Cornering techniques

[stewm_21]

I started following a thread in STn v1 about cornering techniques, basically asking the best way enter and exit a corner and how to stand up/lean in the bike and change direction to avoid stuff.  
 
Talk among yourselves, I'll follow along as will others I'm sure.

[Bodhi]

Do yourself a huge favor and buy one of the excellent books by the experts. Or better yet, go to a track school.

[black hills]

Yes, "Sport riding techniques" by Nick Ientasch or "Total Control" by Lee Parks will explain it much more clearly than anyone here.

[GRN]

Yes, "Sport riding techniques" by Nick Ientasch or "Total Control" by Lee Parks will explain it much more clearly than anyone here.

+1, "Total Control" covers a lot of good general material as well.

[scott-sts]

Forget body position for now and work on countersteering in to the turn, getting on the throttle early and driving out of the turn.  Master throttle control before worrying about body position.  Learn to mesh countersteering with throttle inputs and you will be a corner carving motherf***** before you know it!:D   Understanding how throttle and steering interact with each other is critical to riding a motorcycle smooth and fast.

[meanstrk]

Reading does wonders, but practicing what you are reading will make the biggest difference. Get 95% to 100% of your braking done before entering the corner, begin looking through the corner, and practice accellerating out of the apex. Through it all, stay loose on the bars and let the bike work under you. Staying loose will prevent any unwanted input to the bars.
 
Understand technique, and then practice it. Much better to understand WHY you are doing something than to just do something because you are told to without understanding why.

[Fourstring]

Forget body position for now and work on countersteering in to the turn, getting on the throttle early and driving out of the turn. Master throttle control before worrying about body position. Learn to mesh countersteering with throttle inputs and you will be a corner carving motherf***** before you know it!:D   Understanding how throttle and steering interact with each other is critical to riding a motorcycle smooth and fast.

Very well put

The breakthrough moment for me was discovering that the bike really does go where you look.  Before that, I was worrying about the road ten inches from my front tire, my lean, and everything else.  Looking where I want to go and keeping that mindset fixed all that for me.

FWIW, I still need a lot of practice.  Lots of good stuff here.

[Bodhi]

Lee Parks' "Total Control"
 
Reading alone isn't enough of course. But I purport that reading one of the experts (Nick or Lee's stuff) is a more prudent start than listening to strangers on an internet forum.

[jed]

Stupid question time.  I've read a couple of the books but haven't taken a class.  How do you downshift going into a corner.  Says its a 4th to 2nd corner.  Do you clutch 3 / 2 clutch or do you clutch 3 clutch 2 clutch?

I find myself dropping two gears on the street with the clutch in instead of letting each gear engage and then shifting again.

[Bodhi]

Time for MSF!

[SWriverstone]

Ditto on the throttle control. One of the best tips I read in Nick Ienatsch's book was "practice rolling on and off the throttle as slow as possible. However slow you're doing it, it's probably not slow enough."
 
I work on this all the time and have only gotten marginally better at it. It seems especially critical in corners: how many times have we heard stories of mishaps (or near-mishaps) where someone says they got on the gas a little too [pick a word] hard/vigorously/aggressively in mid-corner.
 
In my (limited) experience, this makes a BIG difference. Rolling on too hard mid-corner really upsets the chassis and throws a big jolt into a seamless arc.
 
Scott

[Mr Sunshine]

Get 95% to 100% of your braking done before entering the corner, begin looking through the corner, and practice accellerating out of the apex.

Are we talking about cornering techniques on the street or also on the track.
 
The above is great advice for the street.
 
On the track when you want to go fast the advice is lousy.
 
Just curious.

[Mr Sunshine]

Time for MSF!

We want to help people learn how to corner. Not ride their bikes in a parking lot at 10-15mph where what you do there doesn't translate very well to taking a corner at 60mph.

[Mr Sunshine]

Stupid question time. I've read a couple of the books but haven't taken a class. How do you downshift going into a corner. Says its a 4th to 2nd corner. Do you clutch 3 / 2 clutch or do you clutch 3 clutch 2 clutch?
 
I find myself dropping two gears on the street with the clutch in instead of letting each gear engage and then shifting again.

Both works.  If you are going to do the "clutch 3/2 clutch" action you better be sure you are going to enter the corner at the right RPM range.

[scott-sts]

Are we talking about cornering techniques on the street or also on the track.
 
The above is great advice for the street.
 
On the track when you want to go fast the advice is lousy.
 
Just curious.

 
I won alot a races using this technique. *shrug*

[black hills]

How can you not brake in a corner? What if you mis-judged your speed, there is something in the road, it's a decreasing radius corner?  If you can't see the exit, and all of the road surface when you go into a corner you better be prepared to get on the brakes while cornering. Otherwise you are just asking for an accident.

[scott-sts]

Stupid question time. I've read a couple of the books but haven't taken a class. How do you downshift going into a corner. Says its a 4th to 2nd corner. Do you clutch 3 / 2 clutch or do you clutch 3 clutch 2 clutch?
 
I find myself dropping two gears on the street with the clutch in instead of letting each gear engage and then shifting again.

