Sell me on the Norge

[dhunter]

I currently have an '06 V-Strom (the big one), and I am starting to think about replacing it with a bike that is a little more comfy two-up.  My riding is primarily commuting and weekend rides with my wife that are typically 300 - 400 mile cruises through Minnesota and Wisconsin.

I've been researching ST bikes, and like what I've read about the Norge.  I have two dealers in my area, one is small operation 50 miles to the north, the other is larger, about 45 miles to the south.  Both have leftover '08 and '09 Norges for $11k/$12k, the larger dealer has a used '07 with 17k miles for $8k. they also have a really nice looking '08 Breva Sport 1200 for $9k. Tempting prices, although that new 8V version sounds like a major upgrade...

I have not had a chance to get a test ride yet, I expect to within the next couple of weeks.  I'm hoping to find something that will improve the passenger space and comfort over my Vee. The Vee fits me fine, except i do feel a bit cramped when I have a passenger. I'm 5'11", about 230 lbs. My wife is 5'3", weight undisclosed (my guess, about 150).

 Any Norge (or Breva Sport) owners here care to share any feedback on their bikes for 2-up comfort?

[falcofred]

You should check out http://www.europeanmotorsportsinc.com/
They have brand new 08 Norges for $9995.
They are a long way from you in North Georgia, but it would make a neat trip to fly and ride

[Biking Sailor]

All I will say is that dealer set up is paramount!  I bought my 1200 Sport from Dave Richardson at MI, so the bike was set up right and it has been a pleasure to own.  I don't two up (wife rides her own bike) but have loaded it up and gone on several out of state trips and never felt overly fatigued after long days in the saddle (stock seat).  Great "sporty" road bike.

[atadaskew]

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,62691.0.html

[braindead]

All I will say is that dealer set up is paramount!  

???  Are these things made out of some mysterious nether that it requires the dealer to 'set up'??  I've never relied on any dealer to do anything right, so I go over everything anyway...  

Just wondering if there's some weird secret incantations that need to be done to guzzi's ;-)

[Orson]

given their quirky nature, mysterious nether seems to be an apt description.

an old hand, well-versed in their nuances can help ironing out the kinks.

but once they're sorted, anyone can work on a Guzzi  

[braindead]

given their quirky nature, mysterious nether seems to be an apt description.

an old hand, well-versed in their nuances can help ironing out the kinks.

but once they're sorted, anyone can work on a Guzzi  

Weird.. I really should get me a guzzi... and a duck... too I think ;-)

[dhunter]

I've been wondering about this "dealer set up" thing with MGs as well.  I've seen it mentioned several times on the interwebs, don't recall this being a concern for other makes.  Since the dealers are 45 - 50 miles from my home, This concerns me a bit. I plan on doing routine maintenance myself, but I really want to avoid having to run back and forth trying to work out the "quirks". What would I look for in a "proper set-up"?

[braindead]

Indeed..some specifics would be interesting.. it's a mechanical device, should obey the laws of physics and all...

Are they manually optimizing the fuel mapping?  

Adjusting the valves?

What exactly do they do??

found this on another site  (http://mgnoc.com/article_ask_the_wrench.html):

For another, Guzzi is obviously more aware of the need to properly adjust the clearance between the ignition pickup and its reluctor behind the cam sprocket, as Guzzi has recently introduced a series of shims for that purpose. I also think Guzzi dealers are now capable of a better setup job, ever since the factory service manual for 16M models revealed some very necessary and heretofore missing information.

Okay, so you need a manual and some shims...

[Dean]

I've been wondering about this "dealer set up" thing with MGs as well.  I've seen it mentioned several times on the interwebs, don't recall this being a concern for other makes.  Since the dealers are 45 - 50 miles from my home, This concerns me a bit. I plan on doing routine maintenance myself, but I really want to avoid having to run back and forth trying to work out the "quirks". What would I look for in a "proper set-up"?

Oh gee, most of us GUZZI owners have hundreds of miles to a dealer. BUT beware there are a lot of dealers who just sell the bikes and don't know $hit about them.

Let us know where you are and we'll be glad to hook you up with a dealer that is dedicated to the brand. These bikes ain't made for everyone. If you have doubts better off buying another brand. These things don't get broken in till after the first 10,000 miles, then they just keep getting better and better.


