More "RCMP losing my respect"

[Kootenanny]

I started a thread a couple of years ago about how the RCMP were losing my respect, due to some questionable activities by RCMP members followed by upper level coverups.

Well, little has happened during those two years to regain any of my respect for the Mounties.

There was that little incident in Vernon, where a suspect was kicked in the face for no discernable reason, while complying with the police's orders to get down on his hands and knees--again, an incident which might never have been known to the public except that it was filmed by a passerby with a camera.  http://www.monctonforums.com/index.php?topic=2865.0

Now, I hear about an RCMP officer losing a day's pay because he failed to properly follow up on a 911 call reporting shots fired in 2008.  He simply cruised through the neighbourhood in his car, didn't see anything, so he left--leaving a woman tied to a chair and shot to die over the course of the next four days.  In that last thread, someone made the comment that the same public that is so ready to vilify the police when they make a mistake are still quick to call when they need help--but this begs the question, why bother calling when this is the kind of response we get?  Yes, I know a lot of 911 calls are unfounded, but that doesn't mean the police should have the discretion to ignore a call just because they feel like it...

Oh, and the next news article after the one I just mentioned was about a firefighter who drove a firetruck to an emergency while his license was suspended.  The cops were gonna be sure to "fully investigate" the incident.  So, they're gonna spend men and materiel on this, but when someone calls in with reports of shots fired in a residential neighbourhood, all they get is one guy in a cruiser driving by with a doughnut in his mouth?  What, he expects the "bad guys" to run out and flag him down?  Geez...priorities...

[Formerly Known as Bigfoot]

FTP.

[andreychuk]

Here's my spin............
First off I agree they have been doing a less than stellar job at times, but....
Take a look at the manner in which they are forced to operate.
Everytime they turn around theres another inquiry, they can't do this, they can't do that.
They have to operate under a moving scale of rules.
Some criminal can't even get a decent sentence because of the existing legal system.
Take a look at Clayton Roueche, past president of the UN gang, the American justice system is dealing with him., because ours couldn't.
Now the entrance physical to the RCMP is the CPAT test, the only test that has not been succesfully challenged in the courts.
Because we want to be a more liberal society they basically had a "No white males apply" period of time.
I'm not trying to be rascist, I'm saying that they intentionally refused to accept a lot of good applicants.
Now when you see a cop, it may be a smaller person, not very intimidating.
I remember growing up in East Van, you didn't want the VPD "bulls" to catch you, they'd give you a beating and not charge you.
People would get in high speed chases to Burnaby so the RCMP would arrest you.
Another part of it I think is that with the media, they slant the story how they want.
We all know of examples where the full story isn't being told by the media.
I'm not saying Buddy Tavares, or Robert Dziekanski deserved what they got, far from it.
But unfortunately the officers involved didn't have a lot of experience, and made some HUGE mistakes.
As a society we seem to be showing the police a lot less respect, and until we start to have a bit more "fear", one part of the problem won't improve.
I've been a Fireman for over 20 yrs, and have 2 in laws that are RCMP, I'm glad I don't have their job.
Thanx for letting me vent.
Darren

[alphabet man]

I  have to agree with Darren and further to that if you consider all the interactions the RCMP have with the public country wide on a daily bases the ratio of proper procedure to fuc& ups is pretty darn good.  

just my $.02

 PS
Geoff did you get another speeding ticket?  

[spd2918]

Now, I hear about an RCMP officer losing a day's pay because he failed to properly follow up on a 911 call reporting shots fired in 2008.  He simply cruised through the neighbourhood in his car, didn't see anything, so he left--leaving a woman tied to a chair and shot to die over the course of the next four days.  In that last thread, someone made the comment that the same public that is so ready to vilify the police when they make a mistake are still quick to call when they need help--but this begs the question, why bother calling when this is the kind of response we get?  Yes, I know a lot of 911 calls are unfounded, but that doesn't mean the police should have the discretion to ignore a call just because they feel like it...

Great, another one of these fucking threads......



99.99% "Shots Fired" calls are fireworks.  You get a call, the area given by the caller is vague, so you drive around looking for anything out of place.  I don't know how else you expect the officers to do.  Should they kick in doors every time they get a fireworks call?

We had a guy that was drunk and got mad at his hand.  He had hurt it and lost his job over it.  So at 3am in the middle of the street of a residential neighborhood he decided to shoot his hand THREE TIMES with his .357.  No one called.  All the officers were handling bar close issues out of the area.  The guy walked to the station and put his bloody pulp of a hand on the station desk and asked us what the fuck we were going to do about it.

