Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated...

[johnnyquest]

Finally back home after a 4 month stint in Palmdale Ca training for work. Nice to be back on the Guzzi again on a regular basis. I've been riding to work at Ft. Huachuca every chance I get (120 miles round trip), the only limiting factor being occasional days when the wind is gusting in excess of 40 mph. With more than 5k on the odo, the bike's running great. I still think the idle may be high and surging a bit when the clutch lever is in, but she runs so nice the rest of the time I'm hesitant to tinker with the tuning. The bike also seems to have a rough spot around 4000 rpm where the vibration is pretty intense...anyone else with the 1200 2v engine experience this? Just like the idle, I have mostly accepted this as "Italian character" and adjusted my riding style to stay above or below 4K. I also have discovered that I enjoy riding the bike without my hardbags much more than with, I put them on briefly the other day to take some additional stuff to work and noticed the bike felt light in the front and less willing to lean/turn, I have the rear preload set to the luggage setting but perhaps I need to dial it in more when I ride with the bags. I bought an Aerostich Courier bag for my commute which is fantastic, but when the monsoons kick off I'll need the hard bags for liners, rain pants, etc.

Now, the reason for my post today is I'd like some feedback from 1200 2v owners on the upcoming maintenance due at 6250 miles (10k km if I recall). I was looking at the maintenance manual and it seems to call for a lot of things that I wouldn't have expected since the 600 mile break in service. I expected an oil change and valve adjustment, as well as air filter and maybe throttle body sync if necessary,  but the fact that it calls for changing the transmission oil, final drive oil, fork oil, and even the fork seals is very surprising to me. Why on earth would you need to replace fork seals at 6000 miles?? I mean, if they're leaking then I can see changing them, but that seems like it would be a warranty item and not a service requirement. Anyways, I know this isn't necessarily a Guzzi Maintenance forum but this is the one I frequent and I know there's a lot of Guzzi experience here as well as many Norge and 1200 Sport owners. So, what do you think? Is the first service overkill? Should I stick to my gut feeling and just change the oil, oil filter, and adjust the valves? Or should I make an appointment at my local Guzzi dealer and get ready to cough up some big $$??

Hope everyone has a safe and fun Memorial Day weekend, and thanks to all my fellow Veterans for serving.

JQ

[Biking Sailor]

JQ, nice to hear from you.  I also prefer the bike without the hard bags but for more cosmetic reasons. I have the back mid way, I think, so it will squat 3/4" when I put my 180# on it.  Set the forks up same way going by a sport riding book.  Put about 4 clicks on the rear with the bags added and seems compliant but sure footed even in bumpy corners.  I did soften the compression on the forks when commuting and a couple clicks on when riding in twisties.  To me the bike handles well for it's weight, very happy.
Service, my mechanic is a Griso rider and former road racer and really seems to know his stuff.  He has reset/checked the TPS and computer stuff everytime I brought it in, along with valves and ALL the fluids.  Told me the gear and final drive lube is only 1/2 a quart each and easily done so should be done every service.  He also advised fork and brake bleed yearly as a precaution and to keep oils fresh. If he had recommended them at first, I would have paid for it, so he was giving up some revenue.
I told him he would be doing all my work until the warranty was over, then I'll be doing it, want no questions through warranty period as I have many bikes but new to Guzzis.

Good luck and ride safe and often!
Darren

[Pete Roper]

Now, the reason for my post today is I'd like some feedback from 1200 2v owners on the upcoming maintenance due at 6250 miles (10k km if I recall). I was looking at the maintenance manual and it seems to call for a lot of things that I wouldn't have expected since the 600 mile break in service. I expected an oil change and valve adjustment, as well as air filter and maybe throttle body sync if necessary,  but the fact that it calls for changing the transmission oil, final drive oil, fork oil, and even the fork seals is very surprising to me. Why on earth would you need to replace fork seals at 6000 miles?? I mean, if they're leaking then I can see changing them, but that seems like it would be a warranty item and not a service requirement. Anyways, I know this isn't necessarily a Guzzi Maintenance forum but this is the one I frequent and I know there's a lot of Guzzi experience here as well as many Norge and 1200 Sport owners. So, what do you think? Is the first service overkill? Should I stick to my gut feeling and just change the oil, oil filter, and adjust the valves? Or should I make an appointment at my local Guzzi dealer and get ready to cough up some big $$??

