Lawsuit beginning against Harley Air Cooled Engines

[rgbeard]

http://www.hdforums.com/industry-news/things-getting-hot-for-harley-davidsons-air-cooled-engines.php?=industrynews&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign

[falconati]

The case will get a summary dismissal, since it would be impossible to prove that Harleys reliably start, and therefore reliably pose a threat to the operator  

[R Doug]

Loud pipes may save lives but hot cylinder heads will set your pants on fire.  

[falconati]

PS anybody notice that if you click the link at the bottom of the article to 'discuss' it, the thread was locked by the hdforum admin staff?  

[county]

design defects

   Well, this will be my catch phrase when talking to those guys with real bikes

[Frankienuckles]

 
The Flaming Ass Glide...

[Kat-Rider]

According to Mythbusters website Denim burns at 215.  Another website said a HD will operate between 200 and 240.  I guess if the engine was running at the top of its temp range and you set your leg against the motor for a while your pants would start to burn.

[Kootenanny]

"Liar Liar Pants On Fire!"


Oh, come on...only in the lawsuit-happy US.  I'm in the group mentioned at the end of the article:  "...those opposed to the idea of H-D facing legal action for simply doing what they've always done claim that higher operating temperatures on air-cooled motors are to be expected and fall under the jurisdiction of common sense."

[Snowbird]

/\ This.

[cbsnbiker]

I wonder if wearing proper gear would have protected those riders from those hot engines....

[bomber]

Dumbest fucking thing ever.

Close.

It's ALMOST as fucking dumb as HD investigating getting a patent on their engine's sound . . . ..

But not quite.

[cbsnbiker]

I honestly think this is dumber.

The sound is considered iconic by many (the owners & riders, more so than the company), so it makes sense to at least think about it.

This...? This is just stupid. It's called an internal COMBUSTION engine and that means controlled explosions and HEAT generation. It's not like there's a 100+ year history of engines generating heat or anything.

Wankers with too much free time for wanking.

Not necessarily.

It's not the fact that engines generate heat. It's what happens to the riders from that heat.

If, by ordinary and routine use of the motorcycle, the bike, for example, inflicts burn injuries on riders, then that could be actionable.

There's also the part about the alleged unreliability of the bikes.

[Testcase]

I bet one of those four riders blames other people for dumping coffee in their own laps...  

[cbsnbiker]

I bet one of those four riders blames other people for dumping coffee in their own laps...  

That's actually an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

The McDonalds coffee lawsuit sounds prima facie like a frivolous lawsuit. But if you read about the facts, you learn a different story.

[Hambonee]

That's actually an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

The McDonalds coffee lawsuit sounds prima facie like a frivolous lawsuit. But if you read about the facts, you learn a different story.

So true, sensationalism at it's best via the media.

The story itself was a bit boring and technical so the media spiced it up and hence a lot of things were said that were not exactly true...

truth was the coffee was served at a dangerous temperature far above what other merchants sold the product at with crappy cups that leaked. Poor design and delivery hence they were guilty.

Same with HD, if there product DOES run hot enough to burn a rider it is not frivolous. This sounds like something engineers and lawyers need to work out..would hate to be in THAT conversation!

[atadaskew]

According to Mythbusters website Denim burns at 215.  Another website said a HD will operate between 200 and 240.  I guess if the engine was running at the top of its temp range and you set your leg against the motor for a while your pants would start to burn.

How is that different from liquid cooled motors?  My Suzuki TL regularly showed over 220 on its engine temp readout, as do Honda Vtecs and my Duc if sitting in traffic.

Air cooled motors do run hotter than l/c motors, that's a fact.  For all a/c motors.
So the base line of this suit would be to line up other a/c bikes from other mfgs, and take temp readings.

Why not just sue all moto mfgs and say motos can hurt you?  You know, if you fall off.

This really is part of the pussification of the USA.  I hurt myself so it's your fault.  Now give me money.

[cbsnbiker]

How is that different from liquid cooled motors?  My Suzuki TL regularly showed over 220 on its engine temp readout, as do Honda Vtecs and my Duc if sitting in traffic.

