V11 Lemans or similar to replace R1100S?

[Hodge Podge]

Madness? Not sure, so I'm seeking the unbiased opinion of the STN Guzzisti. I have an 04 BMW R1100S that has been a wonderful ride. It recently reached the 50K mile mark, which I realize is still young for a BMW, but the maintenance is starting to pile up--ignition coils and the like. While I appreciate the security of the servo-assisted ABS and other Teutonic technical tomfoolery, I am not enamored of the high price tag for repair and replacement if/when the gadgetry goes south.

I also have long had a soft spot for Guzzis--particularly Orson and Gil's V11s and the picture of the alloy cafe racer with the girl in leathers--and a lovely dark grey 03 V11 Lemans with low miles recently caught my eye. The V11 Lemans seems like a very, very similar bike to the R1100S, trading a hair of the "sport" for a hair more of the "tour." What wisdom does the Guzzi collective have to offfer?

Side benefit: a good friend of mine recently replaced his Bonneville with a Thruxton, so if I replace the R1100S with a V11 Lemans, we will have two of Orson's bikes between us.  

[Orson]

I'm hardly impartial  

I think Mr. Smooth owned an R1100S and might have a more balanced opinion.

A V11 is by no means a nimble lass, but one can still enjoy oneself in the twisty bits.

Having rented a few boxer twins, I can say that whatever horsepower advantage the German's enjoy is quite easily overcome by the gobs of character coming from inside the Italian lump  

The '03 model was the year that the factory addressed several issues.

[Hodge Podge]

I'm hardly impartial  

...and I posted my question in the Guzzi forum not the Beemer forum you'll notice!  I admit that this is more of a "c'mon, talk me into it..." sort of "question."

While you're here, do you mind if I ask your thoughts on the Goose v Thrux?

[Orson]

While you're here, do you mind if I ask your thoughts on the Goose v Thrux?

The Thruxton is a bit of a poseur bike. With crappy suspension and skinny tires, it's hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer.

The Thruxton engine though is a real treat with a surprising amount of torque and a soundtrack to die for. With 20 more horsepower, it would be just right. Some people complain about the ergos, but I have longish arms so, it doesn't bother me. Besides, with only 125 mile range before it goes on reserve, you'll be getting off to stretch anyways  

Great bike for exploring backroads but it's in a bit over its head when the pace picks up.

The V11 has it all over the Thruxton as a sport tourer. While a bit of a chore to hustle thru the twisties, when you learn how to ride it, it can be very satisfying. A set of fast sweepers at 5000 RPM is like reaching nirvana  

As a sport tourer, I can't think of any glaring shortcomings for the Goose.

Both bikes sound great and will have you romping on the throttle just to hear their engines bellow  

[MisterSmooth]

As Orson mentioned, I've owned an R1100S and now own a Guzzi 1200 Sport.  I put about 22,000 miles on the BMW and have so far put about 12,500 miles on the Goose.

I have not actually ridden a V11, so I any comments I have in regards the V11 lack personal confirmation.  But I know a lot about the Sport.

The R11 and the Sport are suprisingly similar bikes in many ways.  Two cylinders, basically air cooled, shaft drive, hard luggage, heated grips, comfortable for long days.  Both make about the same amount of power (95 HP, 75 lb-ft of torque) delivered in a similar way.  Both have shaft drive devices to eliminate the effect of shaft drive on handling.  And both have an overall feel of high quality finishes (weird to say that about Italian gear, but it's true).

I think that the R1100S is still one of the most handsome bikes ever.  Even now that I realize I'd rather have my Guzzi to ride--it's just better--the R11S still has an emotional pull for me.

The Sport is a bored-out version of the Breva, with arguably the nicest two valve head motor Guzzi has ever made (The newest big Guzzis have four valve heads).

Why is the 1200 Sport a better bike?  Well, one reason is that it's design is ten years newer.  The R11S was designed in 1997, and the Sport in 2007.   When Guzzi designed the Breva (the basis for the Sport), they targeted directly at the BMW R1150R, which is a pretty nice piece.