[Flyer]

I can't comment much on the RCMP, as we don't have much contact with them here, but the media haven't been flattering.  
Police, in general seem to show diminished respect for those they're sworn to protect in direct proportion to the respect shown to them.
Now, throw in a plethora of stupid, redundant and practically unenforceable laws and powers of summary enforcement by officers, and public respect is further diminished by Legislators.  
Further, exceedingly lenient sentences, "three-for-one" time served, and weekender sentencing (sign in on Friday night, go home, come back and sign out Sunday night), only serve to exasperate us all...
A return to a culture of professionalisim by the cops, and a degree of respect and empathy on our part would serve both entities well.

[Kootenanny]

 PS
Geoff did you get another speeding ticket?  

No, none for the last few years.

I just couldn't believe that a police officer would be so cavalier about a 911 "shots fired" call.  He never contacted the callers, although he had their address and they waited for him to show up.  He just drove through the area, didn't see anything amiss or hear any shots himself, so he buggered off.  This shows a callous disregard for the intentions of the 911 caller--now, I know not every 911 call is legit, but if we have the system in place and urge the public to use it, the police cannot then decide to ignore calls at random.  

andreychuk, so what's your take on the fireman who drove the truck to a call the day after his license had been suspended?  I mean, that's an offence under the driving laws, so the RCMP are going to "fully investigate" that incident, which means spending man-hours on it..However, I'll submit that someone calling in with a report of "shots fired in a residential area" represents a more immediate danger to the public than the above mentioned fireman, and if the RCMP actually are concerned with public safety, such calls should be properly investigated, which means spending more than a couple of minutes driving through the area.

Another comparison...the fireman, who did something stupid off duty (I have no idea what it was) and had his license suspended, then drove a firetruck the next day as part of his job without telling his superiors that he'd lost his license to drive...OK, that guy lost his job.  His actions (driving with a suspended license) didn't hurt anyone AFAIK, and wasn't really a dereliction of duty.  However, the cop whose lack of action led to him ignoring a crime he'd been told had been committed, and where, and allowed one person to suffer a gunshot wound for 4 days before dying, that guy loses one day's pay and gets a written reprimand.  What's wrong with this picture?

Ya see, I understand that stuff happens, and mistakes are made.  That's part of life, and I don't expect the police to be perfect.  But the RCMP have always had an image of honesty and integrity, and this image has engendered a huge amount of public respect for the organization.  This image, however, is eroding due to the actions of a few bad apples in uniform, and public respect is eroding with it.  Treating their officers as above the law that governs the rest of us does not help the organization maintain this image, either.  I certainly no longer have an image of the RCMP as an organization worthy of my respect.  

[birdrunner]

Mistakes happen.

What the issue for me is:  What are the RMCP doing about it?

In general:, Deny it, then saying the victim deserved it because he was a criminal, then giving the officers a slap on the wrist.

Case in point,  the Buddy Tavares thing.

Not only did he get kicked in the face for no reason, afterward the RCMP tried to smear him by accusing him of domestic violence.  (news to his wife btw).  

Even with a video of him getting kicked in the face,  the cop got suspended WITH PAY.  big fckn hairy deal.

I hope the cop gets charged with assault, and dismissed.

BTW,  Tavares spent 3 days in a holding cell,  I wonder how long the cop will?    ha ha ha, fat chance.

[Kootenanny]

Mistakes happen.

What the issue for me is:  What are the RMCP doing about it?

In generally, denying it, then saying the victem deserved it because he was a criminal, then giving the officers a slap on the wrist.

This is exactly my point, but made much more succinctly.  Thanks, bird!

[andreychuk]

Kootenanny, did the F/F have a license or not?
It seems that if we can make a rule sound stupid enough, we don't have to follow it.
At my place of employment we are now required to report ANY license suspension, doesn't matter if impacts the job or not.
You may be able to guess why this this occurred.
When we were being told about this by the HR chick, I asked her the following.....
So, I'm on holidays in Hawaii, I have a dead hooker in my rental car when I get an impaired, do I have to tell you about the hooker?
She didn't answer, but she did leave.

Birdrunner, in the labor law world it is worse to be suspended w/ pay, because if you were wrongly accused the employer can't be sued.

[Kootenanny]

Kootenanny, did the F/F have a license or not?

As I recall, his license had been suspended one evening (I don't know why, but I assume DUI or similar), and he drove the truck the next day; he did not report the suspension.