Dean

[Dean]

???  Are these things made out of some mysterious nether that it requires the dealer to 'set up'??  I've never relied on any dealer to do anything right, so I go over everything anyway...  

Just wondering if there's some weird secret incantations that need to be done to guzzi's ;-)

Better ask the Pope or Saint Carlo.  

Dean

[Roadscum]

I've been wondering about this "dealer set up" thing with MGs as well.  I've seen it mentioned several times on the interwebs, don't recall this being  a concern for other makes.  Since the dealers are 45 - 50 miles from my home, This concerns me a bit. I plan on doing routine maintenance myself, but I really want to avoid having to run back and forth trying to work out the "quirks". What would I look for in a "proper set-up"?

My experience....... way to many build errrors from the factory and inproper set up at the factory, TB synch, vavle adjust,. etc. Hell, even  the dealer I purched from was unable to use the diagnostic tool , he hadn't even applied for the password!!!

YES, purchase from one of the few VERY reputable dealer. You may pay a bit more but the bike will run as designed, be reliable, and save you a bunch of agravation. Just thinking about the BS experience I've had at my dealer makes me shutter. Oh yeah.... and he's 700 miles away!!

I've got an '08 Sport with a Norge  saddle, it's very comfy. I've also added Norge panniers and Mana bars to turn it into a very nice "Gentlemens Express".  

Regards, Paul

[mugwump58]

Let us know where you are and we'll be glad to hook you up with a dealer that is dedicated to the brand. These bikes ain't made for everyone. If you have doubts better off buying another brand. These things don't get broken in till after the first 10,000 miles, then they just keep getting better and better.


Dean

So where's the place to go from the central NY area?

[falconati]

Look decent, but have you considered a Stelvio  

[Pete Roper]

Just to answer a few questions on the setup.

Fact is most motorbike shops don't do much in the way of proper pre-delivery any more. Partly this is because most bikes come from the factory reasonably well set up but also there is the fact that when you are dealing with most modern bikes with in excess of 100Hp at the rear wheel it doesn'r reallly matter if they aren't tuned that well as most owners don't notice a lack of power and the 'new bike' factor will tend to make them blind to any failings.

Any of the older, 2 valve per cylinder, pushrod Guzzis makes about 76-80 Hp and their fuelling set-up is fairly critical. If incorrectly set up or if they are pushed out the door un-checked their can be issues with what people call 'Surging' and performance may be down. If its down by much on such a large, heavy bike with limited power available it is FAR more noticeable than it would be on say? A Tuono f'rinstance.

All the pushrod models eaquipped with the W5AM ECU come from the factory with the TPS set incorrectly. Why? I don't know, and we are never told whether there is a reason for this of if it is just that the tooling that programmes them at Marelli or wherever is calibrated wrong. Re-setting this is done electronically, you don't neccessarily need the factory tooling, (The Texa TXB Navigator system.) there are several other systems available that are simpler and considerably less costly but you DO need a tool and some way for it to interface with the ECU.

Also there are a LOT of people who should know better but don't working on FI bikes who think that FI works 'Just Like Carbs'. t doesn't. Especially on a system like the newer Guzzis where the idle and warm up is controlled by sensor input and a stepper motor throttle body ballance, although simple, is different from other machines not so equipped. The number of bikes I get through my workshop that have been screwed around with by idiots who claim to be 'Technicians' makes my blood boil.

The thing is that sorting out and setting up a modern Guzzi is neither hard or challenging but it DOES require a willingness to learn and a few tools that most laymen don't have in their shed/workshop. The VDSTS tuning ystem costs about the same a s a good set of wrenches, it is easy to use and much more intuitive than the Navigator but you need to have it if you ish to do your own service and tuning work.

Also most of the 2VPV models with the W5AM controller have had map upgrades and system patches released to improve their running and performance. Installing these is NOT a big deal but it does require that the bike be connected to Navigator and someone who KNOWS how to do it upload the new information via the tool from their PC or laptop. This ability to re-programme is the ONLY advantage tat the factory tooling has over something like VDSTS. Problem is that many of the 'Push-'em-out-the-door-and-forget-about-'em' shops who simply have 'Guzzi' above the door as another 'Brand' don't have someone who can drive the tool and more likely still will be terrified to plug it in for fear that if they press the wrong button they will wipe the map and cost themselves thousands of dollars, (You can do this but the tool goes off like the robot in 'Lost in Space', repeatedly asking if you *Really* want to do this! If you persist and wipe the map without allowing a new one to be uploaded you loose the ECU boot driver and the ECU is dead but you'd have to be a cretin to do so!) . Unfortunately many people will buy from the place where they see themselves getting the 'Best', ie 'Cheapest' deal. Invariably these same people are the ones who you will find complaining most bitterly about their Guzzi experience and who will be most villuable in 'Diss-ing' the brand.