Downshift one gear at a time.  Doing multiple gears could cause the rear to skid.  An easy way to smooth out your corner entry is to not use brakes.  Yes, don't use the brakes at all.  This forces you to think about corner entry speed and proper gear selection.  It also prevents you from entering a turn too hot which is the mark of a true rookie squid.
Of course, no advice on STN even matters unless it's been published in some f*cking book so I refer you to Keith COde's "No brake drill".

[scott-sts]

How can you not brake in a corner? What if you mis-judged your speed, there is something in the road, it's a decreasing radius corner? If you can't see the exit, and all of the road surface when you go into a corner you better be prepared to get on the brakes while cornering. Otherwise you are just asking for an accident.

 
I believe all of the instances you mention warrant using the brakes.

[Mr Sunshine]

I won alot a races using this technique. *shrug*

 
Which one? Trail braking or getting it all done before the corner?

[Gaolee]

He proably meant precise throttle control. My son is now learning to drive, and one thing I have been telling him is that he should use the minimum input necessary to achieve whatever it is he wants to do, be it slow down or speed up or turn. He is at the stab-stab-stab stage of vehicle control, but it applies to all of us.

[scott-sts]

Which one? Trail braking or getting it all done before the corner?

 
Getting it all done before the corner.

[jed]

Thanks Scott.  I've been working on getting off everything before the apex and back on the throttle just after.  The Duc does one hell of a job with engine braking, but I feel like I'm slowing too gradually when just engine braking coming into a turn.  In any case I'll be more vigilant about the gears.

[cbsnbiker]

How can you not brake in a corner? What if you mis-judged your speed, there is something in the road, it's a decreasing radius corner? If you can't see the exit, and all of the road surface when you go into a corner you better be prepared to get on the brakes while cornering. Otherwise you are just asking for an accident.

If you go into a turn too hot, you're creating the conditions for a potential crash.
 
If you perform braking before entering the curve that is appropriate for the riding conditions, and if life doesn't throw you a proverbial (or literal) curve, then you won't have to brake in a corner.
 
If you're not sure how much to brake before a corner, is it better to misjudge your speed on the slow side, or the fast side? If you can't see the exit, do you know what the safe entry speed is?
 
If you enter a curve on the slow side, then you have improved the chances that you can handle the decreasing radius turn, or something in the road, or whatever. I'd rather say to myself, "I could take that corner faster," than "Holy @#$%^&!." I can always go back to take the turn faster a second time.
 
Of course, one should be prepared to be able to brake in a corner. People do misjudge corners, deer do walk on roadways at inopportune moments, etc. But one should not find himself regularly braking in turns to compensate for poor judgment or unrefined skills.
 
All of this assumes street riding, of course. Tracks are a different story. And these aren't absolutes. Plenty of skilled riders can choose appropriate situations for trail braking and such.

[stewm_21]

I understand the slow in-fast out routine with good throttle control and the right gear for exit not entry.  I am still re-learning the light grip on the bars thing (especially on poor roads) and am getting better a picking the right sight line and trusting that the bike will get me there with counter-steering.
 
I guess the thing I was looking for was the discussion on accelerating to stand the bike up vs letting off the throttle to stand the bike up (which doesn't make sense to me).

[Busy Little Whiner]

Hanging Off...
Hanging a cheek off the seat works well because it sets your body in a
stable position... but you must get into that position well before you roll off
the gas... pull on the brakes or execute a steering input... hanging off and
trying to steer the bike is a common mistake...


Down Hill Decreasing radius turns :
Follow the black line in this drawing and you'll see the common
mistakes made on downhill decreasing radius turns... the rider enters
at outer edge of their lane... they start turning too early at point
(1)... they don't steer fast enough... and they end up going wide at
the mid turn point (2)... they feel panic... they tighten up on the
bars... they either drift into the on coming lane or brake and loose
control... they will warn you that decreasing radius turns are not fun and
should only be taken just above crawl speed...

Now follow the preferred red line... the rider enters the turn more to
the middle of their lane which affords a deeper line... you start the
turn in point late... you push on the bars quickly... you spot the
mid turn point and stay loose on the bars... you feel relaxed enough
to start rolling on the gas... as you hit the mid turn point you are
well within the friendly inside so feel free to give it some more berries
at point (B)... you're having fun...




Steps to corner like a pro:
 
1 Find the your corners turn in point...
2 After reaching your turn in point shift your eyes to the apex...
3 Applied one quick steering input and leave the bars alone...
4 Roll on the throttle as early as possible because the bike is now under
the rear contact patch control... the front can actually be lifted off
the ground and the bike will track on line...


Done right and next time you'll be looking to take the corner with at
least 1 more mph of speed... your bike will be stable... you'll feel in
more control... maybe even relaxed like a pro...

[scott-sts]

I understand the slow in-fast out routine with good throttle control and the right gear for exit not entry. I am still re-learning the light grip on the bars thing (especially on poor roads) and am getting better a picking the right sight line and trusting that the bike will get me there with counter-steering.
 
I guess the thing I was looking for was the discussion on accelerating to stand the bike up vs letting off the throttle to stand the bike up (which doesn't make sense to me).

