Lawsuit beginning against Harley Air Cooled Engines

[rgbeard]

http://www.hdforums.com/industry-news/things-getting-hot-for-harley-davidsons-air-cooled-engines.php?=industrynews&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign

[falconati]

The case will get a summary dismissal, since it would be impossible to prove that Harleys reliably start, and therefore reliably pose a threat to the operator  

[R Doug]

Loud pipes may save lives but hot cylinder heads will set your pants on fire.  

[falconati]

PS anybody notice that if you click the link at the bottom of the article to 'discuss' it, the thread was locked by the hdforum admin staff?  

[county]

design defects

   Well, this will be my catch phrase when talking to those guys with real bikes

[Frankienuckles]

 
The Flaming Ass Glide...

[Kat-Rider]

According to Mythbusters website Denim burns at 215.  Another website said a HD will operate between 200 and 240.  I guess if the engine was running at the top of its temp range and you set your leg against the motor for a while your pants would start to burn.

[Kootenanny]

"Liar Liar Pants On Fire!"


Oh, come on...only in the lawsuit-happy US.  I'm in the group mentioned at the end of the article:  "...those opposed to the idea of H-D facing legal action for simply doing what they've always done claim that higher operating temperatures on air-cooled motors are to be expected and fall under the jurisdiction of common sense."

[Snowbird]

/\ This.

[cbsnbiker]

I wonder if wearing proper gear would have protected those riders from those hot engines....

[bomber]

Dumbest fucking thing ever.

Close.

It's ALMOST as fucking dumb as HD investigating getting a patent on their engine's sound . . . ..

But not quite.

[cbsnbiker]

I honestly think this is dumber.

The sound is considered iconic by many (the owners & riders, more so than the company), so it makes sense to at least think about it.

This...? This is just stupid. It's called an internal COMBUSTION engine and that means controlled explosions and HEAT generation. It's not like there's a 100+ year history of engines generating heat or anything.

Wankers with too much free time for wanking.

Not necessarily.

It's not the fact that engines generate heat. It's what happens to the riders from that heat.

If, by ordinary and routine use of the motorcycle, the bike, for example, inflicts burn injuries on riders, then that could be actionable.

There's also the part about the alleged unreliability of the bikes.

[Testcase]

I bet one of those four riders blames other people for dumping coffee in their own laps...  

[cbsnbiker]

I bet one of those four riders blames other people for dumping coffee in their own laps...  

That's actually an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

The McDonalds coffee lawsuit sounds prima facie like a frivolous lawsuit. But if you read about the facts, you learn a different story.

[Hambonee]

That's actually an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

The McDonalds coffee lawsuit sounds prima facie like a frivolous lawsuit. But if you read about the facts, you learn a different story.

So true, sensationalism at it's best via the media.

The story itself was a bit boring and technical so the media spiced it up and hence a lot of things were said that were not exactly true...

truth was the coffee was served at a dangerous temperature far above what other merchants sold the product at with crappy cups that leaked. Poor design and delivery hence they were guilty.

Same with HD, if there product DOES run hot enough to burn a rider it is not frivolous. This sounds like something engineers and lawyers need to work out..would hate to be in THAT conversation!

[atadaskew]

According to Mythbusters website Denim burns at 215.  Another website said a HD will operate between 200 and 240.  I guess if the engine was running at the top of its temp range and you set your leg against the motor for a while your pants would start to burn.

How is that different from liquid cooled motors?  My Suzuki TL regularly showed over 220 on its engine temp readout, as do Honda Vtecs and my Duc if sitting in traffic.

Air cooled motors do run hotter than l/c motors, that's a fact.  For all a/c motors.
So the base line of this suit would be to line up other a/c bikes from other mfgs, and take temp readings.

Why not just sue all moto mfgs and say motos can hurt you?  You know, if you fall off.

This really is part of the pussification of the USA.  I hurt myself so it's your fault.  Now give me money.

[cbsnbiker]

How is that different from liquid cooled motors?  My Suzuki TL regularly showed over 220 on its engine temp readout, as do Honda Vtecs and my Duc if sitting in traffic.

