Automatic Tranny's

[Silverbird]

Honda's new 700 confirms they believe DCT's or auto shifters are the future.  I bet they are planning to use them on anything that could benefit from it.  I wouldn't hesitate to buy an automatic and I don't understand why anyone would want to tour without one but that's just me.  Don't you guys get tired of shifting while droning through a giant city during rush hour at the end of a 500 mile day?

The FJR AE fazeout and the limited success of the VFR1200 are proof it's not that big of a deal.  Funny Honda invested their entire company in their DCT because I guess they didn't get the memo

[atadaskew]

I like manually changing gears, whether on scooters, motos or cars/trucks.

I live in LA and it can take me up to 45 minutes in a car to get to work.  Which is 8 miles away.
And yet my new Jeep has a manual transmission.

Maybe I'm just dreaming of the open road..

Anyway, auto boxes have little interest to me, but the majority of car owners disagree (in the US at least) and maybe DCTs are needed for the long term viability of the moto industry.

[Blunder]

They're trying to entice scooter riders to move up to full-sized motorcycles.

[gritsngravy]

Shockingly they do offer manual transmissions for those that like to shift for themselves.   Choice and variety is actually a good thing in life.  Hondas been making automatic bikes for years and the company seems to keep on keeping on.  

[Kraz]

I wonder if CVT's would be better than automatics and DCT's...

[Rabidsnipe]

  maybe DCTs are needed for the long term viability of the moto industry.

This. I think it is an attempt to appeal to a broader market. The vast majority of cars in the US have automatics. I imagine there is a segment of te population that would like to try motorcycling but don't know how to shift and aren't interested in a scooter.

[garry]

I have a DCT-type transmission in my VW GLI and can't say I'm a fan. It doesn't do what I want when driving in a sporty fashion on a twisty road, so I put it in manual and paddle shift myself. But I miss being able to control the exact timing of the shift, even when in manual mode. On a bike, the exact timing of letting out the clutch on downshifts is pretty important for front end feel on corner entries, or timing a shift when flopping the bike back and forth through a chicane type section.

I guess having the option to be in automatic for commuting in stop and go traffic and manual for sporty isn't a bad thing. The thing I noticed is that when in automatic mode, it tends to pick way too high a gear to be able to accelerate briskly into an opening when changing lanes, so I end up using "sport" mode or manual mode when slicing and dicing moving traffic. Automatic wins hands down for stop and go. Gas mileage takes a huge beating when I'm in manual mode.

I can see the DCT type transmission being desirable for riders that aren't as interested in sporty riding and vehicle dynamics as I am.

[tomek]

 I put it in manual and paddle shift myself. But I miss being able to control the exact timing of the shift, even when in manual mode.

Honest question , I`ve never driven DCT ,  is there  delay between command ( paddle ) and actual shift ?  

[scottzilla]

Despite a handful of ignorant old timers, auto tranny's are embraced  in modern sports cars.  I guess people got tired of paying a ton of money for a car they have to manually shift
Automatics have caught on in 4x4 applications and even tractor trailers.  At this point, 1/4 times are faster with an automatic than stick shift.  If you buy a manual trans today you are doing so because you want something to do, or out of boredom.  They offer no advantages other than being able to shift when you want to, which makes no sense at all.   You can buy a car with paddle shift if you really want the illusion of "control".
Motorcycles are 30 years behind in this regard.  There is no reason automatics should not spread to bikes but the same hurdles that affected cars must be negotiated first.  

[garry]

Honest question , I`ve never driven DCT ,  is there  delay between command ( paddle ) and actual shift ?  

Sometimes the shift can be quite sluggish IMO. Other times it's pretty much instant. I'm sure each transmission behaves a bit differently.  I think the sluggish shifts are when it has the wrong next gear chosen, like assuming I want to upshift to 5th next, but instead I actually downshift to 3rd for the upcoming 90 degree uphill corner. It is nice to have the computer perfectly match revs on downshifts though.

[tomek]

Automatics have caught on in 4x4 applications and even tractor trailers.
  

No offense scottzilla ,  but those auto-manuals are awful , I`d gladly stick them in Eaton`s ass . The shortage of drivers experienced by  the trucking industry couple of years ago was the only reason for their existence . I guess mastering  non-synchro dual range manual transmission was waaaaay too much for  younger generations .
Gimme old school 10 speed and foggetaboutit .

Sport cars ? Gimmie 5-6 speed with lighten or aluminum flywheel ( less inertia , revs rise/drop quicker ) and foggetaboutit .

I`d pay extra  for manual tranny .

[Silverbird]

And if someone isn't coordinated enough to handle a manual shifting bike, they probably shouldn't be riding a motorcycle to begin with.  It will be interesting to see crash stats on auto tranny's in the future.

[sprk_sprd]

Any word yet on whether manufactures are also building motorcycles which back themselves into parking spots automatically too?  Is that also "the future?"    

[R Doug]

They're trying to entice scooter riders to move up to full-sized motorcycles.

And, my guess, any current non-rider who is intimidated by a manual shift (e.g. my wife).  

[Kootenanny]

Despite a handful of ignorant old timers, auto tranny's are embraced  in modern sports cars.  I guess people got tired of paying a ton of money for a car they have to manually shift
Automatics have caught on in 4x4 applications and even tractor trailers.  At this point, 1/4 times are faster with an automatic than stick shift.  If you buy a manual trans today you are doing so because you want something to do, or out of boredom.  They offer no advantages other than being able to shift when you want to, which makes no sense at all.   You can buy a car with paddle shift if you really want the illusion of "control".
Motorcycles are 30 years behind in this regard.  There is no reason automatics should not spread to bikes but the same hurdles that affected cars must be negotiated first.  

OK, I guess I'm an "ignorant old timer."  For me, it ain't a "sports car" if it hasn't got a clutch pedal.  Yeah, yeah, I know that autos shift faster, are often stronger, and can return better lap times...but I'm not racing, I'm driving for the fun of it, and a big part of the fun is shifting gears--it's an extra level of control.  Can you double-clutch a downshift with an automatic, while you're on the brakes coming into the corner, then let out the clutch while powering out?  Not really...it's not so much the gear shifting but the way you can modulate the power with the clutch when you need to.

I`d pay extra  for manual tranny .

Ha, around here, they charge extra for manuals!  When I was recently shopping to replace my SUV which was destroyed in a head-on, one of my requirements was a manual transmission...which, of course, limited my selection drastically.  At the Honda place, I drove a 2006 CRV with a manual--and the salesman admitted that they do charge a premium for manual transmissions, as a lot of locals want them (small-town rural in the mountains...).  