Air cooled motors do run hotter than l/c motors, that's a fact.  For all a/c motors.
So the base line of this suit would be to line up other a/c bikes from other mfgs, and take temp readings.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The liquid cooled motor temperatures are the *coolant* temperature (unless you're looking at oil or other temperature source).

Even so, that's still not what's most important. It wouldn't matter if the engine were to be uncooled and run at 10,000 degrees, if the rider were isolated from it.

The issue is what these bikes are doing to the riders.

I don't know, and I have no horse in this race. All I know is what I've read since first stumbling upon this thread.

But to dismiss it as ridiculous is, itself, ridiculous. Maybe the lawsuit has merit, maybe it doesn't. The lawsuit is strong enough to have survived a Motion to Dismiss.

Why not just sue all moto mfgs and say motos can hurt you?  You know, if you fall off.

This really is part of the pussification of the USA.  I hurt myself so it's your fault.  Now give me money.

I disagree. People often make complaints like those -- until it's their turn.

[jhawk]

According to Mythbusters website Denim burns at 215.  Another website said a HD will operate between 200 and 240.  I guess if the engine was running at the top of its temp range and you set your leg against the motor for a while your pants would start to burn.

No they would not.....

Cotton (denim) ignites @ approx. 210 degrees Celsius = 410 degees Fahrenheit

Harleys operate @ between 200 and 240 degrees Fahrenheit....That's not going to set jeans on fire....


However, synthetic fabrics touching a hot exahust pipe can melt...

[Dan K]

So true, sensationalism at it's best via the media.

The story itself was a bit boring and technical so the media spiced it up and hence a lot of things were said that were not exactly true...

truth was the coffee was served at a dangerous temperature far above what other merchants sold the product at with crappy cups that leaked. Poor design and delivery hence they were guilty.

Same with HD, if there product DOES run hot enough to burn a rider it is not frivolous. This sounds like something engineers and lawyers need to work out..would hate to be in THAT conversation!

I'm way against frivolous law suits, but people have to remember that this case was tried to a jury of people just like you and me and THEY found McDonalds guilty, not the media or the lawyers arguing for or against liability.  I always get a little riled when people point to this one....lady who had the coffee spilled on her lap had 3rd degree burns on her privates...sorry, that's someone else's fault.  All she did was order coffee.

[Testcase]

I'm way against frivolous law suits, but people have to remember that this case was tried to a jury of people just like you and me and THEY found McDonalds guilty, not the media or the lawyers arguing for or against liability.  I always get a little riled when people point to this one....lady who had the coffee spilled on her lap had 3rd degree burns on her privates...sorry, that's someone else's fault.  All she did was order coffee.

Not entirely accurate. Based on the other posts in reply to my snarky one, I did a couple minutes reading (OK, not in-depth, I'll admit, but about what I'm willing to invest at this time) on the case as documented on Wiki. She didn't just order the coffee. She got it, stuck it between her legs to hold it (totally reasonable), and then went to pull off the lid to add her cream and sugar. That's what got it spilled on her. And it's really hot and burned her quite badly, enough to cause this elderly person severe pain and suffering and requiring lots of treatment. That sucks.

OK.

The argument is the coffee was too hot and warnings provided on the cup were too insufficient.

Yes, I'm just reading Wikipedia on it. The article appears to be well-sourced, but you know...it's Wiki. There appears to be a contradiction I'm seeing in 'crappy cup that's leaky' and 'she was pulling the lid off the cup'. I'm not interested in hashing over this case, really. No, really. I hate these kind of arguments. The jury obviously agreed with her lawyer, the judge obviously thought the award outrageous, and the two parties agreed on something out-of-court. According to the article, all she wanted was to have her out-of-pocket covered for her treatment.

How hot is too hot? How many warnings are reasonably needed? Where is the line of personal responsibility? Bad things happen by accident. Where should the lines of fault be drawn when they do? How much protection should we demand from the world at large?

You know what?

