brake, but learning this stuff in a controlled environment with a coach who can give you constructive input as it happens will help you tremendously.

As for what to do about a locked rear brake, the best is not to lock it in the first place.   Overuse of the rear brake is a common error amongst novices and untrained riders.

But you lock the rear brake while you're riding on pavement, the best course of action, especially for novices, is to keep it locked and brake to a stop. If you unlock it at the wrong moment--basically, if the rear wheel isn't aligned with the front wheel--that can induce a high side crash. That's ugly and painful.

Others have observed that it is possible to unlock a locked rear brake if done properly. They're right. However, those three last words are critical: "if done properly." If done improperly, you can highside. Ouch. So, if in doubt, keep a rear wheel locked and bring the bike to a stop.

(Different rules apply for dirt riding, due to lower traction.)

I bet you'll feel much happier and more confident after taking the MSF (or equivalent) course. I hope it's soon!

[hobbes]

Forget the rear brake completely.

Seriously.

Yes I said it. FORGET THE REAR BRAKE COMPLETELY.

From this thread and the others you have started you are young, inexperience, but very willing to learn. I was the same just a few years ago, and I'm still learning a lot every day. Please forget about the rear brake for the time being. Even now, I use the rear brake only sparingly.

My reasoning is this: You're trying to learn the proper trust in the front brake and how the bike handles with the combination of both the front and the rear. You're also trying to learn how to ride a motorcycle with the most basic of competent skills. The front brake is INSTRUMENTALLY important in panic stops and emergency situations, while the rear brake is not so much. Learn how to ride the bike using the front brake only while you learn simply how to ride well at the same time. In a few months or a year you can always bring in the rear brake and learn how to control it, but only after you have mastered being skillfull controlling the motorcycle, and braking with the front.

You're asking yourself to handle too much right now, when maybe prioritizing things might be your best bet. Also, MSF is your friend. TAKE IT!!! It's never too early.