It's real. The manual-trans-only snobs need to realize adding more choices won't diminish their fun. It will only bring more people onto two wheels.

Well, the problem is, at least in the automotive world, that manufacturers often phase out manuals in favour of automatics, because that seems to be what the majority of people want to buy.  If it truly is simply "adding more choices," well that's well and good--but when it becomes a matter of "automatic only," that bites!

And if someone isn't coordinated enough to handle a manual shifting bike, they probably shouldn't be riding a motorcycle to begin with.

And then, there's this.  I've made this argument before, and I stick by it.  Indeed, I'd suggest that if someone isn't co-ordinated enough to drive a manual transmission car, they possibly shouldn't be driving (not that they would be forced to drive a manual, but they should be capable of learning how--IMO that demonstrates some awareness of what your car is doing, which in itself may indicate better awareness overall...).

All in all, I just prefer shifting for myself--in my 4-wheel as well as my 2-wheel vehicles.  Doesn't really matter to me if someone else wants to drive an auto, but it does bother me when the manufacturers stop giving me the option.

[AutoXer]

Don't care what anyone else chooses, I just prefer to shift for myself, in my car, my truck, and my bike.  It's a skill to be mastered, and these days it's something very few people can do well.  I have no desire whatsoever for any sort of "floppy paddle" automatic (they still make the final decision on the shift, not you, so what's the point - let the damn thing shift for you) or a CVT.  Give me a proper manual, and the manufacturers can just skip trying to pretend the floppy paddles are anything but an automatic that is simply pretending to be a real transmission.  

[scottzilla]

No offense but the coordination comments from the ignorant old timers sound just like the car folks.   You can't "properly" drive a car unless you know how to drive a stick shift.
Silly right?  

[Kootenanny]

No offense but the coordination comments from the ignorant old timers sound just like the car folks.   You can't "properly" drive a car unless you know how to drive a stick shift.
Silly right?  

Well, if you're just sitting in stop'n'go traffic, then auto is just fine...indeed, I'd prefer it for that.

But for "spiritied" driving, a manual transmission just adds another dimension, which many of us prefer.  Sure, there may no longer be any real advantage--except that the overall experience is more "fulfilling," if you will.

I mean, really, otherwise you might as well just be driving a golf cart, no matter how powerful...

[scottzilla]

Well, if you're just sitting in stop'n'go traffic, then auto is just fine...indeed, I'd prefer it for that.

But for "spiritied" driving, a manual transmission just adds another dimension, which many of us prefer.  Sure, there may no longer be any real advantage--except that the overall experience is more "fulfilling," if you will.

I mean, really, otherwise you might as well just be driving a golf cart, no matter how powerful...

You already admitted the manual offers no performance over the automatic.  Your reasons for wanting one are "just because".  
We are in agreement.  

[Kootenanny]

You already admitted the manual offers no performance over the automatic.  Your reasons for wanting one are "just because".  
We are in agreement.  

More that I prefer it, than "just because."  

[scottzilla]

More that I prefer it, than "just because."  

You prefer it just because.  

[phatphil]

Some differences between bikes and cars:  clutch modulation more important on bikes.  Easier to gear down a few gears at once, rather than rowing.  More tiring riding bike.  Riding bike is more done for enjoyment, the effort and skill reward (same as car but to lessor extent).  

Most people who drive standard cars don't do it well.  Because they don't care to.  Having choice is cool but at the cost of better manuals?  Most BMW manual cars are a joy to shift.  Had an old '91 318is that had a wicked feeling shift.  The faster and quicker ya shifted, the better it felt.  It seemed to pull itself into the next gear and with such very little effort.  Just a short flick of the wrist and it would just snick into the next ratio, up or down (with a double clutch).  Most BMW also have brake and clutch placed for super easy heal and toe.

If they can make dct feel and sound really cool then it might catch on a little more.  Would be nice to jump on the VFR1200 and head out for a 8hr/day, week long tour, after a long winter of sitting around on my ass drinking too much booze.  But I need a few days at start of season because if I tried to do that my skinny arms are too likely to give out.          

[hugerider]

They offer no advantages other than being able to shift when you want to, which makes no sense at all.   

Oh dear, no. Drivers using a manual transmission pay more attention and tend to be safer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17085632

I would think that all bikers would want drivers to have to pay attention to what they're doing in a car.

[Kootenanny]

Oh dear, no. Drivers using a manual transmission pay more attention and tend to be safer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17085632

I would think that all bikers would want drivers to have to pay attention to what they're doing in a car.

Ha!  I'm not just imagining it...



Thanks, hr.

[mugwump58]

Remember the Germans didn't understand why they had to have cup holders in their cars to be successful in this market.

Oops, Paladin is on the radio, gotta go

[JonS]

An automatic on  a bike is just about the last thing I would want. It's the answer to a question almost nobody would ask.

[Prozac]

I personally prefer a manual for a reason that nobody has stated, better fuel economy.  Take a look at at of the fuel economy forums and the first thing they tend to look for in a vehicle is that manual transmission.  Performance aside, I know that I pull better numbers out of a vehicle with a manual than I can with an auto.  

On that note, if it gets more people to try the sport, maybe it will lead to more advances and bring those bikes over here that everyone seems to pine for.

[sagerat]

I like manual trannies in my bikes and my rigs.  And, yes, that was me who ground a pound of hamburger this morning in my Wrangler courtesy of a wretched downshift.  

I didn't say I was perfect at it; I've only been driving manuals for 36 years.  

[02Tac]

Any word yet on whether manufactures are also building motorcycles which back themselves into parking spots automatically too?  Is that also "the future?"    

 
Not totally automatic, but Goldwings and Spyders have reverse!  

[atadaskew]

 
Not totally automatic, but Goldwings and Spyders have reverse!  

The reverse on a Wing is fantastic.  No other way to back up a 900lb bike up a very slight incline let alone decent incline.

[Bowtie76]

Most BMW also have brake and clutch placed for super easy heal and toe.

I'm sure you ment gas and brake, I would like to see someone heal-toe the clutch.

[CosmicCowboy]

Indeed, I'd suggest that if someone isn't co-ordinated enough to drive a manual transmission car, they possibly shouldn't be driving

I think we should go back to the days of controlling our own spark advance.

[black hills]

auto's have thier place, for a bike I prefer a recluse (or similar) over an auto. I'm one of the old school types that prefer a manual, but have to admit an advantage in off road capabilities in our big trucks with auto's. they just work better  as for bikes I will stick with a manual for now.