I don't fucking know. I just want to ride a goddamn motorcycle. I'll try to keep in mind that engines produce heat.  

[falconati]

I once got hit by a car while on my bike and even though I was alright, my Mom sued me for the emotional distress I caused her by being struck.  

[Hambonee]

Not entirely accurate. Based on the other posts in reply to my snarky one, I did a couple minutes reading (OK, not in-depth, I'll admit, but about what I'm willing to invest at this time) on the case as documented on Wiki. She didn't just order the coffee. She got it, stuck it between her legs to hold it (totally reasonable), and then went to pull off the lid to add her cream and sugar. That's what got it spilled on her. And it's really hot and burned her quite badly, enough to cause this elderly person severe pain and suffering and requiring lots of treatment. That sucks.

OK.

The argument is the coffee was too hot and warnings provided on the cup were too insufficient.

Yes, I'm just reading Wikipedia on it. The article appears to be well-sourced, but you know...it's Wiki. There appears to be a contradiction I'm seeing in 'crappy cup that's leaky' and 'she was pulling the lid off the cup'. I'm not interested in hashing over this case, really. No, really. I hate these kind of arguments. The jury obviously agreed with her lawyer, the judge obviously thought the award outrageous, and the two parties agreed on something out-of-court. According to the article, all she wanted was to have her out-of-pocket covered for her treatment.

How hot is too hot? How many warnings are reasonably needed? Where is the line of personal responsibility? Bad things happen by accident. Where should the lines of fault be drawn when they do? How much protection should we demand from the world at large?

You know what?

I don't fucking know. I just want to ride a goddamn motorcycle. I'll try to keep in mind that engines produce heat.  

The crappy lid may have been my thing as until the revamp McD's coffee lids SUCKED and I burned my hands constantly even just grabbing the cup as it slipped off.

The hot coffee issue was due to the fact that it was so extremely beyond what other places gave out. To the point that 1 second of contact could cause serious burns...dude..that's too hot and down right dangerous and beyond what a reasonable person would expect. They admitted to keeping it at 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. They also admitted that they had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.


I think that is what they are trying to push with the HD thing. Do I think they will win...nahhh..I got an air cooled bike and yeah..they engine is hot...but who knows..I don't think any of us have enough background on it to comment to much....that's what the jury is for!  

[HipGnosis]

The jury obviously agreed with her lawyer...

Not neccesarily so.
A jury HAS to pick one of two or three options.  
When there's only 2 or 3 items on the menu, you can bet they're all pretty poor choices.

[atadaskew]

I disagree. People often make complaints like those -- until it's their turn.

I was going to disagree but I just got a wikkid paper cut and am now lawyering up and going after Staples.

[bomber]

I was going to disagree but I just got a wikkid paper cut and am now lawyering up and going after Staples.

When you actually purchased the offending weapponized wood pulp from Office Despot.

Ahh, America!

;-}

[atadaskew]

 Maybe the lawsuit has merit, maybe it doesn't. The lawsuit is strong enough to have survived a Motion to Dismiss.

The legal industry in the US is an industry.  It's all about making money - whether from the plaintiff or defendant side.  The lawyers do not care.  So to have survived a Motion to Dismiss is hardly surprising.

Another example of the pussification of the USA.

FYI I owned a 2009 Harley Dyna and I'm sure it would have burnt my leg/arm/head/whatever if I touched the hot engine or exhaust.  Just as would other bikes.
But I have had a long standing understanding with things that are hot - whether an engine, a stove top, an iron, hot molten magma, sharks with frickin laser beams..

I don't touch them.
Posted on: September 07, 2011, 02:05:14 PM

When you actually purchased the offending weapponized wood pulp from Office Despot.

Ahh, America!

;-}

I got friction burns from spending too much time on the cleavage thread.

I'm suing StN!

[Hambonee]

The legal industry in the US is an industry.  It's all about making money - whether from the plaintiff or defendant side.  The lawyers do not care.  So to have survived a Motion to Dismiss is hardly surprising.

Another example of the pussification of the USA.

