HD - The Power of the Test Ride

[lolife]

Someone sent me these pics.  Who knows if its for real but its pretty sad if it is.  

[Justin]

Out  


Oops, wrong thread!

[Hardware]

Disgusting and affirming all in one.  Not that I ever would...but eliminates any remote possibility of feeling bad about the years of Hardley bashing.

[garry]

They're salesmen trying to make a sale. The HD lifestyle/image is a big draw. I don't get it, but obviously hundreds of thousands do every year. I don't care how other people spend their money. The part about pointing out features of the bike as they relate to different parts of the route sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[staedtler]

i wanna bagger!!...i mean,... i wanna bag her  

[UFO]

 

[desertxxrider]

 I don't see stopping at the titty bar in the sales guide.

[R Doug]

i wanna bagger!!...i mean,... i wanna bag her  

Out x 2 for me.  

[SLK50]

Anyone, who is surprised by any part of that,
has evidently never worked in sales.
"Playbooks" aren't unusual.

Sidebar: I once watched my mentor, during a sale,
actually destroy product, thus eliminating any
chance for the customer to "think about it"!
IOW, buy it NOW or never.

[Hardware]

...Sidebar: I once watched my mentor, during a sale,
actually destroy product, thus eliminating any
chance for the customer to "think about it"!
IOW, buy it NOW or never.

What were y'all selling...meth?

[Stripes]

I'd bet that it's real...

[falconati]

They're salesmen trying to make a sale. The HD lifestyle/image is a big draw. I don't get it, but obviously hundreds of thousands do every year. I don't care how other people spend their money. The part about pointing out features of the bike as they relate to different parts of the route sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[Clovis]

Why wouldn't anyone want to be part of the HD "life style" ??  

[Hardware]

Why wouldn't anyone want to be part of the HD "life style" ??  

I don't know...'cause one might be heterosexual?

BTW: that last picture...is that Paul Sr., when he was younger?  Would 'splain lots...

[atadaskew]

So....
It's a play book to help sales people get sales.

You do know they are in the business of selling, right?


It seems that right about now Honda, Kawi, Suzi, Yam could do with a sales play book.
Wonder what it would say?

"Show customers how easy it is to peel off badges so no-one knows you're not riding a Harley.."

[veefer800canuck]

Good one 'skew!  

[Clovis]

There's nothing wrong with selling. They're just selling bullshit (aka the "HD Lifestyle"). I don't see anything about the bike's abilities or mechanical achievements, just a bunch of "throw him in a bunch of Harley apparel and use peer pressure to sell".

Everything about the HD brand is complete bullshit. Selling the image is all they have.

Did you know that HD makes more money selling merchanise then they do actually selling bikes? It should be called Harley-Davidson Apparel Company.

So....
It's a play book to help sales people get sales.

You do know they are in the business of selling, right?


It seems that right about now Honda, Kawi, Suzi, Yam could do with a sales play book.
Wonder what it would say?

"Show customers how easy it is to peel off badges so no-one knows you're not riding a Harley.."

[ST for me!]

Fucking pirates  

[mugwump58]

It's nothing personal, it's just business. These techniques make perfect sense for a certain demographic.

I'm not aware of a HD shop that would even go to all that trouble.

[dan88z]

I don't see anything about the bike's abilities or mechanical achievements

Because there are none.

[Hardware]

...Did you know that HD makes more money selling merchanise then they do actually selling bikes? It should be called Harley-Davidson Apparel Company.

I've joked for years (as have many others I'm sure) that it's a T-shirt company that also sells motorcycles.

[falcofred]

They don't make the best motorcycles, but they are the MASTERS of marketing, no one does it better. No company sells their image, lifestyle, trademark better than Harley. They are marketing geniuses, no doubt about that.
NASCAR comes close, so does Apple, Coke also, but HD sets the benchmark for marketing and brand loyalty.
The Bar and Shield I'm sure is the most tattooed trademark in the world.

I am on my second Ducati, and I will say that Ducati is somewhat like HD in selling a lifestyle with clothing and apparel. No where close to HD, but they are trying. I like the Ducati experience, but have not drunk the Kool Aid and have not purchased one piece of their apparel. I have one Ducati shirt, and it was a gift.

[ninjaridaz]

So....
It's a play book to help sales people get sales.

You do know they are in the business of selling, right?


It seems that right about now Honda, Kawi, Suzi, Yam could do with a sales play book.
Wonder what it would say?

"Show customers how easy it is to peel off badges so no-one knows you're not riding a Harley.."

I wouldn't have any problem with it if they were selling lifestyle accessories, lol.  I thought they sold motorcycles though?

[JonS]

I am on my second Ducati, and I will say that Ducati is somewhat like HD in selling a lifestyle with clothing and apparel. No where close to HD, but they are trying. I like the Ducati experience, but have not drunk the Kool Aid and have not purchased one piece of their apparel. I have one Ducati shirt, and it was a gift.

I bought a tee shirt once, everything else was way over priced.

[PatM]

I wouldn't have any problem with it if they were selling lifestyle accessories, lol.  I thought they sold motorcycles though?