[CLAY]

I think we should go back to the days of controlling our own spark advance.

   Nicely played sir.

 I'm with Frenchie on this.  If it brings more people to the two-wheeled segment, great.  More visibility is good for us as a whole.  

[Rogue]

I’ve said this before.  

I really don’t want the rolling masses to ride motorcycles.  I want people to go through a few hurdles before they’re allowed to go ride a motorcycle.  This way, only the dedicated ones make it.  Even then, just look at the quality of riders out there.  Can you imagine if many more people rode motorcycles?  So, I think they shouldn’t put automatics in bikes if the goal is to get more of them on two wheels.  Riding and shifting makes you think of the ride and pay more attention.  That is always a good thing!

Having said that, I can see the attraction of DCT for riders.  I commute daily on a motorcycle in the city so I shift….a lot.  It has never really bothered me since I don’t know any better.  When I do have a lapse of concentration and miss a shift, I am reminded of it very clearly so I try not to let my mind wander too far from the task at hand.  This is a good thing for me and everyone around me.

[Kootenanny]

I think we should go back to the days of controlling our own spark advance.

Yeah, yeah.  Heard that before.

There is a difference IMO.  I like automated engine controls, EFI, etc; my car has ABS, traction control, and an electronic stability program, and I'm happy to have 'em.  But shifting gears is a different matter.

Until I'm driving a fully electric car (which will have have direct drive with no "transmission" at all in the current sense), leave me my stickshift.

[Kootenanny]

I really don’t want the rolling masses to ride motorcycles.  I want people to go through a few hurdles before they’re allowed to go ride a motorcycle.  This way, only the dedicated ones make it.  Even then, just look at the quality of riders out there.  Can you imagine if many more people rode motorcycles?  So, I think they shouldn’t put automatics in bikes if the goal is to get more of them on two wheels.  Riding and shifting makes you think of the ride and pay more attention.  That is always a good thing!

You may have a point:

[atadaskew]

I’ve said this before.  

I really don’t want the rolling masses to ride motorcycles.  I want people to go through a few hurdles before they’re allowed to go ride a motorcycle.  This way, only the dedicated ones make it.  Even then, just look at the quality of riders out there.  Can you imagine if many more people rode motorcycles?  So, I think they shouldn’t put automatics in bikes if the goal is to get more of them on two wheels.  Riding and shifting makes you think of the ride and pay more attention.  That is always a good thing!

Yup, I would not want the average scooter rider on an auto bike.  They are bad enough as it is on scooters.

[Rogue]

Man those Asian drivers and riders!  

I spent some time in SE Asian country with tons of little scoots and 150cc motorbikes where every Tom, Dick, and Marry can hop on and ride.  I've seen them.  Screw that shit!  It makes American riders and drivers look like a well organized orchestra!  God bless California drivers and riders.    

[JimWilliamson]

4:06  

[Bounce]

I thought the topic was going to be about County's sex change operation.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah, yeah.  Heard that before.

Still, you gotta admit it was funny.

[sagerat]

I lost time the number of times I yelped "holy crap!"

Remind me to never ride a scooter in Asia particularly in the rain.  Of course the monsoon season probably really cuts into your riding season.  

[rdg20]

I'm 62 and I've never owned an automatic transmission of any kind. I don't want to just stab & steer - I want to drive. I like a good manual transmission - it makes driving fun.

[Rattlehead]

I'm 62 and I've never owned an automatic transmission of any kind. I don't want to just stab & steer - I want to drive. I like a good manual transmission - it makes driving fun.

agreed 100%

-My manual trannies have ALWAYS given me better mpg, regardless of what the EPA says
-My manual trannies have ALWAYS been more durable, required less maintenance, given me less problems, and consequently cost me less money.
-My manual trannies have ALWAYS been more fun and enjoyable for me to drive.  

Automatics are setup and programmed by engineers whose little books and formulas tell them they need to shift at such and such rpm and load and downshift at such and such throttle position or whatever. Problem is, in real life their only right about 70-80% of the time, and that’s a good one. My manual tranny is right 95% of the time (I make mistakes too you know  ).

An auto is programmed to a compromise between shift smoothness, "acceptable" engine loads, driver comfort and a number of other factors. Problem with this is, there are millions of “other factors”, some of which simply cannot be programmed for and many of which will conflict with each other. The world is not as “black and white” as an engineering formula.  

An auto has no ability to anticipate things: be they steep hills or declines, corners, traffic or whatever. A human being (that’s paying attention to what’s going on) can anticipate things WAY in advance. A manual can be proactive where as an auto will always be reactive.

Some of the best tricks for gas mileage simply don’t work with an auto or are far less effective. I’m not talking shutting the engine off while moving or any other “extreme” hyper-miling tricks, just simple driving techniques that make a big difference. They still help mpg’s with an auto but to FAR less of a degree.

Also, I HATE the feel of a torque converter. I HATE that sloppy, mushy, unresponsive disconnected feeling of a fluid coupling.   I’ve driven a DCT and it was worlds better but it still suffered with the same shift timing issues I hate in a regular auto. A DCT with an unobtrusive manual mode (it does what I tell it to the split second I tell it to do it) would be acceptable but I would miss the feel of a clutch.

“Choice” and “Variety” are fine things but I cringe at the thought of motorcycles becoming like cars/trucks where only a few models have manual trannies even available and you have to look LONG and HARD to find one. People just don’t want to “drive” anymore; they simply want to be transported from A to B. It will be a SAD day if riding becomes the same way.  

I could rant on this subject for volumes so I think I’ll just leave it at that. And no, I’m not an “old timer” reminiscing about the “good old days”   I’m a 32yr old “enthusiast” who happens to enjoy the man/machine interface experiance that comes from not having a bike/vehicle make decisions for you.

[Rogue]

Having said all that, which I do agree with most of the things you have said, there are exceptions.

Today's modern automatics, when equipped with the appropriate number of gears, programmed properly, fitted with the right sensors glued to the engine's ECM, are capable of shifting as good or better than a human being.  In fact, in the automotive world, many of the new generation of 6-speed or more, automatic transmissions fitted to high performance cars can actually go faster AND get better fuel efficiency.  

That kind of applications however costs money and so they have not trickled down to the lower end models.  Tests on the VFR1200's DCT admit that it works really well 99% of the time even under demanding (ie high performance) situations.  