FYI I owned a 2009 Harley Dyna and I'm sure it would have burnt my leg/arm/head/whatever if I touched the hot engine or exhaust.  Just as would other bikes.
But I have had a long standing understanding with things that are hot - whether an engine, a stove top, an iron, hot molten magma, sharks with frickin laser beams..

I don't touch them.
Posted on: September 07, 2011, 02:05:14 PM

I got friction burns from spending too much time on the cleavage thread.

I'm suing StN!

So you don't care if manufacturers or merchants produce unsafe products? There is a differrence between hot and scalding btw.. Hmmm..pretty slippery slope there. Not a fan of lawyers but...

[Testcase]

I'm suing the next person to reply!

[falconati]

I think the "slippery slope" argument could be used on both sides of the fence, on this one.

PS bring it Testcase, I'm lawyered up and suing you for assault as your post made me feel threatened.

[Kootenanny]

You're comparing apples and oranges. The liquid cooled motor temperatures are the *coolant* temperature (unless you're looking at oil or other temperature source).

Hmmm...minor burn from touching hot engine...major burns from scalding coolant from burst radiator line soaking my pants...you're right, apples and oranges!

[Dan K]

Not neccesarily so.
A jury HAS to pick one of two or three options.  
When there's only 2 or 3 items on the menu, you can bet they're all pretty poor choices.

It's pretty simple. Yes, they proved each of these facts, or no, they did not prove each of these facts.

Jury has to say either the elements of the action were met (in that case, I believe it was negligence, so they had to prove McD's had a duty, they breached the duty, and the breach caused damages to the plaintiff).

There are no poor choices - jury instructions are (intended) to be fact questions only - the courts decide the legal questions.

- Dan

[axelwik]

Not necessarily.

It's not the fact that engines generate heat. It's what happens to the riders from that heat.

If, by ordinary and routine use of the motorcycle, the bike, for example, inflicts burn injuries on riders, then that could be actionable.

There's also the part about the alleged unreliability of the bikes.

You must be one of those fucking lawyers.  

[Testcase]

PS bring it Testcase, I'm lawyered up and suing you for assault as your post made me feel threatened.

[atadaskew]

So you don't care if manufacturers or merchants produce unsafe products? There is a differrence between hot and scalding btw.. Hmmm..pretty slippery slope there. Not a fan of lawyers but...

Of course I care, but I do not see how 'this' suit can have any merit whatsoever.
I owned the bike in question, so to speak, and it did not strike me in any way as more dangerous to getting burnt than any other bike I've owned or ridden.

I'm not defending Harley per se, as I do not see myself buying another one, but I do see BS in the suit and that is the issue here.

[county]

I cannot believe you people...this is   hysterical and all you can do is call it a dumb lawsuit.


This is like Yamaha being sued for the weight of the FJR

[cbsnbiker]

The crappy lid may have been my thing as until the revamp McD's coffee lids SUCKED and I burned my hands constantly even just grabbing the cup as it slipped off.

The hot coffee issue was due to the fact that it was so extremely beyond what other places gave out. To the point that 1 second of contact could cause serious burns...dude..that's too hot and down right dangerous and beyond what a reasonable person would expect. They admitted to keeping it at 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. They also admitted that they had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.


I think that is what they are trying to push with the HD thing. Do I think they will win...nahhh..I got an air cooled bike and yeah..they engine is hot...but who knows..I don't think any of us have enough background on it to comment to much....that's what the jury is for!  

If I remember correctly, another factor was that this wasn't news to McDonald's.

Hmmm...minor burn from touching hot engine...major burns from scalding coolant from burst radiator line soaking my pants...you're right, apples and oranges!

I once touched a hot part of an engine. I heard the searing of my skin before I felt it.  

Neither is pleasant.

[caddydaddy]

This is like Yamaha being sued for the weight of the FJR

They are kinda heavy!  

[atadaskew]

I cannot believe you people...this is   hysterical and all you can do is call it a dumb lawsuit.


This is like Yamaha being sued for the weight of the FJR

Actually, no.