 
The purpose of accelerating out of a corner isn't to necessarily stand the bike up (this happens as a natural result of getting on the gas) but to get weight shifted, or balanced towards the meatier rear tire which increases grip.  This is why I say the throttle is so important.
Letting off the gas actually makes the bike turn tighter into a turn; the front tire falls in to the turn.  Again, throttle control.  
If you get on the gas early and find the corner tightens up again (like a decreasing radius turn) simply rolling off the gas will help the bike steer.  you modulate your exit with the throttle.
Picture going around a 180 degree turn at max lean.  You are no longer steering the bike with the bars.  You are steering it with the throttle by feeding in small inputs and backing off to tighten up your line.
I can prove this theory by challenging you to find a tight, S section of pavement (a sharp right-left combo).  You can easily cut right to the first apex but now try flicking the bike over to the left WHILE STILL ON THE GAS.  Now go change your pants.  Chopping the throttle before flicking the bike left will result in a sharp turn that amazes your friends.   Just remember to get back on the gas immediately after turning so you don't wash the front.
In my experience, everyone who runs wide or worse-off the road- does so by riding in on the front tire.

[scott-sts]

Thanks Scott. I've been working on getting off everything before the apex and back on the throttle just after. The Duc does one hell of a job with engine braking, but I feel like I'm slowing too gradually when just engine braking coming into a turn. In any case I'll be more vigilant about the gears.

 
 A great technique to use is "Always be on the gas at the apex".  I offered this advice to rookie racers and have gotten good feedback.
For one, it helps teach you to find the apex of every corner which is job one.  It also helps you construct a corner from the apex out which is not only the fastest way around a race track it's also the safest way on the street.
Be on the gas at the apex, even if it's just a little bit.

[DogBoy]

A great technique to use is "Always be on the gas at the apex".  I offered this advice to rookie racers and have gotten good feedback.
For one, it helps teach you to find the apex of every corner which is job one.  It also helps you construct a corner from the apex out which is not only the fastest way around a race track it's also the safest way on the street.
Be on the gas at the apex, even if it's just a little bit.

Great advice.

[chornbe]

Stupid question time.  I've read a couple of the books but haven't taken a class.  How do you downshift going into a corner.  Says its a 4th to 2nd corner.  Do you clutch 3 / 2 clutch or do you clutch 3 clutch 2 clutch?

I find myself dropping two gears on the street with the clutch in instead of letting each gear engage and then shifting again.

4 to 2, Rev and keep the RPMs up, cluctch out smoothly.

[counselor]

Proficient motorcycling has some very good advice in cornering.  Folks here have said to get your braking done before the curve, that is correct, you do not want to be braking in the curve.  You can give it he double hockey sticks through the curve with gas if ou give yourself room, but if you are too hot you have made a major mistake.  I ride a delayed apex which means you come in high on the opposite side of the curve (close to the centerline on a right hander, close to the fog line on a left hander) and then drop into the curve.  In non track riding you can see around the curve better so it is much safer than a racing apex.  As far as gearing, use each gear to drop some speed, speed clutch it in.  If you are braking so fast you cant use the gears to drop speed you are going too fast for the street.  Some may argue with me about speed but not the guy who they pulled out from underneath a truck because he was too hot.

[jed]

never mind

[jed]

Proficient motorcycling has some very good advice in cornering...

I've read Parks, Code, Inastsaacsshdsfhashs (whatever his name is), I even found the Kenny Roberts book!  The Roberts book is the most plain spoken.

But the funny thing is none of the dang books tell you the proper technique to drop more than one gear.  I typically hit all the gears, but don't feel that it's "fast" for tight turns.  By tight turns I'm talking from 60+ to 20 at country intersections.  I don't want a knee down or anything, but I want better flow through the transition.

Chris, I generally do what said now.  Scott, I'll be working on your technique in the future.  Once in the gear I want I tend to trail brake into the corner just a bit, glide a couple of bike lengths then get back on the throttle.

I think I'll sign up for Schwantz, Bargy, or Cal Super Bike for the spring.  I had the Cal class scheduled for this past August but surgery caused me to cancel.

[JonS]

Really, the most important thing is to be smooth and stay away from the outer limit of your speed though a corner. A lot of the time I will just use momentum and almost no breaking or shifting. If it turns out that I am too hot and  I have left a large buffer, I can gently break in the turn. Mostly with the rear. Gently is the key word. When you are learning, especially on the road, stay well within your comfort zone. As you learn, you will gradually increase speed and still ride smoothly.

[Mr Sunshine]

A great technique to use is "Always be on the gas at the apex". I offered this advice to rookie racers and have gotten good feedback.
For one, it helps teach you to find the apex of every corner which is job one. It also helps you construct a corner from the apex out which is not only the fastest way around a race track it's also the safest way on the street.
Be on the gas at the apex, even if it's just a little bit.

 
As a rookie racer I totally agree with this advice.

[Thor]

The purpose of accelerating out of a corner isn't to necessarily stand the bike up (this happens as a natural result of getting on the gas) but to get weight shifted, or balanced towards the meatier rear tire which increases grip.  This is why I say the throttle is so important.
Letting off the gas actually makes the bike turn tighter into a turn; the front tire falls in to the turn.  Again, throttle control.  
If you get on the gas early and find the corner tightens up again (like a decreasing radius turn) simply rolling off the gas will help the bike steer.  you modulate your exit with the throttle.
Picture going around a 180 degree turn at max lean.  You are no longer steering the bike with the bars.  You are steering it with the throttle by feeding in small inputs and backing off to tighten up your line.
I can prove this theory by challenging you to find a tight, S section of pavement (a sharp right-left combo).  You can easily cut right to the first apex but now try flicking the bike over to the left WHILE STILL ON THE GAS.  Now go change your pants.  Chopping the throttle before flicking the bike left will result in a sharp turn that amazes your friends.   Just remember to get back on the gas immediately after turning so you don't wash the front.
In my experience, everyone who runs wide or worse-off the road- does so by riding in on the front tire.