1. It has much less slack in the drivetrain.  One of my beefs with the R11S was that you have to incorporate the driveline lash into your riding to make it smooth.
2. The fueling is better, especially once the resistor fix is made (free at my dealer).
3. It sounds better.  The Guzzi V twin sounds like nothing else; it has the rumble of an old V-8 musclecar.  You find yourself running through the gears just to hear that glorious sound.
4. It has a modern digital dash with more information than you'll ever need.

Handling is equal to the BMW, and as for comfort I've ridden my Guzzi on 850 mile back to back days and was ready to go riding again the next day.

If you like the Sport, there are new ones available with full 2 year warranty.  Moto International has both colors (red or black) on the showroom floor for about $7,800; luggage is another $800 or so and heated grips maybe one hundred fifty bones installed.  This is a bike that was $13,500 originally so it's a screamin' deal right now.

Members Blakebird, Biking Sailor, Blunder, Johnny Quest and I all have Sports that we've purchased in the past couple of years so there's some support here if you have questions.


However...the V11 is not this new breed of Goose.  It's far more old school.  Before you swap your R11S for one, I'd definitely ride it.  I would expect a V11 to have a far more visceral feel than the R11S, but I would not expect it to be nearly as reliable.


2001 BMW R1100S (purchased with 8700 miles in January of 2003):






2008 Moto Guzzi 1200 Sport (purchased new in April of 2010):

[Pete Roper]

While fond of V11's the fact is that they were a bit of a 'Last-Gasp-Lash-Up' and the final machine designed wholly at Mandello. While the 'Old' six speed gearbox can be superb it also requires luck or good setting up to get the best out of it. The driveshaft can separate, not in service, but when the tyre is being changed and it is VERY important to make sure that if this happens it is re-aligned properly. In fact ANY second hand bike bought privately, (Or from a non Guzzi familiar shop!) should have this checked as a matter of course.

Cantilever rear suspension is?? Well, *adequate* is really the best I can call it. Compared to the rising rate system used on the CARC bikes it is a long way behind the 8-ball. engine is of course the same, delightful, 37 year old anachronism that has powered Guzzi big-blocks since, well, forever! The V11 itteration is though one ofthe nicest.

By 2003 Aprilia had bought Guzzi out and a variety of detail changes and improvements had been made. The LeMAns varian remains one of the very best of the Spineys and will swallow horizon like little else. It does though lack sophistication and WILL feel dated compared to something like a BMW.

Does this mean its a bad bike? Far from it. It's a superb bike. But if your are looking for something smooth and sophisticated then a 1200 Sport might be more to your lliking. If you want *almost* up to date performance one of the machines with the 8V motor, Griso, Norge or Stelvio has to be thrown into the mix.

It really depends what you want and the only way you'll find out which you prefer is by riding 'em. So what are you waiting for????

Incidentally if, as it looks like we might be, the world and particularly the US economy is going back into recession it might be worth holding off a few weeks to make sure that a.) you're OK and b.) there might be some ral bargains about.

Pete

[Orson]

Here's a previous post by Al Roethlisberger that sums up some of the issues with the V11:

2002 was Aprilia's first year of MG ownership, they stirred things up a bit such as consolidated/relocated much of the parts inventory that year, and was the first year for the LeMans and "long frame" bikes.  With that in mind, although the V11 Sport had been in production for a couple years at that point, the new LeMans(and other V11 models of that year) had a few "bugs".

1)  "fuzzy engine paint" - As you've no doubt noticed, the black engine paint introduced in ~02 tends to bubble and flake off of the drivetrain, especially in areas of higher heat.  There was a "recall" some years back where MG would either provide new engine cases with ostensibly improved paint(which required a rebuild) or exchange for swag such as riding suits, etc.  I suspect that this program is no longer available, or that a previous owner may have opted for the swag(and I'm relatively certain there aren't any other new cases).  But most owners just chose to live with it as it isn't service affecting.  Some folks also have chosen to strip off the black paint, and repaint with a different engine black or silver.  Bottom line, this is a cosmetic issue.

2)  Relays - As mentioned the stock relays have had issues for many, but there are several aftermarket varieties available that are much more reliable.  It is often just a good idea to change out the whole batch of stock relays to avoid problems down the road.

