What are the Euro mfgs doing that the Japanese aren't?

[atadaskew]

Most of the Euro mfgs have been posting sales increases.

Latest is Ducati with a 43% gain:

http://blogs.motorcyclistonline.com/ducati-north-america-reports-43-percent-growth-2011-2613.html

Over the past weekend I visited my local Euro shop and the local Honda/Kawi dealer.
The Honda shop was empty, not a customer in site even though they had new bikes like the 2012 CBR1000RR (which looks sweet in the HRC colours).
The Duc/Aprilia/MV Agusta/Guzzi shop was hopping with what seemed like half the bikes there having 'sold' signs on them. (They had maybe 30 bikes in the showroom)

So what are the Japanese doing wrong?

[ridingfar]

The big Jap manufacturers don't inspire passion about the machines and riding them like the Euro Mfgr's do. There are a few notable exceptions, but not nearly as broadly across the brands and models.

[tigertim955]

Euro brands have the allure of affordable "exotica".

When you ride a Ducati or Guzzi guys in Ferraris' give you a wave. I had a guy in a Lambo chase me down to have a look at what I was riding. In the big picture that kind of thing isn't important but it feels good to be part of a unique club that Japanese marques can't get into.

Never even got a nod from a Camry driver when I was on my various Kawis.

[DogBoy]

The % are worthless without the actual numbers. A 43% increase by Ducati N.A. is hardly a blip on the sales chart for the Japanese. Ducati sells somewhere between five and ten thousand bikes in the US. (Same for BMW. Truimph sells around 12-15,000 IIRC) The Japanese brands each need to sell over a hundred thousand (or more) to get by in the US market. So what if Ducati sells an extra 1,500 bikes. That doesn't mean anything others than they are appealing to slightly more of a narrow, well-heelled market. When the economy comes back and credit is easier to get, the Japanese brands will post large sales gains. Until their market has access to credit again, they will stagnate.

[McRider]

Honda, for one, has definitely lost its Mojo.  They used to be innovators and sell bikes that everybody else copied.  All at reasonable prices.  Now they sell expensive, wierd looking bikes that have features nobody wants, like auto transmissions.  Maybe they make their money selling cars and don't care.  

Kawasaki seems to be the hard charger of the Japanese brands.  

BMW and Triumph seem to have a lock on the adventure touring segment, which is the hot seller nowadays.  

[atadaskew]

The % are worthless without the actual numbers. A 43% increase by Ducati N.A. is hardly a blip on the sales chart for the Japanese. Ducati sells somewhere between five and ten thousand bikes in the US. (Same for BMW. Truimph sells around 12-15,000 IIRC) The Japanese brands each need to sell over a hundred thousand (or more) to get by in the US market. So what if Ducati sells an extra 1,500 bikes. That doesn't mean anything others than they are appealing to slightly more of a narrow, well-heelled market. When the economy comes back and credit is easier to get, the Japanese brands will post large sales gains. Until their market has access to credit again, they will stagnate.

You should tell that to the Japanese dealerships that have bikes collecting dust on the showroom floors.
I'm sure it would make those shop owners feel better.
 

[cbsnbiker]

The 99% (customers of Japanese brands) don't have the spare dollars to spend.

The 1% (customers of Euro brands) do.

 ...

Oh, wait, this isn't P.O.  

[jeepinbanditrider]

The prices are also getting closer Japanese vs. Euro bikes so if you have the money to get what you want in a Japanese flavor for a little bit more you can get the "exotic" euro branded bike or the euro bike that you always wanted years ago but couldnt' afford compared to a Japanese bike.

[atadaskew]

It's the exchange rate. Japanese bikes have always been seen as the everyman-affordable options. Now that the yen and dollar exchange is AFU, the Euro stuff that people have always said "some day..." is looking like a bargain in many cases, and as reachable-dreams in many others. It's money, pure and simple.

If a dream has become reachable, then what made that the dream to start off?

What you are suggesting is buying Japanese has always been the back up choice as they are not as desirable (for whatever reason) as the European choice.  

If this is the case, then with the price difference rapidly shrinking between the two, the Japanese should really be worried for the future.

[TBone]

My decision-making process was as follows:
1: I have a limited amount of disposable income.
2: If I'm going to spend it on a bike, it has to be somewhat "special" ie, not generic UJM.
3: Visit nearest Triumph dealer.
4: profit! (them, not me, unfortunately)

[atadaskew]

The 99% (customers of Japanese brands) don't have the spare dollars to spend.

The 1% (customers of Euro brands) do.

 ...

Oh, wait, this isn't P.O.  

That would make sense if the Euro bikes were much more expensive than the Japanese bikes.
But seeing that they are very close in price in many cases it does not.

