Traded the fjr in on a Kawasaki Versys...

[AzItLies]

you know, it's really all about what you want a bike for isn't it?

I have no complaints about the fjr, they are awesome bikes, as are the other bikes in that category.

But sometimes the realization hits you... the category has changed for me.

So the Versys is about 200 lbs lighter (yeah, you can really feel the difference), it's about a 5" shorter wheelbase, and it gets way better gas mileage.

this isn't mine but it looks identical to it



Wish I could have 3 or 4 bikes... but alas, only 1 for me. So if most of your riding is around town type stuff... pretty sure this will be a great choice.

comments are welcome, good or bad, not going to offend me

[DogBoy]

Congratulations. I liked my WeeStrom though I'd bet I'd like the Versys a lot more. Can't wait to hear more about it.

[Lawn Dart]

Heck yeah!  Every bike I've purchased since my K100RS has been about losing weight and gaining handling.  Over the years I went from 650# to about 430#...

Gotta love it.

[Frankienuckles]

Nice ride! Are you gonna put bags on it?

[chesthing]

Givi bags, better seat and a real windscreen - sounds like a nice trade to me, looked hard at one of those myself.

[sagerat]

Buddy of mine rode his from Orygun to Alaska and back and still loves the bike.  

I still prefer the Wee, but the Verseys is a great all-arounder, too.  Happy miles!

[AzItLies]

Hey thanks everyone much appreciated.

Yup, sure do plan on getting the bags. Probably the v35 givi's but looking around at all the options. Gonna send the seat to Spencer very soon... that's a tall bike!

Gonna copy someone on the Versys forum and take off the Kawasaki versys stickers on the sides and put on Ducati stickers ... hahahahahah

oh man that just cracks me up... it will automatically increase the bikes value by ten large hahahahahah - it looks really good too, very oem

[VAbikeguy]

I know how you feel.  I went from an '81 Goldwing to an '09 KLR. For the first couple of weeks, I couldn't shake the idea that my new bike was a little toy because of the weight difference.

[jay547]

looks good, i like the color. i wanted a versys but couldn't find the deal i was looking for. i ended up with the z750s.

[CosmicCowboy]

Thought about a Versys a few times in the past. Still think about it on occasion. Congrats.

[ZZR12]

A dealer near my house has a 09, brand new with the color matched bags, for $5499. Thats a good deal, unfortunatly they don't seem to give good trade in deals. Did you trade the FJR in, or did you sell it outright?

[Rincewind]

Nice replacement scoot for your fat pig.    My neighbor has an Arrow exhaust for his Versys - a little loud but a pretty satisfying sound and I can always tell if it's him.

[sprk_sprd]

Just out of curiosity, you're not going to miss the better fairings/protection of the FJR?

I ask because you're doing the opposite of what I'm considering.  I don't have a Versys, but rather a naked SV.  I realize they're not the same bike.  But I sometimes find that on longer trips (i.e. slab) the naked SV gets to be tiring - especially during colder weather.  And while I do have heated gear, I sometimes wish I had better wind protection.  And considering how many conflicting threads I've read about whether or not GIVI and Nat'l Cycles actually improve the ride, I'm thinking about simply getting a better sport-tourer.

Thanks, and congrats on your new ride.

[bomber]

But sometimes the realization hits you... the category has changed for me.

Ohm yeah -- the kind of riding may not change, but the tool you desire to MAKE the riding, that CAN change -- a great deal . . .

Everyone I know with a Versys loves it -- it seems one of those scoots (like SVs, Stroms) that saw the planets align during the design phase -- good for you!

[Rogue]

I went from a Hayabusa to a Buell Firebolt and never regretted it, ever.

Even when compared to my VFR, the Firebolt was still way more fun.  

I always think that someday I will get a bike with hard saddlebags, top case, barn door fairing, accessories galore, etc.  But every time I think about riding those bikes, I can't stop to wonder....why not just bring a nice little sportscar?  

[Rincewind]

FWIW, and while I have a VERY hard time doing it, I've found that simply slowing down on the Interstate or in crappy weather greatly improves the fatigue I get on my naked SV. That's offset by the longer travel times, but 5 hours of 80mph is less enjoyable than 7 hours of 60mph.

FWIW...

Personally I would prefer the 5hrs @ 80mph on my naked Street Triple R.  60mph is akin to torture.  

