Oilsands, the great Satan?

[birdrunner]

My new job is strongly affected my the oilsands, so I thought this article was interesting.

Fascinating article by Lisa  Corbella of the Calgary Herald.
Quebec and  the Fairy Godmother

Today,  let's have some fun and play Fairy Godmother to Quebec . Let's grant  the province the wish it articulated in Copenhagen . Wave the magic  wand and poof, wish granted. Shut down Alberta 's oilsands,  except, since it's Quebec making the wish, we have to call it tarsands,  even though it's not tar they use to run their Bombardier planes,  trains and Skidoos.

Ah, at last! The blight on Canada 's reputation  shut down. All those dastardly workers from across Canada living in  Fort McMurray , Calgary and Edmonton out of jobs, including those  waitresses, truck drivers, nurses, teachers, doctors, pilots, engineers  etc. They can all go on Employment insurance like Ontario autoworkers  and Quebec parts makers!
Closing down Alberta 's oil industry would  immediately stop the production of 1.8 million barrels of oil a day.  Supply and demand being what it is, oil prices will go up and therefore  the cost at the pump will go up, too, increasing the cost of everything  else.

But lost jobs in Alberta and across the country along  with higher gas prices are a small price to pay to save the world and  not "embarrass" Quebecers on the world stage. Not to worry though,  Saudi Arabia, Libya and Nigeria can come to the rescue. You know, the  guys who pump money into al-Qaida and help Osama bin Laden target those  Van Doos fighting in Afghanistan . Bloody oil is so much nicer than  dirty tarsands oil.
Shutting down the oilsands will reduce Canada  's greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions by 38.4 Mt (megatonnes). Hooray! It's  so fun to be a Fairy Godmother! While that sounds like a lot, Canada  only produces two per cent of the world's man-made GHGs and the  oilsands only produce five per cent of Canada 's total emissions or 0.1  per cent of the world's emissions. By comparison, the U.S. produces  20.2 per cent of the world's GHG emissions, 27 per cent of which  comes from coal-fired electricity.

The 530-square-kilometre  piece of land currently disturbed by the oilsands (which is smaller  than the John F. Kennedy Space Center at Cape Canaveral , Fla. at 570  square kilometres) must be reclaimed by law and will return to Alberta  's 381,000 square kilometres of boreal forest, a huge carbon  sink.

Quebec , of course, has clean hydro power, but more  than 13,000 square kilometres were drowned for the James Bay  hydroelectric project, permanently removing that forest from acting as  a carbon sink.

But Fairy Godmother is digressing all over the  place. While the oilsands only produce five per cent of Canada 's GHGs,  it contributes  much more  to Canada 's economy. After all, oil and gas make up one-quarter of the  value on the TSX alone. Alberta is also the largest net contributor  per capita by far to Confederation and there are only two more -- B.C.  and Ontario ..

Quebec hasn't made a net contribution to the rest  of Canada for a very long time. This is not to be critical (after all,  Fairy Godmothers never criticize), it's just a fact. In 2009, Albertans  paid $40.46 billion in income, corporate and other taxes to the  federal government and received back just $19.35 billion in services  and goods from the feds. That means the rest of Canada got $21.1  billion from Albertans or $5,742 for each and every Alberta man, woman  and child. In 2007 (the last year national figures are available),  Alberta sent a net contribution of $19.49 billion to the ROC or $5,553  per Albertan -- more than three times what every Ontarian contributes  at $1,757. Quebecers, on the other hand, each received $627 net or a  total of $8 billion, money which was designed to help "equalize" social  programs across the country. Except, that's not what is happening.  Quebec has more generous social programs like (nearly) free university  tuition (paid for mostly by Albertans) and cheap provincial day care  (paid for mostly by Albertans).

But in this Fairy Godmother world,  poof, those delightful unequal programs have now disappeared! Quel  dommage!