Why would a Ducati 848 EVO at $14K sell, while a Yamaha R1 at $14K does not?
Why would a BMW K13S at $16K sell while a Honda VFR1200 at $16K does not?

[Bowtie76]

If a dream has become reachable, then what made that the dream to start off?

What you are suggesting is buying Japanese has always been the back up choice as they are not as desirable (for whatever reason) as the European choice.  

If this is the case, then with the price difference rapidly shrinking between the two, the Japanese should really be worried for the future.

Agreed,  look at most of the comparos.  Japanese bikes still win most of those, and your not seeing Ducati winning on Sundays.  MV's are expensive but when was the last time one won a shootout.

I think euro bikes look better and seem to be a little softer around the edges, making them much better allround bikes and not just crusers and RR's like the japanese bikes.

[bomber]

I think a lot of it might have to do with the respective sizes of the companies -- the Euros are tiny, compared to the big 4, and can turn on a dime to change marketing and sales pitches -- they can turn on a quarter to actually change their products.

The big 4 are, well, big, and their operations demand a certain volume to be profitable -- this makes them much more risk averse than the Euros, and it takes em longer to make any changes.

[DogBoy]

You should tell that to the Japanese dealerships that have bikes collecting dust on the showroom floors.
I'm sure it would make those shop owners feel better.
 

Doesn't make it any less true.

[Rincewind]

The Euro/Brit brands work hard to make their bikes desireable.  They appeal to their own positive cultural nuances: Italian stuff is innately beautiful and desireable; Brit stuff is inherently strong and brawly.  Some of the Japanese bikes, such as the CB1000R for instance, appear to be great bikes, but Honda makes little-to-no effort to make it desireable (no extra colors, no extra features, special order).  That is despite the CB1000R having many positive qualities associated with Japanese - efficient, smooth, and well assembled (though ironically the CB1000R is assembled in Italy).

If I ran America Honda or another of the American branches of Japanese bikes, I would at least make an attempt to make these bikes desirable.  And I'd bring bikes to the US that people would get excited about, such as naked bikes, retro bikes, and adventure bikes.  The thing that's needed is excitement - it doesn't matter what country it's built in.

[Rincewind]

I was in the nearest (1hr away!) Ducati shop just yesterday, which also carries Kawa-Suki.  Upon entering the store I was presented with not one color Multistrada, but 3 or 4 colors in different trims, one of which was a lovely special-edition Pike's Peak version.  And walking by the Monsters, I was presented with a whole line-up of colors and options like I was walking into a brothel.  The SS bikes were pure bling with red-wheels and exciting angles.  

Then you look over at the Kawa-suki's and there is one color bike by itself, that's it.  They don't import Bandits and Stroms in many colors.  They don't cater to the consumer, they just offer "one-size fits all" on many of their models.  Will I travel 1hr to buy or service a bike that I'm excited about, instead of a bike that I can buy in my own town or county?  Yes - definitely.  Would I rather buy a bike nearby?  Yes!  Definitely!

[black hills]

I think the Euro brands are taking a marketing tip from HD. I was at the GP in Indy last year and the Ducati island was far more impressive than anything the big 4 did

[Giaka]

So what are the Japanese doing wrong?

Rehashing the same old shit and putting us to sleep with boring designs. I blame Honda.    Japan has been making motorcycles for a long time. Why did BW beat them to the pendulum lighting thing? That's a no brainer. It should have been standard equipment on bikes YEARS ago. Not to mention the price gap is not that big anymore. I have a choice now for $14,000, a CBR1000RR or a BMW S1000RR? You could not have said that 10 or 15 years ago.

[stk0308]

Japanese sportbikes, dirtbikes, and sporttourers to a certain extent, are sold every year on the "Newer!  Faster!  Improved!" catch phrases.  So that is what that consumer expects, if they don't see it, as they have these past few years, they don't want to buy new bikes.  This does not explain the Japanese cruiser market, which I have no real experience with.

Euro-brand consumers are used to a model evolving, without the big "Newer!  Faster!  Improved!" branding.  So they're not put off by buying a bike not being touted as the latest-greatest thing.

These are just my observation developed opinions.  I could be wrong.

[Kneescrubber]

So what are the Japanese doing wrong?

I suppose the same question could have been asked of the European manufacturers back in the 80's and 90's.

[gritsngravy]

I believe the Euros are making inroads in the US  due to their understanding of todays American rider.    Much like Harley the euros know buyers want some pretty bling to go with their rides.   Like someone pointed out the euros offer muliple color choices + all kinds of electric gizmos that are all the rage in certain circles.   Bikes have long been relegated to recreational vehicle status in the US, toys essentially and the Euro brands are like the new Gi Joes with the kung fu grip, every kid wants THAT!!