I both disagree and agree with everything you say.  This is the beginner's section and what you are talking about can be the absolutely wrong thing to do in certain situations.  Some of the things you say will work well at one speed, but not as well at others.  It is a matter of degrees and having the feeling aquired from many miles of experience.

For the beginning rider who wants to go out and learn how to turn and control their bike, I recommend Keith Code's Twist of The Wrist II.

You will have to read it many times over.  He makes you work for it, but you will get it in a way that leaves no doubt and becomes ingrained in your head.

Then, as you get more miles, you will start to modify your approach and adjust to specific conditions at specific speeds.  

Without the basic fundamentals, riders tend to ride based on their inability to make proper judgements - if I didn't fall down, it must be right.  Couple this with an immunity or ignorance of the risk and you get the classic wrecked rider and bike with less than 1,000 miles on the odometer.

[Bodhi]

We want to help people learn how to corner. Not ride their bikes in a parking lot at 10-15mph where what you do there doesn't translate very well to taking a corner at 60mph.

I doubt the cacophony of thoughts here is going to help a fledgling rider learn how to corner better. Best get himself to some kind of riding school. If not MSF's ERC then some kind of track school. Honestly - you think the mish-mosh of ideas here is really that helpful? I'm sure some of the guys here know what they're talking about, but I'll bet a few don't. I've been riding a while but I don't think I'm ready to give out advice on cornering at 60 mpg to a relative newb. Hopefully he won't get all of his advice on things like this off the internet. Trying out one bad idea here could end one up in the hospital with a destroyed bike. That was my point.

[Scratch33]

Anyone here seen the "Ride Like A Pro" DVD?
 
http://www.ridelikeapro.com/

[cbsnbiker]

Anyone here seen the "Ride Like A Pro" DVD?
 
http://www.ridelikeapro.com/

Part of it, yes.

[stewm_21]

I am enjoying reading these tips and will think about some of this stuff when the snow is gone.  I do plan on taking yet another course in the spring.  I did the basic before I picked up the new bike as I hadn't been on a bike for ~18 years and then followed with an Advanced cruiser/touring day.  Now it's all about being smoother and gaining confidence and these tips will help.  Thanks.

[Lon]

Lee Parks' "Total Control"
 
Reading alone isn't enough of course. But I purport that reading one of the experts (Nick or Lee's stuff) is a more prudent start than listening to strangers on an internet forum.

Right on.

Though, BLS also posted a wise tip on downhill, decreasing radius curves which is also useful (looked like a repost from STNv1)

[scott-sts]

Right on.
 
Though, BLS also posted a wise tip on downhill, decreasing radius curves which is also useful (looked like a repost from STNv1)

 
 
Most of BLS's content is "Repost".
Over & over & over & over...

[Beach Boy]

Yes, "Sport riding techniques" by Nick Ientasch or "Total Control" by Lee Parks will explain it much more clearly than anyone here.

I'd have to agree, these 2 books are excellent resources, with Lee Parks being the better choice for a new rider (one with less than 3 - 5 years experience on the street)

[andmoon]

After understanding all the theory....

Practice on a bike w/ soft long travel suspension if you can....it amplifies the effects of throttle and braking.

I have to be more spot on on my 86 airhead than I do on my 03 sv....modern suspensions (even those considered marginal) are good at hiding bad inputs.

Fat radials vs skinny bias ply tires &
chain/belt vs non levered shaft drives
are other things to take into account as well.

[Mr Sunshine]

I doubt the cacophony of thoughts here is going to help a fledgling rider learn how to corner better. Best get himself to some kind of riding school. If not MSF's ERC then some kind of track school. Honestly - you think the mish-mosh of ideas here is really that helpful? I'm sure some of the guys here know what they're talking about, but I'll bet a few don't. I've been riding a while but I don't think I'm ready to give out advice on cornering at 60 mpg to a relative newb. Hopefully he won't get all of his advice on things like this off the internet. Trying out one bad idea here could end one up in the hospital with a destroyed bike. That was my point.

Yes I agree going to some kind of riding school. What I was specifically talking about was the constent "Go to a MSF course" no matter what the riding question asked.

[black hills]

Yes I agree going to some kind of riding school. What I was specifically talking about was the constent "Go to a MSF course" no matter what the riding question asked.

While a riding school would be great, it is not always a possibility. Geographic location and financial status shouldn't be the difference in whether you learn to ride or not. There are a lot of great riders who learned on their own, or from advice taken from friends over a few beers. Any semi-intelligent person should be able to take the advise given here, hit the twisties and figure out what works and what doesn't. I don't see anything here that would cause one to crash? Riding is all about learning how to work as one with the machine. Nobody can teach you that if you don't get out there and do it. Practice, practice, practice...

[Corwin]

Cornering on the street is described well in Proficient Motorcycling.  I am just reading Twist of the Wrist 2 and it has tons of info on cornering.  There is a whole chapter on throttle control.  I think a lot of the principles could be applied on the street without having to go race track speeds.  I find that coasting through turns clearly feels less stable than applying the throttle gradually throught the turn.  Hopefully, I will be able to practice on the track next summer.