The July 2009 Canadian Energy Research Institute  (CERI) report states that between 2008 and 2032, the oilsands will  account for 172,000 person-years of employment in Ontario during the  construction phase, plus 640,000 for operations over the 25-year  period. For Quebec , the oilsands will account for 84,000 person-years  of employment during the construction phase, plus 292,000 for  operations over the 25-year period.
In total, the oilsands are  expected to add $1.7 trillion to Canada 's GDP over the next 25  years.

Wave wand and Poof, Jobs, gone! So, now that the  oil industry has shut down and left Alberta , Alberta has become a  have-not province and so has every other province. Equality at last!  Hugo Chavez will be so pleased.
Meeting our Copenhagen targets  suddenly looks possible, as most of us can't afford to drive our cars  or buy anything but necessities, so manufacturers have closed their  doors and emissions are way down.

The dream of many Quebecers to  form their own nation and separate from Canada has died at last. Alas,  in Alberta , separatist sentiment has risen dramatically, citizens vote  to separate and the oil and gas industry returns.
Albertans  start to pocket that almost $6,000 for each person that used to get  sent elsewhere and now their kids get free tuition. Fairy Godmother's  work is done. Wish granted.. Quebecers must now sign up for a foreign  worker visas to work in Alberta to send their cheques back home  so junior can start saving up to pay for  college.

What caught my attention was the figures on how much airable land is covered by hydro dams vs the area of oilsand developement.  ....  I wonder how much carbon those areas would have absorbed.

[blkhrt81]

I may run a little off topic here but I got a couple thoughts on this article, like, has Lisa Corbella ever been to Quebec and talked to some Quebecois about what they think about Fort Mac? Or is she just blathering on about a press release from some fat cat with a mission who represents exactly .001 of popular sentiment?
We have been practically programmed in the west to believe Quebec is a freeloader on Confederation, they want to shut us down, etc etc. Disproportionate influence on the federal government and on and on ad nauseum.
Well, I have rambled a bit in the last few years, seen the midnight sun in Siberia, got drunk in Moscow,rode the M13 through the Ukraine and the most important thing I've learned......most of what I had been told about the rest of the world was just flat wrong. So anytime I hear somebody talking about what THEY want, I ask  myself " Do you really KNOW that's what THEY want are are you just blowin' smoke to sell papers?"
My apologies for this interruption, we now return you to your regularly scheduled program

[veefer800canuck]

Hey, there has been an ecological disaster lurking beneath Fort Mcmurray for tens of thousands of years, and we're just now getting around to cleaning it up!

We're cleaning the sand, see? Removing all that nasty oil from it and making it shiny clean again!

 

[birdrunner]

Hey, there has been an ecological disaster lurking beneath Fort Mcmurray for tens of thousands of years, and we're just now getting around to cleaning it up!

We're cleaning the sand, see? Removing all that nasty oil from it and making it shiny clean again!

 

That's my take on it.

[Ack535]

Hey, there has been an ecological disaster lurking beneath Fort Mcmurray for tens of thousands of years, and we're just now getting around to cleaning it up!

We're cleaning the sand, see? Removing all that nasty oil from it and making it shiny clean again!

 

That is a brilliant thought that the "whacko enviormentalists" can't argue with! Well done!

[jp]

Yeahhh... There are no smarts left in the political world! That's a brilliant solution to cleaning up the tar sands! Actually, now you can probably export shiny sand to somewhere and double dip on the project!
In Sydney here, we've just spent a zillion dollars in Federal money cleaning up OUR little oil project. They called it the Tar Ponds, and it was supposed to be the most polluted spot in Canada. Years of dumping waste from steel making and coke burning and lobster boiling or something...
Anyhoo... The magic solution? Pour concrete all over it and hide it 'permanently'. Seemed like a good idea to somebody.
Damn! We could have imported tar sands technology, pumped out all the 'tar' and turned it into hi-test!
I wonder if it's too late to tunnel under the concrete and get at the good stuff??