Yes the Yamaha is heavy, butt there are many much heavier bikes out there.
So this would be like Yamaha and everyone else that makes a bike as heavy or heavier also being sued.

So w/ re. to Harley, it would be like everyone who makes a motor that gets hot enough to burn you if you touch it getting sued.  So sue everyone!

Ergo the pussification of the USA.

[cbsnbiker]

Actually, no.

Yes the Yamaha is heavy, butt there are many much heavier bikes out there.
So this would be like Yamaha and everyone else that makes a bike as heavy or heavier also being sued.

So w/ re. to Harley, it would be like everyone who makes a motor that gets hot enough to burn you if you touch it getting sued.  So sue everyone!

Ergo the pussification of the USA.

Your syllogisms are faulty.

But you know that already.

At least I hope so.

[Blunder]

Can I sue Honda for the thigh burns I received from an early '70s CL175 high piper?

[desertxxrider]

All they have to do is install chrome heat shields all around the engine and some fans, whats another 100 pounds. How do they generate that much heat with such low HP anyway.

[Justin]

How do they generate that much heat with such low HP anyway.

30% of the gas burned is making heat, 60% is making noise, the remaining 10% is making power.

[desertxxrider]

30% of the gas burned is making heat, 60% is making noise, the remaining 10% is making power.

60% on the noise may be a tad high, the noise level has gone down around here since the Southpark Harley episode.

[atadaskew]

Your syllogisms are faulty.

No
Posted on: September 07, 2011, 06:25:47 PM

60% on the noise may be a tad high, the noise level has gone down around here since the Southpark Harley episode.

I wish that was true around here.

[proberts77]

The lawsuit is valid, you just need to read between the lines a little. These guys just came to the realization that they were tricked by a good marketing firm into buying a high priced,  unreliable, low technology, air cooled motorcycle and are in search of a little revenge. Can you really blame them?

(yes, I know that I ride a low technology air cooled motorcycle - but I could have bought 6 of them brand new for what these guys paid for one of theirs - and mine is reliable!  )

[Hambonee]

The lawsuit is valid, you just need to read between the lines a little. These guys just came to the realization that they were tricked by a good marketing firm into buying a high priced,  unreliable, low technology, air cooled motorcycle and are in search of a little revenge. Can you really blame them?

(yes, I know that I ride a low technology air cooled motorcycle - but I could have bought 6 of them brand new for what these guys paid for one of theirs - and mine is reliable!  )

But isn't that a marketing departments job!?!?!

Get you to spend money on stupid Sh*t?!?! Guess they fell for it!  

[Kraz]

I did read somewhere on the magical internet that a guy claimed that he got a very red leg/burns on his leg, through his jeans, while riding his Street Glide b/c the header pipe was so hot (and he was not touching the header).  Having never ridden a Street Glide, I don't care to comment.

I will say that the head off my buddy's '07 R1 was so unbelievable that the bike was almost unrideable to me.  The seat, the tank, the air, EVERYTHING was so F'ING HOT.  And I do hear the first C14's and others have uncomfortable heat as well.

Now I know why I have two girls and no boys...

[caddydaddy]

I will say that the head off my buddy's '07 R1 was so unbelievable that the bike was almost unrideable to me.  The seat, the tank, the air, EVERYTHING was so F'ING HOT.  And I do hear the first C14's and others have uncomfortable heat as well.

Now I know why I have two girls and no boys...

The gel seat on my Sprint with the under tail exhaust does get pretty damn hot in August, in New Orleans!    But, I'm happy to report that I have 1 boy and 1 girl!    I guess I won't take Triumph to court.

[Biking Sailor]

I rode a Honda at the time and went 2 for 2 in the boy category.  Honda's must be _______ !

[Prubert]

This is like Yamaha being sued for the weight of the FJR

Where do I sign up?

[Aero]

Aircooled Harley rider...  

[atadaskew]

The upside if this suit gets anywhere is that Harley will have to ignore the traditionalists and build a cruiser motor in the vein of the Yamaha type (hopefully, those motors kick butt).

Downside is a potential recall could be devastating.