I have also read tests of the Aprilia Mana GT (CVT Transmission) and testers admit to liking the shiftless experience.  Of course that bike also has a "manual mode" wherein it acts like it has 7 speeds and gives you push button up/down shifting, with the appropriate engine mapping for higher performance/quicker engine response at the expense of fuel efficiency.

So having both options open is actually a good thing, if that is the goal.

[black hills]

My bottom line position is this: just flat out saying "no, this is no good" to anything just creates a false and ignorant[1] narrow view of things. This is true of everything.

There is application for this. Millions upon millions of cash-paying buyers have spoken (in terms of cars).

As long as the choice exists, I see absolutely NO negative point for auto-trans or cvt-style bikes. Bring 'em on.






[1] that's not an insult; it simply means ill-informed.

   when first fitting autos in our bucket and digger trucks I was against it. after driving them in all conditions I have to admit the autos work better 90% of the tiime. specially with high torque diesels in low traction conditions.

[Kootenanny]

agreed 100%

-My manual trannies have ALWAYS given me better mpg, regardless of what the EPA says
-My manual trannies have ALWAYS been more durable, required less maintenance, given me less problems, and consequently cost me less money.
-My manual trannies have ALWAYS been more fun and enjoyable for me to drive.  

Automatics are setup and programmed by engineers whose little books and formulas tell them they need to shift at such and such rpm and load and downshift at such and such throttle position or whatever. Problem is, in real life their only right about 70-80% of the time, and that’s a good one. My manual tranny is right 95% of the time (I make mistakes too you know  ).

An auto is programmed to a compromise between shift smoothness, "acceptable" engine loads, driver comfort and a number of other factors. Problem with this is, there are millions of “other factors”, some of which simply cannot be programmed for and many of which will conflict with each other. The world is not as “black and white” as an engineering formula.  

An auto has no ability to anticipate things: be they steep hills or declines, corners, traffic or whatever. A human being (that’s paying attention to what’s going on) can anticipate things WAY in advance. A manual can be proactive where as an auto will always be reactive.

Some of the best tricks for gas mileage simply don’t work with an auto or are far less effective. I’m not talking shutting the engine off while moving or any other “extreme” hyper-miling tricks, just simple driving techniques that make a big difference. They still help mpg’s with an auto but to FAR less of a degree.

Also, I HATE the feel of a torque converter. I HATE that sloppy, mushy, unresponsive disconnected feeling of a fluid coupling.   I’ve driven a DCT and it was worlds better but it still suffered with the same shift timing issues I hate in a regular auto. A DCT with an unobtrusive manual mode (it does what I tell it to the split second I tell it to do it) would be acceptable but I would miss the feel of a clutch.

“Choice” and “Variety” are fine things but I cringe at the thought of motorcycles becoming like cars/trucks where only a few models have manual trannies even available and you have to look LONG and HARD to find one. People just don’t want to “drive” anymore; they simply want to be transported from A to B. It will be a SAD day if riding becomes the same way.  

I could rant on this subject for volumes so I think I’ll just leave it at that. And no, I’m not an “old timer” reminiscing about the “good old days”   I’m a 32yr old “enthusiast” who happens to enjoy the man/machine interface experiance that comes from not having a bike/vehicle make decisions for you.

Pretty well articulated post, that.  Glad I'm not alone.

As I said, I understand the advantages of automatics, from an engineering perspective.  But, I prefer to drive a manual.  As rdg20 says, it's part of what makes driving fun--and that goes for bikes, too.  Somehow, I don't know if railing through the twisties would be quite the same experience on an automatic bike...

[Rogue]

It all comes down to skill.

If you are skilled operator of manual transmissions, know what you are doing and why, a manual is better in most respects.  If you just want to get from A to B, a twist and go is better.  

When I used to drive a manual trans car, I enjoyed it.  I shifted at approriate times, downshifted as I slowed down, picked the right gear for the correct power out of corners, did all the things I thought you were supposed to do to drive a manual properly.  Then I watched my wife drive the same manual trans car.  She's a wonderful woman and all, but she drove that car only to get from A to B.  She had no clue why she shifted.  She only knew she had to and memorized the sequence and timing of her actions.  As a result, she really didn't benefit much from the manual and she was better off with an automatic.

[Kootenanny]

It all comes down to skill.

If you are skilled operator of manual transmissions, know what you are doing and why, a manual is better in most respects.  If you just want to get from A to B, a twist and go is better.  

When I used to drive a manual trans car, I enjoyed it.  I shifted at approriate times, downshifted as I slowed down, picked the right gear for the correct power out of corners, did all the things I thought you were supposed to do to drive a manual properly.  Then I watched my wife drive the same manual trans car.  She's a wonderful woman and all, but she drove that car only to get from A to B.  She had no clue why she shifted.  She only knew she had to and memorized the sequence and timing of her actions.  As a result, she really didn't benefit much from the manual and she was better off with an automatic.

I hear you on this...it's interesting, how some people are more attuned to how machinery works than others.  Still, my wife (like myself) prefers to drive a manual car, and while we  have different "styles" of driving, we both understand both how and why we need to shift--although she is most certainly NOT "mechanically oriented."  She did try to teach her best friend to drive a standard, though...that was harsh, this woman simply doesn't seem to get the concept, although she's bright and actually quite aggressive behind the wheel (this woman never rode a bicycle as a child, either, and having seen her try it as an adult, I certainly wouldn't want to try teaching her to ride a motorcycle...).

[black hills]

my wifes dodge diesel pickup (w/26' gooseneck horse trialer) is a manual and she loves it. While she has no idea how anything under the hood works she drives it very well.

[Rattlehead]

Today's modern automatics, when equipped with the appropriate number of gears, programmed properly, fitted with the right sensors glued to the engine's ECM, are capable of shifting as good or better than a human being.  In fact, in the automotive world, many of the new generation of 6-speed or more, automatic transmissions fitted to high performance cars can actually go faster AND get better fuel efficiency.  

I assume you mean "quicker" ("faster" is more limited by hp, aero, and overall gearing) and to that I say, it depends. A properly set up and geared manual with a tranny/shifter that's capable of being powershifted mercilessly can be shifted just as quickly as any auto. Unfortunately, these are rare. The auto certainly holds the advantage of being able to perform the lightning quick shifts more consistantly and with less drivetrain stress; I won't argue that for a second.
Thing is though, a properly programmed robot with the right sensors and glued to a powerful computer would probably be faster around a track than all but the best 1% of drivers in the world but where's the fun in that. I'm FAR more impressed by what a driver/rider is capable of doing instead of what their machine is capable of doing for them.