[PatM]

Just a precision on the submerged land in Quebec. Yes, forests were cut down to create those huge reservoirs but they're not inert as far as carbon sink. Land vegetation has been replaced by underwater vegetation. And it's not arable land, at all. Arable land is limited to the lower 10% of the province, much like in the rest of Canada.

By the way, the big mouth Ms Corbella refers to is the Quebec Premier. He's trying is to save whatever he has left of his reputation. But that is another matter that should be in PO.  

And no most Quebecois don't think the oil (tar) sands are the big Satan.

[birdrunner]

Just a precision on the submerged land in Quebec. Yes, forests were cut down to create those huge reservoirs but they're not inert as far as carbon sink. Land vegetation has been replaced by underwater vegetation. And it's not arable land, at all. Arable land is limited to the lower 10% of the province, much like in the rest of Canada.

By the way, the big mouth Ms Corbella refers to is the Quebec Premier. He's trying is to save whatever he has left of his reputation. But that is another matter that should be in PO.  

And no most Quebecois don't think the oil (tar) sands are the big Satan.

If you're going to be reasonable, we're going to have to put you on ignore.


BTW,,, do underwater plants remove carbon from the air?

[PatM]

If you're going to be reasonable, we're going to have to put you on ignore.


BTW,,, do underwater plants remove carbon from the air?

  I promise, I won't behave anymore. 

ps Plants convert carbon dioxide in the photosynthesis process. The sea is actually a bigger carbon sink than all the world's forests combined.

[Kootenanny]

Interesting (and fun) article, Bird.

Myself, I fall somewhere between the two extremes.  I understand completely the importance of Alberta's oil industry to Alberta and the rest of Canada.  I'm also aware of the difficulty and cost of extracting oil from the "oil sands."  It's quite different from just sticking a pipe into the ground and letting the "sweet crude" flow up, the way they do in the Middle East and Texas (you're not likely to have a "gusher" anywhere near Fort Mac...). AFAIK, it can take the better part of a barrel of oil in energy to extract two barrels from the oil sands, depending on the technology (this is why the environmentalists complain about the oil sands--not just because of the oil extraction, but because of the energy being expended to extract it).  

Hey, I don't have any answers, and I tend to view oil sands development as a "good thing" overall (despite living here in Hippie Heaven...).  But dammit...dammit, it'd be nice if there was a "better way" (whatever that may be).

[Baz]

As I am a minority stakeholder in 3 oilsands operations, when I discuss the evils of my operations with those who deplore them, I just ask that they demonstrate their distaste by discontinuing their personal use of all petroleum products.

(That includes the use of protest buses)  

None have ever taken this step.

[veefer800canuck]

Eggszachary.

Before you start preaching, you better live like Grizzly fucking Adams.

Anyone who ballyhoos about dirty oil and such better be prepared to move right the fuck back to the middle ages.

No plastic, no trains, no planes, no bicycles, no computers, Ipods, internet, central heating, refrigerators, X-rays, MRI's, air conditioning, etc.

Go back to being a hunter-gatherer and making EVERYTHING you need right outta the earth without the benefit of crude oil.

Because without oil, that's right where we'd be. Can't make Solar Panels without OIL. Can't build giant dams and hydroelectric projects without OIL, can't manufacture and erect wind turbines without OIL.

yadda yadda yadda

[Hardware]

Eggszachary.

Before you start preaching, you better live like Grizzly fucking Adams.

Anyone who ballyhoos about dirty oil and such better be prepared to move right the fuck back to the middle ages.

No plastic, no trains, no planes, no bicycles, no computers, Ipods, internet, central heating, refrigerators, X-rays, MRI's, air conditioning, etc.

Go back to being a hunter-gatherer and making EVERYTHING you need right outta the earth without the benefit of crude oil.