[Rogue]

....sometimes find that on longer trips (i.e. slab) the naked SV gets to be tiring - especially during colder weather.  And while I do have heated gear, I sometimes wish I had better wind protection.  And considering how many conflicting threads I've read about whether or not GIVI and Nat'l Cycles actually improve the ride, I'm thinking about simply getting a better sport-tourer.

I have been told that simply by lowering the handlebars to create a forward riding position along with an aerodynamic helmet, the windblast & buffeting on an unfaired motorcycle is offset.  

[wibornz]

For 40 bucks, you can add the Buel footpegs that lower the pegs about 1 inch and have a wider base.  You might be surprised at how well the versys does for wind protection.  Add the handguards and you are good.  The bike handles great and is just fun all around to ride.

[black hills]

it is starting to take over, you will not be able to resist............soon a KTM......

[AzItLies]

A dealer near my house has a 09, brand new with the color matched bags, for $5499. Thats a good deal, unfortunatly they don't seem to give good trade in deals. Did you trade the FJR in, or did you sell it outright?

Wow, that sounds like a steal! dang. I've seen an 09 blue one, new, for 5k. But with the bags, that's an additional savings too as they are usually almost 1k I think.

Didn't get much on the trade in, pretty much wholesale. But they gave me the '11 at 6100 so that has to be close to wholesale too.

Just out of curiosity, you're not going to miss the better fairings/protection of the FJR?

I ask because you're doing the opposite of what I'm considering.  I don't have a Versys, but rather a naked SV.  I realize they're not the same bike.  But I sometimes find that on longer trips (i.e. slab) the naked SV gets to be tiring - especially during colder weather.  And while I do have heated gear, I sometimes wish I had better wind protection.  And considering how many conflicting threads I've read about whether or not GIVI and Nat'l Cycles actually improve the ride, I'm thinking about simply getting a better sport-tourer.

Thanks, and congrats on your new ride.

Well, so far it's working out okay. Just put another 50 miles on, you certainly feel the cold air on your legs. And a strong wind did have me buffeting around a bit more.

My biggest reason for trading is that way way way most of my riding is around town. It's only going to be 2 or 3 times a year for a long trip.

Also teach the MSF ERC classes, and demo them on my own bike. The FJR is capable, but it's a chore, and I've come close to dropping it. That would be a lot of money to replace that plastic (mirrors etc), even with frame sliders.

SW Mototech makes a very nice crash bar set up for the Versys, integrates very well with it and looks "normal". So I'll be much less concerned about dropping it (at any time), hell, it'll just add character

Have not done any Highway riding yet though... we'll see.

Ohm yeah -- the kind of riding may not change, but the tool you desire to MAKE the riding, that CAN change -- a great deal . . .

Everyone I know with a Versys loves it -- it seems one of those scoots (like SVs, Stroms) that saw the planets align during the design phase -- good for you!

Thanks Bomber much appreciated. I agree the Versys is a great bike, kind of sad it's not more popular in the States. Seems our UK cousins have a different approach to motorcycling... if you know what I mean and I think you do

I have been told that simply by lowering the handlebars to create a forward riding position along with an aerodynamic helmet, the windblast & buffeting on an unfaired motorcycle is offset.  

Agree, I *always* try to have a forward lean. The biggest reason is that the bike is so much more responsive to handlebar input. If emergency swerving was needed and your leaning on the bars it becomes much more difficult. And I have a full face Shoei and yer right, it's not bad at all.

it is starting to take over, you will not be able to resist............soon a KTM......

hahahah not too sure on that one Man... ya never know!

Hey thanks everyone, it's great to hear peoples thoughts on this. I'm sure I'll miss the feej in some circumstances. But around town, the Versys is already feeling great. I could ride up a curb and park it if I needed to. You can turn around virtually anywhere. Actually the owners manual says the turning radius is 8.9 feet! isn't that a kick in the azz I'm sure that's just straight up and walking it around, but still impressive.

Cheers All

[maddjack]

you know, it's really all about what you want a bike for isn't it?

I have no complaints about the fjr, they are awesome bikes, as are the other bikes in that category.

But sometimes the realization hits you... the category has changed for me.

