Exotic pets

[Snowbird]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The exotic pet trade needs a serious go-over the prevent environmental problems.

From the AP:

Pythons apparently wiping out Everglades mammals
MATT SEDENSKY  -  The Associated Press

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) — A burgeoning population of huge pythons — many of them pets that were turned loose by their owners when they got too big — appears to be wiping out large numbers of raccoons, opossums, bobcats and other mammals in the Everglades, a study says.

The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that sightings of medium-size mammals are down dramatically — as much as 99 percent, in some cases — in areas where pythons and other large, non-native constrictor snakes are known to be lurking.

Scientists fear the pythons could disrupt the food chain and upset the Everglades' environmental balance in ways difficult to predict.

"The effects of declining mammal populations on the overall Everglades ecosystem, which extends well beyond the national park boundaries, are likely profound," said John Willson, a research scientist at Virginia Tech University and co-author of the study.

Tens of thousands of Burmese pythons, which are native to Southeast Asia, are believed to be living in the Everglades, where they thrive in the warm, humid climate. While many were apparently released by their owners, others may have escaped from pet shops during Hurricane Andrew in 1992 and have been reproducing ever since.

~snip~

According to an article that ran in The Buffalo News recently, some US politicians are opposed to restrictions on the exotic pets trade because "it'll hurt jobs."

[Mr.Black]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The exotic pet trade needs a serious go-over the prevent environmental problems.

From the AP:



According to an article that ran in The Buffalo News recently, some US politicians are opposed to restrictions on the exotic pets trade because "it'll hurt jobs."

Feed the unemployables to the snakes.

[mxvet57]

Even more aggressive snake that's starting to take hold in the everglades is the African Rock Python. This snake has a really bad attitude. From what i have herd if the Burmese and the African rock pythons mate there could be a possibility of a super snake.

[Mac]

if the Burmese and the African rock pythons mate there could be a possibility of a super snake.

Ooooo, a SciFi channel movie that actually comes true. Could snakehead terror be next?

[Justin]

Sadly, it's not the first invasive species that been brought here, and it will not be the last. Now all they need to do is introduce a predator of the Python to the everglades.

[Snowbird]

Sadly, it's not the first invasive species that been brought here, and it will not be the last. Now all they need to do is introduce a predator of the Python to the everglades.

What would that predator be?  

[Scratch33]

What would that predator be?  

Colonel Clay, in the Everglades, with a lead pipe.  

[R Doug]

According to an article that ran in The Buffalo News recently, some US politicians are opposed to restrictions on the exotic pets trade because "it'll hurt jobs."

Like wild game catchers and Sheriff deputies when they get loose!  

I don't get the need to have an exotic pet.  I'm generally not for more legislation on people's freedom, but sometimes we need protected from ourselves.  

[scottzilla]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The exotic pet trade needs a serious go-over the prevent environmental problems.

From the AP:



According to an article that ran in The Buffalo News recently, some US politicians are opposed to restrictions on the exotic pets trade because "it'll hurt jobs."

You are officially out of content.  You posted this very subject a few years ago.  

[scottzilla]

Sadly, it's not the first invasive species that been brought here, and it will not be the last. Now all they need to do is introduce a predator of the Python to the everglades.

First, "Invasive" is very misleading.  People love to label anything they view as a threat as an "Invasive" species.  
If you tried to list every animal and insect that is found in the US right now that isn't originally from here, you would run out of ink.

There is a very effective predator already: The American Alligator.

[scottzilla]

Even more aggressive snake that's starting to take hold in the everglades is the African Rock Python. This snake has a really bad attitude. From what i have herd if the Burmese and the African rock pythons mate there could be a possibility of a super snake.

Most snakes are "More aggressive" than Burmese Pythons.  Burmese are quite tame and mellow.  

[scottzilla]

Like wild game catchers and Sheriff deputies when they get loose!  

I don't get the need to have an exotic pet.  I'm generally not for more legislation on people's freedom, but sometimes we need protected from ourselves.  

I agree.  Pit Bulls should be exterminated.

[Rincewind]

Now all they need to do is introduce a predator

I'm sure that would end well.

[county]

I agree.  Pit Bulls should be exterminated.

We could send Pit Bulls to the Everglades, I think a Pit Bull fighting a python would be great entertainment...