Upside is Erik Buell will get the last laugh...

[Plus Ultra]

"four bikers" ??? Truth be known it was two couples, (Skip and Buffy and Chip and Jenny) that bought lifestyle accecories and were totally unpreppared for the realities of riding. Next will come the suits for hearing loss and UV exposure.              

[Rogue]

The upside if this suit gets anywhere is that Harley will have to ignore the traditionalists and build a cruiser motor in the vein of the Yamaha type (hopefully, those motors kick butt).

They would have to outsource is because H-D is not capable of building ANY performance into an engine--air or water cooled.  Every single one of their performance model engine needed to be worked on by either Buell or Porsche.  

[cbsnbiker]

"four bikers" ??? Truth be known it was two couples, (Skip and Buffy and Chip and Jenny Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice) that bought lifestyle accecories and were totally unpreppared for the realities of riding. Next will come the suits for hearing loss and UV exposure.              

FIFY.

 

[maddjack]

I honestly think this is dumber.

The sound is considered iconic by many (the owners & riders, more so than the company), so it makes sense to at least think about it.

This...? This is just stupid. It's called an internal COMBUSTION engine and that means controlled explosions and HEAT generation. It's not like there's a 100+ year history of engines generating heat or anything.

Wankers with too much free time for wanking.

More like morons who think they DESERVE money for being effing stupid. Our wonderful , sue happy system rears its ugly head again.

[cbsnbiker]

 More like morons who think they DESERVE money for being effing stupid. Our wonderful , sue happy system rears its ugly head again.

You may be right.

However, the fact is that this lawsuit escaped a motion to dismiss.

Time will tell.

[maddjack]

You may be right.

However, the fact is that this lawsuit escaped a motion to dismiss.

Time will tell.

Its escaped the motion for the same reason all these BS law suites do, its a we are entitled mentality, and the judges are afraid to dismiss, they are after all lawyers too.This shit is killing this country

[cbsnbiker]

 Its escaped the motion for the same reason all these BS law suites do, its a we are entitled mentality, and the judges are afraid to dismiss, they are after all lawyers too.This shit is killing this country

You're assuming that it's BS without reviewing the fact or the law, and drawing your conclusion from your assumption.

I make no such assumption.

[Grumbler]

Just to put this into perspective, I owned a 1986 GL1200I that generated tons of
engine heat at low speeds, and cracked the hell out of my leather boots. It put
out far more heat than the air-cooled Harleys in same conditions although that
was maybe 15 years ago.

My current 2001 Vulcan 1500 Classic FI, when it had the oem exhaust system with
the catalyst converter, put out excessive heat at stoplights and slow speeds. Had
no issues after I replaced it with Bub Big Willys.

Still, current motorcycles run much leaner now than they did a decade ago. Pretty
much have to change the fuel/air mixture on air cooled bikes to run cooler.

[Kraz]

My current 2001 Vulcan 1500 Classic FI, when it had the oem exhaust system with
the catalyst converter, put out excessive heat at stoplights and slow speeds. Had
no issues after I replaced it with Bub Big Willys.

Great, another reason for Big Bubs to open up their exhaust...

Loud pipes save legs.

[tjhess74]

i dont like harleys and i cant stand thier owners (the trying-to-hard-to-be-tough ones).  but this takes the cake.  they try to be so bad ass tough, yet cant take a little heat?!  im behind harley on this one, i hope they get their court costs reimbursed by these morons.  if i were the judge i would dismiss the case and tell them to put some damn pants on!  they obviously havent ridden a concours14 or triumph trophy!

[cbsnbiker]

 Wrong, sue happy people, guess you are one of the ones who think they are entitled to money ,right??. no assumption just your tude.  
I also ASSUME you are in the  legal profession thus your defensive posture.

I believe in dealing with facts.

You're dealing in conjecture.

I acknowledge that I don't have all the facts; ergo my unwillingness to make an unwarranted assumption or to jump to conclusions.

You do not seem to be so constrained.