They're not selling bikes, they're selling dreams. How is that any different from selling a Ducati, a Corvette or a dishwasher?
Aren't you dreaming you're Rossi when you will ride that bike? Whatever works. If you go for the thechno mumbo jumbo, good for them.
That's what sales is all about. Get the customer to sign the contract. They're here to make a living. Nothing wrong with that.  

[black hills]

HD motor company is a marketing marvel, and they aren't afraid to admint it. Had a speaker at a conference that was the former VP of marketing at HD, he had a picture of a shadow and a HD and asked what the difference was? the only diofference was the HD had to buckles on the saddle bags and the Honda out performed it at everything. His question to the audience "how do I not only convince someone to by the HD, but to spned twice the money on it" he proceeded over the next two hours to explain exactly hos its done, including what was in the original pictures
personally every HD I've ridden was great at the beginning and continually get worse the longer I rode it? I think they are the perfect "test ride" machine

[sfalexi]

They're salesmen trying to make a sale. The HD lifestyle/image is a big draw. I don't get it, but obviously hundreds of thousands do every year. I don't care how other people spend their money. The part about pointing out features of the bike as they relate to different parts of the route sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Seems about right to me.  Should a salesman not be allowed to say, "Man, that looks good on you."  It's about making the sale and creating emotional attachment to the product.  EVERY salesman uses these tactics.  It's just Harley is big enough to write a guide to help their sales people make the sale.  Even if you think this stuff is wrong, understand that ANY product being sold is going to use ANY means available to make the customer think, "Yeah.  This is what I want."  Anything from real estate clerks, to infomercials, to motorcycle salesman!

Alexi

[Orson]

How quickly y'all forget that Miguel Duhamel led 2 laps of a superbike national on a Harley  

[Prubert]

How quickly y'all forget that Miguel Duhamel led 2 laps of a superbike national on a Harley  

...and then he came in for a pit stop.  

[94gixxerod]

This sales manual is an excellent example of why Harley flourishes and is more profitable per unit than other motorcycle manufacturers. I would have been greatly impressed if it was the manual for Kawasaki, Yamaha, etc.

[NoGear]

There's nothing wrong with selling. They're just selling bullshit (aka the "HD Lifestyle"). I don't see anything about the bike's abilities or mechanical achievements, just a bunch of "throw him in a bunch of Harley apparel and use peer pressure to sell".

Everything about the HD brand is complete bullshit. Selling the image is all they have.

Did you know that HD makes more money selling merchanise then they do actually selling bikes? It should be called Harley-Davidson Apparel Company.

It seems to me that other dealers could learn a thing or two about how Harley does it. Have you ever been in a HD dearlership?  They have tons of shirts and gear on hand, even helmets. Now go into your local Kaw/Hon/Suz/Yam dealer. What do they have for gear or casual wear?  Very little. The majority of HD dealerships even put a CycleGear store to shame.  When will dealers learn? Bikes are purchased on average of every 3-5  years, (some of us go a lot longer) but we tend to buy gear more often.

Also when were you in a dealership the last time that the sales people knew what they were talking about?  When we were looking at bikes for my wife we went to 4 different shops in the Greater Cincinnati area. In not one did a "salesman" try to sell me. Not one tried to "close" me.  None of them asked any questions. They didn't ask about a budget. They didn't ask what kind of riding she intended to do. They only questions asked where "did you have a bike in mind?" and one asked if she had any experience.  Now I went into HD of Cincinnati with a friend a salesman came right up and asked a lot of questions. When I told him that I already have a bike the conversation went like this: "what kind?". "FJR". "Oh, nice bike! Do you like touring?" "Of course". "Have you thought about getting a bike that's more comfortable? Let me show you an Ultra Classic".  Even though I told him I wasn't interested he still got me to look at a bike.  He knew everything about the bike and since I already had a helmet with me offered me a test ride. When I said the I really wasn't wanting something that big he chuckled and say "yeah, I thought so, you'd want something sportier. Take a look at this Sportster."   He kept going, and kept asking test closing questions.   He at least had had some training in sales. I can't say the same for the other dealerships in my area.

Now I agree with others. I don't get into the whole pirate lifestyle, but that's because I grew up and matured. The first bike I bought when I was a young private was a Low rider.  I rode with full patch members of an MC in AZ and the only reason I didn't become a member was because I got transferred to Germany. While in Germany I grew to dislike my HD and ended up selling/trading my HD to an Italian for a 1996 Ducati 916.  I've never looked back.

[KodiakRS]

So where is the part about "Steer the customer away from the Buell's."  Or is this a new version of the manual?

[sfalexi]

BMW comes pretty close to creating an "image".  THey just haven't quite pushed it right.  But that "badge" certainly has a status attached to it.

[sfalexi]

So where is the part about "Steer the customer away from the Buell's."  Or is this a new version of the manual?

That was their biggest mistake.  people ALREADY associate H-D with a particular lifestyle, and then they try to market buells in HD shops only?!  Who ever went to a HD dealer looking for a sportbike or adventure bike?!?!  That was a real bonehead marketing move.

