Don't like ABS? Tough sh&*t! - it'll mandatory in 2016

[Cablebandit]

  My consistency sucks.

Quoted for the sake of computer controlled ABS.

[X1Glider]

Quoted for the sake of computer controlled ABS.

Or from the inability to consistently hold the same lines, consistently judge corner entrance speed, running wide on exit, screwing up the line through a chicane, many other things including a life of really poor depth perception (been failing that part of the eye exam since I was 5).  If braking was my only weak point, then what you say would likely help.  I seriously doubt it would narrow 3 seconds of inconsistency down to 1/2 second.  ABS wouldn't matter anyway as the CMRA doesn't allow ABS use.  External track days, sure.  However, I've never been serious about the track.  It was a hobby/social thing that cured an itch.  I just accept I'm always the average club level racer and that's as good as it gets for me.

[X1Glider]

At least you have basis for your opinions, unlike many of the cromagnons who poo-poo ABS because it's new and they completely overestimate their skills.  

I have fun discussing things on a technical level.  What might have gotten buried in all this banter is that I actually like ABS.  Had it on 2 bikes (with just-ok ABS) and would have liked it to be on the bike I bought a couple months ago.

I still have never owned a 4 wheel vehicle with ABS.  Would be nice to have.  But I would rather save money on a 4 wheeled vehicle that gets very little use so I can have a bunch of bikes.

[sprint_st]

Well after 11 pages, has anything been changed?  
Are there any people who used to believe they could brake better WITHOUT ABS change their minds and will park their bike until they get one with ABS?
Are there any people who are now terrified to ride a non-ABS bike based upon this discussion?

IMO a few things were established:
"MOST" people will choose an ABS equipped "street bike" over one without ABS.  No poll, just based on a gazillion of these ABS - no-ABS topics.
Unlike when ABS first appeared, it is the "I can brake better than ABS folks" that are having to defend their position.
ABS will NOT be mandatory in the USA in 2016, if ever.
People still think if it works on the track, it will work on the street.

FYI:  If you do a quick search of STN,   this horse has been killed at least 20 times. I stopped counting at 20 topics directly addressing ABS versus no ABS with about 2300 posts.  

[AzItLies]

Not true it all.  ABS comes on at the moment a programmed threshhold value of reduced wheel rotation is reached.  If the computer takes the sensor ring readings and believes that you have stopped impossibly fast, it releases brake pressure and you can not get that brake pressure back until the computer allows it.  This is where ABS can increase stopping distance.  

The effect is more obvious with tires that have the most traction because high performance tires such a Qualifier or Diablo Corsa can hit that programmed threshhold much more easily than a less sticky touring tire like a Pilot Road.

There is no sensor that senses if a tire is sliding.  There is no way it could tell if the tire is sliding or if you are sitting still.  All it knows is that the wheel isn't turning. If that were the case, you would have no brakes when stopped on a hill becuase the ABS released brake pressure.

Sorry, this is how ABS works.

Maybe a good question is... has the above information changed your perception of ABS?

Because I think it explains it perfectly re my experiences. It explains how some of us find ABS to be kicking in sooner then we think it should. And it also explains that if you are not aware of how this works, you could believe (and swear up and down) that it's impossible ABS could ever be a hindrance in any way...

[X1Glider]

Maybe a good question is... has the above information changed your perception of ABS?

Because I think it explains it perfectly re my experiences. It explains how some of us find ABS to be kicking in sooner then we think it should. And it also explains that if you are not aware of how this works, you could believe (and swear up and down) that it's impossible ABS could ever be a hindrance in any way...

If the Bosch 9 system is more prevalent now, then yes, my perception has changed.  Even though I have ridden the C14 and Voyager with it, I hated the brake feel.  But I was coming off a very touchy servo assisted system.  The Diavel was scary fast at slowing down.  But I have not tried it on a true sport bike like the S1000RR, which a few have said is phenomenal.

The thing is, this system needs to be available on more bikes in the USA.  I really wanted ABS on the Ninja 1000. If it is the Bosch 9 then maybe it's possible to retrofit the bike with it.  My only concern is that programmed threshold in regards to me liking to use really sticky rubber.  It was a problem on my BMW.  Put on a harder sport touring tire like a Roadsmart and the ABS worked better.  I'm not sure the Ninja 1000 would have modes to select to alleviate this issue.

[spd2918]

Maybe a good question is... has the above information changed your perception of ABS?

Because I think it explains it perfectly re my experiences. It explains how some of us find ABS to be kicking in sooner then we think it should. And it also explains that if you are not aware of how this works, you could believe (and swear up and down) that it's impossible ABS could ever be a hindrance in any way...

The system senses the difference in wheel speed while braking.  What the computer does with that information determines if it is a great aid or something that does not inspire confidence.  Older systems were nowhere near as good as current ones.