Because without oil, that's right where we'd be. Can't make Solar Panels without OIL. Can't build giant dams and hydroelectric projects without OIL, can't manufacture and erect wind turbines without OIL.

yadda yadda yadda

Still have to plug that EV into the grid to recharge its batteries...

...the batteries had to be manufactured from raw materials shipped from source locations to factories...at the end of their lifecycle the toxic contents of the batteries have to be disposed of...

[Kootenanny]

Still have to plug that EV into the grid to recharge its batteries...

...the batteries had to be manufactured from raw materials shipped from source locations to factories...at the end of their lifecycle the toxic contents of the batteries have to be disposed of...

The fact that we have a civilization based on oil consumption doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking for alternatives.  Indeed, the fact that oil is required for plastics and lots of other things is IMO one good reason why we should be looking for alternative energy sources now.  Every journey starts with a single step...

[Baz]

The fact that we have a civilization based on oil consumption doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking for alternatives.  Indeed, the fact that oil is required for plastics and lots of other things is IMO one good reason why we should be looking for alternative energy sources now.  Every journey starts with a single step...

Agree with you fully, but face the fact that right now their is no workable alternative to oil.

If there is anyone that realistically believes that we will be zooming around the planet on some magical liquid in the next 20 years, they need to give their head a shake. Short of some miracle, their just is not anything that replaces the density of energy stored in a barrel of oil.

I hope I am wrong.....

[Kootenanny]

If there is anyone that realistically believes that we will be zooming around the planet on some magical liquid in the next 20 years, they need to give their head a shake. Short of some miracle, their just is not anything that replaces the density of energy stored in a barrel of oil.

I agree--it may come, but not likely for quite a while yet.  However, it'll never come if we don't start the research NOW.  And not just H2, but other alternative energy sources as well.  So, I'm glad to hear about new souirces of energy being developed...so we can find out if they're gonna work or not.

Saw an interesting documentary recently, called "Windfall," about some of the problems surrounding wind energy development.  I've never been a big fan of wind energy, and this show documented problems with that industry that I'd never even thought about.

[Baz]

I find windfarms about as unsightly as an oilsands mine.  

I get my hands on a whole lot of pretty tight lipped production information and can tell you that their will soon be quite a shortage in crude oil supply around the world. A couple of the largest oilfields in the world are drying up and nothing has been discovered in the last 20 years that will replace the volume that they produce. With the rise in demand in the developing countries, it is going to get quite interesting.

The largest untapped energy source right now is Methane Hydrates but taping this stuff at the bottom of oceans is not all that practical or cheap to do. Still not really a replacement for oil.

I am pretty certain that our energy future is going to be a combination of things, but oil will still be #1.  

[Kootenanny]

I get my hands on a whole lot of pretty tight lipped production information and can tell you that their will soon be quite a shortage in crude oil supply around the world. A couple of the largest oilfields in the world are drying up and nothing has been discovered in the last 20 years that will replace the volume that they produce. With the rise in demand in the developing countries, it is going to get quite interesting.

Hell, you don't need to be an industry insider to know this.  I read Jeff Rubin's "Why Your World Is About To Get A Whole Lot Smaller" a few years ago...this is pretty much exactly what he is saying in his book.

[jp]

Great link there Koot (to Jeff Rubin's page)... Every time I pull in to the gas station, there is this little voice saying "How much longer??"
Every single nail, cabbage, t-shirt, bottle of beer, and bar stool got on this island with an oil powered motor assist. Every lobster headed the other way gets dragged up from the bottom with an oil-powered winch on an oil powered boat.
We have a whole pile of new windmills spinning away near the shore. Can't see how they're gonna replace the oil tanker though...

[Baz]

Hell, you don't need to be an industry insider to know this.  I read Jeff Rubin's "Why Your World Is About To Get A Whole Lot Smaller" a few years ago...this is pretty much exactly what he is saying in his book.