Alexi

[desertxxrider]

It was more fun in the old days watching people try to kickstart them.               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zFWGs4_vzM

[falconati]

It seems to me that other dealers could learn a thing or two about how Harley does it. Have you ever been in a HD dearlership?  They have tons of shirts and gear on hand, even helmets. Now go into your local Kaw/Hon/Suz/Yam dealer. What do they have for gear or casual wear?  Very little. The majority of HD dealerships even put a CycleGear store to shame.  When will dealers learn? Bikes are purchased on average of every 3-5  years, (some of us go a lot longer) but we tend to buy gear more often.

Also when were you in a dealership the last time that the sales people knew what they were talking about?  When we were looking at bikes for my wife we went to 4 different shops in the Greater Cincinnati area. In not one did a "salesman" try to sell me. Not one tried to "close" me.  None of them asked any questions. They didn't ask about a budget. They didn't ask what kind of riding she intended to do. They only questions asked where "did you have a bike in mind?" and one asked if she had any experience.  Now I went into HD of Cincinnati with a friend a salesman came right up and asked a lot of questions. When I told him that I already have a bike the conversation went like this: "what kind?". "FJR". "Oh, nice bike! Do you like touring?" "Of course". "Have you thought about getting a bike that's more comfortable? Let me show you an Ultra Classic".  Even though I told him I wasn't interested he still got me to look at a bike.  He knew everything about the bike and since I already had a helmet with me offered me a test ride. When I said the I really wasn't wanting something that big he chuckled and say "yeah, I thought so, you'd want something sportier. Take a look at this Sportster."   He kept going, and kept asking test closing questions.   He at least had had some training in sales. I can't say the same for the other dealerships in my area.

Now I agree with others. I don't get into the whole pirate lifestyle, but that's because I grew up and matured. The first bike I bought when I was a young private was a Low rider.  I rode with full patch members of an MC in AZ and the only reason I didn't become a member was because I got transferred to Germany. While in Germany I grew to dislike my HD and ended up selling/trading my HD to an Italian for a 1996 Ducati 916.  I've never looked back.

I had a similar experience at the Rochester (MN) H-D dealer 3-4 years ago.  I came in on my ST3, was kicking tires looking at their lineup, and a salesperson asked me if I had a bike.  I told him that I had a Ducati ST3 and his eyes lit up - he had owned an ST2 a few years prior.  We started talking/commiserating about the models (both of us had gripes about specific engineering elements), and then he started to steer me towards a few Sportsters (which is exactly what I had been considering).  I don't have a problem with Harley dealers, and am rather impressed with the service and soft-salespitches that I've gotten from them.  I've only had one negative experience (uninformed sales staff), but that was when I was looking at a Buell model.

[ninjaridaz]

This sales manual is an excellent example of why Harley flourishes and is more profitable per unit than other motorcycle manufacturers. I would have been greatly impressed if it was the manual for Kawasaki, Yamaha, etc.

Heard they are laying off a bunch of workers.

While there is no denying the marketing genius of hd- what does that say about "faithful" and their lifestyle?  Have we stumbled upon the confirmation of every stereotype portrayed in South Park's harley fags episode?

[stromgal]

I am on my second Ducati, and I will say that Ducati is somewhat like HD in selling a lifestyle with clothing and apparel. No where close to HD, but they are trying. I like the Ducati experience, but have not drunk the Kool Aid and have not purchased one piece of their apparel. I have one Ducati shirt, and it was a gift.

I concur on Ducati taking a marketing note from HD. 'Ducati Island' promotes the exclusivity of the club. I keep holding off on purchase of a Ducati-branded item, thinking 'not until I own the bike', but who knows if that will ever happen?  

[94gixxerod]

Heard they are laying off a bunch of workers.


While there is no denying the marketing genius of hd- what does that say about "faithful" and their lifestyle?  Have we stumbled upon the confirmation of every stereotype portrayed in South Park's harley fags episode?

Yep, they are subject to the same worldwide market forces as the other players. And, I agree with you when you state that there is no denying the marketing genius of HD. Manufacturers would love to have their own "faithful" to build a lifestyle around their products. Maybe some of them would love to be the subject of South Park episodes, as well. Hard to say...

[ninjaridaz]

Other manufacturers would like their own "faithful"- but don't.  "Harley fags" are predominantly hd-lifestyle inspired.  That's what makes so funny.  All the "black sheep" out there that drank the expensive kool aid.

[Kat-Rider]

I used to have a Suzuki coffee cup.  Does that count as a lifestyle accessory?

[Kootenanny]

They're not selling bikes, they're selling dreams.

"Sell the sizzle, not the steak."  First rule of selling.

So where is the part about "Steer the customer away from the Buell's."  Or is this a new version of the manual?

Keith Wandell personally sent the memo in December 09 to delete that section...

[DrD]

BMW comes pretty close to creating an "image".  THey just haven't quite pushed it right.  But that "badge" certainly has a status attached to it.

   I don't see the equivalence.  BMW has evolved their bikes as they saw their customers change and technology change.  HD wants to sell to the masses based on a design from the early 1900's and stay as close to that as possible, cause it is "the orignial."  BMW has a design, the R bikes, that goes way back.  But that keeps getting updated.  And they brought out the K bikes, and now the S1000RR.  

OTOH, a BMW test ride shouldn't stop where a lot of non-riders will walk by.  Too much of a chance one of those types will say, "Isn't that a car company?"