As far as mileage, I will GLADLY take up the mpg challenge. There is a LOT more to driving a stick than "let out clutch, wait for shift light, shift, repeat". Unless the manual was poorly setup (short gearing vs. taller gearing in the auto version, 4sp manual vs 8sp auto or some other such nonsense) I will lay down any amount of money that I will return a higher mpg number with a manual vs the same vehicle with an auto. Remember EPA numbers only tell a tiny little bit of the story and for something that can me manipulated as easily as a manual tranny, it's quite easy to surpass the EPA numbers by a large margin. Autos are much harder to do this with because they are programmed a certain way and don't cooperate as well to mileage centered driving styles.

to frenchman:
In case that was directed towards me, no offense taken. There is a big difference between ignorance and stupidity. I'd rather be called ignorant than stupid any day.  
Thing is though, I've driven/owned a number of auto cars and trucks, heck I even own one right now (the other 3 vehicles are manuals though). I've never found one that I truely enjoyed driving. I normally end up aggrivated at how the transmissions decide things should be done. Maybe I'm just a control freak.
Anyway, I have formed my opinion (take it for what it's worth) and I feel firmly about it. Whether that makes me closed minded or just stubborn, who knows.

[black hills]

almost all auto's now have a manual option, I use it frequently on my dodge half ton and have found it eliminates most of the complaints I had about autos in the past.

[Kootenanny]

Thing is though, I've driven/owned a number of auto cars and trucks, heck I even own one right now (the other 3 vehicles are manuals though). I've never found one that I truely enjoyed driving. I normally end up aggrivated at how the transmissions decide things should be done. Maybe I'm just a control freak.
Anyway, I have formed my opinion (take it for what it's worth) and I feel firmly about it. Whether that makes me closed minded or just stubborn, who knows.

Hear, hear!




Demo'd a small car with a CVT a few years ago, while searching for a car for my wife.  We both hated it--felt like the engine was connected to the wheels by a rubber band!  (Note, the dealer said they had the same care coming in with a manual, and they'd call us when it got in...but we never got the call, and ended up purchasing a manual-shift car from another dealer...)

I can't understand how anyone who enjoys "spirited" driving could prefer an automatic.  Yeah, I've heard all about DCTs, paddle shifting, etc...and I realize there may be performance advantages...but it just seems so much more sterile.  I want a clutch, too, dammit!

[tomek]

That kind of applications however costs money and so they have not trickled down to the lower end models.  Tests on the VFR1200's DCT admit that it works really well 99% of the time even under demanding (ie high performance) situations.  

I dunno , DCT Viffer is 1.4 seconds slower in 1/4 mile ( 10.23 vs 11.67 ) and also in 60-80 and 80- 100 mph by 0.5 and 0.7 seconds .
That is pretty substantial performance difference , they almost put puts DCT bike in H.D or Buell category.
BTW all times are from Sport Rider tests .

Since bikes don`t have a synchros and not much of engine inertia  gear changes can be blindingly fast when executed  properly , there is nothing to be gained there by going DCT . That is not the case with cars with their bulky , heavy shafts , and flywheels .

Side note - let` not put DCT auto manuals with  automatics with torque converter and planetary gears in the same bag . They are entirely different kind of animals .

[atadaskew]

There is application for this. Millions upon millions of cash-paying buyers have spoken (in terms of cars).

Autos are no where near as popular in Europe.
In England, if you take the driving test in an auto car, you are only allowed to drive an auto.

[Rogue]

Koot and others, you have to experience an automatic/CVT that has been properly tuned and programmed.  When done right, they are great!  When tuned for fuel efficiency, they kind of suck.  It's great to have the option of choosing between automatic, and manual control (with a responsive transmission), if/when you want it.

With such a device, you will most likely choose automatic 90% of the time.  You really only need the manual control when driving aggressively/track/twisty roads--such conditions when you want to control the speed and power more accurately and anticipate road conditions.  A computer can't anticipate since they can't see the road like you can.  Not yet anyway!  

On a side note, they now have active/intelligent cruise control with a computer that CAN see the road (via front mounted camera).  Yup!  Only available in high end autos.

[Rogue]

I dunno , DCT Viffer is 1.4 seconds slower in 1/4 mile ( 10.23 vs 11.67 ) and also in 60-80 and 80- 100 mph by 0.5 and 0.7 seconds .
That is pretty substantial performance difference , they almost put puts DCT bike in H.D or Buell category.
BTW all times are from Sport Rider tests .

Yes that is true for the VFR.  But not true for high performance cars.

[tomek]

Yes that is true for the VFR.  But not true for high performance cars.

I`ve elaborated on that in the other part on my post that you have chosen not to copy so you could  score .  

[Kootenanny]

Koot and others, you have to experience an automatic/CVT that has been properly tuned and programmed.  When done right, they are great!  When tuned for fuel efficiency, they kind of suck.  It's great to have the option of choosing between automatic, and manual control (with a responsive transmission), if/when you want it.

With such a device, you will most likely choose automatic 90% of the time.  You really only need the manual control when driving aggressively/track/twisty roads--such conditions when you want to control the speed and power more accurately and anticipate road conditions.  A computer can't anticipate since they can't see the road like you can.  Not yet anyway!  

I admit, I've never driven a DCT car (or if I did, I don't recall).  But the CVT cars I've experienced have all been the same--rubber band territory!  Might be fine for crawling through traffic, but out where I live--in the mountains, where the roads are up and down and twisty--uh, no thanks.  And relating to that...as I drive those kinds of roads 90% of the time, I'd expect I'd be choosing manual mode close to 90% of the time, if I had the choice.  I realize that the vast majority of people do not live where I do (thankfully!), and their driving needs may be different.  And I don't care, except as it affects me by reducing my choices when I go to purchase a vehicle, most of which are nowadays designed to function in the urban environments where the majority of car buyers live.

Around here, car lots advertise when vehicles ARE manual transmission, and they tend to charge a premium; I am not alone.

[bomber]

Still not seeing why everyone is so worked up over this...

Perhaps for the same reason so many view CanAm Spyders as assaults on their motorcycling rights and personhood . . . ..

To quote my daughter, "Change is good. You go first."

[Kootenanny]

Everyone boasting about their skill... that's all great and awesome. I'm sure everyone is Andretti reborn. Great. Fantastic.  Meanwhile, the people who just want to get from point-a to point-b, go to work, deliver pizzas, run granny to chemo and who have to sit in urban traffic... autos have a place, and clearly have a market. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing anyone to buy an auto-shift bike.