The worlds largest motorcycle manufacturer, Honda, has evolved and diversified itself over the years, cars, lawnmowers, airplanes, robots!?!   They may not be the darling trendy bike of the day but they, like the other Japanese makes have been rocking for decades globally.        

Should the Japanese be worried?   Who knows, personally I believe its way to early for hand wringing and concern about the Japanese being buried by European machinery.   Lets see what the next 30 years brings.  

[tomek]

Why would a Ducati 848 EVO at $14K sell, while a Yamaha R1 at $14K does not?
Why would a BMW K13S at $16K sell while a Honda VFR1200 at $16K does not?

In the case of Ducati people want to have that full Italian bike experience , like + 1000$ bill from the dealer for valve adjustments and belts replacement . Yamaha with its 26600 miles intervals is kind of boring in this regard .

BMW - people like to get stranded in strange places when FD explodes . Remember ,  sport-touring is about journey ,   arriving on time at destination is kind of pointless and unatractive .Those  trips when nothing goes wrong are boring and quickly forgotten .  

[garry]

I think the Euro brands are simply exploiting the niche markets. The Japanese focus on cruisers and race-rep sport bikes because that's what the huge majority of the US market wants and buys. Sport-touring, adventure-touring, and sporty nakeds don't sell in quantity, so the Japanese don't put a lot of effort into those markets (with a few exceptions). That leaves the door open for the Euro brands that are happy to sell 10K bikes a year in the US to be more creative. The people that frequent this site tend to be more interested in those niche markets, so we buy a lot of Euro bikes.

[keepergale]

I think it is the cool factor. UJM bikes are reliable beyond belief. Faster than anyone needs. 30 years ago people couldn't even imagine this kind of quality and reliability. Now they are found lacking. There is a very real coolness factor involved. I look forward to visits to GP Motorcycles here is San Diego. Paul the owner makes Ducati ownership special. (The same can be said for the local Triumph and BMW dealer.) You kind of feel you have just been welcomed into the family. The showrooms layout and feel just screams motorcycles. The big multiline dealers feel impersonal. They could be selling anything.His staff rides and really like what they sell. You don't feel pressured to buy or get the feeling the salesman is desperate. They also do pretty good sales of Ducati apparel. You just don't see folks proudly wearing their Yamaha T shirts.
 I do agree the euro manufactures have been more nimble as far as jumping in to new niche's in the market.

[Rabidsnipe]

Haven't seen anyone mention the used market.  The huge volume Japanese companies move also means there is much more available to be found used.  Having a perception (right or wrong) of super reliability, cheap/easy to maintain, great parts availability means more people consider used Japanese product.  I think the used market hurts Japanese manufacturers much more than Euro brands.

[wibornz]

I think that the Euro mfgs are on track.  They are building bikes that move the soul.  They are getting everything right on the bikes.  There is more to a bike than numbers on a page.  Not just changing decals year after year after year after year.  

Kawasaki is the only one four the big four that has done anything with their bikes in many years.  Hell even the tried and true KLR got updated.

Have you ever noticed that a chick is instantly prettier next to a Ducati 999 or 1198 or hell any Ducati.  hahahaha

[jeepinbanditrider]

I think it is the cool factor. UJM bikes are reliable beyond belief. Faster than anyone needs. 30 years ago people couldn't even imagine this kind of quality and reliability. Now they are found lacking. There is a very real coolness factor involved. I look forward to visits to GP Motorcycles here is San Diego. Paul the owner makes Ducati ownership special. (The same can be said for the local Triumph and BMW dealer.) You kind of feel you have just been welcomed into the family. The showrooms layout and feel just screams motorcycles. The big multiline dealers feel impersonal. They could be selling anything.His staff rides and really like what they sell. You don't feel pressured to buy or get the feeling the salesman is desperate. They also do pretty good sales of Ducati apparel. You just don't see folks proudly wearing their Yamaha T shirts.
 I do agree the euro manufactures have been more nimble as far as jumping in to new niche's in the market.

Hey I rented a Duc Multistrada from GP cycles about a year ago still have my T-shirt .  Paul worked with me when I was having rental problems even though he said they don't see a dime of the money from the rental getup.  

I'm sopoused to be getting stationed out in SD possibly next year and I've been temped to find a used Duc or Aprillia and if I do I'm going to buy from them

[Rabon1]

The Japanese offer bland they sell you a motorcycle, their competitors sell you a part of you thats been missing.  

[tvpierce]

"What are the Euro mfgs doing that the Japanese aren't?"

Making bikes that people actually want to buy!  

[Silverbird]

Great topic.

The Japanese are a very interesting culture it seems. They are content to let their competitors take the lead from time to time only to rebound with a new vision and better products.  They are also set in their ways (especially Honda ) and customers have little influence over thier decision making.  It seems to be getting better through, the new C14 has some excellent improvements all from rider feedback.. Hopefully it sells well and sends a good message, but don't get your hopes up.