Remember what Shakespeare wrote: 'The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers'. This was the way for the rebellion to go forth: to get rid of the people who would be able to defend against it, the ones who could preserve individual liberties. With the lawyers out of the way, the bad guys could prevail.

[Redbandit14]

Not a Harley fan myself but WTF???

My bandit is air cooled should i be sueing Suzuki?

This kind of thing is why the U.S.  in trouble IMHO . Giving the country to lawyers was a bad  idea.  

[JSharp]

Rode a friends Screaming Eagle Chicken for about 20 miles and ended up with a burn on my right leg.  

I'd have been too embarrassed to sue anyone. I should have known better than to ride that pile in the first place.

[maddjack]

Not a Harley fan myself but WTF???

My bandit is air cooled should i be sueing Suzuki?

This kind of thing is why the U.S.  in trouble IMHO . Giving the country to lawyers was a bad  idea.  

 +1

[maddjack]

I believe in dealing with facts.

You're dealing in conjecture.

I acknowledge that I don't have all the facts; ergo my unwillingness to make an unwarranted assumption or to jump to conclusions.

You do not seem to be so constrained.

Remember what Shakespeare wrote: 'The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers'. This was the way for the rebellion to go forth: to get rid of the people who would be able to defend against it, the ones who could preserve individual liberties. With the lawyers out of the way, the bad guys could prevail.

: What ever go sell it to the jury, maybe you will help with the overweight man suing Whitecastle too,another deserving case  

[cbsnbiker]

 : What ever go sell it to the jury, maybe you will help with the overweight man suing Whitecastle too,another deserving case  

If you can read, you saw that I have no horse in this race. Heck, I don't even want to own a HD.

I do believe, however, in facts and informed opinion. You are exhibiting neither in your posts in this thread.

[McHack]

Maybe we oughta throw McD's coffee on the posers who files the suit to begin with?    

[maddjack]

He owned several Harleys. As did I, and of the generation being discussed. Could there have been several units performing improperly and causing some sort of excessively hot-running condition? Sure. That's always a possibility.

But in 30,000 miles I seemed to have been able to avoid burning myself on mine, wearing everything from shorts to full riding gear, in all weather conditions found in the Con-US 48. I also was able to avoid burning myself on the dozens of other late-model Harleys of all models that I've ridden, except for the one time that, due to space constraints in a tiny garage, i was forced to get off the right side of my brother's street glide and my leg brushed the pipe (yes, I was in shorts and sneakers) and I got a small burn. That was my own dumbass fault.

Empirically and anecdotally (which is no real basis, I admit), I think the suit is bullshit.

$.02

Thanks Chris , I never had a problem with burns on any HD I had

[Redbandit14]

Empirically and anecdotally (which is no real basis, I admit), I think the suit is bullshit.

Corperate responsibility is one thing. This has nothing to do with that everything to with Greed and an absense of personal reponsibility . Waste of time and court resourses.

[Kootenanny]

...one time...i was forced to get off the right side of my brother's street glide and my leg brushed the pipe (yes, I was in shorts and sneakers) and I got a small burn.

Sue 'em!!!

[cbsnbiker]

He owned several Harleys. As did I, and of the generation being discussed. Could there have been several units performing improperly and causing some sort of excessively hot-running condition? Sure. That's always a possibility.

But in 30,000 miles I seemed to have been able to avoid burning myself on mine, wearing everything from shorts to full riding gear, in all weather conditions found in the Con-US 48. I also was able to avoid burning myself on the dozens of other late-model Harleys of all models that I've ridden, except for the one time that, due to space constraints in a tiny garage, i was forced to get off the right side of my brother's street glide and my leg brushed the pipe (yes, I was in shorts and sneakers) and I got a small burn. That was my own dumbass fault.

Empirically and anecdotally (which is no real basis, I admit), I think the suit is bullshit.

$.02

The suit may be bull.

Several people are starting with the assumption that the suit must be bull because all such suits are supposedly bull and lawyers are bad, and drawing regressive conclusions from that assumption.

That's a sloppy way of reasoning.