I have a few Oilfield Engineer friends who discussed the contents of this article a few years ago. The official estimates of world reserves as far as the Saudi's go are just a little jaded.

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/ghawar-oil-saudi/253

[Orson]

I get my hands on a whole lot of pretty tight lipped production information and can tell you that their will soon be quite a shortage in crude oil supply around the world.

 

[fragment]

Technology needs to be the hero of the century.  Technology to assist us with extracting the majority of petroleum that remains "trapped" underground.  Technology to drive efficiency gains with IC engines.  Technology to make electric vehicles viable.

There is plenty of oil around (IMHO), we just need a few Einstien level minds working on how to recover it.  So instead of Hawking gazing at the stars and attempting a Grand Unified Theory, maybe he could think about prehistoric formation exploitation.

I for one fear something like practical fusion.  All of a sudden my career, house, and portfolio would be worthless.

[Kootenanny]

There is plenty of oil around (IMHO), we just need a few Einstien level minds working on how to recover it.  So instead of Hawking gazing at the stars and attempting a Grand Unified Theory, maybe he could think about prehistoric formation exploitation.

I for one fear something like practical fusion.  All of a sudden my career, house, and portfolio would be worthless.

This is one of the most short-sighted, selfish views I've heard yet.

[black hills]

Deamnd will continue to increase as the rest of the world comes up to the level of North America. New technolgies won't take off until the price for oil is so high that they are worth the investment. Wind is not the Answer and the best chance we have at cheap/clean power is now all but finishished to teh the fukishima disaster. People are going to have to start living differently before anything changes...

[birdrunner]

Well,
I just heard that Chiquita Bananas are boycotting oilsand oil.
Yes, a company that may still be practicing Victorian era labour practices in the 3rd World, and is using pesticides banned in North America is call our oil dirty.

Since we supply 20% of U.S's oil, do you think they're paying a premium to avoid our stuff or are they letting everyone else use the "dirty" oil ? ....

I guess oil from countries where women have little to no rights, where there's no freedom of religion, where class separation exists is better than our stuff.


What an huge croak of manure....

[Baz]

You know the term "Banana Republic"?

Well just a little history lesson on our friends at Chiquita.


Full article here.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/12/19/yes-we-have-no-bananas

Chiquita banana thought it could fire a cheap shot at Canada’s energy industry and get away with it. That didn’t happen.
 
Last week, Chiquita announced it was asking all of its truckers to boycott Canadian ethical oil. Since no one has invented Star Trek’s dilithium crystals yet, that likely means Chiquita will now run on conflict oil from places like Saudi Arabia and Venezuela instead.
 
Chiquita probably thought this would be a cost-free PR stunt. The company certainly needed a public relations boost. In 2007, Chiquita was fined $25 million for giving protection money to South American terrorist paramilitaries, including the notorious FARC.
 
If it sounds shocking to you that a fruit company would be financing terrorist groups, then you don’t know the history of Chiquita — or the United Fruit Company, as it was known for most of the last century.
 
It was such a corrupt company that the countries in which it operated literally became “banana republics” - they were undermined democratically and became mere arms of the company itself. The rule of law, treatment of workers, civil rights all were subverted to the will of the United Fruit Company. We don’t call them pineapple republics; we don’t call them tomato republics. We call them banana republics, because of Chiquita banana.

And hey, if your interested, I can provide you with a large list of "ethical companies" than employ slave child labour that somehow thing that squeezing oil out of sand is bad, and have also placed my industry on their boycott list.  

[birdrunner]

That's be cool Baz,


I'm more interested in that my new job is a supplier to Sycrude.

[PatM]

Well,
I just heard that Chiquita Bananas are boycotting oilsand oil.
Yes, a company that may still be practicing Victorian era labour practices in the 3rd World, and is using pesticides banned in North America is call our oil dirty.

Since we supply 20% of U.S's oil, do you think they're paying a premium to avoid our stuff or are they letting everyone else use the "dirty" oil ? ....