I couldn't be more frustrated with Honda as should everyone else.  The VFR1200 should have been the bike that change sport-touring forever. They had the money, resources, and power to create something truely spectacular.  They also had the time and budget as well. The XX's development was over almost a decade ago and the VFR's development was due for a makeover.   The VFR is a perfect of a spectacular motorcycle that hardly anyone gives a crap about because of a handful of poor development decision.

They are also charging more and more for their bikes so the other Japanese makes would be stupid for not raising their prices as well.  I think we should stop referring to Honda as "Honda" around here and just use the "facepalm"


 

[Kootenanny]

"What are the Euro mfgs doing that the Japanese aren't?"

Making bikes that people actually want to buy!  

Lots of others saying this, but this quote is the best!

It seems to me that the Euro manufacturers have traditionally been smaller, more "enthusiast" builders...with great ideas, but sometimes spotty manufacturing.  The Japanese motorcycle industry, on the other hand, is just that--an industry.  Kawasaki, for example, has one small division that builds bikes--they also make everything from excavators to ocean freighters.  Honda, as someone else mentioned, builds everything from lawnmowers to cars to jets to robots.  Yamaha started off building musical instruments, and still makes those as well as stereo equipment and I'm sure lots of other things.  And hell, I drive a Suzuki 4X4 SUV...indeed, Suzuki is one of the world's major automakers.

Compare this to Ducati, Moto Guzzi, or Triumph--each of which makes motorcycles, and nothing else (AFAIK).  These companies are not afraid to introduce "niche" bikes, unlike the Big Four which want "mass appeal" bikes.  Up until recently, I think this was understood, and reflected in the pricing...small-production machinery always tends to cost more.  But modern manufacturing processes and equipment now allow the smaller Euro builders to compete pricewise, and suddenly, people are waking up to the fact that they can afford a more "exotic" motorcycle, one which isn't just a utilitarian appliance.

[Silverbird]

There used to be a stigma that non-japanese bikes we not as reliable as Euro bikes. Is this still known to be true?

[sagerat]

To me the Euro dealers have always been smaller, more personal, and just bikes.  

[phatphil]

Volume goes down, price needs to go up as volume doesn't go up with lower price.  The latest Japanese offerings seems to drop in price using factory rebates to a greater extent.  Getting much harder to offer more performance and relatively easier to manufacture reliability, durability and without defects.  The Europeans definitely offer more character but the Japanese lower maintenance costs/effort, durability, reliability is still a significant factor.  It's the law of diminishing returns.  The Japanese should, imo, come out with something that is significantly lower price but slightly lower performance/cutting edge.  ie, what's wrong with a few year old design but include stuff like tank protectors, heated grips, upgraded exhaust, brakes, brake lines, wheels, tires, and suspension.  Trying to win a serious ultimate speed contest with the Germans is going to cost you.  Is that what is most important to customers?  Maybe, maybe not...  In efforts of manufactures to offer more, what is "more" maybe is not what it was.  A brand new with tried and tested farkles, warranty and some, uh, "character" might be a way to offer more value.  Kawasaki seems to be doing more than others, I agree.              

[falcofred]

The Japanese, particularly Honda keeps manufacturing motorcycles they feel we need, with features they think we need linked linked brakes and automatic transmissions.
They don't understand that motorcycles are not a need, no one needs a motorcycle, particularly here in the USA, motorcycles are not a need, they are a want.
The European manufacturers understand, they are manufacturing motorcycles we want, motorcycles we lust after, motorcycles that are more than just the machine, it's the entire ownership experience, from clubs, to options, to clothing and accessories.
Every European manufacturer provides a large glossy color catalog of optional accessories and clothing with every bike they sell, Honda offers a gel seat, and tank protectors for the CBR1000R, they also do offer a race kit, but they just don't make you want their bikes.

[phatphil]

Maybe the Japanese don't understand lust.  It's inappropriate, rude and awkward.  Romance has no practicality or usefulness.  Just talking outta me ass but throwing it out there, regardless....

[cbsnbiker]

There used to be a stigma that non-japanese bikes we not as reliable as Euro bikes. Is this still known to be true?

If anything, it's the other way around now.

[JonS]

One thing I think nobody has mentioned is that Euro dealers will actually let you test ride bikes. In the case of  Ducati Seattle they will actually encourage you to try bikes out. That in turn lets you feel how well the bikes handle and how light they are. Even the lower cost ones. It's an eye opening experience.
The Japanese bikes that perform so well are the super sport models, which most riders past their early 30s, realize are uncomfortable and have performance that the rider will never see the full range of.

[keepergale]

If anything, it's the other way around now.

The Japanese have their issue's but keeping their reliability up to the Euro's level is not one of them.