He lost his job.  Tough, but really...was what he did as "bad" as a police officer properly following up on a report of shots fired, or kicking a guy in the face just because you feel like it?  Or hell, tasering a guy to death for no reason?  Yet, what's happened to any of those RCMPO officers?

The difference is, the FD wants their members to toe the line, and is perhaps a bit overzealous, even, in enforcing their rules.  The RCMP, on the other hand, bend too far the other way, to protect their members no matter what they might have done.  I understand following protocol and not jumping to conclusions, but the RCMP never seem to want to get rid of their bad apples, even when other police agencies are recommending charges, etc.

[chomy]

 Geoff, if you dig a little deeper in to the 911 call you well find that the dispatcher did not forward all the information to the member and he was dispatched to a second priority call. That was in Stave Lake which is a fair distance from the first call.
 
Now I don't know the rest but I can speculate that the watch was short members and calls were stacked up with the members bouncing from call to call with little or no back up and no opportunity for the member to return to what appeared to be a nothing call to him at the time.  Shots fired calls are commen in all areas of BC including the city's and most times are nothing calls. People even call 911 to report shit on one side of town so they can then leave the bar drunk, jump in the car and drive home.
 
I well also add that if you follow the stats a bit you will see that the RCMP management throws it's people under the bus on a regular basis and do very little to defend the front line guys.
One other thing to remember is it is the largest police force in the country with people working in all areas,  

when you look at the numbers they are no worse or better than other forces in the country but are definitely the current whipping boy for the media.  Alphabet, Andreychuk, Birdrunner, Flyer and Speed 2918 are on the money here and Bigfoot seems to be in retirement mode.

OK guys that's my rant for today but it was a long night.

[Formerly Known as Bigfoot]

 Geoff, if you dig a little deeper in to the 911 call you well find that the dispatcher did not forward all the information to the member and he was dispatched to a second priority call. That was in Stave Lake which is a fair distance from the first call.
 
Now I don't know the rest but I can speculate that the watch was short members and calls were stacked up with the members bouncing from call to call with little or no back up and no opportunity for the member to return to what appeared to be a nothing call to him at the time.  Shots fired calls are commen in all areas of BC including the city's and most times are nothing calls. People even call 911 to report shit on one side of town so they can then leave the bar drunk, jump in the car and drive home.
 
I well also add that if you follow the stats a bit you will see that the RCMP management throws it's people under the bus on a regular basis and do very little to defend the front line guys.
One other thing to remember is it is the largest police force in the country with people working in all areas,  

when you look at the numbers they are no worse or better than other forces in the country but are definitely the current whipping boy for the media.  Alphabet, Andreychuk, Birdrunner, Flyer and Speed 2918 are on the money here and Bigfoot seems to be in retirement mode.

OK guys that's my rant for today but it was a long night.

This is no place for posting anything that flies in the face of cop bashing.  Let Koot has his fun.  

[Kootenanny]

This is no place for posting anything that flies in the face of cop bashing.  Let Koot has his fun.  

The thing is, I WANT to be able to respect the police.  The RCMP have a great history, and like many Canadians I've always been proud to have them.  But it seems that, every time one scandal dies down, another one erupts hard on its heels.

[Hardware]

 Geoff, if you dig a little deeper in to the 911 call you well find that the dispatcher did not forward all the information to the member and he was dispatched to a second priority call. That was in Stave Lake which is a fair distance from the first call.
 
Now I don't know the rest but I can speculate that the watch was short members and calls were stacked up with the members bouncing from call to call with little or no back up and no opportunity for the member to return to what appeared to be a nothing call to him at the time.  Shots fired calls are commen in all areas of BC including the city's and most times are nothing calls. People even call 911 to report shit on one side of town so they can then leave the bar drunk, jump in the car and drive home.
 
I well also add that if you follow the stats a bit you will see that the RCMP management throws it's people under the bus on a regular basis and do very little to defend the front line guys.
One other thing to remember is it is the largest police force in the country with people working in all areas,  

when you look at the numbers they are no worse or better than other forces in the country but are definitely the current whipping boy for the media.  Alphabet, Andreychuk, Birdrunner, Flyer and Speed 2918 are on the money here and Bigfoot seems to be in retirement mode.

OK guys that's my rant for today but it was a long night.

+1.

Koot has an anti-police agenda and apparently the RCMP needs to consult him on each and every call before they clear to ensure they've done everything to his standard.

[Formerly Known as Bigfoot]

This is no place for posting anything that flies in the face of cop bashing.  Let Koot has his fun.  