[ssmith]

Yes I agree going to some kind of riding school. What I was specifically talking about was the constent "Go to a MSF course" no matter what the riding question asked.

This is a BEGINNERS topic section.  If a person has not had any rider training,  a MSF Course is a very good first step.  10-25 MPH in a parking lot is the perfect controlled environment for learning the skills & techniques all riders must have and then put into practice before moving on to more advanced types of rider training.

[Mr Sunshine]

the context of my statement has been lost but it was in response to asking if he should go down two gears without letting the clutch in or do each gear at a time.

a riding school is very important for that.  Going 10-25mph in a parking lot lets you get into 2nd gear and that's it.

[bikerfish1100]

actually, the BRC has students shifting between 2nd & 3rd gear to teach smooth shifting without use of brakes, near the end of the first day of riding.

just trying to inject some facts into your opinions.  
and for stew- an ERC is probably not going to to give him all that he wants with improving cornering techniques.

[R1150RTMark]

Two critical thoughts are in my mind as I corner that have helped me more than anything. 1) Head up and eyes focused far ahead through the curve.  2) Lean head and shoulders (with elbows slightly bent) toward the inside - as if I'm looking 'around' a door.

Third thought is more a preparation thought - get all the braking done in a straight line and get on the throttle at least slightly as soon as I start my lean (as others have said - to 'set' the rear suspension).

[Mr Sunshine]

That's nice....3rd gear at 20mph equals a motor that is barely idling.  You can ham fist the clutch and still be smooth shifting.  FYI: In my BRC we never offically got into 3rd gear.

 

The BRC is good if you have never been on a bike before.  The ERC is good for a few months of experience. After that there is a HUGE gap and you are on your own without the tools required to survive on the street.  There is a local track school called 2-Fast.  In their beginner level they do a good job but this is about the closes you are going to get as to the next step.  The problem is too many people believe that just because you go to the track it doesn't apply to the street so they are unwilling to take a school like it.

I have done both the ERC and the BRC. I took the BRC in the pouring rain a few months after I first got a bike.  I took the ERC about 18 months later in pretty decent weather.  I did the BRC so I could get my license earlier and I got above 95% on both the written and riding portions of the test.  In the ERC I passed with a 100%.  I can honestly tell you I didn't learn anything new in them.

So unless you can't tell....I don't have the super high opinion of the BRC and ERC that many people here have.

[bikerfish1100]

 FYI: In my BRC we never offically got into 3rd gear.

 

FYI- sounds like what you took was NOT the BRC, but one of its predecessors. the BRC has been in place since about 2002, at the very earliest.

and yeah, the disdain you hold for the MSF training programs is pretty obvious. pity, because as a training program for a "never been on any kind of bike at all" student, it's pretty damn good. certainly not the "be all and end all", but a great place to start.

[Mr Sunshine]

FYI- sounds like what you took was NOT the BRC, but one of its predecessors. the BRC has been in place since about 2002, at the very earliest.

and yeah, the disdain you hold for the MSF training programs is pretty obvious. pity, because as a training program for a "never been on any kind of bike at all" student, it's pretty damn good. certainly not the "be all and end all", but a great place to start.

This was in 2001 so you are right I didn't take the BRC...but I did take the ERC the first time that instructor has taught it to the public.

I don't have a distain for MSF.  I have a distain for those people who place the MSF on the pedastel as the end all be all for all of your riding skill learning needs.  When it is not that.

I agree the BRC is a good class for those who have never been in control of a motorcycle themselves before.  But to anyone with more experience than that the BRC is not useful.

Once you have obtained a couple months of experience sure the ERC is good. Beyond that, again not useful.

So I'll presume by your response you are a MSF instructor.  Am I correct?

[bikerfish1100]

RiderCoach for 5 years.
you might be surprised how many riders come in, with years of skills, who pretty well suck azz as riders. real basic stuff they never got- slow speed head turns, looking to where you want to go, actual countersteering (as opposed to throwing shoulders around), etc.
and for many riders, the ERC is a good refresher/reintroduction as to what you should be doing. not everyone "lives" motorcycles, ya know?

[Mr Sunshine]

RiderCoach for 5 years.
you might be surprised how many riders come in, with years of skills, who pretty well suck azz as riders. real basic stuff they never got- slow speed head turns, looking to where you want to go, actual countersteering (as opposed to throwing shoulders around), etc.
and for many riders, the ERC is a good refresher/reintroduction as to what you should be doing. not everyone "lives" motorcycles, ya know?

Yes I know...and i'll point to exhibit A in my previous statement:

"I agree the BRC is a good class for those who have never been in control of a motorcycle themselves before.  But to anyone with more experience than that the BRC is not useful."

I'll argue they were never "in control of a motorcycle" in the first place.

[Mr Sunshine]

BTW: Just an example of something my instructor in my "BRC" corrected me on which is actually correct way of riding which I didn't know until a couple of years ago.

When I was turning I was putting my inside knee out a little bit and pointing it the direction I wanted to go.  I wasn't hanging off or anything but he scolded me on that technique when it is actually a good technique if you know why you are doing it.  Now if he told me "That technique is something you'll learn when you get some experience and until then keep your knees squeezing against the tank" that would have been MUCH better.