[robrm250]

this is comming from a person who did some bike shopping this year, here is my observation from someone who buys at least one bike per year either dirt or stree for last 20 yrst.I was in the market for about 9mths. I narrowed it down to Aprillia Tuono,or Triumph speed triple.When you go in the Euro bike dealerships you get the feeling they are riders and friendlier, kind of like the Harley feeling Harley riders get when they go to dealerships.They are bike queers,they talk about bikes most of people in their dealerships ride.When you go in Japanese dealerships now most or owned by either corporations or some sour puss dealer that is mad at the world.You walk in and nobody talks to you but maybee some 15yr old girl at the door,some kid may come help you but knows nothing about bikes starts the deal at sticker adds all sorts of extra's and jerks you around for hour or so,then the manager shows up from he is from some other state just took over of course and thinks your stupid for another 15min. if they wait on you(corporate store).The sour puss owner stores you get a grunt and maybee some acknowledgement you walked in but no tingly feeling they want to sell me a bike,but there is one  independent shop I like but unfortunately he has to stock mostly atv's and side by sides now to stay in bussiness.It seems the Asians or letting KTM,GasGas,Husqvarna take over dirt segment unless you ride supercross.I digress all said and done I ended up driving 3hrs to buy vfr1200f because of price,they beat my local corporate store by over $2000,known dependability,and I haven't owned an interceptor since 1986.

[Kneescrubber]

this is comming from a person who did some bike shopping this year, here is my observation from someone who buys at least one bike per year either dirt or stree for last 20 yrst.I was in the market for about 9mths. I narrowed it down to Aprillia Tuono,or Triumph speed triple.When you go in the Euro bike dealerships you get the feeling they are riders and friendlier, kind of like the Harley feeling Harley riders get when they go to dealerships.They are bike queers,they talk about bikes most of people in their dealerships ride.When you go in Japanese dealerships now most or owned by either corporations or some sour puss dealer that is mad at the world.You walk in and nobody talks to you but maybee some 15yr old girl at the door,some kid may come help you but knows nothing about bikes starts the deal at sticker adds all sorts of extra's and jerks you around for hour or so,then the manager shows up from he is from some other state just took over of course and thinks your stupid for another 15min. if they wait on you(corporate store).The sour puss owner stores you get a grunt and maybee some acknowledgement you walked in but no tingly feeling they want to sell me a bike,but there is one  independent shop I like but unfortunately he has to stock mostly atv's and side by sides now to stay in bussiness.It seems the Asians or letting KTM,GasGas,Husqvarna take over dirt segment unless you ride supercross.I digress all said and done I ended up driving 3hrs to buy vfr1200f because of price,they beat my local corporate store by over $2000,known dependability,and I haven't owned an interceptor since 1986.

That was really hard to read.   I did get the gist of it though.

[Kootenanny]

One thing I think nobody has mentioned is that Euro dealers will actually let you test ride bikes. In the case of  Ducati Seattle they will actually encourage you to try bikes out.

I think it's a dealer specific thing...while yeah, the overall feeling my be that most Big Four dealers don't allow demo rides, in fact I had an excellent demo ride experience at a Yamaha dealer once (he sent me out on bikes I told him I had no intention of buying, he still insisted I try 'em out...).  The only other place I've had that kind of demo experience was at a Harley/Buell shop (one reason I own a Buell...).  Euro-specific dealers are sparse in my area, and while I have attended a few organized demo days at the closest Ducati/Triumph/BMW shop when the demo trailer is in town (always on a weekday, BTW), they sure aren't keen on letting anyone ride any of their stock bikes--just like most of the Big Four dealers in the area.

[Papa Lazarou]

Um, is it because Yurpeen bikes are better made and better than most Japanese bikes?

Honda is the leading brand. Theor creativity and, more importantly, finish/ quality has dropped. Mind you, so has BMW.

So-Triumph, Ducati, Aprilia, KTM,  MG-these peeps are simply making the best motorcycles in the world right now.

[cbsnbiker]

I think it's a dealer specific thing...while yeah, the overall feeling my be that most Big Four dealers don't allow demo rides, in fact I had an excellent demo ride experience at a Yamaha dealer once (he sent me out on bikes I told him I had no intention of buying, he still insisted I try 'em out...).  The only other place I've had that kind of demo experience was at a Harley/Buell shop (one reason I own a Buell...).  Euro-specific dealers are sparse in my area, and while I have attended a few organized demo days at the closest Ducati/Triumph/BMW shop when the demo trailer is in town (always on a weekday, BTW), they sure aren't keen on letting anyone ride any of their stock bikes--just like most of the Big Four dealers in the area.

My understanding is that BMW dealers in the U.S. must offer demo rides. Not every model will be available, and certainly not every bike in stock, but they all offer demo rides.