I guess oil from countries where women have little to no rights, where there's no freedom of religion, where class separation exists is better than our stuff.


What an huge croak of manure....

How would their truckers know if the fuel they use comes from the oil sands? 

[Kootenanny]

They check the little "Made in _____" signs attached to each molecule...

[PatM]

They check the little "Made in _____" signs attached to each molecule...

 

[Baz]

It appears the Hollyweird crowd has now come out swinging  

The hypocrites are back. Pampered Hollywood millionaires, rich from a lifetime of playing pretend, trying to do something real and relevant by jumping on the anti-oil bandwagon.
 
It's trendy, it's good publicity, and for the Hollywood elite who take part, Alberta's oil is an easy target, because few will ever call you out for the total con job you're selling.
 
Whether it's Leo DiCaprio gallivanting on a private jet or Robert Redford making a fat paycheque as a spokesman for fuel-burning United Airlines, such
 
celebrities are two-faced charlatans.
 
They wallow in the very thing they oppose, preaching even as they sin -- and unfortunately for Alberta, they're also very effective, because in the modern world, fame is
 
almost holy. Hence, even as Redford
 
welcomes 50,000 fuel-wasting guests to his annual Sundance film festival, and DiCaprio burns thousands of unnecessary litres using his private jet, they continue to complain about oil.
 
And people are listening -- the recent delay of the Keystone XL oil pipeline being a prime example of celebrities using star power to generate negative headlines and influence politicians.

I wonder how long any of these idiots would last in a Ft. Mac bar?  

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2012/01/05/hollywood-actors-mount-new-attack-on-alberta-oil

[Baz]

How would their truckers know if the fuel they use comes from the oil sands? 

They have signed on to some sort of organization called Forest Ethics, which make the suppliers sign guarantee's that their base stocks does not origionate from the oilsands.

More here... http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-43041202/whole-foods-vs-canadian-oil-sands-proposed-boycott-fails-in-just-about-every-way/


I of course started boycotting all of the companies in question.  

[Baz]

That's be cool Baz,


I'm more interested in that my new job is a supplier to Sycrude.

Also a client of mine Mr. Bird.

[bubba zanetti]

That's be cool Baz,


I'm more interested in that my new job is a supplier to Sycrude.




Also a client of mine Mr. Bird.

You guys think you have a view on this and that it is open to debate... unbiased etc.? I don't ... so I don't comment. Take it to PO ... really Baz .. you have a jazz for this stuff and I refrain from posting in the Canada section because I like you guys . ... but honestly ... the Oil Sands  ??  I call conflict of interest ... but do post away ..  Lets have at it ... so to speak.

[birdrunner]

My comment is about the hypocracy of these American Companies, and other so called enviromentalists.

I wonder how many would gladly pay European prices for nice clean gas.  (if there is such a thing).  Perhaps they can skim the oil off the Gulf of Mexico, that's been left behind by the off shore rigs of BP.

fwiw,
I believe the area of the Oilsands that is strip mined is less than the area of strip mined for coal in Wyoming.
Oilsand developement no longer consumes the huge amount of water it used to, and the life of tailing ponds is now `1/10 of the earlier versions.  The areas that have been reclaimed look like typical northern "Bush", just like before.

[alphabet man]

My comment is about the hypocracy of these American Companies, and other so called enviromentalists.

I wonder how many would gladly pay European prices for nice clean gas.  (if there is such a thing).  Perhaps they can skim the oil off the Gulf of Mexico, that's been left behind by the off shore rigs of BP.

fwiw,
I believe the area of the Oilsands that is strip mined is less than the area of strip mined for coal in Wyoming.
Oilsand developement no longer consumes the huge amount of water it used to, and the life of tailing ponds is now `1/10 of the earlier versions.  The areas that have been reclaimed look like typical northern "Bush", just like before.