[CosmicCowboy]

Ooooo, a SciFi channel movie that actually comes true. Could snakehead terror be next?

It's only a matter of time...

[HipGnosis]

First, "Invasive" is very misleading.  People love to label anything they view as a threat as an "Invasive" species.  
If you tried to list every animal and insect that is found in the US right now that isn't originally from here, you would run out of ink.
There is a very effective predator already: The American Alligator.

Gee....

The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that sightings of medium-size mammals are down dramatically — as much as 99 percent, in some cases

is the text book definition of 'invasive'.  WTF is your definition?
Apparently the gator ain't up to the job.   Just what is your definition of 'effective'?!?

[scottzilla]

Gee....
 is the text book definition of 'invasive'.  WTF is your definition?
Apparently the gator ain't up to the job.   Just what is your definition of 'effective'?!?

You are correct.  By definition, these snakes are absolutely an invasive species.
I just hate the way the term is thrown around STN; we've labeled feral cats "Invasive" for chrissakes.
I jumped the gun.  Now go and gloat.

[radman]

[CLAY]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

You complain a lot.

[SalsaShark]

It all gets worked out in the end...

The pythons will be eaten when they introduce the Bolivian Tree Lizard

The lizards will be taken care of by the Chinese Needle Snakes

The needle snakes will be eaten by the introduced Snake-Eating Gorillas

The gorillas will freeze and die once winter rolls around

problem solved!

[scottzilla]

It all gets worked out in the end...

The pythons will be eaten when they introduce the Bolivian Tree Lizard

The lizards will be taken care of by the Chinese Needle Snakes

The needle snakes will be eaten by the introduced Snake-Eating Gorillas

The gorillas will freeze and die once winter rolls around

problem solved!

I'm pretty sure they were snake eating monkeys.

[CLAY]

Cats.  They need more cats.  

[SalsaShark]

I'm pretty sure they were snake eating monkeys.

  nope... gorillas.

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/5F22

Skinner:  Well, I was wrong.  The lizards are a godsend.
Lisa:     But isn't that a bit short-sighted?  What happens when we're overrun by lizards?
Skinner:  No problem.  We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes.  They'll wipe out the lizards.
Lisa:     But aren't the snakes even worse?
Skinner:  Yes, but we're prepared for that.  We've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.
Lisa:     But then we're stuck with gorillas!
Skinner:  No, that's the beautiful part.  When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death.

[Hardware]

What would that predator be?  

If only there were some kind of Python Hunters.

[Snowbird]

If only there were some kind of Python Hunters.

A single snake can make multiple offspring in a single year. These guys have their work cut out.

[Snowbird]

You are officially out of content.  You posted this very subject a few years ago.  

Really? I said that before?

From OP:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The exotic pet trade needs a serious go-over the prevent environmental problems.

This (my OP) is a new development in the topic.

[scottzilla]

Really? I said that before?

From OP:


This (my OP) is a new development in the topic.

omg you are so interesting.

[KenH]

Wow, lots of conventional "wisdom" about pythons that isn't exactly right. Let's straighten things out.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The exotic pet trade needs a serious go-over the prevent environmental problems.

There are definately problems with the exotic pet trade. The vast majority of exotics die from unsuitable habitats and husbandry provided for them, which boils down to cruelty.

Feed the unemployables to the snakes.

 

Even more aggressive snake that's starting to take hold in the everglades is the African Rock Python. This snake has a really bad attitude. From what i have herd if the Burmese and the African rock pythons mate there could be a possibility of a super snake.

Python sebae and Python molurus bivittatas (Burmese) are different species and are quite unlikely to breed and produce viable offspring. Worse case scenario, think horse x donkey --> mule. The only interspecies crossbreeding of large pythons of which I'm aware was a mating between a Python reticulatus (Reticulated) and a molurus molurus, which resulted in about 90 eggs of which 3 hatched, 2 were deformed and died shortly after hatching, and the third lived about 4 years, but was never able to reproduce with either parent genus. There may be other interbreds of which I am not aware.