[Orson]

my biggest beef about BMW is their insistence that all owners need to wear them houndstooth jackets with the leather elbow patches and smoke a pipe.

other than that...nice bikes  

[Kootenanny]

 I don't see the equivalence.  BMW has evolved their bikes as they saw their customers change and technology change.  HD wants to sell sells lots of bikes to the masses based on a design from the early 1900's and stay as close to that as possible, cause it is "the orignial."  

There, ftfy.

Oh, BMW trades on their image, too--don't believe otherwise!

[NoGear]

There, ftfy.

Oh, BMW trades on their image, too--don't believe otherwise!

As a former owner of several BMW automobiles I'll confirm that one!  You get their "Lifestyle" magazine in the mail all the time and yes that is the name of it. Of course they also have the full clothing line of overpriced apparel.  The golf bags, golf balls, cups, key chains, hats, sunglasses, and gifts for your kids.   I love their cars but unfortunately being back on Uncle Sam's dime I could no longer afford them.

[DrD]

There, ftfy.

Oh, BMW trades on their image, too--don't believe otherwise!

OK, you are on top on this one!

Happy New Year to all the pirates!

[Snowbird]

I think this thread has missed the main point of the sales training material: Take the customer to where he/she can get his/her ego stroked. It's all about ego; not about riding... even if many of Harley riders do ride a lot.

Fact is, there are many more Harleys sold than the ones you see, and those bikes sit in garages, thought of only when the possession can be dropped into conversation and/or when the monthly payment is due.

Overall, this may be great for Harley's stock price, but is bad for motorcycling. There are huge issues (legislative, road rights, riding safety in the age of cell phones, etc.) facing the industry and the last thing we need is to ignore that one manufacturer dominates the market not by making the best road equipment, but by selling lifestyle.

Short term gain, long term pain.

[black hills]

I'll do some research today. Taking the KTM on the local biker bars "polar bear run". I'll take a little different route than the others

[Hardware]

Has BMW looked to carve their own marketing niche?  Absolutely!

Would any retailer envy the sales levels seen by Hardley?  Sure!

But while BMW does brand a lot of clothing (including non-riding apparel) - they also spend a lot of money in R&D.  They come up with new models and product lines.  They evolve.  

Hardley Ableson builds the same basic limited line of bikes over and over and over...and "innovation" comes only in the form of "styling exercises".  (That's an actual quote from a HD rep at a test ride day)

I have zero respect or interest in HD as a company because they're a big, corporate version of the OC Chopper retards.  If they spent half the resources in designing interesting bikes as they did in having lawyers try to trademark engine sounds, or come up with yet another visually repulsive "styling exercise"...I might reconsider.

The local Hardley Ableson dealer also carries Suzuki and Ural.  I was interested in a Ural and a buddy (newly licensed) is leaning towards a dual purpose (DR650, KLR 650, etc).  We went to this dealer...what a waste of time.  Trying to speak to anyone about the Suzuki D-P bikes (they had one DR 650 and two DR400Zs) was an exercise in futility.  When we finally did speak to some 20-something salesman idiot, he ended up steering us over to the HD clothing line!  

When Hardley Ableson did have a good handling product line in house (Buell) they fucking crucified it.  

/rant.

[Kootenanny]

When Hardley Ableson did have a good handling product line in house (Buell) they fucking crucified it.  

This I agree with.  Although, at least one dealership I was in had a racing enthusiast in charge of their Buell department (they even fielded a successful race team), while another hired a salesman with prior experience selling Big Four sportbikes, so he at least had a clue (this was after I bought my Buell there, though--at that time, I knew far, far, far more about the bike than the sales staff did, I felt I should have charged them consulting fees...).

[Galo]

Fact is, there are many more Harleys sold than the ones you see, and those bikes sit in garages, thought of only when the possession can be dropped into conversation and/or when the monthly payment is due.

Overall, this may be great for Harley's stock price, but is bad for motorcycling. There are huge issues (legislative, road rights, riding safety in the age of cell phones, etc.) facing the industry and the last thing we need is to ignore that one manufacturer dominates the market not by making the best road equipment, but by selling lifestyle.

Short term gain, long term pain.

Very well-thought out post, and....interested in why you feel that how they have achieved their success is bad for motorcycling. Even though I dislike the bikes and the lifestyle, they have placed a lot of bikes on the road, bikes that otherwise might not have been there....so...how could that be bad for motorcycling?
 

[Hardware]

Very well-thought out post, and....interested in why you feel that how they have achieved their success is bad for motorcycling. Even though I dislike the bikes and the lifestyle, they have placed a lot of bikes on the road, bikes that otherwise might not have been there....so...how could that be bad for motorcycling?
 

Oh...the whole mantra of layin' 'er down in an emergency; chrome beanie helmets; etc...

[ninjaridaz]

See harley fags- Southpark for further details.

[blackbeltrider]

All the talk about appealing to customer ego/emotion leaves me cold, and sales people who use that approach are simply told to stop it.
I prefer an approach based on more rational considerations, such as needs, and the fit between them and specifications, design, and price.
Perhaps, if I had lots more money with no gainful use to put it too, I'd buy a motorcycle with less consideration given to the practical side, but it still wouldn't be a Harley - I personally can't subscribe to the lifestyle aspect they are selling.
This is simply why I make the choices I make; it is neither a condemnation nor a condonement of others' choices.