Air cooled motors do run hotter than l/c motors, that's a fact.  For all a/c motors.
So the base line of this suit would be to line up other a/c bikes from other mfgs, and take temp readings.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The liquid cooled motor temperatures are the *coolant* temperature (unless you're looking at oil or other temperature source).

Even so, that's still not what's most important. It wouldn't matter if the engine were to be uncooled and run at 10,000 degrees, if the rider were isolated from it.

The issue is what these bikes are doing to the riders.

I don't know, and I have no horse in this race. All I know is what I've read since first stumbling upon this thread.

But to dismiss it as ridiculous is, itself, ridiculous. Maybe the lawsuit has merit, maybe it doesn't. The lawsuit is strong enough to have survived a Motion to Dismiss.

Why not just sue all moto mfgs and say motos can hurt you?  You know, if you fall off.

This really is part of the pussification of the USA.  I hurt myself so it's your fault.  Now give me money.

I disagree. People often make complaints like those -- until it's their turn.

[jhawk]

According to Mythbusters website Denim burns at 215.  Another website said a HD will operate between 200 and 240.  I guess if the engine was running at the top of its temp range and you set your leg against the motor for a while your pants would start to burn.

No they would not.....

Cotton (denim) ignites @ approx. 210 degrees Celsius = 410 degees Fahrenheit

Harleys operate @ between 200 and 240 degrees Fahrenheit....That's not going to set jeans on fire....


However, synthetic fabrics touching a hot exahust pipe can melt...

[Dan K]

So true, sensationalism at it's best via the media.

The story itself was a bit boring and technical so the media spiced it up and hence a lot of things were said that were not exactly true...

truth was the coffee was served at a dangerous temperature far above what other merchants sold the product at with crappy cups that leaked. Poor design and delivery hence they were guilty.

Same with HD, if there product DOES run hot enough to burn a rider it is not frivolous. This sounds like something engineers and lawyers need to work out..would hate to be in THAT conversation!

I'm way against frivolous law suits, but people have to remember that this case was tried to a jury of people just like you and me and THEY found McDonalds guilty, not the media or the lawyers arguing for or against liability.  I always get a little riled when people point to this one....lady who had the coffee spilled on her lap had 3rd degree burns on her privates...sorry, that's someone else's fault.  All she did was order coffee.

[Testcase]

I'm way against frivolous law suits, but people have to remember that this case was tried to a jury of people just like you and me and THEY found McDonalds guilty, not the media or the lawyers arguing for or against liability.  I always get a little riled when people point to this one....lady who had the coffee spilled on her lap had 3rd degree burns on her privates...sorry, that's someone else's fault.  All she did was order coffee.

Not entirely accurate. Based on the other posts in reply to my snarky one, I did a couple minutes reading (OK, not in-depth, I'll admit, but about what I'm willing to invest at this time) on the case as documented on Wiki. She didn't just order the coffee. She got it, stuck it between her legs to hold it (totally reasonable), and then went to pull off the lid to add her cream and sugar. That's what got it spilled on her. And it's really hot and burned her quite badly, enough to cause this elderly person severe pain and suffering and requiring lots of treatment. That sucks.

OK.

The argument is the coffee was too hot and warnings provided on the cup were too insufficient.

Yes, I'm just reading Wikipedia on it. The article appears to be well-sourced, but you know...it's Wiki. There appears to be a contradiction I'm seeing in 'crappy cup that's leaky' and 'she was pulling the lid off the cup'. I'm not interested in hashing over this case, really. No, really. I hate these kind of arguments. The jury obviously agreed with her lawyer, the judge obviously thought the award outrageous, and the two parties agreed on something out-of-court. According to the article, all she wanted was to have her out-of-pocket covered for her treatment.

How hot is too hot? How many warnings are reasonably needed? Where is the line of personal responsibility? Bad things happen by accident. Where should the lines of fault be drawn when they do? How much protection should we demand from the world at large?

You know what?

I don't fucking know. I just want to ride a goddamn motorcycle. I'll try to keep in mind that engines produce heat.