Majorly hosed by Speed

[Mr. Whippy]

Those of you in the mid-Atlantic region know the shop I'm talking about.  This is a story about my 2004 Multistrada.

I bought it used with about 800 miles.  I did the "Fly and Ride" thing, when I picked it up in Knoxville.  With 3000 miles on the clock, I noticed an oil leak.  With a little bit of the warranty left, I brought it to Speeds.  They told me the base gaskets were leaking and that they'd take care of it, no problem.

Now at 22,000 miles, the valve guides showed increased wear.  So, I sent the heads off to Redline Performance for new valve guides.  They called me to tell me the horizontal head was shot, as was the camshaft, due to oil starvation.  They found a lot of liquid gasket in the oil passages.  I then started looking at the cylinders and found more gasket material in there too. I can't prove that Speeds did this, but I believe it's a reasonable assumption.

It ended up costing me about $350 more to find a suitable used head/cam on ebay.

I'm just now getting everything back together (had to take it Battleys to get the timing set, since the new head didn't have my timing marks on it).  

I mention this only to help someone else who's looking for a good shop in the mid-Atlantic region.  Hopefully, this narrows the choices by one for them.

[Dave R]

tough subject line      
not defending anyone but I would imagine someone else has worked on that motor between 3000 and the 22000 it has on it now?    That is a fair amount of miles I would think it might have surfaced sooner, out of curiosity how much time has passed?   The guides were fairly common place on the first years of the DS motors..    
as a dealer it's just hard to read threads like this as often there may be a second story..  
 

[Mr. Whippy]

tough subject line      
not defending anyone but I would imagine someone else has worked on that motor between 3000 and the 22000 it has on it now?    That is a fair amount of miles I would think it might have surfaced sooner, out of curiosity how much time has passed?   The guides were fairly common place on the first years of the DS motors..    
as a dealer it's just hard to read threads like this as often there may be a second story..  
 

No one in the motor but me for valve checks/adjustments.  I have no problems with the valve guide wear.  It's a known problem.  Putting too much "Yamabond" (liquid gasket) on the base gasket is what caused me to have to source another head unit.  Since I was picking the crap out of the cylinder (and Redline sent me the old head with LOTS of crap in the oil passages), I can only assume that Speed's put too much gasket material on.  It's been 4 years since the cylinders were resealed.

Again, it's the damaged head and camshaft, not the valve guides, that I'm upset about.  (NB:  I quit using Speeds years ago for OTHER service related problems, this one just cost me a lot more)

[Mr Sunshine]

I don't understand why any sealant was used for base gaskets (espcially a RVT type)....so the fact there is any there would really bug me...let alone way too much.

[Mr. Whippy]

I don't understand why any sealant was used for base gaskets (espcially a RVT type)....so the fact there is any there would really bug me...let alone way too much.

Actually, the service manual says to use a SMALL amount of gasket sealant for replacing the base gasket. I suspect as much to keep it in place when you put the cylinder down.  There were huge globs of it around the bottom of the cylinder, on the crankcases and of course, in oil passages.

[Mr Sunshine]

Interesting comment in the service manual.  On my SV650 you use none but it also has locating pins.  Does the Ducati base gasket have its own sealant built onto it?

In either case there is a gasket sealant made by Locktit which is a spray.  Its designed for gaskets like copper gaskets without sealant to hold them in place and help them seal.  That is what I would have used if the gasket didn't have sealant.

[Mr. Whippy]

The base gasket was just a thin aluminum (I think) ring.  There are pins, but the fit is nowhere near snug

[Mr. Whippy]

One other thing... two tankfuls of gas into the rebuild and I'm averaging 8 mpg more than I used to.  Internal engine friction takes its toll I guess

[Emerson00]

Now who's worried?

<-- this guy!



I reset my heads, too, and used the Ducati gasket... I know the old aluminum gasket had the same gray liquid stuff in there. I used enough that it squeezed out just like the factory did. I tried not to use too much, but...