So the Versys is about 200 lbs lighter (yeah, you can really feel the difference), it's about a 5" shorter wheelbase, and it gets way better gas mileage.

this isn't mine but it looks identical to it



Wish I could have 3 or 4 bikes... but alas, only 1 for me. So if most of your riding is around town type stuff... pretty sure this will be a great choice.

comments are welcome, good or bad, not going to offend me

First off congrats!! they are a great machine. I have ridden mine all over the place, its going to another national this year. I have nothing bad to say about mine or my ownership experience. Only thing I am going to do ( someday ) is upgrade the brake lines , I have a Taller after market shield on mine, a Ventura system, and a Airhawk pad, that's it. It tours  

[stromgal]

Congrats!  I watch the craiggers listings for Versii all the time, have seen used for as little as $3500.  Looking down the road, a 'smaller' bike is likely to replace my V-Strom; perhaps the new Wee or the Versys.  I like the Striple as well but want a half-faired bike.

[ANZAC]

I have been told that simply by lowering the handlebars to create a forward riding position along with an aerodynamic helmet, the windblast & buffeting on an unfaired motorcycle is offset.  

Yes, that's how I feel about my Streety.  I have thought about installing a flyscreen but the airflow is just so clean without, I am leaving her naked.  It's nice to have nothing in front of you while you look out over the handlebars.  Almost like flying  

Sometimes windscreens just chop the airflow up and create more noise and buffeting than their worth.   Just make sure you wear properly fitted gear which includes ear plugs too.

[Rogue]

I remember riding Ken Sann's Guzzi V11.  That bike had a really sporty riding position (low clip ons) but it was naked.

I was surprised at how its nakedness did not manifest itself to holding on for dear life even at 90+ mph.  In the meantime, on my Bandit 1200S (half fairing), I had to have a death grip on the bars at anything above 80 mph.  That bike had a nice windshield too.  Go figure.  

[AzItLies]

Really like yer setup there Maddjack, very nice!

Congrats!  I watch the craiggers listings for Versii all the time, have seen used for as little as $3500.  Looking down the road, a 'smaller' bike is likely to replace my V-Strom; perhaps the new Wee or the Versys.  I like the Striple as well but want a half-faired bike.

Hey Stromgal thnx!

Actually had a deposit on a '12 wee that I got back a few days before getting the versys. Been hanging at stromtroopers and was pretty excited about it. The biggest thing that changed my mind was that the wheelbase of the stroms is about 61"... that's pretty big for a middle weight, as you alluded to.

It clearly comes down to what your needs are. Guess the difficulty is being honest with yourself in that regard When I look at an MV Augusta I'm thinking "whoa yeah... that's the bike for me!!", but my sorry ol tired azz is going "what! are you out of yer f***in mind!!!"

Cheers! thnx everyone for your comments.

[Windblown]

I've owned an FJR previously.  It was an extremely good bike. It or the C14 would be my first choice to cross the country with. However for local riding and peeling thru the twisties - light feels right!

Enjoy!

[Rabon1]

I'm headed the same direction, I am going to pick up a midsize (probably a 650 Ninja) for my day rides.

[BentAero]

Shame on for giving up the FJR, but I understand.  
In the summer of 2010 I decided I wanted a lighter bike and was ready to part with my FJR, and was going to switch to a Triumph Sprint 1050GT. But after riding one, realized it just wasn't for me. Further, the economics of selling the FJR vs. purchase price of the Triumph turned me off.

I realized then that I could buy a nice used Versys or SV, keep the FJR and come out about the same, or even ahead moneywise. I looked seriously at the Versys, but ended up with a smokin' deal on a primo SV. I'm sooo glad I kept the FJR, and the SV has turned into a great track-day bike to boot.

For light touring, the Versys will be great. I know a couple people who have them and they're very happy with them. Don't be deterred by the small windscreen. A BMW GS has a tiny screen, but it has a dead-quiet pocket of air, so it can be done.

[county]

Actually most motorcycles are at least 200 lbs lighter than the FJR....

[McRider]

That Versys has a robust engine.  I have a Ninja 650 with essentially the same engine with 80,300 miles on it and other than replacing the fuel pump at 75,000 it has been trouble free.  

[AzItLies]

That Versys has a robust engine.  I have a Ninja 650 with essentially the same engine with 80,300 miles on it and other than replacing the fuel pump at 75,000 it has been trouble free.  