Case in point:  2006 Harley Davidson Police bikes could be ordered with ABS.  That system was adapted by Nissin and was a great aid in most situations but was less than perfect.  I recall down shifting while braking.  On our HD bikes the clutch would drag even when fully pulled in (to include a jump when starting).  This drag on the rear wheel was interpreted as the rear wheel sliding due to braking.  The system would release the front momentarily and spook the rider.  This was not a huge deal due to the very low speeds it would happen at and because WE HAD TRAINING IN ABS.

Flash forward to our 2010 Police bikes.  They have a system designed by HD for the bike.  To date I have not found any issues with the ABS system and find it as smooth and predictable as my Honda ST1300SA.

So yes, older systems were less than perfect, and the new ones are very, very good.  I was trained by braking on asphalt that transitioned to shoulder gravel and then to wet grass.  I don't care what you think about your skills, you cannot manage that while braking.

[black hills]

The system senses the difference in wheel speed while braking.  What the computer does with that information determines if it is a great aid or something that does not inspire confidence.  Older systems were nowhere near as good as current ones.

.

So, on my CBR the rear wheel is barely on the ground under heavy braking. I usually end up locking it but don't realize it until the front brake pressure is released and allows the rear to come in better contact with the ground. So, ABS on that bike would be reducing front wheel braking power?

[AzItLies]

So, on my CBR the rear wheel is barely on the ground under heavy braking. I usually end up locking it but don't realize it until the front brake pressure is released and allows the rear to come in better contact with the ground. So, ABS on that bike would be reducing front wheel braking power?

my bet would be that if you had ABS on your cbr it would probably be kicking in before the rear wheel even got off the ground. Thus making it so that the rear would never get off the ground, coincidentally, not necessarily intentionally, because of the reduction in front wheel braking power.

[black hills]

my bet would be that if you had ABS on your cbr it would probably be kicking in before the rear wheel even got off the ground. Thus making it so that the rear would never get off the ground, coincidentally, not necessarily intentionally, because of the reduction in front wheel braking power.

probably. its not all the way off the ground (I don't think), just so light that it doesn't really matter if the wheel is locked or not.  

[X1Glider]

Chance are that upon immediately braking hard, the fast weight transfer to the front would pick the rear off the ground before ABS kicked in.  It takes an ABS system that senses chassis attitude to release brake pressure to prevent the rear from coming up.

[boogeyman]

I could not quickly find a source to "prove" I'm right, but it wouldn't settle anything anyway even if I could because you'd just continue to argue in the face of any evidence to the contrary.

Therefore, in hopes of keeping others from falling victim to your flimsy arguments, I'll simply say that even when tires are merely running up a highway not braking and not turning.... tires slip relative to the roadway to some extent.

I suppose I could have more clearly stated: Sorry, but maximum braking happens just as the tire begins to increase slipage... by which time ABS has already kicked in.

I kinda remember something from dynamics class about this, slight slippage=more friction.  I'm not willing to revisit that book or my notes anytime soon though.

[miles]

Chance are that upon immediately braking hard, the fast weight transfer to the front would pick the rear off the ground before ABS kicked in.  It takes an ABS system that senses chassis attitude to release brake pressure to prevent the rear from coming up.

The ABS on my S1000RR does that. In "sport" mode it won't let the back whelk come up off the ground, in "race" mode the rear wheel will come up a bit, but won't let you go over the bars. In "slick" mode you can auger youself into the ground if you wish.

[black hills]

 In "slick" mode you can auger youself into the ground if you wish.

Sweet!!!  It is strange how your brain works in panic mode. Had a deer cross my path in the middle of the afternoon one time. I was thinking about getting to my daughters soccer game so was a bit behind the curve on the whole incident. Somehow I went form 6th gear @ 70mph to 5mph in first gear (missed the deer). and my only concious thoughts in between were:
"shit"
"shit..whats that howling noise"
"shit I better let off the front brake a tad"
apparently some other part of my brain took care of the rest? It turned out fine, but ABS would have been fine with me at that point

[mugwump58]

I agree. Last year I saved my own life avoiding a pickup truck that tried to kill me. My body performed well above a level that thought would have brought to the situtation. Don't know how that works..... but I'll take it.

[cbsnbiker]

So, on my CBR the rear wheel is barely on the ground under heavy braking. I usually end up locking it but don't realize it until the front brake pressure is released and allows the rear to come in better contact with the ground. So, ABS on that bike would be reducing front wheel braking power?

ABS would also keep the rear wheel from locking.

In another currently-active thread, a couple on an HD locked the rear wheel and crashed. Without going into the particulars of the issues in that thread, I'll observe that the rider probably locked the rear, then unlocked it at an inopportune moment, causing the bike to highside. ABS can keep this from happening.