The shame of it is if you buy from one of the good dealers, (And it seems ther numbers are growing!) what you pay will likely be very little more than if you buy from 'Vern the Rat Motorbikes' who most likely will drop Guzzi within a year, usually claiming they can't get parts or that information is too hard to get, (BS! Apart from their simplicity all the manuals and much more is available online at the Servicemotoguzzi site or even places like Guzzitech if you care to LOOK!!!!!)

Dealers with an excellent rep that immediately spring to mind are MPH in Houston, Rosefarm Classics in woodstock IL, Moto Intrnational in Seattle and Moto Nexus in Hendersonville NC are developing an excellent reputation. Larry Klein at GT Motors in Lansing MI is also 'Da-Biz'. and there have to be more, but ASK in the Guzzi community before seeking to buy. You'll soon find out who the 'Bad Guys' are!

FWIW my mate Chuck in Indianna is selling his Norge right now. It's a good-un. I sold him my V11 Scura RC and he's so smitten with it he wants another V11 at home, (The RC lives in So-Cal.) so the Norge has to go. i can put you in contact if you wish?

Pete

[coho]

MotoInternational has a fly & ride program where they pay your airfare to Seattle...

[Orson]

I've been wondering about this "dealer set up" thing with MGs as well.  I've seen it mentioned several times on the interwebs, don't recall this being a concern for other makes.  Since the dealers are 45 - 50 miles from my home, This concerns me a bit. I plan on doing routine maintenance myself, but I really want to avoid having to run back and forth trying to work out the "quirks". What would I look for in a "proper set-up"?

The Guzzi factory's quality control has been considered spotty.

That in conjunction with what Pete said about dealers who sell Guzzis with no knowledge of the bike, can lead to an unsatisfactory ownership experience.

A dealer who is dedicated to the brand, most likely a Guzzi-only dealer, will be more adept in catching any issues missed by the factory's quality control department.

If you have a low tolerance for quirks, then you would probably be happier with a Honda  

[dhunter]

Thanks for the feedback from you all, this is getting most interesting.  The closest dealer to me would be Leo's South in Lakeville, MN.  It's a pretty big dealership, they also sell BMW, Aprilia, Kaw, Suzuki, and a few others.  There are a couple of smaller dealerships in the state, Caswell Cycle in Mora, MN and Judson's in Lake Crystal. Neither are "dedicated" MG dealers, but they're not houses of twenty brands like Leo's is. When i go to any of these dealers, I'm definitely going to ask about their techs, tools, experience and set-up procedures.

Pete:  Thanks for the offer about your friend's Norge.  I'll keep it in mind. Perhaps i'll get back to you within the next couple of weeks after I look at these dealerships closer.

So, anybody have any opinions about the room and comfort of Norge two-up, especially compared to the Vee?

[Roadscum]

MotoInternational has a fly & ride program where they pay your airfare to Seattle...

Now that would be the way to go! Pick it up in Seattle head East, stop at another of the reputable dealer for the 1st service. maybe Rosefarm  in  Il or MPH in Tx.

Regards, Paul

[blackbuell]

dhunter,

Regarding 2-up comfort:

My '09 Norge is, by far, the most comfortable 2-up bike we have owned. It seems happy at 80 mph when fully loaded, and my wife and I feel fine in the saddle all day long. However, if you buy one with a top case, or if you decide to have one installed, make sure you and your wife check out the fit together. Depending on the type of trunk, there might not be enough room for the both of you. Our's has a Givi top case mounting bracket, and we have two different Givi trunks, a Monolock E370 and a E470, both with back rests installed. With the 37 liter case in place there is ample room for both of us, but with the E470 we are just a bit cramped---we are both small people (150 lbs & 120 lbs).

Good bikes--check 'em out!