3)  Longer frame - This isn't a problem per se, although some folks were disappointed with the "slower handling" of the 02+ bikes.  For some this isn't an issue, and some have said that tire choice can ameliorate the change.  The same is true of the wider rear tire on the 02+ bikes.  The 02 bikes carried over all the 00-01 body panels and in the case of the fuel tank was a little different "fit".  It really is a cosmetic issue with the tank looking a bit "short", which was fixed with a new tank in 03.

4)  Tank suck & Vapor Lock - These two related, although not necessarily dependent issues were a product of all pre 03 models and the external(of tank) fuel system, after which the fuel pump system was moved into the interior of the fuel tank.  Not everyone has experienced the VL problem for a variety of reasons(which includes where the factory placed your fuel pump), but it does seem more susceptible to those in hot and higher altitude climates.  For more detailed info on this issue, check out the FAQ at www.v11lemans.com.  Although the vapor lock issue isn't consistent for all owners, the tank suck issue seems more prevalent and can cause tank deformation.

5)  Transmission - There was a transmission recall for some 00-01 V11s, but I don't think any of the 02 LeMans fell within that recall.  However some 02 and 03 bikes did receive a defective transmission side plate where the shift spring boss was 1mm too large, 16 instead of 15mm if I recall.  In these examples the shift return spring would bind and eventually break, leaving the transmission stuck in the gear it was in.  This is an easy fix.  Early repairs were to install a heavier spring, but we soon found the mis-sized boss to be the real problem.  The fix is to either get a new side cover or just grind down the boss.

[Hodge Podge]

Incidentally if, as it looks like we might be, the world and particularly the US economy is going back into recession it might be worth holding off a few weeks to make sure that a.) you're OK and b.) there might be some ral bargains about.

...and I think this might be the wisest course of action for now. I just dumped a load of money into refurbishing the R, so I think I'm better off sticking with it until the fiancial situation is abit clearer.

Thank you all for great input and perspective. I really dig the lines of the V11 Lemans, and can now approach this from a much more informed perspective. Very good to know the leap made to the 1200. I'll let you all know if I take the plunge, of course, but prudence dictates holding on to the Beemer for a bit.

Cheers,

Gareth

[Orson]

10 years from now, you'll be kicking yerself  

I still kick myself about passing on a 1978 Ducati 900 SS  

V11s may not be heading toward Bonneville-style cult status but, I think their cache may grow as the years trickle on by.

[Dean]

The Breva is an all around great bike, daily rider or touring machine. You can't go wrong with one, great prices on them now. Dealers have leftovers at low $$.




Dean  

[atadaskew]

I still kick myself about passing on a 1978 Ducati 900 SS  

Hold on to your European man purse .  You never know what the future may hold.

http://www.classicsportbikesforsale.com/1979-ducati-900ss/

[OrangeOkie]

I have owned two V11s, a 2003 LeMans Rosso Corsa (sold last year regrettably) and its replacement just recently purchased a 2004 V11 Sport Coppa Italia.  I am partial to the Ohlins equipped V11 of which there are four different iterations . . .



2002 Sport Scura



2003 LeMans Rosso Corsa



2004 Sport Coppa Italia


2004 LeMans Nero Corsa



2005 Cafe Sport

[kevin_stevens]

I had a V11 Sport and have ridden a friend's R1200S numerous times - never ridden a R1100S, but maybe you can extrapolate.

Executive summary - Much preferred the V11 motor - maybe similar or less peak power, but much stronger throughout the rev range.  My bike had a Power Commander and had been dyno tuned for the M4 pipes, if that matters.  It was strong everywhere, but basically came alive at 5K.  The BMW has a typical rubbery soft powerband below 7K, then a solid responsive powerband from there to redline at 9.5K or wherever.  I hated dealing with the schizo nature of it; my friend loves it and thinks it has "character".  

Much preferred the BMW suspension.  It's just much more sophisticated, and especially the short travel of the rear of the V11 can't really be fixed.  Unless you hate Telelever (I don't), there's just no real comparison - and suspension geometry is much harder to fix than engine performance.

My $.02

KeS

[Orson]

bah!

real men don't need suspension  

 

[kevin_stevens]

bah!

real men don't need suspension  

 

Real roads do!  

KeS