[Galo]

Oh...the whole mantra of layin' 'er down in an emergency; chrome beanie helmets; etc...

Okay. How 'bout blinged-out Busas with 8" longer swing arms, or 600cc sportbikes with almost-open exhausts at 10k RPMs in first gear on tranquil city streets, or or or...are those denizens good for motorcycling?  

[Snowbird]

Very well-thought out post, and....interested in why you feel that how they have achieved their success is bad for motorcycling. Even though I dislike the bikes and the lifestyle, they have placed a lot of bikes on the road, bikes that otherwise might not have been there....so...how could that be bad for motorcycling?
 

There are huge issues (legislative, road rights, riding safety in the age of cell phones, etc.) facing the industry and the last thing we need is to ignore that one manufacturer dominates the market not by making the best road equipment, but by selling lifestyle.

I know tons of Harley guys and they know diddly-squat about the true issues of motorcycling because they're all wrapped up in their personal image.

[Kootenanny]

I prefer an approach based on more rational considerations, such as needs, and the fit between them and specifications, design, and price.

I have a cousin in TV advertising.  Saw a beer ad at his place once, and I commented on just how immature and stupid it was--he laughed, and told me the beer companies don't care at all what I think, I don't buy their beer anyway--I'm not a 19 year old male, their target demographic.

Harley's marketing department don't care what you (or I, or most anyone on this board) thinks, because we ain't their target demographic.  We already ride motorcycles, and we don't buy into the "Harley lifestyle"--and it'd be too much effort, for too little return, to try to convince us otherwise.  Instead, they go after all those young guys who think of themselves as tough, and convince them a Harley is the perfect accessory to advertise that fact.  These are guys with a wife and a young child or two, a good career, who fear getting "stuck in a rut" and being nothing but corporate clones for the next 20 years...hey, they can be a weekend warrior and prove they're actually bad-ass dudes under that clean-cut exterior...

[mjrfd99]

Okay. How 'bout blinged-out Busas with 8" longer swing arms, or 600cc sportbikes with almost-open exhausts at 10k RPMs in first gear on tranquil city streets, or or or...are those denizens good for motorcycling?  

Thats diiiiiffffeeerrreeennnntttt     LOL.  

[Galo]

Thats diiiiiffffeeerrreeennnntttt     LOL.  

neener neener neener.....
 

[Bounce]

I'm surprised anyone is surprised by the manual. It simply verifies what everyone's been saying for years.

[Swamp Rat]

Ok, I somehow got through this whole thread, and didn't see too many replies that showed much respect for the bikes. I am 55 yrs old, have been riding since I was 20. there has been Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, BMW, Ducati, and Moto Guzzi bikes in my possesion at one time or another.I bought my first Harley in 1985, have owned a few of them, sold my last one 3 years ago with 104,000 miles on her, and the one before that with over 80,000 miles on it. I am thinking of buying another one for just riding by myself because I can. I also worked for a local dealer for 6 months, and can verify that there was a sales training manual, but ALSO there was an online training class that was about technical advantages over other companies CRUISERS.....remember, they don't sell Sport-Touring bikes, wish they did.

I can tell you also that I do not subscribe to the lifestyle.....I am a motorcyclist, not a biker......and I wear a flip-face helmet, gloves, breathable jacket, jeans, and boots when riding. Even on my Harleys. I always recommended my customers to do the same.

When I was talking to a customer, I always asked if they currently own a bike, what type of riding do they do, what are they looking for in their next bike, etc. as that is how sales are done. Trust me, I have been in several local non-Harley dealerships in the last 3 months as I am looking for my next bike, and there is yet to be a time that I was greeted, asked questions like above, or had a salesperson knowledgeable about their product. The other manufacturers should learn from HD, and other motorcyclists should not condemn what someone else rides. We are ALL on 2 wheels, so let's see each other on the road and wave.

By the way, the only time I have ever been broken down on the side of the road was on a BMW, not a Harley, and it was a guy on a Harley that stopped to see if he could help.

[Kootenanny]

Good post, SR.  Regarding this comment, though:

...other motorcyclists should not condemn what someone else rides.

I believe much of the derision you see on this site, aimed at Harley riders, is based on people's experience with those (possibly few) members of the "Harley faithful" who feel compelled to deride anyone who rides anything other than a Harley.  

[ninjaridaz]

Good post, SR.  Regarding this comment, though:

I believe much of the derision you see on this site, aimed at Harley riders, is based on people's experience with those (possibly few) members of the "Harley faithful" who feel compelled to deride anyone who rides anything other than a Harley.  

Overwhelming number of hd'ers I've personally met fit into this category.

[The Shepherd]

Good post, SR.  Regarding this comment, though:

I believe much of the derision you see on this site, aimed at Harley riders, is based on people's experience with those (possibly few) members of the "Harley faithful" who feel compelled to deride anyone who rides anything other than a Harley.  

When I had my K1200S plated I couldn't ride with one guy at work because he rides with his H-D loving father and he doesn't ride with "speedbikes".

