Theoretical Discussion: No Police Force

[Johnny Monsoon]

There have been a couple theoretical discussions here of late (like the effects of immortality on society).  And there have also been quite a few police related threads which have spawned a pretty clean division about officer's perceptions and the public's perceptions of them.

So I got to thinking, what would be the effects, do you think, if we didn't employ a police force?  I'm not suggesting that we don't have a military, but I am expecting that we won't see martial law being enforced.

The police force both helps and hinders us.  It seems like the vast majority of their efforts are misguided and generally aimed at minor infractions which are politically based rather than preserving the actual peace and safety of the citizens in its care (and by this, I do not mean pulling someone over for a burnt out headlight, but actually stopping violent crimes).  I believe that the population would generally put limits on itself.  The moral compass tends to run within a standard tolerance regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion.  Throughout history, the employment of a militant/policing agency has always emerged not to serve the people but to preserve the wealth of the ruler by controlling the ruler's public.  I believe that is still largely the case, despite the best efforts of police with good intentions and pure ideals.

I believe people would more actively defend themselves, and at the same time reform much tighter, and less litigious communities.  Certainly, an armed society is a polite society, and we all know that's true.  I believe a courts system could remain, and be fully active and healthy without the aid of police officers.  I believe the massive expense incurred by police forces could be better spent elsewhere.

I believe our society would improve.  We would have to behave like adults and take responsibility for our actions, and also act for ourselves, without fear of persecution for defending ourselves in times of need.  

Discuss.

[Scratch33]

What about the rest of the judicial system and penal system?   Can they operate w/o police, and vice versa?

[bunchabull]

Putting aside violent crime for a minute, can you imagine what traffic would be like if everyone could drive whenever and however they liked?

[Scratch33]

  Certainly, an armed society is a polite society, and we all know that's true.

 

[wibornz]

Well this is easy, just look at some of the African countries that have no formal police.  It seams to be working out great for the warlords, rapist and overall thugs. Heck is some of the countries, you can get someone killed for three whole American dollars. We could all go back to ruling by sword.  

In reality the police/law enforcement is a gang.  A bigger stronger gang than any other gang. By and large, they protect the citizens in a good way.  

After spending 20+ years working in various prisons from minimum to super maximum, I would tell you that the average person in America does not have a clue as to the type of people that exist in the fringe of our society.  It is only because of police that these predators are pulled out of society and kept from the sheep in society. Believe me 99% of people are sheep.  I could type for days about people that are leaders and would rule or did rule their towns or communities until the police stopped it.  

No police,  gun up and not just you, but all of your friends and stay tight. After all that is what has to happen.  

I think we forget that the police do it so we don't have to.

[Johnny Monsoon]

What about the rest of the judicial system and penal system?   Can they operate w/o police, and vice versa?

I fail to see why not.  In fact, I believe they'd be far more efficient since the majority of the trivial actions brought into the courts system would be absent.

[Johnny Monsoon]

Well this is easy, just look at some of the African countries that have no formal police.  It seams to be working out great for the warlords, rapist and overall thugs. Heck is some of the countries, you can get someone killed for three whole American dollars. We could all go back to ruling by sword.  

In reality the police/law enforcement is a gang.  A bigger stronger gang than any other gang. By and large, they protect the citizens in a good way.  

After spending 20+ years working in various prisons from minimum to super maximum, I would tell you that the average person in America does not have a clue as to the type of people that exist in the fringe of our society.  It is only because of police that these predators are pulled out of society and kept from the sheep in society. Believe me 99% of people are sheep.  I could type for days about people that are leaders and would rule or did rule their towns or communities until the police stopped it.  

No police,  gun up and not just you, but all of your friends and stay tight. After all that is what has to happen.  

I think we forget that the police do it so we don't have to.

You can't really compare the two.  Let's go ahead and look at Africa.  The Warlords are warlords because their society is unarmed, and because trade is not enforced, and the social code there is loose and fast.  We don't live in that society.

Now look at Doha.  While it isn't exactly a model for America, the police presence is almost nil.  They do have a present military, but largely things are left to be settled amongst themselves.  Driving, as mentioned above, can be interesting for sure, but again, people are generally not so uptight and they get where they want.  When everyone realizes they're responsible for themselves, and that if they fail to respect their fellow citizens (or worse, actively disrespect) they know there's a heavy consequence.  Keeps folks in line.