 You can be sure that ALL the mining in Canada disturbs much less land than the area covered by parking lots those same people deliver their bananas to, and you can be sure they wont be reclaimed

[Baz]

You guys think you have a view on this and that it is open to debate... unbiased etc.? I don't ... so I don't comment. Take it to PO ... really Baz .. you have a jazz for this stuff and I refrain from posting in the Canada section because I like you guys . ... but honestly ... the Oil Sands  ??  I call conflict of interest ... but do post away ..  Lets have at it ... so to speak.

Have you any idea Bubba, how many BC towns which are full of unemployed Ex forest workers now commute to Ft. Mac to work? In fact, a very large group of senior buyers who were let go from Catalyst paper now have formed their own company and are commuting two weeks in/out to a project in Ft. Mac. (they are all at the age of those that never get hired again, and are usually forced into retirement). There are probably more Newfoundlanders working in Fort Mac & area than in Newfoundland.

I always laugh till my sides hurt when someone brings up the suggestion of those dirty oil self centered Albertan's. I pretty much live in the Fort Mac. area most of the month, and you will find very few Albertan's who actually work there. Most are from places where they would probably be unemployed or on welfare if it was not for the Oilsands.  

Yes, I will agree and oilsands mine looks ugly, well just as ugly as any other sort of mine in the world. But I would ask you what the alternative might be? Because all the big holes are drying up. So one would guess you would be willing to go without oil in ten years from now? Would you be willing to park your bikes?

In actuality, the US Coal industry emits 90% more CO2 than the oilsands business, and China emits about 1000% more than that.

Now have you ever heard of an enviromental disaster in Ft. Mac that even comes close to the most recent in the Gulf of Mexico? The reality is that any large pools of oil left, will be found in the deep oceans, and in the Arctic oceans. I will would be willing to bet that they are going to produce far more damage to mother earth than all of the oilsands activity put together.  

So the alternative right now is Oilsands or face an even larger crude shortage that you are going to see shortly.  (In the next 10 years)

[Kootenanny]

You guys think you have a view on this and that it is open to debate... unbiased etc.? I don't ... so I don't comment. Take it to PO ... really Baz .. you have a jazz for this stuff and I refrain from posting in the Canada section because I like you guys . ... but honestly ... the Oil Sands  ??  I call conflict of interest ... but do post away ..  Lets have at it ... so to speak.

Personally, I think this topic is perfectly valid here in the Canada section, as the oil sands are a Canadian phenomenon.

The issue with the oil sands is that extraction there is energy intensive, compared to other sources (such as the Middle East, where you just stick in a pipe and out flows the oil).  This is self-limiting, though--as demand outstrips supply, prices rise to the point where the extraction costs are more than offset by the profit margin, and oil sand production occurs, but if prices were to fall too much, oil sand production would cease.  However, there would seem little chance of that, as new oil supplies are not coming online very quickly.

As Baz mentions, an environmental catastrophe such as happened in the Gulf of Mexico a few years back, or the Exxon Valdez spill two decades back, hasn't occurred in Fort Mac, and likely won't--the oil here isn't under pressure and won't leak out on it's own if a drillpipe breaks (and even if it did, there isn't any medium, such as seawater, to spread it quickly).  And as Dave mentions, while open pit mining looks bad, the actual footprint isn't all that big, percentagewise...and again, the worst environmental problems involve water spreading the muck about (such as a tailings pond flooding into a river).

We all use the products of these industries, and we complain when prices go up.  We can't have our cake and eat it, too.  Mining is gonna happen, whether for coal, copper, or oil.

All in all, I have more concerns about oil transportation than oil production.  Pipelines are bad enough, but shipping...I mean, look at the recent sinking of the Italian cruise ship, if a captain in charge of thousands of human lives can be so flippant about safety...  And at least with a pipeline, in the event of an accident, the flow can be shut off.