I'm still not seeing why everyone is so worked up over auto-shift, cvt and other "auto" style bikes hitting the market. They're additions to the market, not replacements; if they were the new way of things, Scooters would have outsold all other bikes combined a hundred fold already. Most riders want manual. Now there are more options for those who don't.

Still not seeing why everyone is so worked up over this...

The bolded part of your quote is where my issue lies.  At this point, sure...automatic bikes are just coming on the scene, and are as yet rare.  But, my personal experience in the automotive market makes me wonder how long it'll be before there WILL be someone "holding a gun to my head" to buy an automatic.  Have you tried to purchase a new, manual-shift car lately?  It's getting progressively more difficult...the automakers do NOT offer the choice, and they DO consider the automatics as replacements, not additions to the market.  It drives me nuts enough with cars, and I really hope it doesn't go that way with bikes (of course, we may be going all-electric before it gets to that point, anyway...now, I would not be averse to riding an electric bike, although I expect the experience would be quite different).

[pcrdude]

My last bike purchase was available as either computer controlled clutch, or standard.  I chose standard.

My last car purchase was manual transmission as standard, and automatic at an additional charge.  I chose manual.

I like driving a manual transmission car better than an automatic, but if all my driving was only commuting in stop and go I would prefer an auto.

For my bike, manual unless I am physically unable, then any automation necessary to allow me to continue riding.

I don't care which is faster shifting, better mileage, etc.  I like the feeling of control and engagement of manually shifting.

BTW, many auto cars have a taller top gear than their manual versions, hence better highway MPG.

[bomber]

Hmmmmmm . . .. .. it took the better part of 50 years for automatic gearboxes to dominate the North American auto market, Koot . . . . (and my understanding is that Euro and Asian markets still have more standard shift choices)

Given that bike are, primarily, toys, I don't think this is an issue with which we'll have to deal . . . . . .

[black hills]

manufacturers will build bikes with the auto option. if they sell they will build more, if they don't they won't. it will take care of itself....

[Kootenanny]

Hmmmmmm . . .. .. it took the better part of 50 years for automatic gearboxes to dominate the North American auto market, Koot . . . . (and my understanding is that Euro and Asian markets still have more standard shift choices)

Given that bike are, primarily, toys, I don't think this is an issue with which we'll have to deal . . . . . .

I hope you guys are correct.  

(BTW, the 50-year time comparison isn't really valid, as technology moves much more quickly these days...just look at how fast an iPhone becomes obsolete, compared to a '56 Chevy...)


And while it is possibly slightly off-topic, my concerns are more directly associated with automobiles than bikes.  I prefer a manual transmission either way.  And I can see the day when I will no longer have the choice, period, when I go to buy a car...or at least, any car that will suit my purposes.

[cbsnbiker]

Despite a handful of ignorant old timers, auto tranny's are embraced  in modern sports cars.  I guess people got tired of paying a ton of money for a car they have to manually shift
Automatics have caught on in 4x4 applications and even tractor trailers.  At this point, 1/4 times are faster with an automatic than stick shift.  If you buy a manual trans today you are doing so because you want something to do, or out of boredom.  They offer no advantages other than being able to shift when you want to, which makes no sense at all.   You can buy a car with paddle shift if you really want the illusion of "control".
Motorcycles are 30 years behind in this regard.  There is no reason automatics should not spread to bikes but the same hurdles that affected cars must be negotiated first.  

My car has a manual transmission because:

• it cost $1,000 less;
• it has better acceleration;
• it gets better gas mileage.

That said, I do not view manual shifting, in a car or on a motorcycle, as a goal. It is part of the riding or driving process with current technology.

Come out with better technology, and I'll go for it.

On the car side, I've driven several CVT-equipped ones, including over 1,000 miles in an Audi A6, and less in a Ford. The Ford's transmission works well. The Audi's was fine from about 2 MPH up, but I hated parallel-parking with it, especially on a slope.

I haven't driven a DSG-equipped car (or motorcycle) yet.

I did ride a '78 Hondamatic. It worked, but I wouldn't want to own one vs. its manual-shift equivalent.

I'm interested in trying modern automatic transmission motorcycles.

[atadaskew]

After a few minutes I do not much enjoy the CVT transmissions in my scooters.
I much prefer riding the old PX Vespa, which has a manual 4 speed transmission.

I way prefer the feel of an auto box w/ real gears than a CVT box.
But prefer pure manual to either.

[CosmicCowboy]

(BTW, the 50-year time comparison isn't really valid, as technology moves much more quickly these days...just look at how fast an iPhone becomes obsolete, compared to a '56 Chevy...)

Dude, not even the same thing. Look how long it's taking electric and even hybrid cars to take off. We'll be manually shifting for quite some time.

[Silverbird]

Funny how I started this thread becuase I was thinking of buying a new VFR, 90% of that being because of the DCT.  Reading this thread has got me thinking about everything else out there and I'm happy about that.  Maybe I don't need a auto after all

[Rogue]

No you don't NEED an automatic.

But if having the option of automatic or manual shift interests you, then the VFR with DCT is the thing to have.

[cbsnbiker]

I'm interested to see where these automatic transmissions will lead.

There are people who cannot operate clutches -- for example, amputees and the disabled, such as veterans.

These transmissions may make the difference for some people between riding and not riding.  

[Rogue]

OTOH, if you have some type of disability that prevents you from operating a motorcycle, maybe you shouldn't?  Just a thought.  I know everyone is different.  

[cbsnbiker]

OTOH, if you have some type of disability that prevents you from operating a motorcycle, maybe you shouldn't?  Just a thought.  I know everyone is different.  

It depends on the disability.

For example, a friend of mine was a Thalidomide child. He has severely attenuated arms, with partially-formed hands, but the rest of him was fine. He could ride with special pullback bars. His right hand could operate the front brake. His left hand couldn't operate a clutch, so he rode a Hondamatic. He logged many miles on it and had a great time. He died of a heart attack some years back, alas; otherwise, one of these automatic transmission bikes might be good for him.

Another example: years ago, I did a CLASS track course. One of the guys taking the course was missing a hand and forearm. He had a prosthesis in its place. The bike's controls were rerouted and repositioned to accommodate the missing hand. He rode very well.

A third example: the former assistant minister of my parents' church has all his limbs, but has a minor balance problem. He can drive, but two-wheel motorcycles give him trouble. He has a GoldWing with a sidecar. I haven't seen him in some years, but if I do I'll ask him if a Spyder would be good for him.

Etc.