Let's look at Thailand.  Again, very little in the way of any police presence.  Some of that society is heartbreaking to see, however the vast majority of places are peaceful, beautiful, and organized.  Traffic is insane, but again, people are careful with eachother.

[Scratch33]

I fail to see why not.  In fact, I believe they'd be far more efficient since the majority of the trivial actions brought into the courts system would be absent.

And the non-trivial actions will be brought into the courts by..............................?

[Johnny Monsoon]

And the non-trivial actions will be brought into the courts by..............................?

People who present themselves to the courts systems.  Just like it has worked for thousands upon thousands of years in other societies.

This isn't a 'bash a cop' thread, but just an exercise to explore the idea.

[Scratch33]

People who present themselves to the courts systems.

Ah, so it's all voluntary now?  

[Scratch33]

Just like it has worked for thousands upon thousands of years in other societies.

Give us a modern-day example.

[PatM]

I fail to see why not.  In fact, I believe they'd be far more efficient since the majority of the trivial actions brought into the courts system would be absent.

You're talking about a lawless society, where the strongest (meanest, baddest, etc) wins. There could be no justice system as the courts could not enforce any decisions. Who would go out and arrest the villain?
Why bother with courts then? Why not just get a mob and lynch him? That would be fast and efficient.

[PatM]

Throughout history, the employment of a militant/policing agency has always emerged not to serve the people but to preserve the wealth of the ruler by controlling the ruler's public.  I believe that is still largely the case, despite the best efforts of police with good intentions and pure ideals.

The rich would still profit of having no police. They would have their own armed men.

[PatM]

In reality the police/law enforcement is a gang.  A bigger stronger gang than any other gang. By and large, they protect the citizens in a good way.  

Yes the police is a gang. They use force / threat of force. But they work at enforcing rules which we call laws. Laws aren't perfect but at least they should be the same for every one. And police also have to abide by those laws.

[The Shepherd]

No cops = anarchy.

There would be no reason to follow any type of laws since there would be no one to come and arrest you. If you think that handing everyone a gun would solve the issue, people would be getting blown away for every reason under the sun. Hell, the next time the neighbour next door decides to mow is lawn at 6:30am, I'd shoot him from my bathroom window, take his gun so I have an extra one and sell his wife and kids into slavery.

So what would stop the millions of un-employed from just taking what they want? Screw it, why would I go to work everyday? I'd just take what I wanted and shoot anyone that gets in my way.

The neighbour chick across the street is nice to look at, I think I'd abduct her and start my own harem. First I'd have to snipe her husband from the spare bedroom and then she'd be mine. Maybe I wouldn't sell the neighbour wife into slavery but use her as a maid since she's pretty fat and wouldn't be "harem" quality.


I don't believe for one second that humans could follow some moral code without the Rule of Law and the threat of being locked up in jail. Look at what happened after Katrina.

[PatM]

Yes, if we had a society where 100% of the population lived by a strict moral code, the same for every one, we could do without police.

[Windblown]

There is a term for what you describe: Anarchy While it may be ok on paper it totally fails to take into account the darker side of human nature.  This has been understood by societies dating back to early civilization.

However, I agree that in our attempts to make things "Better" we have in general made things worse.  Our system of laws, and those that enforce those laws them should not unduly encroach on our personal freedoms yet of late they do just that on an ever increasing basis. We have become far too proactive in our attempts to prevent harm to others and in the process have become much more like a police state. The opposite side of the coin, and arguably just as bad.

Everything in moderation. Words to live by.

[Justin]

I know if there was no police force, that I would act completely different myself; so I assume everyone else would as will. For example, if I had no fear of a traffic stop, I would ride/drive around at 100+ Mph everywhere. If everyone was doing that it would be mess  .

[miles]

The rich would still profit of having no police. They would have their own armed men.

Which is exactly what happens in Mogadishu right now.

[miles]

Well this is easy, just look at some of the African countries that have no formal police.  It seams to be working out great for the warlords, rapist and overall thugs. Heck is some of the countries, you can get someone killed for three whole American dollars. We could all go back to ruling by sword.  

Exactly.  Somalia is a Libertarian paradise in some ways.