Hope everyone has a safe and fun Memorial Day weekend, and thanks to all my fellow Veterans for serving.

JQ

Mate, I have NO idea why a lot of this shit is specified as 'Normal' maintenance. Quite simply its absurd. The forks and steering head? What other manufacturer would suggest that you have to completely disassemble the front end of the bike at the first service? None of 'em. Thats how many! The problem is I had a warranty claim for steering head bearings on a customer's bike knocked back because when I pointed out that the bearings were insufficiently greased, (there was NONE!) at the factory I was told that they should of been inspected at the first service so it was MY fault!!!! "Kiss my arse!" was my response. A pair of 32205 tapered rollers for the steering head of a V7 classic cost me about $40 at the bearing factor and I did it for the customer because it was the RIGHT thing to do! With your 1200 sport you'll find the original steering head bearings are dreadful cup and cone ball races. why? COST of course. Personally, rather than bothering to check and grease these inadequate units now I'd wait until they go tits, (Mine are getting a bit rough at 50,000km and I'll have to do something about them soon but its not *that* urgent.) and replace them with proper tapered roller bearings. The NTN part # is 32907XU and you'll be able to get x-refferences to other manufacturers, NSK for instance have the HR32907J as their equivalent. Just remember the hiher the number of rollers the greater the load carrying capacity, speed rating is never an issue with steering head bearings!!! POC in tapered rollers is obviously MUCH higher than cup and cone balls.

Always do the oils. All of 'em. Also use one that meets te original specification. while not quite as important from a heat point of view in the 'old' pushrod motor you DO want an oil with lots of zinc and phosphurus in it as these are very good anti-scuff agents and help flat tappets a lot. they are, unfortunately, murder on catalytic converters but as long as your rings and guides are OK this isn't an isse, hence the recommendation for an SG rated oil.

As for 'surging'? I have never experienced this but if your bike has an erratic idle it is most likely due to the the throttle bodies not being ballanced properly and on a light throttle this will translate to a similar problem on the road. If you have an 'open' pipe fitted you'll never get it to run well either unless you have a map modifier of some sort fitted, most of them start at $900 and go up.

Many 'Mechanics' think that you 'tune' and ballance throttle bodies like you do carbs, using the air bleeds to alter the idle trim.

FAIL!!!!!!

The idle trim on all modern Guzzis is controlled by the stepper motor. Ballancing the TB's requires that both air bleeds be closed and the engine be bought to operating temperature, (Over 60*C) then with the revs held at 3,500-4,000 use the screw on the bell crank on the linkage rod beneath the LH throttle body to ballance the manifold depression using guages, a twinmax or whatever. Once this is achieved drop the throttle to idle, kill the motor and re-set the TPS using Navigator, VDSTS or whatever tool is available. Re-start the engien and then open the air bleed on whichever side shows the greatest manifold depression until the TB's are once again ballanced.

NEVER TOUCH THE IDLE STOP SCREW ON THE LEFT HAND THROTTLE BODY. THE IDLE SPEED IS GOVERNED BY THE ECU AND STEPPER MOTOR. TOUCH THAT SCREW AND YOU'VE OPENED UP A WORLD OF PAIN AND INVALIDATED YOUR WARRANTY!!!!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

The thing is that once set up right it should rarely need looking at. when was the last time you had to bugger about with the FI on your car? Probably never! Why should your bike be any different? I haven't had to touch ANTYTHING on my 8V Griso for the last 30,000kms, well nothing to do with the fuelling. Even the valve lash remains obstinately within spec if I use feelers as go/no-go guages rather than a specific size! My Aprilia Mana is the same, (Shrug?) What's not to like????

Pete

[Blunder]

Pete is so eloquent.


 


I don't know how many bathroom sessions it took to get me through the owner's manual section on maintenance requirements but I now realize a modern 08 Breva 1200 Sport, one that I own, requires not much more than any other typical motorcycle.

There are things one must pay attention to, but that goes for any bike.