Hey that's good to hear thanks!

Just got back after a few hours of riding around town. It's got plenty of power to zip around cars and such. Maybe have to shift a bit more... no big.

It's a downgrade from the feej in many ways, but as our Resident FJR Expert so eloquently points out, the biggest downgrade is the weight Went on some roads today that with the feej I would have been looking for the first place to very carefully get turned around...

Not this bike. Even though it's too tall (need to fix that seat), no fear. It's so nimble and light, knew I could handle it somehow. There are quite a few options for crash bars too, and they integrate well.

BentAero, certainly wish I could have multiple bikes, just not in the cards for me right now. I'm sure my first multiple hour ride on the slab and will be missing the feej, but it's so rare. The last thing in the world I am is an Iron Butt Rider. Hey not that there's anything wrong with that... but it puts me to sleep...

Another really cool thing is that the bike is up so high, you can pretty much see over everything! Noticed that today and use to be it would be really irritating cause ya didn't know if the bonehead in front of you was causing the traffic jam or was someone else farther up! Hopefully lowering the seat won't affect that too much.

thanks again everyone for your comments!

[steelerider]

Congrats.
A big touring bike can be a chore in town. I had a Ninja 650R that had the same engine. It was fun, spunky, and easy to ride. The Versys is a great bike. Enjoy.

[Davy F.]

Congrats and health to enjoy your Versys.

In the past two years, I've gone from a BMW 12GS to a VFR to a FZ1 and now the Versys. Great middleweight bike and sooooooo much fun.

This is mine




I hope you get to enjoy your new bike as much as I enjoy mine.  

[AzItLies]

That's awesome looking Smeggy! I really like the yellow.

Thanks Bro! All the best for your enjoyment also.

[Dave.TX]

I'd say enjoy your new ride but it appears you already are! As much as I'd like an FJR for touring, I too can only have one bike so I chose an FZ6. With less than 9.2 feet of turning radius I know how you feel.

Smeggy, that's a really nice picture of your bike and the backdrop.

When I decide to get something else I'm gonna consider the Versys, have already eyed the Triumph Tiger 800 XC though... my mind will change umpteen times before changing bikes. I do like the looks of the Versys though.

[sagerat]

That is a wonderful pic.

My beef when I test sat on a buddy's Versey's was the seat canter a bit down at the nose, which left the boys less than thrilled.

My other quirk was I kept hearing that '60s Brit pop tune about ferrying across the Merseys.

[LENSMAN]

200 lbs less weight is a huge incentive to buy. If you put a lightweight can on, you'll shed at least another 10 pounds.  

[county]

200 lbs less weight is a huge incentive to buy.

Obviously not for the purchaser of an FJR...

[Giaka]

Congrats, you will like it. I like mine. I would love it if it had about 15 or 20 more HP but oh well. Never could figure out why K de-tuned the V motor. Bad move on their part, the bike just begs for more power in my opinion. Oh and it has MUCH better wind protection than a typical naked bike.

[1Arm]

My beef when I test sat on a buddy's Versey's was the seat canter a bit down at the nose, which left the boys less than thrilled.
.

Ouchfully true, but easily remedied with a couple of spacers and some tweaked aluminium strap.

[Kamzilla]

Congrats on the new ride.  

I've been wrestling with the idea of trading the VFR for either a weeStrom or Tiger XC -  the more upright position and option of going on a fire road or two are appealing.  

[AzItLies]

Congrats on the new ride.  

I've been wrestling with the idea of trading the VFR for either a weeStrom or Tiger XC -  the more upright position and option of going on a fire road or two are appealing.  

Hey thanks.

I had 2 viffers before the sport touring bikes, really liked them. More relaxed ergo's is the theme now'a'days though. FYI, the wee has a wheelbase that's about 5 inches longer than the Versys, that could be good or bad depending on your perspective. All good bikes none the less

[forester]

Solid choice

[mnxs54]

and it gets way better gas mileage.

What kind of gas mileage are you getting if I might ask?

[hugerider]

The Versys is a great city bike, but I'm doing the opposite. I'm planning on sellling the Versys and getting something more Sport-Tour-y. You'll love the Versys.