[shah269]

I started following a thread in STn v1 about cornering techniques, basically asking the best way enter and exit a corner and how to stand up/lean in the bike and change direction to avoid stuff.  
 
Talk among yourselves, I'll follow along as will others I'm sure.

What are we still talking about this!
Come on turning is the best part of riding!
Well that and maybe showing off to those dudes in minivans and reminding then how much their lives really suck!
So you want to learn how to turn hu? So your just tired of being called a Squid hu?
Ok here is the gig, there are two ways to turn.
The right way and the fun way!
The right way involves being all proper and tight upper lipped and doing a little counter seer, pushing the inside controls a little causing the bike to lean into the corner while keeping your eyes on the apex while keeping the throttle steady up to the apex and then giving a little gas as you go threw the apex. Then pulling the inside controls which cause the bike to come back up.
All the while sitting all tall and proper with your shoulders square and your legs tight agents the tank with both your feet firmly planted on the pegs with your toes slightly down. You know the usual push pull stuff!
That's the proper way to turn but lets be honest its boring!

And you my friend are not the boring type are you! Your the leather wearing, soccer mom heart breaking kick ass take names later guy who drinks Mc Donald's milk shakes straight from the cup instead of using the straw! Oh yah!

So this is what you do, say your coming up to a nice left hander. To those in square states, you can utilize an intersection at Wall Mart. About 100m (333.333ft) from the corner you down shift so that your just a hair under the max torque of the bike, say 6k rpm and are now engine breaking as you come to the corner. You take a quick look at the nearest soccer mom in her pistachio colored mini van with the 4 dozen kids in the back screaming bloody murder and you flip her a smile and a thumbs up. Which instantly cause her to have the orgasm of a life time. Then at 50m (150ft) from the corner you move both your fat ass cheeks off the seat and to the left, i.e. the inside of the corner. So if you were going right you would move your fat ass to the right of the seat. Now  your ass is hanging off the bike and your right thigh is where your ass would have been and your right toe is just touching the break. Now move your shoulders over the gas tank so that the center of your chest is to the left side of the gas tank, all the while your dropping your left shoulder as if you were some sort of leather clad line backer about ready to take out that prissy wussy quarter back! At 25m (as screw it you do the calculation!) pull your right controls and and push with the left controls, the bike will start to lean in do to all that fun and kinky counter steering crap every one is talking about.  

Now you are looking cool! Like a sick demented monkey, your hanging off the bike, smile from ear to ear laughing like a mad man.  Now all you need to do is look threw the corner at the hot POA soccer mom standing at the apex showing you her tities. By doing this your looking threw the corner! Which brings up all that target fixation but thats all for another time.
But the key thing to remember is that all the while you were engine breaking up to and to the apex. And now you've come up to the apex (apex, that's the center of the corner where all the hot scantily clad chicks hang out!) and now its time to have fun.

Add more weight to the inside peg and gun the gas which causes your rear tire to break loose and spin like a top. Now your cool! Now your a man, now your drifting threw the apex like a Squid on crack! When the rear breaks don't worry, the bike will lean a little it further into the corner  and the ass of the bike will kick out a little. But that's all ok because right about then that hot soccer mom  in that dam minivan, just had another orgasm and is considering leaving her looser mini van driving husband for you!
 
Now here is the tricky fun kinky part, after you go threw the apex with your rear tire on fire pull on the inside controls, push the outside controlls and pull your fat ass back on the seat and slowly move your chest to the center of the tank. If you do this right you will still be going sideways and your rear tire will still be free spinning and 9/10 girl with in 5 miles will have had multiple orgasms.

And if you've done it right you should be centered on your bike. If not you will be climbing the invisible ladder as you high side into the nearest Star Bucks! But if your cool like the rest of us your now centered on the bike with the rear kicked out to the right a little, slowly roll off the gas until the rear tire catches a little then gun it again, and pick up your front tire about 6 inches and give a thumbs up to the other hot POA soccer mom on the other side of the road and ride off into the sunset!

And that's how you turn!
Any questions?

[Thor]