I predict that we will see more and more such people, especially veterans returning from the wars. I think it's great that there will be vehicles that will help them ride.

[Kootenanny]

Met this guy in his 80s last summer...he no longer has the strength in his left hand to operate a clutch, but he's always ridden sporty bikes, so his answer:

[Rogue]

It depends on the disability.

Agree.

[hugerider]

No one has said you are.  

Everyone boasting about their skill... that's all great and awesome. I'm sure everyone is Andretti reborn. Great. Fantastic.  Meanwhile, the people who just want to get from point-a to point-b, go to work, deliver pizzas, run granny to chemo and who have to sit in urban traffic... autos have a place, and clearly have a market. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing anyone to buy an auto-shift bike.

I'm still not seeing why everyone is so worked up over auto-shift, cvt and other "auto" style bikes hitting the market. They're additions to the market, not replacements; if they were the new way of things, Scooters would have outsold all other bikes combined a hundred fold already. Most riders want manual. Now there are more options for those who don't.

Still not seeing why everyone is so worked up over this...

I don't know that anyone in this thread is necessarily against choice, I just think that they're worried that autos will become the standard, to the point where you can't buy a manual transmission motorcycle. For me, part of the enjoyment of riding is in increasing my skill in it. I like doing "boring" drills that make me a better rider. I like learning about my vehicles and learning when to shift, and into which gear, and in which situations. These are the things that appeal to me. I don't care that someone else wants to use an automatic transmission. I'm just concerned that if there's a huge influx of riders because of the auto tranny, manufacturers will discontinue manuals because they see dollar signs. I'm sure they'll never stop making manual supersports, but what about any category of bike that doesn't have to exist for racing rules? It may never happen in my lifetime, but I don't want others to lose out on the opportunity to do something that I find enjoyable.

Frankly, I'd probably not ride if I had to use an auto tranny. Maybe I better start taking a closer look at gixxers.

[hugerider]

It'll never happen. As we're all too painfully well aware, bikes are NOT mainstream transportation in the US, so the mainstream push to "simpler" is automatically (hah!) obviated.

Adding automatic trannies to the lineup is a step made to increase sales, if sales ever get high enough, motorcycles could be considered mainstream transportation. Just because motorcycles aren't mainstream transportation now, it doesn't mean that they never will be. It might be that a lot of potential riders don't become actual riders because it's "too complicated" to manually shift.

Like I said, I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime, but if there's a huge influx of new automatic tranny riders, it could be the first step in that direction.

EDIT: I should mention that I think that electric motorcycles are a bigger threat to manual shifting than just putting auto trannies on bikes.

[Rattlehead]

It'll never happen......

Never say never.
I'm sure 25-30 years ago people said the same thing about trucks. I mean after all, they’re not practical transportation and nobody buys them for that, right? Surely there will always be manual trannies offered in trucks.
Just try to buy a new ½ ton truck with a manual trans anymore; not even an option at any cost on most makes.
Never underestimate the power of the trend following masses to take choices away from those whose opinion is in the minority.

Is there a place for automatics in motorcycles? Sure there is. I’m just very wary of supporting it as I’ve had several of my automotive options taken away because manuals aren’t “popular” enough and are simply not offered, not even as an option. I cringe at the thought of losing motorcycle options in the same manner.

[FJRmgm]

I don't want an automatic shift transmission on my motorcycles but an ELECTRONIC shift of a manual trans, like the FJR-AE is fine with me because I still control when it shifts.

I don't need a clutch lever to feel good about a bike.

[atadaskew]

I don't need a clutch lever to feel good about a bike.

I do when I'm pulling a toight U-turn and want to balance it with the clutch and rear brake.

[black hills]

how ya gonna wheelie a FJR without the clutch????

[Kootenanny]

I don't need a clutch lever to feel good about a bike.

I do

[cbsnbiker]

Never say never.
I'm sure 25-30 years ago people said the same thing about trucks. I mean after all, they’re not practical transportation and nobody buys them for that, right? Surely there will always be manual trannies offered in trucks.
Just try to buy a new ½ ton truck with a manual trans anymore; not even an option at any cost on most makes.
Never underestimate the power of the trend following masses to take choices away from those whose opinion is in the minority.

Is there a place for automatics in motorcycles? Sure there is. I’m just very wary of supporting it as I’ve had several of my automotive options taken away because manuals aren’t “popular” enough and are simply not offered, not even as an option. I cringe at the thought of losing motorcycle options in the same manner.

I've never owned a pickup truck.

JOOC, what's the advantage of having a manual transmission in a pickup vs an automatic?

[bomber]

I've never owned a pickup truck.

JOOC, what's the advantage of having a manual transmission in a pickup vs an automatic?

same as in any vehicle -- cost, ease of maintenance, ability to control the torque to the drive wheels . . . .

[Thunderbox]

Don't care what anyone else chooses, I just prefer to shift for myself, in my car, my truck, and my bike.  It's a skill to be mastered, and these days it's something very few people can do well.  I have no desire whatsoever for any sort of "floppy paddle" automatic (they still make the final decision on the shift, not you, so what's the point - let the damn thing shift for you) or a CVT.  Give me a proper manual, and the manufacturers can just skip trying to pretend the floppy paddles are anything but an automatic that is simply pretending to be a real transmission.  

I think there are litterally millions of people capable of shifting a manual with very good proficiency.  The motorcycle world is full of them and the car world still has many who can shift very well.

It is a matter of what you are used to.  New bike owners will probably migrate to more autos and older bike riders will be reluctant to change where and what they feel comfortable with.  My best guess is, as time passes there will be more and more automatic shifting motorcycles and eventually the dedicated sport bikes will probably be the only ones with a manual transmission.  It will be determined by the market and consumer demand.  When demand goes up for automatics manufacturers will build less manuals and more automatics.  Very simple.  Nothing anyone says on this site or any other will change that.

It has already started with quite a few manufacturers.  It's the future and time will not stand still for any invention.

[Rattlehead]

same as in any vehicle -- cost, ease of maintenance, ability to control the torque to the drive wheels . . . .

agreed.
The cost factor alone is enough for me. Under hard use auto tranny's have a hard time passing 100,000mi (many don't even make it that far) and cost between $1000-2000 to rebuild. I can typically put in a clutch for about $200 and I've never had a problem passing 100k mi on one. Manual transmissions themselves seem to last practically forever.