Check and change all the oils as the mileage goes on. Look throughout the bike for anything that might seem unusual. A leaky fork seal or dark brake and clutch fluid is pretty obvious. Brake wear? Guzzisti please. You can't look?

They are a bit different if you've never owned anything Italian, but they're not inscrutable. Your set of Craftsman tools will work just the same.

My bike came out of the store well setup. The mechanics were reputable.

[johnnyquest]

Mr. Roper, as someone who just joined the bifocal club late last year, I appreciate your use of the large fonts!  
I appreciate your insight and I will take it under advisement. I believe I will change all the fluids, adjust the valve clearance, and leave the steering head and fork seals alone.

As for my surging, perhaps I need to describe it a little better. Once the bike is at operating temperature, if I'm stopped at a traffic light with the clutch pulled in and the bike in gear my bike will idle between 1500 and 1800 rpms, rising and falling once every one to two seconds. If I put the bike in neutral and release the clutch lever, then the bike will idle at just over 1000 rpm with no rise or fall. I appreciate your advice on what not to touch on the throttle bodies, I completely get that. Just like Dirty Harry said..."A man's got to know his limitations"

Sounds like I'll order some fluids and a filter, probably should remove the tank and check the air cleaner, and then once I've done everything I know I can do and have the tools and equipment to do, then I'll ride over to my dealer and ask him about my idle and see if my throttle bodies need to be synced.

JQ

[Roadscum]

Johnnyq., the irratic idle you describe seems to be a common problem, my 1200 Sport also had it.
Here's a solution that worked for me:
http://www.guzzitech.com/store/GT-SMK.html

If your not familiar with Guzzitech.......... you should be, every Guzzi owner should be. They provide  products for our Guzzi's that are not available anywhere else and the forum is a wonderful source of information.

Regards, Paul

[Pete Roper]

As for my surging, perhaps I need to describe it a little better. Once the bike is at operating temperature, if I'm stopped at a traffic light with the clutch pulled in and the bike in gear my bike will idle between 1500 and 1800 rpms, rising and falling once every one to two seconds. If I put the bike in neutral and release the clutch lever, then the bike will idle at just over 1000 rpm with no rise or fall. I appreciate your advice on what not to touch on the throttle bodies, I completely get that. Just like Dirty Harry said..."A man's got to know his limitations"

Apart from the fact that the idle stabilizes when you pull in the clutch, (Which is probably due to a higher load being put on the motor through viscous drag.) what you describe are the textbook symptoms of a machine with both the air bleeds open on the throttle bodies. I've got to go to work now but I'll explain a bit later what is happening and what you will have to do about it. If the bike has supposedly been pre-delivered and the problem has been there since new I strongly suggest yu get it serviced 'Elsewhere'!

Pete

[Pete Roper]

I've explained how the throttle bodies are synched on the W5AM equipped bikes and this procedure needs to be followed if you wish the bike to run correctly.

One of the problems as I noted is that many people who should know better think that you use the air bleeds on the throttle bodies like the idle mixture screws on a carburetor. Sorry. It doesn't work like that.

With most of the current Guzzis that use the W5AM ECU the idle is controlled by a stepper motor. This is a device that feeds air into the inlet tracts to change the mixture to maintain a steady idle, (It has another function too but that isn't relevent to this so we'll concentrate on the idle speed issue. )

The ECU is programmed to try and get the idle speed to a constant figure, in the newer Guzzis this is about 1200 rpm. From cold the stepper motor will severly restrict air flow as well as the ECU delivering more than *normal* fuel creating a richer mixture as you would get in a carbureted engine if you put the 'Choke' on. As the engine warms up though less fuel is required and the ECU takes information from the engine temperature sensor, the air temperature sensor and I'm pretty sure, although we aren't told this by the factory, there is a time related decay-curve built into the fueling map. The ECU crunches the numbers and looks at the idle speed and keeps cutting down on fuel and adding air via the stepper motor until the engine reaches operating temperature when the system goes fully closed loop and starts using the O2 sensor in the pipe to glean info on what is happening in the combustion chamber.

So why is your bike surging?