Speeds? Yeah, I could tell my story too. I like Speed himself, but his shop? No thank you. And he in a position where he seems to have a hard time finding good help, he's stuck defending his guys, and the whole place looks bad.

Whip, if it makes you feel better, they got me for over $1300 overall - and I still had to pay Battley's another $300 to fix it.

Battley's makes mistakes too, no doubt (I'm missing windscreen rivets, my alarm no longer works, and somehow my front turn signals no longer make good connections), but they'll get the work from me I can't do. They've done well for me overall, and I recommend them as a "local" shop.

Redline might, if it's reasonable to ship to/from them, as I like the guy Dave down there.

Internals of the Duc? Perfectly sensible. I was nervous about it, but it's not a complicated machine, and as a newbie, I understood it well enough.

[Mr Sunshine]

This is what you want to use.

http://www.csnstores.com/Loctite-Copper-Gasket-Adhesive-9-oz.-aerosol-copper-hi-temp-gasket-seal-30535-OJK1351.html?refid=BSF49-OJK1351

Not the RTV stuff.

[Mr. Whippy]

@ emerson:

Yea, I had the head AND the cylinder base gasket to do.  It was the base gasket (where the cylinder meets the crankcase) where the globs of gasket material were applied.  
 
500 miles in and the bike is working like a CHAMP!

@sunshine:

This is the stuff I used:



I like the idea of the spray on stuff.  I don't know if it will seal as well on an air (oil) cooled bike.  

I was very sparing with the gasket stuff, there's no way the globs I dug out of the passages could form.  Heck, 2 or three of the globs I dug out were probably equivalent to all the sealant I used on both cylinders.

Guess we'll know in 20K miles...

[Emerson00]

I understand - I also had the cylinders off so that's what I had to do as well - in removing the heads I thought I saw one of the cylinder-case joints move, so took the cylinders off as well. I got the head/cylinder gasket kits from the dealer and it came with a red Ducati-labeled tube of the same gray stuff. I used "sparingly" but hearing your troubles makes me wonder if I was sparing enough. Not having been aware of your issue, I would probably have erred on the side of sufficient material to seal the case-cylinder joint.

 

Great. Something else to worry over... Are there any early symptoms? I'd guess heating issues would come up first.

I seem to recall using the copper spray on material for the head gaskets, instead of the gray stuff.

[Mr. Whippy]

I understand - I also had the cylinders off so that's what I had to do as well - in removing the heads I thought I saw one of the cylinder-case joints move, so took the cylinders off as well. I got the head/cylinder gasket kits from the dealer and it came with a red Ducati-labeled tube of the same gray stuff. I used "sparingly" but hearing your troubles makes me wonder if I was sparing enough. Not having been aware of your issue, I would probably have erred on the side of sufficient material to seal the case-cylinder joint.

 

Great. Something else to worry over... Are there any early symptoms? I'd guess heating issues would come up first.

I seem to recall using the copper spray on material for the head gaskets, instead of the gray stuff.

The only symptoms I had would have been poor cold weather starting (maybe) and decreased mpg (maybe).  Those were the only two problems I was having (although I just figured it was my riding style regarding mpg).  No noises, no oil consumption, no real issues.

For reference, I'm getting 43-45 mpg in mixed traffic.  I used to get 34-36 mpg in the same traffic.


Edit to add:  emerson, I pulled several plugs the size of eraser heads out of the oil passages as well as small slips (like paint drips).  my guess is they ran a bead, set down the gasket and laid a bead on top of that.  It woiuld explain the material amount.  (Btw, I picked a few strings out of the oil mesh filter too).

[Mr Sunshine]

I like the idea of the spray on stuff.  I don't know if it will seal as well on an air (oil) cooled bike.  

The seal is maintained through the head bolts/studs.  The purpose of the spray on stuff isn't to seal, its mostly to hold the thing in place while the bolts/studs are being tightened down.