What are we still talking about this!
Come on turning is the best part of riding!
Well that and maybe showing off to those dudes in minivans and reminding then how much their lives really suck!
So you want to learn how to turn hu? So your just tired of being called a Squid hu?
Ok here is the gig, there are two ways to turn.
The right way and the fun way!
The right way involves being all proper and tight upper lipped and doing a little counter seer, pushing the inside controls a little causing the bike to lean into the corner while keeping your eyes on the apex while keeping the throttle steady up to the apex and then giving a little gas as you go threw the apex. Then pulling the inside controls which cause the bike to come back up.
All the while sitting all tall and proper with your shoulders square and your legs tight agents the tank with both your feet firmly planted on the pegs with your toes slightly down.
That's the proper way to turn but lets be honest its boring!
And you my friend are not the boring type are you!
Your the leather wearing, soccer mom heart breaking kick ass take names later guy who drinks Mc Donald's milk shakes straight from the cup instead of using the straw! Oh yah!
So this is what you do, say your coming up to a nice left hander. To those in square states, you can utilize an intersection at Wall Mart.
About 100m (333.333ft) from the corner you down shift so that your just a hair under the max torque of the bike, say 6k rpm and are now engine breaking as you come to the corner. You take a quick look at the nearest soccer mom in her pistachio colored mini van with the 4 dozen kids in the back screaming bloody murder and you flip her a smile and a thumbs up. Which instantly cause her to have the orgasm of a life time. Then at 50m (150ft) from the corner you move both your fat ass cheeks to the left, i.e. the inside of the corner. So if you were going right you would move your fat ass to the right of the seat. Now  your ass is hanging off the bike and your right thigh is where your ass would have been and your right toe is just touching the break. Now move your shoulders over the gas tank so that the center of your chest at the left side of the gas tank, all the while your dropping your shoulder as if you were some sort of leather clad line backer about ready to take out that prissy wussy quarter back! At 25m (as screw it you do the calculation!) pull your right controls and the bike will start to lean in do to all that fun and kinky counter steering crap every one is talking about.  Now you are looking cool! Like a sick demented monkey your hanging off the bike, now all you need to do is look threw the corner at the hot POA soccer mom standing at the apex. By doing this your looking threw the corner! But remember all the while you were engine breaking. Now you've come up to the apex (apex, that's the center of the corner where all the hot scantily clad chicks hang out!) and now its time to have fun. Add more weight to the inside peg and gun the gas which causes your rear tire to break loose and spin like a top. Now your cool! Now your a man, now your drifting threw the apex like a Squid on crack! When the rear breaks don't worry, the bike will lean a little it further into the corner  and the ass of the bike will kick out a little. But that's all ok because right about then that hot soccer mom just had another orgasm and is considering leaving her looser mini van driving husband for you!
Now here is the tricky fun kinky part, after you go threw the apex with your rear tire on fire pull on the inside controls and pull your fat ass back on the seat and slowly move your chest to the center of the tank. If you do this right you will kind of still be going sideways and your rear tire will still be free spinning and 9/10 girl with in 5 miles will have had multiple orgasms.
And if you've done it right you should be centered on your bike. If not you will be climbing the invisible ladder as you high side into the nearest Star Bucks! But if your cool like the rest of us your now centered on the bike with the rear kicked out to the right a little, slowly roll off the gas until the rear tire catches a little then gun it again, and pick up your front tire about 6 inches and give a thumbs up to the other hot POA soccer mom on the other side of the road and ride off into the sunset!

And that's how you turn!
Any questions?

I'm sure there is some interesting stuff in there, but I don't read things without punctuation and paragraphs.

[shah269]

I'm sure there is some interesting stuff in there, but I don't read things without punctuation and paragraphs.

WHAT! I had plenty of !!!! and ???? and a few of ..... and a bit of ,,,,,  

[andmoon]

100m~110 yards  so your 33.333 is off!

[shah269]

So whats 33ft among friends?

[andmoon]

So whats 33ft among friends?

W/ me (or was it the SO ) every 1/16 inch counts!

[njguy]

Get a dirt bike with crappy tires and go riding in a wet, grassy field. You'll learn all about counter steering, throttle control, braking, weight transfer, looking ahead, staying loose/relaxed and picking up a dropped bike. Wonder how Nicky can throttle steer at 150+ mph? He started by dirt riding, then racing and working up to that speed. I'll never be any kind of racer but I don't freak when one of the ends starts to slip a little.

[black hills]

Get a dirt bike with crappy tires and go riding in a wet, grassy field. You'll learn all about counter steering, throttle control, braking, weight transfer, looking ahead, staying loose/relaxed and picking up a dropped bike. Wonder how Nicky can throttle steer at 150+ mph? He started by dirt riding, then racing and working up to that speed. I'll never be any kind of racer but I don't freak when one of the ends starts to slip a little.

Exactly right. A lot of top roadracers spend time on flattrackers and supermoto bikes. Riding on the dirt is by far the best way to learn to ride or improve your skills. If you have never fallen down, how do you know how close to the edge you are?

[stewm_21]

shah269...that was awesome, I can't tell if you write for Playboy or National Lampoon but that was a great writeup, can you tell me how to do a stoppie next?  I've got the perfect parking lot at the local WallMart that I can't wait to hit.

[Windblown]

shah269...that was awesome, I can't tell if you write for Playboy or National Lampoon but that was a great writeup, can you tell me how to do a stoppie next?  I've got the perfect parking lot at the local WallMart that I can't wait to hit.

   Notice how little space the mention of a high-side ate up?  Funny stuff though!  

[shah269]

shah269...that was awesome, I can't tell if you write for Playboy or National Lampoon but that was a great writeup, can you tell me how to do a stoppie next?  I've got the perfect parking lot at the local WallMart that I can't wait to hit.

