10 LAPD traffic cops sue department

[atadaskew]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/08/lapd-ticket-quota.html

[Andrew]

18 tickets a day

Wonder what would happen if every other ticket was contested in a trial, think the DA/courts would have fun then

Contest every ticket!!

[Rogue]

Well, tell us something we don't know about ticket quotas.  

They can call it anything they like.  But if it walks and talks like duck, then it is a duck.  If your performance review is based on the number of tickets you write, then it's a quota.  

It is nothing but a revenue generating venue for cities, counties, and state.  Sometimes it's about safety, but that is extremely rare!

[Orson]

I agree with Rogue

we should let asshats continue to drive like morons without fear of reprisals.

[birdrunner]

Well, tell us something we don't know about ticket quotas.  

They can call it anything they like.  But if it walks and talks like duck, then it is a duck.  If your performance review is based on the number of tickets you write, then it's a quota.  

It is nothing but a revenue generating venue for cities, counties, and state.  Sometimes it's about safety, but that is extremely rare!

Well,  how else are you supposed to rate the performance of TRAFFIC cops?   (by the number of pounds they gain eating donuts?)

[Bounce]

We'll see what the responses to this link are on the Cop forum...  

[zer0netgain]

Well,  how else are you supposed to rate the performance of TRAFFIC cops?   (by the number of pounds they gain eating donuts?)

We could do something nutty like measure decrease in accidents overall in their patrol areas?  After all, isn't the the end goal...make the roads "safer?"

[scottzilla]

I agree with Rogue

we should let asshats continue to drive like morons without fear of reprisals.

It would be nice if the police did target the asshats driving like morons.  However, speeding does not equal driving like a moron in most cases.  It is not logical to equate a lower speed with safety.

[Rogue]

Well,  how else are you supposed to rate the performance of TRAFFIC cops?   (by the number of pounds they gain eating donuts?)

If that's the case the fat moto cops in my city will win!

Seriously, they are fat.  

But on another note, how about rate the peformance of traffic cops by how low or high the accident rates are in their area of responsibility?  

But what do I know.....  

[Rogue]

we should let asshats continue to drive like morons without fear of reprisals.

Define what an asshat is?  

Ricky Racer?  Distracted driving?  DUI?  Red light runners?

If you define "asshats" as bad drivers (cell phone usage, eating, lane changine without indicators, cutting people off, tailgating, etc.), then I can tell you the cops here in SoCal are NOT doing their job.

[Orson]

I wuz agreeing with you.

[DogBoy]

If that's the case the fat moto cops in my city will win!

Seriously, they are fat.  

But on another note, how about rate the peformance of traffic cops by how low or high the accident rates are in their area of responsibility?  

But what do I know.....  

I think rating by accident would be difficult. Do you throw out accidents with drivers from a particular geographic region because they wouldn't be familiar with the enforcement in that area? Do you analyze the data by type of vehicle (truck, car, abs or non-abs) or age of driver? Demographic shifts can happen in as little as three or four years. Over how much time to do you analyze the data to get the "right" answer? What if the region the officer is responsible for hosts concerts or sports events that bring large and diverse crowds from out of the area with many different driving habits or attitudes toward driving. Seems like there are too many variables.

Does anyone have a reasonable or tested system for measuring accident data and applying it to a particular officer's performance. I can't think of one.

I also don't think tickets are an efficient revenue generator. In fact, its a terrible model. LEOs and the court system are very expensive to train and employ. Sales tax, gas taxes or property taxes are a hell of a lot cheaper to establish a collection system for than traffic enforcement. Increases in traffic enforcement are often covered by Federal grants so it would appear that increased enforcement can't even pay for itself.

Do I think the current system is working well? Of course not. I've received tickets that were BS and been pissed off about it. However, I believe financial penalties get people's attention and can affect behavior.

I'd prefer to see constructive comments on how to educate drivers and remove dangerous drivers from the road, rather than just throwing up one's hands and saying enforcement is just for revenue. And I applaud the officers in the article for exposing an obvious quota system.  

[birdrunner]

We could do something nutty like measure decrease in accidents overall in their patrol areas? After all, isn't the the end goal...make the roads "safer?"

too many variables.