I never read anything about the story and apparently YOU didn't either.  How many officers are on this force?  My guess it's pretty damn large.  I would presume they go through a pretty extensive process before hiring anyone and I would presume the training they receive is pretty exhaustive.  But, even though this is all done they are still hiring human beings.  Humans being what we are will at times do stupid and unlawful  things.  I would like to believe that the vast majority of these officers are good honest hard working men and women who do the job expected of them.  I wish I knew how to stop the bad apples from applying and even more I wish I could perfect a system to keep them from making it through the process.  Until that happens expect to read stories about something officers having screwed up.  But keep in mind when you read those stories the media does not always get it right.  

[birdrunner]

hardware,   did you look at the video of Tavares?   There's no excuse.  It's obvious.  

The problem is the RCMP reverted to the form to the tazeing incident, and started a song and dance / good ol boys cover up.

They're losing respect because they refuse to own up to the screw up, not because mistakes happen.

No wonder the last RCMP commissioner was hated by them,  he came from outside the system and didn't believe in the "boys club" shit.

[Kootenanny]

I would like to believe that the vast majority of these officers are good honest hard working men and women who do the job expected of them.  I wish I knew how to stop the bad apples from applying and even more I wish I could perfect a system to keep them from making it through the process.  Until that happens expect to read stories about something officers having screwed up.  But keep in mind when you read those stories the media does not always get it right.  

I agree completely with this.  I understand that police officers are humans, and that mistakes are gonna be made (although, the two incidents I've commented on, involving Geoff Mantler and Mike White, are egregious actions that might be difficult to classify as "mistakes").

The problem is, as birdrunner so succinctly points out, that when these "mistakes" do occur, it seems that nothing is ever done about them.  The bad apples are identified, but the upper echelons of the RCMP don't seem to want to deal with it...all we ever hear about is "suspension with pay," blatant lies obviated by video evidence, and badmouthing of the victims.

BTW, I do not have "an anti-police agenda"--I just wish they'd do their job properly.  I don't post anything here I haven't read in reliable news reports, which are often posted long after the fact and the police have had lots of time to deal with it.  BTW, in the case of Geoff Mantler of the Kelowna RCMP, there was an outside police agency, the Abbotsford Police, brought in to investigate the incident, and they did recommend charges against Mantler.  What, the Abbotsford PD has an anti-police agenda, too?  (And to more fully illustrate my point, note that I still cannot find any news reports that Geoff Mantler has actually been charged with anything--what, several months now afterwards.  If I kicked someone in the face like that, I'm pretty sure I'd be been charged almost immediately.)

[chomy]

hardware,   did you look at the video of Tavares?   There's no excuse.  It's obvious.  

The problem is the RCMP reverted to the form to the tazeing incident, and started a song and dance / good ol boys cover up.

They're losing respect because they refuse to own up to the screw up, not because mistakes happen.

No wonder the last RCMP commissioner was hated by them,  he came from outside the system and didn't believe in the "boys club" shit.

OK lets look at this,

Point one, yes it is obvious in the video but what happened before that, what did the 911 caller report, how was the call dispatched, what information on Buddy did the members have and how was he reacting when they first tried to stop him.

Point 2,  Their is no old boys club here, the first news release from the police had the commanding officer saying that it was unjustified from what he observed.

Point 3, Losing respect is being caused by poor reporting practises by our media. They are fully aware that a investigation takes time and charges have to be reviewed and approved by Crown. This all takes time but the media prefers to make it look like a cover up because they don't get to look over the investigators or the Crowns shoulder. You would not want to be tried in the media and neither should anyone else.

Point 4, The last two commissioners did not support the front line members in any way, shape or form and neither one appeared to no anything about policing.

Point 5, It's a nice day out and my bike is insured. I am going riding, take care.

[Kootenanny]

Point one, yes it is obvious in the video but what happened before that, what did the 911 caller report, how was the call dispatched, what information on Buddy did the members have and how was he reacting when they first tried to stop him.

What could possibly have gone on before, or been reported by the 911 caller, that would make it OK to kick a guy in the face while complying with their instructions?

As for the media portrayal...yes, they tend to sensationalize things, but they seldom change the dates, and they don't make up the videos.  The fact is, had you or I kicked someone like that, and charges recommended, we'd be charged.  While I understand due process must be followed, the fact is that the Abbotsford police recommended charges quite quickly against Mantler, but to date I cannot find any evidence that he's ever actually been charged, over a month later.  

I am losing respect for the RCMP (as are many others, I'm sure), and yes it is due to events I see on the media.  And the events in question actually did happen, the media didn't invent them.