[PatM]

When I had my K1200S plated I couldn't ride with one guy at work because he rides with his H-D loving father and he doesn't ride with "speedbikes".

In some way I understand him. We don't ride the same way. I belong to a club that accepts any kind of bike as long as it's road legal. We sometimes organize  rides that we split between sports bikes, sports-tour and cruisers. The reason is although we all ride, we don't ride the same way. And that's OK by me. Sport bikes can't stand riding for long at or below the speed limit, like the cruisers do.
Instead we say, lets meet somewhere where we can have a coffee or something. We just take different routes to get there.

[dan88z]

...but ALSO there was an online training class that was about technical advantages over other companies CRUISERS.....

I'd be interested in hearing what technical advantages say, a 2008 Softtail or Dyna has over a 2008 Vulcan 1600. Because when I bought my Vulcan, I couldn't find a single thing the comparable HD bikes had that made them better than the Vulcan, and the Vulcan was 10 grand out the door. Yes, the HD had more colors to choose from, more chrome, more options, but from a technical standpoint, it had nothing over the Vulcan.

How about how HD compares to Victory?

The only place I see HD being better than a metric cruiser is in the touring bikes, because most of the metrics are behind in their development of something that compares to one of the glide type bikes. Goldwings don't count because they are in their own class with the engine type, and the HD doesn't really compare to them at all.

[JSharp]

Great thread. I was wondering how Harley could use the word power in any way related to their motorcycles.  Now I know.

[Kootenanny]

...when I bought my Vulcan, I couldn't find a single thing the comparable HD bikes had that made them better than the Vulcan...

Bar and shield on the tank?

[dan88z]

Bar and shield on the tank?

exactly. that option cost about $8k more than my Vulcan.

[Hardware]

Good post, SR.  Regarding this comment, though:

I believe much of the derision you see on this site, aimed at Harley riders, is based on people's experience with those (possibly few) members of the "Harley faithful" who feel compelled to deride anyone who rides anything other than a Harley.  

Exactly - the whole "If I have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand" BS.

[rgbeard]

I have friends that are big into the Harley Lifestyle.  They have five bikes, and a room of their house dedicated to all the HD Toys and branded items (lamps, etc. etc.).  (literally, HD toys, as in tanker trucks, toy motorcycles, etc.)  

The guy can and does ride - a lot.  He's worn-out more than one UltraGlide.  (takes under 100k miles to do so.)  
The guy rides well, and handles the Harley with ease.
On the rare occasions we ride together, he keeps the pace up to where the Trophy is not complaining

and best yet.....

Once we were at a bar/restaurant, and he overheard someone talk about a piece of "Jap Crap" in the parking lot.  He stands up, sees the guy, and says.... "Let me introduce to you my friend, and that's his BRITISH bike out there."  

Unfortunately, most of the HD lifestylers are much more like the "Jap Crap" dumbass from the restaurant, and very very few like our friends Lyn and Larry.  These are 1%ers of a different measure.

[bomber]

having not owned a Harley since between the intertubes, I don't spend much time at HD sites . . . . .

do they spend as much time bashing us as we do them?

[Mr.Black]

having not owned a Harley since between the intertubes, I don't spend much time at HD sites . . . . .

do they spend as much time bashing us as we do them?

Oh hell yes!!!

I am guilty as charged.

[TuffguyF4i]

I think what is most offensive to this sport-touring crowd, is that we see ourselves as individuals and very individualistic ones at that.  We see ourselves as adventurers and explorers.  We don't fit-in...and we don't care...and we like that about ourselves.  

This type of marketing that encourages the potential rider to 'fit-in' is a total bastardization what we get out of our riding experience.
This is the reaction i would expect from this crowd.  It was my reaction too.

[Skee]

I think this thread has missed the main point of the sales training material: Take the customer to where he/she can get his/her ego stroked. It's all about ego; not about riding... even if many of Harley riders do ride a lot.

Fact is, there are many more Harleys sold than the ones you see, and those bikes sit in garages, thought of only when the possession can be dropped into conversation and/or when the monthly payment is due.

One thing I've learned in my business career is not to argue with success.  And if HD is anything, they are successful.

Now let's get back to bashing.  Nothing ticks me off more than when someone tells me to get a real motorcycle.

[ConPilot1]

Good post, SR.  Regarding this comment, though:

I believe much of the derision you see on this site, aimed at Harley riders, is based on people's experience with those (possibly few) members of the "Harley faithful" who feel compelled to deride anyone who rides anything other than a Harley.  

That would be a big part of it. If they would stop acting like their fringe and chrome-studded leather asses and their "American Iron" was so f**ing superior to everyone and everything else, they'll get a little more acceptance from me. Plus I'm just sick of looking at them. Every bike deal up around home has been 80/20 % ratio or greater of HD to other marques. Same boring, tired pigs with different chrome skull headlights.

I had a lengthy conversation about bikes and gear with a potential noob rider who approached me in a parking lot. I get a lot of parking lot approaches from strangers up here because my bike and gear is something
not very often seen up here in my area. Some GOOMBAH in a Hardley-hat walks by, hears the discussion, and interrupts with "GET A REAL BIKE<> GET A HARLEY" while I was talking bikes to this interested person.