Weather, population, road conditions.  Plus how do you tell which one of the cops is doing their job, which one is safety lecturing at Dunkin Donuts?

Plus the delay between data and getting to the cops is years.  And it'd cost a ton of money to implicate.

edit:

Uh, yeh,  like what Dogboy said.

[Bounce]

Here ya go folks:
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?168776-10-LAPD-Officers-Sue

"it may be against the law to have quotas but... meh..."

[scottzilla]

Here ya go folks:
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?168776-10-LAPD-Officers-Sue

"it may be against the law to have quotas but... meh..."

I'm not reading anything too bad in there.

[Rogue]

I wuz agreeing with you.

I wasn't arguing with you.  Just saying they should spend more time citing bad drivers.  The way I've seen them work, most of their time is spent sitting under a shade tree and shooting their LIDAR at speeders.  I'm thinking this is why so many of them are fat.  

You know, Paunch and John never sat around.  They patrolled and actually helped people.  

[DogBoy]

Yeah, Ponch and John got to help bikini-clad roller disco chicks every week. You'd think that would be all the incentive the CHP would need to change their ways.

[Rogue]

Do I think the current system is working well? Of course not. I've received tickets that were BS and been pissed off about it. However, I believe financial penalties get people's attention and can affect behavior.

I'd prefer to see constructive comments on how to educate drivers and remove dangerous drivers from the road, rather than just throwing up one's hands and saying enforcement is just for revenue. And I applaud the officers in the article for exposing an obvious quota system.  

While I agree with you on principle, it just doesn't work in the real world.

Yes I agree that Financial penalty changes people's behavior...only to a certain extend.  Over time it does NOT work.  People do NOT change their behavior in the long run.  This is why ticket revenue is so lucrative--the $$ just keeps on flowing year after year.  Meanwhile, the cities, counties, and States are "addicted" to this revenue so they "encourage" their field tax collectors to keep on issuing citations for the wrong reasons.  

If you prefer constructive comments, you are in the wrong place!  In any case, I'm not saying anything that is not true.  It is all about the revenue.  I've been saying this all along that if we want better drivers then we need to overhaul the whole system and we can begin with a comprehensive driver's training and re-testing every few years, which is linked to licensing and vehicle registration.  So if you don't pass, you don't get a license.  We then have to create reasonable traffic laws and finally change the way traffic cops enforce the rules.  Cops often complain that they never see bad drivers violating rules because when they are around drivers behave.  Well, if they actually patrolled their streets more instead of sitting under a shade tree waiting for violators, maybe they will see more of it.  If their presence force people to drive better, then be present in areas where there is a high level of accidents.  During rush hour, place a unit prior to a busy intersection (not right at the intersection).  All they have to do is let people see them.  Handing out a bookfull of citations to bring home to their commander is not a good way to show they are doing their jobs and certainly does not give citizens a positive view of traffic cops.

[DogBoy]

Maybe they should raise the penalties for particular citations? 95mph on a crowded freeway in a urban area would have a different penalty than 95 on a deserted two lane highway (why even cite in this case?). That does make some sense but it would be difficult to implement. I agree that just sitting on the side of the road shooting radar for a short stretch of road (duck hunting) doesn't appear to be the best use of resources.


I guess, like most government issues, there aren't any easy answers.

[Rogue]

Agree 100%.

We know what does NOT work.  It appears the LAPD traffic officers know as well.

[1moreroad]

18 tickets a day

Wonder what would happen if every other ticket was contested in a trial, think the DA/courts would have fun then

Contest every ticket!!

It has been pointed out several times on this forum that speeding is one of most difficult tickets to challenge because it is based on quantifiable evidence.  When radar is used, there is a calibrated instrument.  Police officers must pass a test to show that they can accurately estimate speed.  "Reckless" is much more difficult to argue since it's based on judgment.

There are two reasons that I think the LE community comes down hard on speeding.  The thinking is that if someone is speeding, they're probably doing something else wrong, too.  LE is trying to improve highway safety, but the tool they are using has a limited correlation to the problems they're actually trying to stop.  If they try to use another tool, the cost to the municipality could go up because it is easier to challenge a citation for reckless driving than a citation for 55 in a 35.