[AzItLies]

Thanks hugerider, I'm hoping so your point is spot on though, it's mostly a city bike... and that's mostly what my riding is so...

mnxs54, not enough miles to tell just yet, short people need to send their seats to be modified, so then they can't ride

But the forums I've visited are reporting 55 to as much as 60! It could be people just blowing smoke, but being a 650, seems plausible... maybe

[hugerider]

Thanks hugerider, I'm hoping so your point is spot on though, it's mostly a city bike... and that's mostly what my riding is so...

mnxs54, not enough miles to tell just yet, short people need to send their seats to be modified, so then they can't ride

But the forums I've visited are reporting 55 to as much as 60! It could be people just blowing smoke, but being a 650, seems plausible... maybe

I saw those numbers on forums too, and I never get those. High 40's sure, but not much better. I am a bit of a bigger guy, but not that big (~215lbs), lol.

[Kamzilla]

Hey thanks.

I had 2 viffers before the sport touring bikes, really liked them. More relaxed ergo's is the theme now'a'days though. FYI, the wee has a wheelbase that's about 5 inches longer than the Versys, that could be good or bad depending on your perspective. All good bikes none the less

Yeah, the VFR is a great bike, but sometimes I feel like it's "too perfect" of a bike.  It's comfortable, rides smoothly, has decent handling and braking, etc.  

I went to the IMS yesterday, and got to sit on both bikes to compare.  The Versys felt more comfortable and lighter, and I have to say that I liked it a little more than the weeStrom.  

[jeepinbanditrider]

I didn't trade but did something simliar.  I totaled my FJR last month on the 16th and instead of getting another FJR I picked up an 07 FZ6 and added the touring farkles I wanted.  I'm actually enjoying this bike a good bit more than my FJR.  Easy to ride, flickable, light even when loaded down.  It helps I was able to buy that bike with 1k miles on it along with all the touring goodies with cash outright from my insurance settlement  

I was initally worried about the half sized engine compared to the FJR but it doesnt seem to be bothered even when loaded down.  Worst mileage I've seen out of it so far has been 40 MPG riding south into a 30MPH head/side wind.  Other times it gets close to 50.

[wibornz]

Something that a lot of versys owners do in go up one tooth on the front sprocket.  Better mpg, and the bike has plenty of umpf to pull the taller gearing.  Makes the bike better at hwy speeds.

[Bama67]

I thought this was a thread on the new 1000 Versys

Oh well, congrats on the new bike, those 650 Versii are pretty fun!

[Davy F.]

The Versys is a great city bike

City bike ? Nah, it's what you want it to be.  

http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16454

[maddjack]

I saw those numbers on forums too, and I never get those. High 40's sure, but not much better. I am a bit of a bigger guy, but not that big (~215lbs), lol.

Interesting I am6 '1'  235# I average 50mpg( or better) mixed and up to 60 on highway, I have around 42K of doing so.no mods on airbox, intake or exhaust, it runs fine as built.

[maddjack]

The Versys is a great city bike, but I'm doing the opposite. I'm planning on sellling the Versys and getting something more Sport-Tour-y. You'll love the Versys.

I tour on mine, and I am not a small man, its a great road bike too.

[cbsnbiker]

I went from a Hayabusa to a Buell Firebolt and never regretted it, ever.

Even when compared to my VFR, the Firebolt was still way more fun.  

I always think that someday I will get a bike with hard saddlebags, top case, barn door fairing, accessories galore, etc.  But every time I think about riding those bikes, I can't stop to wonder....why not just bring a nice little sportscar?  

Because then you'll be in a car.  

[AzItLies]

Yeah, the VFR is a great bike, but sometimes I feel like it's "too perfect" of a bike.  It's comfortable, rides smoothly, has decent handling and braking, etc.  

I went to the IMS yesterday, and got to sit on both bikes to compare.  The Versys felt more comfortable and lighter, and I have to say that I liked it a little more than the weeStrom.  

that was how it felt to me too. The Wee doesn't weigh but maybe 20lbs more, but that longer wheel base makes it seem like a bigger bike. And, not to offend my Wee riding friends, but the wee strom forum has a thread with quite a few participants indicating the bike seems to be susceptible to corrosion, some may not care about that but I'd be bummed out, if true.