Well, the air bleed screws on these bikes have one function and one function only and that is to enable the throttle bodies to be ballanced perfectly at idle. As I said you do a 'High Speed' ballance with the engine at about 3,500-4,000 RPM using the screw on the bell crank underneath the LH throttle body. When you do this it will alter the TPS reading as for some reason best known to them Guzzi chose to put the TPS on the RH throttle body?? . So you allow the throttle to snap shut. Kill the engine, re-set the TPS and then restart it. Then you use ONLY the air bleed on the side with the highest vacuum to be opened just enough to ballance the TB's at idle. This rarely needs more than 1/2 a turn of the screw.

IF both the air bleeds are open, (And the commonest thing I've found on bikes set up by people who can't read a manual is both air bleeds 1 & 1/2 turns open as you would have them on 'Ideally' tuned carburetors ) way too much air is fed into the inlet tracts leaning out the mixture and causing the idle speed to rise. When this happens the ECU detects it and thinks "Hey! Idling too high. Better pull back on the air!" so it does, but then the stepper will over-compensate and shut off too much air so the engine drops below its target RPM and will try to stall. ECU thinks "Help! The motor's about to stall! Add lots more air to speed up the idle!" So it does and you're back to square one. It's a viscious cycle that occurs over a period of seconds and causes that uneven 'Surging' you describe.

Simple way to see if that is the problem is to check the air bleed screws, on the Sport 12 they are underneath on the OUTSIDE of the TB's. look at the TB and you'll see there are two 'Tubes' cast into the body. One has a hollow bottom and up in that you will find a small screw. Take a small flat bladed screwdriver and with the engine off, (Just because its easier.) try turning the screw in. Count how many turns it is to fully seated, (As I say, it's rarely more than 1/2 a turn if everthing is right.) then go to the other side of the bike and see what the one on that side is like. If they are both open? Note by how many turns so if all else fails you can put it back where it was but if they are both open close them both and fire the bike up and see if the surging has gone away. The bike may be slightly rougher at idle but as long as the high speed synch is close to right and the TPs is set correctly the 'Surging' should of disappeared.

To get it RIGHT of course you'll have to do a full tune up including TB ballance and TPS re-set and to do that you need gauges or a twinmax and either Navigator or one of the other dignostic tools like VDSTS. Model specific versions of VDSTS are available for less than $200US I believe and it is a very useful tool. Far easier to use and more intuitive than Navigator which is a hopeless, fragile, doorstop!

There is NOTHING to be afraid of in the new FI bikes. In real terms they are a LOT simpler to tune than carbys!!!!

Pete

[bisbonian]

I work on Huachuca as well, one day we'll have to get together.

Unfortunately my car gets way better mileage than the Guzzi so I don't ride in as much as I used to but try for at least one day a week.

I'm in Bisbee but if you want a good ride down for a hand with the service then come on.  The oil changes are easy and I have the VDST so we could reset your TPS after the throttle body sync.  Of course my garage is very small and currently packed with the Guzzi and a KTM that is in pieces so it might be better for me to come up.

We can do a bit of a swap so you can see what the Guzzitech reflash and a PC-V get you.

I'm planning on heading up to Springerville Friday and not coming back until Sunday afternoon so this weekend is out but normally I'm around.  Shoot me a PM if you want and I'll give you my cell number for contact.

[johnnyquest]

Pete, thank you so much for explaining this so well. I'm going to copy your text into a file and save it! Great information!!

Bisbonian, great to hear from you! I'm also busy this weekend, working saturday. I'd appreciate the assistance with my upcoming maintenance and would be glad to compensate you for your time and equipment use. I'll PM you in a couple of days with my contact info and we'll set something up.

JQ

[bisbonian]

Bisbonian, great to hear from you! I'm also busy this weekend, working saturday. I'd appreciate the assistance with my upcoming maintenance and would be glad to compensate you for your time and equipment use. I'll PM you in a couple of days with my contact info and we'll set something up.

JQ

Normally I work this so that you supply lunch.

We'll get together and I'll see what I need to bring with me if I come up, the only difficult thing to bring is the mercury sticks for syncing the throttle bodies as I tend to lose the mercurly if they're laying on their side.  Otherwise it's a piece of cake.

[MisterSmooth]

...Pete, thank you so much for explaining this so well. I'm going to copy your text into a file and save it!  Great information!!JQ

Big plus one!  Thanks, Pete.