Jon

[radlefty]

Not much I can add to what's been said. I've put 28,000 miles on my 07 Norge that I bought new in 08. It's been the best all around bike I've ever owned. Bought it from one of the good dealers and it was properly set up & ran great out of the box. The issue's I've had are warped brake rotors and a bad 02 sensor this year. I've taken it across country 4 times and wouldn't hesitate to take across country tommorrow. I don't want to dealer bash, but both Caswell's and Leo's have had mixed reviews over at the wildguzzi.com site.
I pesonally have had no dealings with Caswell. Didn't buy my bike from Leo's, but been there a couple of times. Mixed results for me.
I never ride 2 up, so not much to offer except it wouldn't work for me because I ride with my feet on the passenger pegs on the highway more often then not to keep my back stretched out. I've discovered that I really like being forward more, and just purchased an 07 Sprint that is more comfortable on my back & shoulders then I would have ever believed. I live in Mpls, so if you can't find a test ride, give me a shout & you can take mine out and see what you think.

[jdgretz]

My '07 recently cranked over 29,000 miles at the two year old mark (bought her new in '08) and is a very competent motorcycle.  If you dig around you'll see postings about upgrading the suspension, removing the center stand or at least cutting the stop way down, and the O2 Optimizer from GuzziTech.

As for 2-up - works good for me.  The wife has plenty of room in back but complains a bit about wind buffeting (she's 5'7").  When she's on the back I have the Givi E460 in place without the pad - her jacket (with padding) is all she needs to be comfy.  Fortunately she also rides so we do a lot of two-bike stuff.  I've got to get one of the larger windshields to try and see how that works for her.

jdg

[sempervee]

So, anybody have any opinions about the room and comfort of Norge two-up, especially compared to the Vee?

I have an 07 Norge and and an 07 DL1000 which I dearly love.  I also had an 05 FJR1300.  For passenger room the Norge wins hands down.
There is much more room it seems on the Norge when carrying a passenger than either the FJR or V-Strom.  My S/O rides her own bike and primarily rode the FJR but I have carried her on all three but the Norge is the most comfy of them all. No doubt.

I have owned many many different bikes over nearly 40 years of continual riding and I believe the MG Norge is one fine and elegant MC.

[crispiegee1]

 My S/O rides her own bike and primarily rode the FJR but I have carried her on all three but the Norge is the most comfy of them all. No doubt.

I'd love to have a significant other who likes to ride with me, but also has her own bike. Best of both worlds.  

[crispiegee1]

By the way, Dhunter, a Moto Guzzi won't sell you on itself. You have to sell yourself to the Guzzi.  

[Calabrese]

By the way, Dhunter, a Moto Guzzi won't sell you on itself. You have to sell yourself to the Guzzi.  

let me try.
Lets say you own a Guzzi and are traveling to a large rally and you stop for fuel along with the HD's, BMW's and the HD's wannabes and blah blah blah, who do you think that gorgeous, slender, athletic looking girl with legs up to here and the medium but well formed perky breasts out to there, is going to ask for instant sexual gratification behind the building. Not you, that's right, the other guys. This is why Guzzisti are free from sexual transmitted deceases and isn't that enough of a reason.
About when you get to the rally, and  everyone else is busy cleaning chains or replacing final drives or checking their bikes computers for the all important stats of consumptions, mileages, mpg's, averages, uppers and lowers temperatures ridden through and all the other very impotent stuff, while you sitting at the bar relaxed, having fun and absolutely sure that no one is going to steal your bike because everyone knows parts are no longer available and resale non existent.
What other brand offer all this standard? Case closed.  

Red is the fast color, next to black which is right after silver.    

[jsanford]

Weird.. I really should get me a guzzi... and a duck... too I think ;-)

Yes, you should.  

I'd say go take a test ride, with your wife.  I ride two-up with my 190-pound father on the smaller Breva without any issues other than keeping my feet clear.  Get a copy of "Guzziology" if you're not flying to Seattle (which, if you're looking to buy right now, I wouldn't recommend as it's still snowing in the mountains and we're having a Very Wet Spring).

The Guzzi community turn their own wrenches and know about the bikes. The "quirks" are well-known.

[Bowtie76]

absolutely sure that no one is going to steal your bike because everyone knows parts are no longer available and resale non existent.
What other brand offer all this standard? Case closed.  
  

TRIUMPH!