Sebae tend to be a bit nippy and do not tame well. Molurus bivittatas are akso by nature quite aggressive, but most individuals can be easily trained to dependably tolerate handling if the training begins when they are young. Some people tend to think their Burmese learn to enjoy being held, but more than likely from the snake's point of view, human body heat is a dandy aid to digestion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Python molurus molurus (Indian) is a subspecies of the molurus bivittatas and tends to have a nasty attitude that cannot be trained out. The two will breed quite easily, yielding viable offspring with size approaching molurus bivittatas and the nasty attitude of molurus molurus. Molurus molurus is sometimes called "Indian Rock Python" so I expect that is the "super snake" parent to which you refer. Even so, a molurus x bivittatas interbred is much less troublesome than rectilatus or any Boidae Binae eunectes (anaconda) species, all of which have nasty attitudes and grow bigger than any molurus x bivittatas interbred.

Colonel Clay, in the Everglades, with a lead pipe.  

I see the cost of snakeskin boots dropping.

Most snakes are "More aggressive" than Burmese Pythons.  Burmese are quite tame and mellow.  

Burmese are not by nature "tame and mellow." However, most individuals can be trained to tolerate handling and will display a consistently "friendly" nature. Simply done welding gloves and 2 or 3 times a day lift and gently handle a neonate. Within 2-4 weeks the creature will give up on defending itself and tolerate handling. another 2-4 weeks, and the creature will learn to use human body heat to digest and will actually seek out an arm to climb up when it sense the familiar vibrations of the enclosure being opened. That is why the Burmese is by far the most popular of the large pythons in the pet trade.

Burmese also seem more able to learn patterns and timing than most other reptiles. All our adult Burmese would start "hunting" on Wednesday afternoon, their normal feeding day, making laps around the cage. Unlock the lid, and they'd start crawling up the side of the enclosure looking for a warm body to climb upon. Unlock one of the feeding doors, which were one either end of the enclosure, and they'd hustle into position to get the prey about to be tossed in that door. Usually they'd grab the pre-killed prey when it was tossed in a feeding door, before it hit the floor. Sometimes it was necessary to unlock one door, then have a kid jiggle the lock on the other door to lure the snake away from the door that the prey would be tossed through. It only took once for a 17-foot python to come out of the door and snag a rabbit from my hand for me to commit to safe feeding practices.  

Cats.  They need more cats.  

Actually, they need to stop feeding the feral cats. Hungry feral cats will happily feast on neonate pythons. Well, at least until the pythons grow large enough to feast on the cats.

If only there were some kind of Python Hunters.

Even large pythons are difficult to find in the wild. They are masters of camoflage and blend in well even when not slithered down into some rodent burrow.

A single snake can make multiple offspring in a single year. These guys have their work cut out.

True, sort off. Actually, a single snake cannot have offspring. it takes two, just like the birds and the bees. Fluffy laid 106 eggs one year, of which 102 hatched. Even in captivity it is difficult to breed more than 2 of 3 years, even a good eater like Fluffy not permitted to tend. Females do not eat while gravid, and if allowed to tend, do not eat until after hatching. Depending on climate, females may go 6 months without eating, with all the nutrients used to develop and tend the eggs coming from reserves in the female's body.

Admitidly, Fluffy was an unusually good eater and therefore grew to unusual size for a Burmese, a bit over 21 feet long and 230-270 pounds depending on feeding and defecation schedules. Her regular diet was a 15-20 pound breeder rabbit or feeder pig once a week. During the brief period between pre-breeding environmental manipulation and when she became too gravid to eat, she would eat 3-4 meals a week.

By the way, that Crazy Frog, a.k.a., Annoying Thing, is a girl. Any herptologist can see that right away.

[scottzilla]

 

[ConPilot1]

Fluffy was an unusually good eater and therefore grew to unusual size for a Burmese, a bit over 21 feet long and 230-270 pounds

This was a personal pet snake of yours?? Fluffy???? 21 feet and 250 lbs??? Wholly f*ck man. No freaking way.
I dig snakes but anything that's capable of crushing my chest without even thinking about it and probably swallowing my ass whole
is a no-go to say the least. That's a big, BIG damn python.

I had a 5ft Ball Python when I was younger, that thing wrapped itself around my neck good one day and gave me a bit of a red-faced scare when
it started constricting around my damn throat. Bastards are stronger than you think when they get their grip and and start bearing down.

[scottzilla]

Ken once caught a fish this big.  Seriously.