I responded with "F*ck those things, they're USELESS." Harley guy didn't say a word and walked into the coffee shop. I've been disrespected and laughed at so many times by Harley people, (I'm not even gonna say RIDERS because most of the ones I know are good for about 500 miles a year) that I don't even think twice about bashing "The Motor Company".

I do know one thing. In the unlikely event that I do ever wind up owning one, I'll strip the badges off the damn thing and replace all the HD logos with Japanese Rising-Sun flags and wear my hi-vis yellow gear just to piss them all off.

[bomber]

I think what is most offensive to this sport-touring crowd, is that we see ourselves as individuals and very individualistic ones at that.  We see ourselves as adventurers and explorers.  We don't fit-in...and we don't care...and we like that about ourselves.  

This type of marketing that encourages the potential rider to 'fit-in' is a total bastardization what we get out of our riding experience.
This is the reaction i would expect from this crowd.  It was my reaction too.

this is humorous (perhaps unintentionally so) . .. . . .

individuals who all dress the same way, ride similar bikes, feel happy defining "real" riders by how much they look like them  . . . . . .

I'm having trouble seeing the difference, I am.

;-}

[PatM]

I think what is most offensive to this sport-touring crowd, is that we see ourselves as individuals and very individualistic ones at that.  We see ourselves as adventurers and explorers.  We don't fit-in...and we don't care...and we like that about ourselves.  

This type of marketing that encourages the potential rider to 'fit-in' is a total bastardization what we get out of our riding experience.
This is the reaction i would expect from this crowd.  It was my reaction too.

The funny part is HD marketing is about being an individual.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2olCKnTVPI

[Rincewind]

Harley's marketing department don't care what you (or I, or most anyone on this board) thinks, because we ain't their target demographic.  We already ride motorcycles, and we don't buy into the "Harley lifestyle"--and it'd be too much effort, for too little return, to try to convince us otherwise.

I don't know, I think that XR1200X is a stunner and seems to target riders outside of the normal brand demographic.  

[bluedogok]

I have seen both types of HD riders at the same place, I was out riding in the Hill Country pretty close to Austin and stopped to get a coke at a roadhouse. I pulled in between two pretty new, loaded out HD's (Heritage Softails), a Honda Shadow and an older HD next to it that looked rather cobbled together. I definitely found out who owned what pretty quickly, the two RUBs started out making comments about my Jap Crap (I guess the British flags weren't a clue to them) and a Bandido starts into them about respecting all riders and griping about the "wannabes" who have driven Harley prices up to where "real riders" can't afford to buy them anymore. The RUBs kind of shuffled away and rode off, then the Bandido and the Shadow owner started asking me all about my Sprint. I left about 5 minutes later only to find the RUBs pulled over at a rest stop not more than two miles away.

I have had more than a few snide comments as well as compliments from HD riders, just like all other areas, there are idiots in every group. Many of the "pirate types" remind me of goths, we're so individualistic that we all look the same....

[gradus]

I've had favorable comments about the Street Triple from Harley riders.  Mostly, "this is what I'd get if I went the sport bike route."

[Hardware]

I don't know, I think that XR1200X is a stunner and seems to target riders outside of the normal brand demographic.  

You're right...the "Motor Company" will kill it in six months...

[Dan K]

I rode a Road King around Florida for a couple days last week and I had a couple people tell me 'nice bike.'  Didn't make me want to buy one.

For Florida, with very few twisties (I was in Bradenton and rode from Anna Maria island south, past Siesta Key, with some inland riding in between), the Harley was fine.  Only scraped the boards once, but I wasn't pushing it as I had a passenger most of the time.

Nice enough bikes, great cruise control for the highways, but far from my first choice of bike.  My body needs mid controls...forward controls are no good for my back.

I'd love an XR1200X by the way.

- Dan

[jhawk]

The HD test ride manual....

What's with "accompanying the customer" on the ride? and "keep it short, 8-10 miles"? and  "pre-determined route"? etc...  

The local BMW/Triumph dealer fills the gas tank, hands you the keys and just wants the bike back by closing time.  

[jeepinbanditrider]

I did a Buell test ride one time and the guy leading us was like "I'll wait for ya'll at the stop signs."  He wasn't kidding he was riding his personal Triumph and was smoking the corners in the area with me and my dad in chase on a Buell Lightning and Buell Thunderbolt.  Funnest test ride I'd ever had  

We were gone for about 20 minutes but that short ride almost made me drop the coin on the Thunderbolt (upright standard looking bike).

[dan88z]

The HD test ride manual....

What's with "accompanying the customer" on the ride? and "keep it short, 8-10 miles"? and  "pre-determined route"? etc...  

The local BMW/Triumph dealer fills the gas tank, hands you the keys and just wants the bike back by closing time.  

When I was buying my bike I tested an FJR1300 and the Connie. I went out for 45 mins. Got on the Connie. Only need 20 mins on that one to know it was what I wanted, but the point was, no limit on the ride. I think I put 40 miles on the FJR.

[rgbeard]

I'd love an XR1200X by the way.

- Dan

I don't disagree.  Would be fun to ride one for a tank of gas distance.

At 3.5 gallons it won't take long.