Also, when an accident at a higher rate of speed will have more energy and thus can have much worse consequences.  Regulating speeds means crashes will occur at slower rates of speed with less energy and hopefully better outcomes.  Again, a weakly correlated tool being used to improve safety.

[Andrew]

It has been pointed out several times on this forum that speeding is one of most difficult tickets to challenge because it is based on quantifiable evidence.  When radar is used, there is a calibrated instrument.  Police officers must pass a test to show that they can accurately estimate speed.  "Reckless" is much more difficult to argue since it's based on judgment.

There are two reasons that I think the LE community comes down hard on speeding.  The thinking is that if someone is speeding, they're probably doing something else wrong, too.  LE is trying to improve highway safety, but the tool they are using has a limited correlation to the problems they're actually trying to stop.  If they try to use another tool, the cost to the municipality could go up because it is easier to challenge a citation for reckless driving than a citation for 55 in a 35.

Also, when an accident at a higher rate of speed will have more energy and thus can have much worse consequences.  Regulating speeds means crashes will occur at slower rates of speed with less energy and hopefully better outcomes.  Again, a weakly correlated tool being used to improve safety.

Well thats all nice, think the courts would be backed up to the point that they could not prosecute all of the traffic tickets within the "speedy trial" time frame IF everyone fought the ticket?
The DA might have to drop a lot of the cases.

 Just because it is biased in the LEOs favor does not mean you should just give up.
Cops are people too and as such they make mistakes, IF you can find that mistake You Win

[Bounce]

WOW! The thread I started on the Cop forum netted this gem:

After being bailiff in traffic court for a total of 18 months over a couple tours in court security, and being intimately familiar with just about every street, road and intersection in this county, the vast majority of tickets being written are not about safety. Running red lights (real tickets written by real officers, not mailed by a for-profit corporation in another state), tailgating, speeding in school zones when kids are all over the place, cutting people off when making lane changes - those are legitimate cites. Doing 76 in a 65 on a six lane freeway with a couple miles of clear visibility and light traffic in the daytime is not hazardous, but certain officers truly believe that they are preventing widespread death and destruction and certain anarchy if they go after those dangerous, defiant people who have no respect for America's very foundation and demonstrate it by speeding. There are way too many officers out there who have worked for 10 or 20 years and written thousands of tickets but you could count on one hand the years in state prison that all of their arrestees combined have served.

[Rogue]

It's all about safety.

Right.  

The writing has been on the wall for decades and yet, so many swallow it right up, hook, line, and sinker!

It's an industry to generate revenue people!  If it was all about safety, then we should be seeing a drastic reduction in accidents resulting from speeding.  But it isn't.  It is far easier to issue thousands and thousands of citations by using radar to shoot fish in a barrel.  Municipalities and states spend tons of $$ purchasing and training their officers to bust speeders.  The CHP has it down to a science.  This is because the return on investment is so high and everyone is in on it, and that includes the courts, insurance companies, etc.

[atadaskew]

  This is because the return on investment is so high and everyone is in on it, and that includes the courts, insurance companies, etc.

That's outrageous!  Next thing you'll claim insurance companies pay for the radar guns cops use.

[Yakiman]

It's all about safety.

Right.  

The writing has been on the wall for decades and yet, so many swallow it right up, hook, line, and sinker!

It's an industry to generate revenue people!  If it was all about safety, then we should be seeing a drastic reduction in accidents resulting from speeding.  But it isn't.  It is far easier to issue thousands and thousands of citations by using radar to shoot fish in a barrel.  Municipalities and states spend tons of $$ purchasing and training their officers to bust speeders.  The CHP has it down to a science.  This is because the return on investment is so high and everyone is in on it, and that includes the courts, insurance companies, etc.

Well Said.

"Safety" and “Protection” are the twin red-headed whores government always trot out to keep the masses distracted while they’re picking the pockets of the citizens[1] they so distain.

And, we all know who funds the “industry”, from the top (taxes) and the bottom (fines)….

[1] In certain fraternal circles the “C-Word” expresses very much the same kind of bigotry and hatred as the N-Word.