I didn't trade but did something simliar.  I totaled my FJR last month on the 16th and instead of getting another FJR I picked up an 07 FZ6 and added the touring farkles I wanted.  I'm actually enjoying this bike a good bit more than my FJR.  Easy to ride, flickable, light even when loaded down.  It helps I was able to buy that bike with 1k miles on it along with all the touring goodies with cash outright from my insurance settlement  

I was initally worried about the half sized engine compared to the FJR but it doesnt seem to be bothered even when loaded down.  Worst mileage I've seen out of it so far has been 40 MPG riding south into a 30MPH head/side wind.  Other times it gets close to 50.

sorry to hear about that total, that sucks when that happens. I'm finding out the same thing, the Versys has to be shifted sooner, but of course it's a 6 speed vs a 5 speed. And the Versys is so much lighter it doesn't need that much HP to propel it along quickly. And I'd be happy with 50, especially when just breaking in. I'm pretty light and am hoping for 55 or so... we'll see

Something that a lot of versys owners do in go up one tooth on the front sprocket.  Better mpg, and the bike has plenty of umpf to pull the taller gearing.  Makes the bike better at hwy speeds.

I've read about this, and may look really closely at it. But gonna find out first how it does stock of course Planning a ride to Cali-forn-Eye-eh soon and gonna ride up and down the Pacific Coast... just for the hell of it

City bike ? Nah, it's what you want it to be.  

http://www.kawasakiversys.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16454

And this is so true Smegs. I'd say the bikes "forte'" is more nimble and urban type riding, but that is absolutely not to say that it can't tour. I do both types with a lean more towards urban, and I'm sure it's going to be great for both... for me

Interesting I am6 '1'  235# I average 50mpg( or better) mixed and up to 60 on highway, I have around 42K of doing so.no mods on airbox, intake or exhaust, it runs fine as built.

My experience so far, completely agree maddjack. Time will tell and it's great to know there are options to modify things. Waiting to get my seat back from Spencer... I need a ride fix!!

Because then you'll be in a car.  

hahahahah yeah... that sucks

[Giaka]

But the forums I've visited are reporting 55 to as much as 60! It could be people just blowing smoke, but being a 650, seems plausible... maybe

With stock fueling I always got OVER 60 mpg (bike ran like ass though). Those are GPS miles by the way. Since I tweaked the TPS and changed the front sprocket (smaller) I am getting a consistent 55 mpg. I have never gotten less than 50 mpg. I have always run a decent size windshield and my commute is half mountain riding and half highway.

This is my typical commute setup. Sometimes I toss on the sidecases.

[AzItLies]

That's an awesome setup Giaka, really like it.

Those are SW mototech bars yes? I'm putting Givi's on mine today. There's a LOT of versatility in these bikes (yes, I know where the name came from ). Do what you did and make it more off road capable... keep it more street... etc etc.

Love the beemer stickers... that's gonna piss em off! yeah!! hahahahah I saw one with Ducati stickers, my hearts set on that! hahahah

Very Nice Man! Looks Great in Green

[maddjack]

One suggestion is to put a hugger on if you ride in the rain at all, the rooster tail is unreal and it sprays some electrical components too. I have one on mine

[AzItLies]

One suggestion is to put a hugger on if you ride in the rain at all, the rooster tail is unreal and it sprays some electrical components too. I have one on mine

Thanks maddjack, have been looking at options for a hugger but man they ain't cheap! Installed hyper lites and got the wires to go in the slot all the OEM wires are... *should* be okay there. But as you say there's a lot of electrical sheeeet back there to be concerned about...

maybe I'll just end up dodging the rain drops?

[Davy F.]

My cheap as chips 'hugger'. Well, maybe best described as a crap flap.  

[AzItLies]

Ahhhh yes!! that's exactly what I've been thinking about doing Smeggy!

Thanks for those pictures. My fjr had a very similar thing on it stock and it worked quite well. Even a 200 dollar hugger isn't going to protect things much better...

That's great stuff man, I'll do something very similar

[maddjack]

Ahhhh yes!! that's exactly what I've been thinking about doing Smeggy!

Thanks for those pictures. My fjr had a very similar thing on it stock and it worked quite well. Even a 200 dollar hugger isn't going to protect things much better...

That's great stuff man, I'll do something very similar

Beat me to the suggestion, those flaps work, I ran into a deal on Ebay for my Hugger , which is the only reason I changed out. As you said , cheap they are not.

[sportrider]

great idea, thanks.