[Pitts2112]

My test-ride experience with HD was like Jhawk's with the dealer in Portsmouth UK, and they're located near some terrific riding/sightseeing territory, the New Forest.  The salesman asked me what I wanted to ride, handed me the keys and said "We close at 5.  The New Forest is that way."   Same thing when I took my bike in for some warranty work.  He gave me the keys to a brand new Fatboy, 12 miles on the clock.  I think I put another 100 miles on it that afternoon.  

The staff at that dealership was great.  There's one American working there who seemed a bit bonkers, but everyone else was really friendly and welcoming.

And, since no post about HD would be complete without a little bashing, the only time I've ever been snubbed by a rider was by a group of HOG riders.  And I was on a Harley.  So much for birds of a feather and all that.  The sport bike guys were always interested in the bikes and the rides (and that afternoon's cop locations), no matter what anyone rode.  The HD crowd, not so much.

[county]

Fucking Harleys weigh almost as much as an FJR....

[MichiganMan]

Fucking Harleys weigh almost as much as an FJR....

County FTW!!!  

[nferr]

I don't know. The local Harley dealer rolled out a brand new bike for me, threw me the keys, and told me take as long a ride as I wanted.

[Kootenanny]

I've also had the, "See you at closing time" as they hand you the keys, demo experience at a Harley place...that's a big part of the reason I own a Buell (although, I've had the same experience at another Harley place and also at a Yamaha place...).

[black hills]

Went for a short ride on the 990 after work last night. Stopped by the local biker bar for a couple drinks with the HD guys. I was sitting with the usual crowd ( I was the only one riding). Some guy I didn't know walked in, sat down and started to talk to the other guys. I was talking about riding to someone else and after a while he  asked the ineveitable "so, what do you ride" question:
"a KTM adventure"
"oh, the one outside"
"yea"
"those are awesome bikes! how do you like it?"
" I love it"
"yea, I've always liked those"

He didn't seem too bad to me??

[viffergyrl]

How long ago were those test rides offered at the Harley dealer? I remember in the early 2000s, the local Harley dealers did not offer test rides... but BMW did and that's why I have an RT.  

[ConPilot1]

I've done one test ride on a BMW K1300GT which was

Same thing, dealer said what are you riding now? I pointed out the window to the Connie. Dealer said "yeah then, you'll have no trouble handling this" and handed me the keys and said have fun.  

If I'm ever in a position to buy a brand new BMW, I'll give them my business.

That bike was the freaking cat's ass. First BMW I've ever ridden and it was the shit man. Hell of a motorcycle, I don't understand why
they scrapped that bike after only a year or so of production.

[bomber]

I've never heard of an HD dealer that DIDN'T offer test rides . . .that's most unusual . . . . .

It is SOP, and part of the Sales cycle for them . . . . which is smart.

[Jonathan]

Fucking Harleys weigh almost as much as an FJR....

Last time I checked the majority of Harleys weigh more than a FJR.  Just calling you out on your ignorance.

[ConPilot1]

Last time I checked the majority of Harleys weigh more than a FJR.  Just calling you out on your ignorance.

Oh F*k.  


 



You really need to hang around more.

That'll be a -1.

[jeepinbanditrider]

Last time I checked the majority of Harleys weigh more than a FJR.  Just calling you out on your ignorance.

You're new around here so as a fellow FJR owner I'm gonna pass the secret on to you for dealing with County.....our resident FJR hater troll.  Hit the ignore button on one of his posts and never look back.  

[steelerider]

So Harley is trying to capitalize on the sales process by taking people on test rides? Yawn....

[ConPilot1]

So Harley is trying to capitalize on the sales process by taking people on test rides? Yawn....

When I saw your STN handle "steelerider" I was thinking you were one of those Harley Fashion Lifestyle Lemmings with one of those big heavy fringe dripping, fancy-pants chromed out dildo yachts.

Then I was surprised to see you had a Sprint ST, i.e., a "real bike".

Welcome to STN.  

[steelerider]

Thanks dude -
I've been lurking on this forum for a long time. It's good to be here. I love the Sprint - its one hell of a bike. I just bought a 2002 BMW R1150RT with low miles in pristine condition. The Sprint is great for medium hauls, but not for a week on the road. It can be done but not as well as the beemer. I thought about selling the Sprint, I just can't do it. At least I have the option of going for a good rip on the Sprint if I need to. Now I have 2 bikes in the stable, and a wife who thinks I'm crazy. What the hell eh? You only live once. As for HD? Nah. Not my thing.

Cheers.

[stew71]

...fringe dripping, fancy-pants chromed out dildo yachts.

Thanks for the snerk, Con.  

[viffergyrl]

I've always preferred 'butt jewelry' myself.... but dildo yachts? Yup, that's pretty good.

[ConPilot1]

I didn't make that up. From the "American Angst" website, the original and best massive HD blasting site I've seen. Some funny reading there.
Especially some of the hate mail from the Lifestylers.  

[stew71]

"Making fun of the flag-slathered retards and trend humping fashion lemmings since 1993"

Oh Sweet Jeebus....

[viffergyrl]

Oy. Too much hate there for me.... talk about a wildly swinging pendulum!