[Baz]

Kootenanny:

Yea, I don't think an oilsands discussion is in anyway political. No more than lets say a logging discussion.

Actually tailing ponds will become extinct in the next couple of years. They have a new process which turns the suspended solids (the real reason they had tailing ponds) in the water to a sand like material in 10 days.

I agree with you that an oilsands mine is no more nasty than any other strip mine.  

The thing that most people don't realize (and what some environmental groups fail to tell you) is that most of the existing large oil reserves that are know or  yet undiscovered, are even more energy intense than the oilsands. They have recently drilled for oil off the coast of Greenland, which has a 1 month drilling season. (they didn't find anything) However if they did locate a viable resource there, it would have been very energy intensive just to get it to a refinery.


Below is a map of the Alberta Oilsands areas to put things into perspective. The Cold Lake and Peace River regions, are all SAGD areas (not mining operations) and the area of Fort Mac that will be mined is actually quite a small part of the entire area. When they mine and process an oilsands site, they basically dig up bitumen, squeeze the oil out of it, and then place the sand back in the pit. The reclaimed result is not much different than when they started. Not at all like a copper strip mine.

 




Here is an Oilsands mine site:




Now here is a reclaimed oilsands mine site.





Now here is a typical SAGD operation. The majority of what will be built in Ft. Mac. Note the very small footprint .






 

[Kootenanny]

Here are two photos of the Highland Valley Copper mine that I took from the highway viewpoint during a motorcycle trip (I've been onsite many times for business, but you get a much better picture of it from the highway viewpoint).  AFAIK, HVC is one of the largest copper mines in the Western hemisphere, and it's located right here in the BC southern interior.  

[black hills]

today we moved 2 of 4 of these tanks through our system. They are going from Texac to the oil sands? wouldn't it be easier to build them there? the truck and load is 24' tall and 170' long...

[Baz]

Black Hills:

We actually do not have enough manpower to build everything here. In fact Imperial Oil (Exxon) is having to fabricate many componants of their new plant in Korea. Other sites are having things made in Europe, and as you point out, there is a pile of work coming out of the USA.

I sell componants for Upgraders, and our company is now booking work 6 months into the future. Sort of the story with every fabricator. We also have a real shortage of trades people here. I can tell you that two years ago, there was more construction projects going on in Fort MacMurray than every other place in Canada combined. I don't think that status has changed.



If there are any unemployed trade people here at STN, I would recomend having a look at becoming a Temp. foreign worker.  

http://www.albertacanada.com/immigration/audience/employers-tfw-temporary-foreign-worker-program.aspx

[black hills]

Black Hills:

We actually do not have enough manpower to build everything here. In fact Imperial Oil (Exxon) is having to fabricate many componants of their new plant in Korea. Other sites are having things made in Europe, and as you point out, there is a pile of work coming out of the USA.

I sell componants for Upgraders, and our company is now booking work 6 months into the future. Sort of the story with every fabricator. We also have a real shortage of trades people here. I can tell you that two years ago, there was more construction projects going on in Fort MacMurray than every other place in Canada combined. I don't think that status has changed.



If there are any unemployed trade people here at STN, I would recomend having a look at becoming a Temp. foreign worker.  

http://www.albertacanada.com/immigration/audience/employers-tfw-temporary-foreign-worker-program.aspx

   there is always money to be made somewhere. the mover called and two more tanks we be coming through next week...

[Baz]

OK, now phone up yer President, and tell him you love the Oilsands.  

[black hills]

OK, now phone up yer President, and tell him you love the Oilsands.  

we have been working wioth Trans Canada on thier pipeline. We are supposed to provide service to a 1.5MW man camp for construction, obviously now on hold. seems the president (not mine ) would rather keep the enviros happy than give Americans jobs?

[ABADV]

Go Oilsands! Let the economic engine of Canada continue to run strong!

[Baz]

[black hills]

ooops... this one isn't going to make it...