(Welcome back Ken )

[Scratch33]

This was a personal pet snake of yours?? Fluffy???? 21 feet and 250 lbs???

Yep - he caught it in Laos, don'tcha know.  Epic battle.

[CLAY]

That's why I have a Ball Python.  NOT aggressive at all.  

It would be fun to cut loose on some snakes.  Reminds of of an email I received (forthcoming).

[Snowbird]

There are definately problems with the exotic pet trade. The vast majority of exotics die from unsuitable habitats and husbandry provided for them, which boils down to cruelty.

There is no way to cure the exotic pet trade because there is no way to sort out humans who are inherently lazy and selfish.

[CLAY]

Here ya go.  Hunting snakes in Africa:
Wrap arm in skin so teeth don't puncture you:

Climb into hole:

Use outdoorsman's flashlight to investigate dark hole:

Find snake:

Snake lunges (I think this one is from a different set someone added):

Snake grabs onto hide-covered arm.  You grab snake and hold:

You and snake are extracted:

Get snake out:

Kill snake and take snake home to feed the families:

[Cablebandit]

Wouldn't the cameraman in the hole have provided more meat for the village?

[CLAY]

   One would think...

[Snowbird]

Do they go back in for the eggs?

Do you think these guys would like to live in Florida? (Immigrants taking American jobs.)

[KenH]

This was a personal pet snake of yours?? Fluffy???? 21 feet and 250 lbs??? Wholly f*ck man. No freaking way.
I dig snakes but anything that's capable of crushing my chest without even thinking about it and probably swallowing my ass whole
is a no-go to say the least. That's a big, BIG damn python.

I had a 5ft Ball Python when I was younger, that thing wrapped itself around my neck good one day and gave me a bit of a red-faced scare when
it started constricting around my damn throat. Bastards are stronger than you think when they get their grip and and start bearing down.

Fluffy was my daughter's first Burmese. She was part of a breeding group that included Fuzzy (male), Hippie, and Hairball. Hippie and Hairball were females. Fluffy was heterozygotic for albanism, Fuzzy, Hippie, and Hairball were homozygotic for albinism. Sweat, Blood, Puss, and Mucus were homozygotic for patternless. Pretty good money in breeding unusual color morphs 20 years ago.

We had about 60 ball pythons, not because they were profitable to breed, but to provide captive bred neonates to take some of the collection pressure off wild collections. Ball pythons lay 3-6 eggs every 2 or 3 years, compared to the Burmese laying 60-100 2 of three years. At the time, ball pythons brought about $18, a normal Burmese $35, an albino Burmese $79, and a patternless $130. It was grest fun to for all the kids and half the adults in the 'hood to come over and take the Burmese out in the front yard for a slither. Passersby often ran off the road, with the occasional gawker crashing while looking over his shoulder.

Financially, ball pythons were losers. So were the CITES animals we breed. We also bred a couple CITES animals, Spotted Desert Tortoises and San Francisco Garter Snakes. These were not for sale and offspring were donated to various zoos and breeding programs around the world.

We also had Indonesian Water Pythons, chondropythons, emerald boas, and redtail boas, corn snakes, rat snakes, western Hognose, king snakes, and milk snakes, all of which were rare color and pattern morphs. We also bred Chinese Water Dragons, Bearded Dragons, Savannah Monitors, Firebelly Toads, Firebelly Newts, albino African Clawed Frogs, and Bettas. All were bred in an attempt to ease wild collection pressures.

There are certain safety procedures that MUST be followed when dealing with constrictors of any size. They are amazingly strong and even small ones can be dangerous if one allows them tp be. Safe husbandry practices are now easily found on the internet. Too bad most owners don't give a rip, which is where problems develop. Note that we only worked with larger species with a history of docile behavior and/or trainability to be docile. None were venemous. We chose specific individuals from wholesale lots based on individual behavioral patterns.

Ken once caught a fish this big.  Seriously.




(Welcome back Ken )

.

Yep - he caught it in Laos, don'tcha know.  Epic battle.

You two are such a cute couple.   Have fun playing with each other's stubby pythons.