I don't know about other marques.

[Kootenanny]

My understanding is that BMW dealers in the U.S. must offer demo rides. Not every model will be available, and certainly not every bike in stock, but they all offer demo rides.

I don't know about other marques.

Well, the BMW shop I'm talking about certainly doesn't seem to offer demo rides, unless it's an organized demo day with BMW Canada's bikes.  And I have yet to make one of those mesh with my schedule...(keep in mind, for me it's not just a matter of going across town, it's a 4-hour trip each way, and in spring when they hold the demos it's likely to be pissing rain and the roads will still be covered with muck from winter road sanding...).

[cbsnbiker]

Well, the BMW shop I'm talking about certainly doesn't seem to offer demo rides, unless it's an organized demo day with BMW Canada's bikes.  And I have yet to make one of those mesh with my schedule...(keep in mind, for me it's not just a matter of going across town, it's a 4-hour trip each way, and in spring when they hold the demos it's likely to be pissing rain and the roads will still be covered with muck from winter road sanding...).

I haven't a clue about BMW dealers in Canada.

[Kootenanny]

I haven't a clue about BMW dealers in Canada.

Just making the comment.  Maybe I'll have to check out a BMW place somewhere in the States.  I've ridden lots of bikes, but not once in my life have I had the chance to sample a Beemer...

[sagerat]

Down here below the 49th Parallel, I've never met a Beemer dealer that didn't allow test rides.  

It's the tradeoff we get as your portion of the Rockies are more impressive than ours.  

[Orson]

With the same ruthless efficiency that the Italian Military demonstrated when they defeated Ethiopia, Moto Guzzi quietly plans for World Domination from its secret lair withing the mountain behind the factory.



If it weren't for the three hour lunches and sporadic parts service, we'd all be speaking Italian by now.

[Mydlyfkryzis]

I've test ridden Ducati's  (Every year the Duc Truck comes around), and my buddy has test ridden BMW and Harley. I have NEVER been offered a ride on a Japanese Bike. when I was looking for a bike, I went to sit on a Honda 919 in the dealership, and was chased off.

The 919 was price competitive with a Ducati GT1000. I rode the GT 1000 and it was a marvelous bike. It is on my short list. If I get the $, the Ducati Multistrada 1200S is the one I really want (Ridden this one too). Maybe the Japanese have a bike, that once I ride it, I will lust for it, but I may never know around here, because our dealers are reluctant to even let you sit on the seat.

I haven't hit a nearby Triumph Dealer, so the jury is still out, but I know the dealer encourages test rides, even test "days".

The Honda Dealer of today is so much less friendly and motorcycle oriented than when I started riding in 1971.

This is what I think is hurting the Japanese brands the most.

[sammyseaman]

Down here below the 49th Parallel, I've never met a Beemer dealer that didn't allow test rides. 

The European manufacturers and dealers are doing two things. They allow test rides on new bikes. Try asking a Japanese bike dealer for a spin on a new bike. They nearly have a fuckin heart attack. And the European models are interesting and fun. If I'm gonna ride I'm finnet ride a fun bike. I don't give two shits if its just for commuting or for weekend riding. I won't own a boring (practical) bike again.

[sammyseaman]

Maybe the Japanese don't understand lust.  It's inappropriate, rude and awkward.  Romance has no practicality or usefulness.  Just talking outta me ass but throwing it out there, regardless....

You may have hit the nail on the head with that statement.

[sammyseaman]

Rince brought up a good point. Maybe when you're on top for a long time the fire kinda dies or maybe you get a little too complacent. Ego, I think, plays a HUGE part of this. The Japanese and Honda especially have developed a HUGE ego with their success and have seemed to say to themselves "If we offer them fancy shmantzy new-age gizmo technology and a new paint color they will buy it. We don't need to listen to our customers because they will buy our product, damnit".

[TuffguyF4i]

I for one think the jap bikes have lots to offer.  (aside from super cheap used parts on ebay )  Good price.  Legacy of reliability.  More performance than anyone can handle.  

maybe it's just me, but i find this inspiring.  

[cbsnbiker]

I take a more utilitarian view of motorcycle ownership than many others do.

Looks are less important to me. Ditto "character." In fact, in some ways I don't like what some people refer to as "character." For example, the smoother and quieter a bike is, the more I like it.

I want a motorcycle to do a particular set of jobs.

I also like to have good dealer support.

I happen to own BMW bikes. If my local Japanese dealers were better, I might very well own one or more of their bikes.

[Orson]

smooth and quiet?  

bicycles are smooth and quiet  

motorcycles make noises that make small children point giddily while their mothers frown disapprovingly  

[atadaskew]

I for one think the jap bikes have lots to offer.  (aside from super cheap used parts on ebay )  Good price.  Legacy of reliability.  More performance than anyone can handle.  

maybe it's just me, but i find this inspiring.  