Look man I've owned two bikes a white, yah white, dish washer May freaking tag dude its white 87 700VFR
And now a dam that thing is freaking huge look at the size of that dam thing what is it a limo Spinal Tap Black GPZ-1100
The VFR had really skinny forks and the GPZ is a fat piggy. I'm told if one attempts stoppies on a 96 Dam! that thing is black! like really black!  GPZ-1100 the space time continuum would fold in up on its self and horrible things will happen.
The last time this was attempted the ever sexy Janet Jackson, dam why is she realted to that crazy brother of hers, fell for that, what the hell is that a tan mini mi with bad teeth, Germain Dupree.
But every one thought it was some sort of joke and or just a fluke or that Mr. Dupree must be packing some sort of large caliber howitzer. Thus so a Mr. Bob Jones, BJ for short, of north, god dam that's one flat ass piece of land Texas attempted another stoppie on his plum crazy you have to have big balls to ride a purple bike like that boy GPZ sighting the fact that he hadn't seen a decent curve in ages.
The consequences of his actions are still being felt today, note Pam dam look at them hooter Anderson and her on again off again engagement with, there is some thing wrong with that white boy and where did his little buddy go Kid Rock and the appearance of melonen in wow this is got to be the whitest state in the union Utah.
Thus I'm sorry but at the moment I can't tell you how to do stoppie!
For at the moment I'm not allowed to attempt one on my current, dam what is that a limo or some thing GPZ.
But from what I'm told when doing a stoppie, or otherwise affectionally known in repair circles" that will be $300 for those blown fork seals sir", will cause the erogenous zone of nearby women to not only expand %300 but to engulf most of the empty parking lot. Further more her G spot will actually be visible from space due to the argon  lazer which will be emitted from it. Thus assuring you, wow he rocked my world status among the many scantally leather clad hunnies in micro minis which often frequent these parking lots hoping to pick up the occasional gold filling in order to pay for their training in massage therapy class.

[Thor]

Look man I've owned two bikes a white, yah white, dish washer May freaking tag dude its white 87 700VFR
And now a dam that thing is freaking huge look at the size of that dam thing what is it a limo Spinal Tap Black GPZ-1100
The VFR had really skinny forks and the GPZ is a fat piggy. I'm told if one attempts stoppies on a 96 Dam! that thing is black! like really black!  GPZ-1100 the space time continuum would fold in up on its self and horrible things will happen.
The last time this was attempted the ever sexy Janet Jackson, dam why is she realted to that crazy brother of hers, fell for that, what the hell is that a tan mini mi with bad teeth, Germain Dupree.
But every one thought it was some sort of joke and or just a fluke or that Mr. Dupree must be packing some sort of large caliber howitzer. Thus so a Mr. Bob Jones, BJ for short, of north, god dam that's one flat ass piece of land Texas attempted another stoppie on his plum crazy you have to have big balls to ride a purple bike like that boy GPZ sighting the fact that he hadn't seen a decent curve in ages.
The consequences of his actions are still being felt today, note Pam dam look at them hooter Anderson and her on again off again engagement with, there is some thing wrong with that white boy and where did his little buddy go Kid Rock and the appearance of melonen in wow this is got to be the whitest state in the union Utah.
Thus I'm sorry but at the moment I can't tell you how to do stoppie!
For at the moment I'm not allowed to attempt one on my current, dam what is that a limo or some thing GPZ.
But from what I'm told when doing a stoppie, or otherwise affectionally known in repair circles" that will be $300 for those blown fork seals sir", will cause the erogenous zone of nearby women to not only expand %300 but to engulf most of the empty parking lot. Further more her G spot will actually be visible from space due to the argon  lazer which will be emitted from it. Thus assuring you, wow he rocked my world status among the many scantally leather clad hunnies in micro minis which often frequent these parking lots hoping to pick up the occasional gold filling in order to pay for their training in massage therapy class.

This is why being a "friend of Tina" is bad.

[andmoon]

Look man I've owned two bikes a white, yah white, dish washer May freaking tag dude its white 87 700VFR
And now a dam that thing is freaking huge look at the size of that dam thing what is it a limo Spinal Tap Black GPZ-1100
The VFR had really skinny forks and the GPZ is a fat piggy. I'm told if one attempts stoppies on a 96 Dam! that thing is black! like really black!  GPZ-1100 the space time continuum would fold in up on its self and horrible things will happen.
The last time this was attempted the ever sexy Janet Jackson, dam why is she realted to that crazy brother of hers, fell for that, what the hell is that a tan mini mi with bad teeth, Germain Dupree.
But every one thought it was some sort of joke and or just a fluke or that Mr. Dupree must be packing some sort of large caliber howitzer. Thus so a Mr. Bob Jones, BJ for short, of north, god dam that's one flat ass piece of land Texas attempted another stoppie on his plum crazy you have to have big balls to ride a purple bike like that boy GPZ sighting the fact that he hadn't seen a decent curve in ages.
The consequences of his actions are still being felt today, note Pam dam look at them hooter Anderson and her on again off again engagement with, there is some thing wrong with that white boy and where did his little buddy go Kid Rock and the appearance of melonen in wow this is got to be the whitest state in the union Utah.
Thus I'm sorry but at the moment I can't tell you how to do stoppie!
For at the moment I'm not allowed to attempt one on my current, dam what is that a limo or some thing GPZ.
But from what I'm told when doing a stoppie, or otherwise affectionally known in repair circles" that will be $300 for those blown fork seals sir", will cause the erogenous zone of nearby women to not only expand %300 but to engulf most of the empty parking lot. Further more her G spot will actually be visible from space due to the argon  lazer which will be emitted from it. Thus assuring you, wow he rocked my world status among the many scantally leather clad hunnies in micro minis which often frequent these parking lots hoping to pick up the occasional gold filling in order to pay for their training in massage therapy class.

How about rolling burnouts?

[shah269]

This is why being a "friend of Tina" is bad.

Tina?  

[dinolee]

Tina?  

yeah, Tina. FOT.  Conky's favorite kind of person.