[falconati]

ST.N is judge, jury, and executioner  

[Kootenanny]

Several people are starting with the assumption that the suit must be bull because all such suits are supposedly bull and lawyers are bad, and drawing regressive conclusions from that assumption.

That's a sloppy way of reasoning.

But true...

[Plus Ultra]

Ive still got a scar on my calf from a 3rd degree burn I incurred on my 450exc (yeah I was wearing shorts, but it couldnt possibly be my fault)
Think I can sue KTM?

[cbsnbiker]

Ive still got a scar on my calf from a 3rd degree burn I incurred on my 450exc (yeah I was wearing shorts, but it couldnt possibly be my fault)
Think I can sue KTM?

Can you sue? Sure.

Would you be justified? Perhaps?    

Would you get anywhere with it? I haven't a clue.

[Plus Ultra]

Kind of begs the question, what would be the out come for Harley (and and the power sports industry) if the plainltiffs prevail?
I think ther are serious implications not just for Harley.

[Hambonee]

Kind of begs the question, what would be the out come for Harley (and and the power sports industry) if the plainltiffs prevail?
I think ther are serious implications not just for Harley.

They would simply need to throw some kind of engine guard on to prevent. If you have a surface hot enough to burn a rider make sure it is not something "easily" hit by a leg or something like that. To tell you the truth I think my Guzzi is more dangerous than a HD with the flying V engine but meh. Probably not much of a re-design problem but would probably piss off Harley riders all the same. Hell, that might make it worth while! Naw..not really

[atadaskew]

Kind of begs the question, what would be the out come for Harley (and and the power sports industry) if the plainltiffs prevail?
I think ther are serious implications not just for Harley.

Every mfg would be hosed.  Every potential hot surface would have to be covered.

Hey, this aint so bad.  You hosers would just end up riding scooters!  Maybe really big scooters...

[atadaskew]

Like Accords and Goldwings?

You can still burn yourself on a Goldwing. For example while using the toaster oven.

[falconati]

 

[stevent]

Harley did this to themselves by actively courting these type of people. Their whole marketing has been toward middle-aged office schmucks trying to be bad-azz hard cases, did they really think those pussies would be able to deal with a little discomfort?

It's an exposed large discplacement air cooled engine with the cylinders located fore and aft, then block any semblance of air flow in the name of "wind protection" and finally lean the shit out of it and add a cat. That's a recipe for a very hot environment. They already redesigned the exhaust to carry the heat under the engine, what the fuck else do these clowns expect them to do?

 

[desertxxrider]

A hog rider casually walks away after a socal poker run gone bad, he later says it was the vibration not the heat that forced him off the bike.

[Kootenanny]

Harley did this to themselves has sold lots of bikes by actively courting these type of people. Their whole highly successful marketing has been toward middle-aged office schmucks trying to be bad-azz hard cases, did they really think those pussies would be able to deal with a little discomfort? which is why they design their bikes to be most comfortable on the showroom floor.

It's an exposed large discplacement air cooled engine with the cylinders located fore and aft, then block any semblance of air flow in the name of "wind protection" and finally lean the shit out of it and add a cat to meet emissions regs, just like everyone else did. That's a recipe for a very hot environment. They already redesigned the exhaust to carry the heat under the engine, what the fuck else do these clowns expect them to do?

 

There...just FTFY a bit.

[stromgal]

You can still burn yourself on a Goldwing. For example while using the toaster oven.

'Twas the Wing's espresso-maker that burned me. And once I got a toe caught in its garbage disposal. Don't ask.  

[Redbandit14]

'Twas the Wing's espresso-maker that burned me. And once I got a toe caught in its garbage disposal. Don't ask.  

[littlefield]

The clutch on a friends 110 inch CVO Ultra recently quite working. The bike had gotten so hot driving down the road normally the clutch hydraulics vapor locked. Oil pressure dropped to zero. The dealer told him 300F oil temperature was normal.
I don't believe he wants to sue anyone be he is disappointed his expensive motorcycle won't transport him reliabily. I think HD has gone to far going for more displacement from air cooled engines using lean fuelling.