Those are already discounted down to $10K new.
Which suggests that most do not find it inspiring.
Even though it offers more 'performance' than a $14K Duc 848 EVO which are not discounted.

[jeepinbanditrider]

That's because a motorcycle isn't a rational well thought out logical purchase especailly here in 'Merica.  It's about what "looks cool" or sounds cool or simply the owner likes for no other reason than he likes it.  

[atadaskew]

That's because a motorcycle isn't a rational well thought out logical purchase especailly here in 'Merica.  It's about what "looks cool" or sounds cool or simply the owner likes for no other reason than he likes it.  

What are the sales stats like in Europe?  Anyone know?
A few months back I read an article in one of the Euro rags that showed pretty much the same behaviour as over here.  Especially since there the price delta between Euro and Japanese bikes seem to be much smaller.

[Kootenanny]

I take a more utilitarian view of motorcycle ownership than many others do.

Looks are less important to me. Ditto "character." In fact, in some ways I don't like what some people refer to as "character." For example, the smoother and quieter a bike is, the more I like it.

I want a motorcycle to do a particular set of jobs.

I also like to have good dealer support.

I happen to own BMW bikes. If my local Japanese dealers were better, I might very well own one or more of their bikes.

Hmmm.  Well, I guess difference is the spice of life.

If I want "utilitarian," I drive my SUV (sport-utility vehicle).  I can carry stuff, tow a utility trailer, go through the snow, etc.

I ride a motorcycle more for enjoyment than for utility.  The actual riding experience is important to me.  I don't want "smooth and quiet," I want a bit of noise and commotion; I want to ride a motorcycle, not a utility vehicle.

Dealer support?--well, where I live, unless you have a Honda or Yamaha, there is NO dealer support no matter which brand you own, so...  Being somewhat mechanically competent has it's own rewards.

But, that's me (although, judging by this thread, I'm not alone...).

[Croak]

There's also status appeal.  Roll up on a European bike, you are generally accorded more "cred" by the civilians, you stand a little taller, you shine a little brighter, and your breath is fresher.  

[cbsnbiker]

Hmmm.  Well, I guess difference is the spice of life.

If I want "utilitarian," I drive my SUV (sport-utility vehicle).  I can carry stuff, tow a utility trailer, go through the snow, etc.

I ride a motorcycle more for enjoyment than for utility.  The actual riding experience is important to me.  I don't want "smooth and quiet," I want a bit of noise and commotion; I want to ride a motorcycle, not a utility vehicle.

Dealer support?--well, where I live, unless you have a Honda or Yamaha, there is NO dealer support no matter which brand you own, so...  Being somewhat mechanically competent has it's own rewards.

But, that's me (although, judging by this thread, I'm not alone...).

It's just a different mindset.

Of course, I do not claim to be *merely* utilitarian about this. If I were, I wouldn't own a motorcycle, since it would not be practical for me to do without a car.

I just find that I'm closer to the utilitarian side of things than many (most?) other riders I've met.

Re dealers: if I had to, I could walk to the BMW dealer from my domicile. (I could take the bus part way.) Ditto a Japanese dealer with which, unless its reputation changes, I won't be doing business. OTOH, the nearest, say, Triumph dealer is over 100 miles away (last I checked).

There's also status appeal.  Roll up on a European bike, you are generally accorded more "cred" by the civilians, you stand a little taller, you shine a little brighter, and your breath is fresher.  

OTOH, chicks tend to pay less attention to BMWs.   At least most of the time.  

[sagerat]

You want the babes, you want a Ural.  It will draw them faster than a 75% off shoe sale.

And with that, he runs for the door like a scalded cat  

[NoGear]

People here (America) always wonder why motorcycle sales in Europe tend to be better than in the US. Well, having lived in Germany for over 10 years and still having a son living there let me see if some light can be shed on the subject.

First is the fact that you can get a moped license at the age of 14 and a graduated motorcycle license at 16. You  can't get a license to drive a car till you are 18.  Next comes the cost of those licenses.  To obtain the moped and motorcycle license you are going to spend close to $1,000. You must take mandatory classes and training. None of this "well I learned from my dad".  To get your automobile license you are going to spend close to $3,000!  Many people can't afford that kind of money at that age so they tend not to get their automobile license till around 24-28 years old. After they've finished school and are working a full time job. Many never do get it.   Owning a motorcycle or moped is more economical.

Secondly, the cost of car ownership. Did you know that it is cheaper for a German to fly to the states, buy a BMW here, ship it back to Germany, and convert it back to German specs?  The cost savings is even enough to cover the cost of their vacation.  I helped several people do it over the years.  You aren't even allowed to change your own oil in Germany unless you first buy reclamation equipment (cost me $9,000 in 1993), then apply for the permit (cost another $800 in 1993)  and the permit may still not be granted. The cost of maintaining a vehicle over there is so much greater than in the U.S. which keeps many people from owning a car.