Also, with a large trailer autos tend to "hunt" between gears at even the slightest incline and just never seem to pick the right gear. I've haven't pulled with a really new one with a "tow" setting so I can't speak as to whether they are any better.
Manuals also have the benefit of compression braking; a BIG plus when you're REALLY pulling something big or are encountering a long downhill stretch. I know some of the new autos have this feature but I question just how well it works. Torque converters are not made to have such high reverse torque applied to them when their locked and having it locked is the only way to get truly effective engine braking.  

Like was said, cost, maintenance, and control.

[black hills]

agreed.
The cost factor alone is enough for me. Under hard use auto tranny's have a hard time passing 100,000mi (many don't even make it that far) and cost between $1000-2000 to rebuild. I can typically put in a clutch for about $200 and I've never had a problem passing 100k mi on one. Manual transmissions themselves seem to last practically forever.

Also, with a large trailer autos tend to "hunt" between gears at even the slightest incline and just never seem to pick the right gear. I've haven't pulled with a really new one with a "tow" setting so I can't speak as to whether they are any better.
Manuals also have the benefit of compression braking; a BIG plus when you're REALLY pulling something big or are encountering a long downhill stretch. I know some of the new autos have this feature but I question just how well it works. Torque converters are not made to have such high reverse torque applied to them when their locked and having it locked is the only way to get truly effective engine braking.  

Like was said, cost, maintenance, and control.

fleet maintenance records to not support your claim. Autos over the long haul are cheaper to maintain than a manual. One of the reasons we have switched all our trucks to autos. Newer models with tow settings (different shift progamming) work very well for towing and we have seen zero transmission problems with the new auto's . modern electronics have come a long way in protecting parts.

[gritsngravy]

Either some of the folks posting to this thread are super young or have very bad memories.   Honda has been putting out automatic bikes since the 70's and they have yet to crack open the market.    There was the clutch less cb750, cb/cm 400's that never sold very well.    Yamaha has dropped their auto clutch FJR.    Choice and options are a good thing but thinking automatics are going to become the norm is funny as hell.

[Kootenanny]

fleet maintenance records to not support your claim. Autos over the long haul are cheaper to maintain than a manual. One of the reasons we have switched all our trucks to autos. Newer models with tow settings (different shift progamming) work very well for towing and we have seen zero transmission problems with the new auto's . modern electronics have come a long way in protecting parts.

Although I'm one of the guys dissing automatics, I have to agree...from an engineering standpoint, the new automatics are very good.  Indeed, one of the reasons most full-size pickups have gone to auto only is because they're better for towing and possibly more reliable in the long haul (at least, with "joe public"behind the wheel...).

[Kootenanny]

Either some of the folks posting to this thread are super young or have very bad memories.   Honda has been putting out automatic bikes since the 70's and they have yet to crack open the market.    There was the clutch less cb750, cb/cm 400's that never sold very well.    

Yeah, I remember the Hondamatic 400/450, but I think the CB750 was even before my time...the thing is, these things were only in production for a short while back in the 70s/80s; it's not like Honda has been continuously producing them ever since.  

[Rattlehead]

fleet maintenance records to not support your claim. Autos over the long haul are cheaper to maintain than a manual. One of the reasons we have switched all our trucks to autos. Newer models with tow settings (different shift progamming) work very well for towing and we have seen zero transmission problems with the new auto's . modern electronics have come a long way in protecting parts.

My brother has worked in a tranny shop for a number of years and there is a very substantial number of 1/2 tons with burned up trannies well before 100k here in farm country. I know guys that go through at least 1 auto a year because of snow plowing and trailering (6-8000lb semi-regularly), despite huge tranny coolers.
Under light use I have no doubts the better ones will run 200k before needing rebuilt. My Expedition has 156k on it right now and still works flawlessly. However, certain mfg's (won't get into that one) seem to have trouble making it much past 100k regardless of usage. When you put the screws to them though (any of the mfg's), they fall apart fast. Maybe the heavier trucks hold up better, I don't know, but I have little confidance in the 1/2 tons from what I've seen personally. Remember though, I'm speaking from a completely non-comercial point of view. When you start talking "fleets" that's a totally different environment.

Despite all of that, a manual with a driver that knows what their doing (a very important factor with a manual) will last as long as the best autos and willstill cost less to rebuild. 9 times out of 10 a manual needs nothing more than a clutch to get it back on the road (again, from my own experiance).
I will always chose a manual because of my own personal preference. Your results may vary. If autos are working out in your fleets then great, there are several large auto tranny mfg plants around here and I'm sure the workers there appreciate your patronage.

[Thunderbox]

Either some of the folks posting to this thread are super young or have very bad memories.   Honda has been putting out automatic bikes since the 70's and they have yet to crack open the market.    There was the clutch less cb750, cb/cm 400's that never sold very well.    Yamaha has dropped their auto clutch FJR.    Choice and options are a good thing but thinking automatics are going to become the norm is funny as hell.

You are correct.  My wife has a 400 Hondamatic.  The reason they never became popular is obvious should you ever ride one.  2 speed slush box tranny.  Thats why the GM 2 speeds are a thing of the past.  Now put a paddle shifted CVT in a bike like the Mana and it is pretty dang nice.  You can still do all the shifting you want or have the bike do it for you.  Seems like they are on the right track.

[black hills]

My brother has worked in a tranny shop for a number of years and there is a very substantial number of 1/2 tons with burned up trannies well before 100k here in farm country. I know guys that go through at least 1 auto a year because of snow plowing and trailering (6-8000lb semi-regularly), despite huge tranny coolers.
Under light use I have no doubts the better ones will run 200k before needing rebuilt. My Expedition has 156k on it right now and still works flawlessly. However, certain mfg's (won't get into that one) seem to have trouble making it much past 100k regardless of usage. When you put the screws to them though (any of the mfg's), they fall apart fast. Maybe the heavier trucks hold up better, I don't know, but I have little confidance in the 1/2 tons from what I've seen personally. Remember though, I'm speaking from a completely non-comercial point of view. When you start talking "fleets" that's a totally different environment.

Despite all of that, a manual with a driver that knows what their doing (a very important factor with a manual) will last as long as the best autos and willstill cost less to rebuild. 9 times out of 10 a manual needs nothing more than a clutch to get it back on the road (again, from my own experiance).
I will always chose a manual because of my own personal preference. Your results may vary. If autos are working out in your fleets then great, there are several large auto tranny mfg plants around here and I'm sure the workers there appreciate your patronage.

we don't use 1/2 tons for anyting more than what they are rated for and rarely tow with them. the 1tons and up have been fine with the autos. Part of the problem is getting the right truck for the job