[Snowbird]

 

[JonS]

Here ya go.  Hunting snakes in Africa:
Wrap arm in skin so teeth don't puncture you:

Climb into hole:

Use outdoorsman's flashlight to investigate dark hole:

Find snake:

Snake lunges (I think this one is from a different set someone added):

Snake grabs onto hide-covered arm.  You grab snake and hold:

You and snake are extracted:G]

Get snake out:

Kill snake and take snake home to feed the families:

  That's one tough way to make a living. No way!

[Hardware]

  That's one tough way to make a living. No way!

Well, they settled on snakes after trying this technique on lions and crocs.  That R&D was a bitch!

[maddjack]

Aren't humans the original , ultimate , invasive species?

[Snowbird]

I wonder if the invasive pythons could be trapped somehow. Perhaps they could be (Step 1) attracted via pheromones or an especially attractive den site then (Step 2) killed after being verified via remote viewing.

[KenH]

I wonder if the invasive pythons could be trapped somehow. Perhaps they could be (Step 1) attracted via pheromones or an especially attractive den site then (Step 2) killed after being verified via remote viewing.

Interesting ideas. I don't know what role scent plays in python breeding behaviors. I believe with some temperate species, females tend to travel in circles around a den or nesting site, while males strike out in a straight line from their brumation locations. Such behavior reduces inbreeding and spreads genetic variation. I'm not sure if such behaviors are typical of tropical species. Tropical species really have no need for brumation since they really do not experience a summer/winter pattern beoyond whether their side of the mountain is in the sun or in the shade that particular month.

An "especially attractive den site" probably wouldn't attract much. Most wild snakes I've caught, marked, and caught again rarely traveled far, though I've not worked with pythons in the wild. The exceptions would be some species of rattlesnake. I don't think most pythons actually congregate in dens in the wild. They spend the vast majority of their lives moving around only enough to maintain a body temperature of 80-90*F, seeking shade in the warmer parts of the day and sun or sun-warmed terrain in the cooler parts of the day. Some aboreal species may never leave the tree in which they were hatched, sunning themselves on the branches, seeking shelter from temperature extremes in a hollow in the tree, and snagging the occasional bird that flies by. A terrestrial species may sun on a rock, seek shelter under the same rock, and snag the occasional critter that wanders by. Some of the larger species are known to wait patiently in a single location for up to a year for dinner to wander by, then spend the next year digesting.  As far as I know a large snake will move only to the nearest game trail when hunting. If anything, they are patient and persistent. Therefore, a snake hunter needs to cover territory and actively seek out snakes in the specific ecological niches which a particular trageted species prefers.

While some species prefer specific ecosystem, others, such as the Burmese, are not that picky. Burmese adapt readily to swamps, rocky hillsides, grasslands, forests, and even under houses. All a Burmese, and just about any other large python or boa, really requires is consistent temperatures (provided by crawlspace HVAC ducting), a dependable water source (AC condensation, lawn sprinklers, dog dish, pool), and irresponsible neighbors who let their pets run loose. Beats an iron pipe any day.  

[CLAY]

Aren't humans the original , ultimate , invasive species?

No more than any other species that has spread.  

[Snowbird]

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/orlando_opinionators/2012/01/ken-salazar-talks-snakes.html

Ken Salazar talks snakes
Mike Lafferty — posted by Mike Lafferty on January, 19 2012 9:16 AM
Discuss This: Comments(4) | Add to del.icio.us | Digg it

Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar met with the editorial board Wednesday afternoon to talk snakes and the Everglades. He was accompanied by Dan Ashe, director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

While they were in town primarily because of an initiative to preserve land around the Everglades’ headwaters, Salazar also was making news this week by announcing an import ban on Burmese pythons that have invaded the Everglades, along with several other species of constrictor snakes.

Good for him. But U.S. policy on exotic species is what’s really broken. The ban on pythons comes long after they’ve established a large population in the Glades.

~snip~

Any attempt to control the import of exotic species is met with fierce opposition by reptile breeders and the like, who say such regulations are job killers.

Here’s the link to a video from yesterday’s meeting: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/67468438/News/Ken-Salazar-Dan-Ashe-on-snake-threat-in-the-Everglades

The article is then discussed by three or four absolute idiots.

[CLAY]

Tis truth.  We ban things AFTER they are proven to be a problem.  Most countriues make you prove the AREN'T a problem befoire you can import them.