(I know someone will ask why I spent that money since it cost so much. First I was building a house at the time so I put in a pit under the garage so I could do it myself. The cost for an oil change at the local shop back then was about $150 a pop so I figured in the long run I'd save money. Also I was buying oil thru the PX which was a quarter of the cost on the local economy and I was changing other peoples oil also and only charging them $75.  My cost was about $8-12.)

Also, lets not forget about the cost of fuel in Europe. While we complain about the price of gas in the U.S. in Europe they can be paying as much as four times as much as we are. When I left Germany in 1997 I was paying over $4 for a gallon of gasoline. In Houston at the time gas was $1.12.

Lastly, with stores within walking distance in every town and a great public transportation system many people don't feel the need for a car.  I had several friends that only had bikes. They'd have a streetbike for the summer and a dualsport that they put spiked tires on in the winter.

[Kootenanny]

...You aren't even allowed to change your own oil in Germany unless you first buy reclamation equipment...

This explains much about BMW cars...

Actually, that's a very informative post, and it does explain a lot about the differences between the NA and Euro markets.

[atadaskew]

Actually, that's a very informative post, and it does explain a lot about the differences between the NA and Euro markets.

Indeed.

I've never seen a car on stands on the front lawn in Europe either.
Nor have I ever seen cars driving around w/o license plates and/or expired registrations.  In LA it seems 1/3 of the cars have expired tags.

[cbsnbiker]

Nogear, what an interesting post. Thank you for sharing with us your insights.

I once had a student, an American of Japanese descent, who was serving in our military, stationed in or near Japan. He flew home to the States from Japan to take the MSF course and get his license here, then flew back to Japan. It was cheaper for him to do so than to be trained and licensed in Japan.  

[Kootenanny]

I once had a student, an American of Japanese descent, who was serving in our military, stationed in or near Japan. He flew home to the States from Japan to take the MSF course and get his license here, then flew back to Japan. It was cheaper for him to do so than to be trained and licensed in Japan.  

I was talking to a student at my wife's art college a few years ago; he was Japanese, just here to attend school.  He was very interested in my Buell (and knew more about it than most North Americans I've discussed it with); of course, he was a motorcyclist, and described for me the licensing program in Japan.  It is very strict, and heavily regulated in terms of displacement and experience required to step up each tier.  I can imagine it would be much easier to get a license here in North America than in Japan (or Europe, or many other places...).

[atadaskew]

 I can imagine it would be much easier to get a license here in North America than in Japan (or Europe, or many other places...).

All I had to do in California was ride around some dots, make a u -turn , and pass a multiple choice test.  Which if I failed I could immediately re-take.

[steelerider]

Well,
Lets see. Sales of sport-bikes are in the toilet - the bread and butter of Japanese mfg's. My local Suzuki dealer told me that in the "good ol days" he was selling 4-5 600cc bikes a week. Now he sells 4-5 a month. Back in the day, if you had a heartbeat you could get a loan for a bike. Younger dudes were lining up to buy them. Not so much anymore. Think about how many sport bikes you see around anymore? It go so bad for Suzuki that in 2010, they imported nothing into the US.
Plus - I hate to say this but their bikes are just boring. Does a Gixxer stir your soul - like a Monster, or Street Triple?
Sure, they're well engineered, efficient machines, but just...... blah. As for BMW, and Ducati - both premium brands mostly available to those who have money, and the wealthy always spend. $21k for a new Multistrada is no joke.  Triumph has managed to capture the soul of yesteryear with the Bonneville brand, and the ST3 bikes are fun, comfy, and easy to ride.
Charlie and Ewan have managed to sell more adventure bikes than BMW could have ever imagined - concurrently BMW and Triumph, and now Ducati were smart and have capitalzed on that opportunity. What adventure bikes do the Big 4 from Japan have? Ok - The V-strom (great bike, like a laptop) and the Super Tenere, which looks like it got punched in the face. Honda - they're not even on the map yet.

[Papa Lazarou]

Look, we make and sell better bikes than anyone else.


FIN.

[crispiegee1]

It's very obvious why the Japanese are not improving sales like the Europeans: They have no triples!  

[steelerider]

Look, we make and sell better bikes than anyone else.


FIN.

True story.

[atadaskew]

Well,
Lets see. Sales of sport-bikes are in the toilet - the bread and butter of Japanese mfg's

Japanese sport bike sales are in the toilet.
Not European sport bike sales.

[black hills]

Look, we make and sell better bikes than anyone else.


FIN.

the technology is amazing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKEuzxC4eGc