NPR on Biker Persecution in AZ

[SWriverstone]

Just heard a story on NPR's "All Things Considered" about a small war going on in Carefree, Arizona. (Yep—that's actually the town's name. And it's got streets with names like Easy and Tranquil. Must be a retirement community, LOL.)
 
Apparently Carefree is a yuppy-ritzy-uppity kinda place...and Cave Creek is umm...more "earthy." According to the story, bikers enjoy riding to Harold's Corral in Cave Creek...and the only roads to get there go through Carefree.
 
The citizens of Carefree don't seem to like all the bikers' loud pipes, so they passed an 80dB noise ordinance, with fines of up to $750. The cops in Carefree measure it with microphones on the roof of their patrol cars. The ordinance is posted by signs that show a motorcycle. One biker says this is discrimination.
 
Recently, Harold's Corral set up a wooden platform along with a big decibel level meter...and the bikers all lined up to measure their pipes, LOL. Only a few were louder than 80dB...but of course the problem is when 3-4 bikes rumble through Carefree together.
 
The story had no conclusion, so go figure—what was obvious was that Carefree, the bikers, and Cave Creek were not getting along too well!
 
Scott

[Playinthestreet]

If they enforce the same noise limits for auto exhaust and stereos I don't have a problem.  80db is the federal standard IIRC.  I don't know the test perameters however.

[Mookie]

I can probably sneeze louder than 80dB

[Lawn Dart]

I don't find it discriminating at all.  I, for one, don't like loud pipes.  they truly are a nuisance, IMO, especially the twit who guns his open piped HD at 1am outside my house.

So I do say yes, bust them and write them a ticket.  And I also say bust anyone with a fart-can on their 4-banger automatic equiped poser civic.  

The riders are claiming it's discrimination.  HD's factory exhaust does NOT violate the Federal noise laws.  IF they choose to change the factory exhaust for a set of straight through pipes that bellow at 120db, then they have also willingly and knowingly violated the law.

Since when does intentional violation of the law equate to discrimination?

Laguna Beach has strictly enforced noise laws as do many other communities.  Heck, last time I was in Julien there was a police baracade and the police were intentionally testing bikes for sound violations.  It's not unusual at all.

[forester]

Cave Creek has a HAMC.  They probably set that thing up to see if they could nab some Hells angels club members on drugs or weapons charges as they pass through.

[Uncle Bob]

they actually enforce a sound ordinance?  How DARE they!!

I'll never understand some peoples ideas of "freedom".

[mailman1175]

I can probably sneeze louder than 80dB

I've farted louder than 80db... It had to have been that loud: it woke me up.

[Captain Obvious]

I don't see anything wrong with it. They like many others are fed up with the loud pipes group. In reality there is next to no reason to have them, other then being penis extenders.
I would bet the law applies to ALL noise from vehicles over 80db. Fart cans on ricers, and booming subs as well. I don't know this for sure, just a guess.

[R1150RTMark]

I'd be extremely surprised if that testing 'method' was constitutional ('equal protection of the laws' - 14th Amendment).
 
IIRC, for a noise ordinance to have any 'teeth', the testing has to be done at 'X' feet from the source. And if the source is an engine, the law has to specify the relative throttle position - or maybe even rpms.
 
Disclaimer - I am NOT a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express earlier this week. Twice!

[dagwood]

Yup...my neck of the woods is loud pipe central.  Not a problem for me unless it's 2am and it wakes me or my children up.  Idiots on HDs just don't practice any restraint and are too busy looking cool 'round here to care about the bluehairs in Carefree.  BTW Cave Creek is the home of one Sonny Barger...

[Bounce]

i'd add my +1 if enforced on all vehicles and boom boxes/stereos.

[Uncle Bob]

btw, here's a local (AZ) news article on it

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1128noise1128.html

they have a comment section, and lots of people with loud exhaust talk about how important the loud exhaust is for safety reasons.   I call BS, but whatever.

[Tar Snake]

I don't find it discriminating at all. I, for one, don't like loud pipes.

That wasn't the stock pipe on your RS last time I heard it!:D
 
I think soon cops will wise up and look for the stamped EPA info on exhausts and write a ticket regardless of wide open pipe or what we consider pleasingly mellow.
 
My Sprint's not stock either so I'm just engaging in a little "Pot meet Kettle"

[SWriverstone]

I think the claim of discrimination was specifically directed at having a motorcycle on the sign (as opposed to a jackhammer or—ideally—nothing), as if motorcycles are the only loud thing in town.
 
In my college town, there's one thing that makes me near-homicidal, and it's not loud cruiser pipes. It's THUMPIN' SUBWOOFERS.
 
I'm totally serious when I say I've come close to buying a paintball rifle at Wal-Mart and using it to plug those a**holes when they literally rattle the glass in my windowpanes while driving by!
 
Scott

[cbsnbiker]

Gee, Carefree should be proud of all those intrepid riders who are saving lives left and right with their loud pipes! Why, the town could probably get rid of its hospital and ambulance corps!

[roadrailer]

I say bravo! Bonus points if they're nailing "tuner cars" and loud stereos too.
 
This is going to start happening in more and more place, just watch. The public is sick of it, and is starting to realize they don't have to be subjected to knuckledraggers who equate decibels with penis size.

[swimmer]

btw, here's a local (AZ) news article on it

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1128noise1128.html

they have a comment section, and lots of people with loud exhaust talk about how important the loud exhaust is for safety reasons.   I call BS, but whatever.

Yeah, there all soooo concerned with safety. And tell me what group of riders is known for not wearing helmets etc...  Insecure dipshits.

Do you think I could run for president on a "make America more quiet" platform?

[Uncle Bob]

When I worked at the bike shop, I had the.....pleasure?....of riding some open exhaust cruisers on test rides.  

I have to say, I have never ridden anything that compares to noise volume. I really have no idea how people ride these things for extended miles without being completely deaf, especially without full face helmets and ear plugs.

There was no way to ride them in a quiet matter. Being gentle on the throttle and short shifting seemed to make little difference.

I won't attempt to say that sport bikes don't have some loud exhaust also. But its extremely rare to see a sport bike with no baffle whatsoever, and even the most free flowing baffle will greatly reduce sound vs a completely open header.

No, I don't like any super loud exhaust, but if all bikers would at the least have half decently baffled aftermarket exhaust, and no straight pipes, I don't think this would be nearly the issue that it is. As has been said, it only takes a small percentage of morons to ruin it for everyone. I read a previous article about Carefree AZ, when they inacted the original sound ordinance, and cops started recording and citing/warning motorcyclist to put the word out, they had many bikes register over 115 Db from 25 feet away. That is so unbelieavably off the charts of "beyond loud" its hard to quantify.

There is no justification for that, I don't care who you are.  

But a commonly forgotten item on the whole "bikes and noise" issue, about restricting bikes "freedoms". There have been EPA noise regulations since the mid 70's. It has been illegal to modify your exhaust with non-EPA exhaust for over 30 years. There are no new regulations on this, although its often sited otherwise. The difference is bikers in general have drawn enough attention to this problem, that its actually starting to get enforced in some places.

My ZRX, is as quiet as a stock bike, but my exhaust is not EPA approved.....Some of the ordinances that are coming out in places though, I'd still get sited if I get pulled over, which is rather sad. But I know who to thank on that

[SWriverstone]

Yet another controversial noisemaker that more and more towns are cracking down on is...the LEAF BLOWER! I'm sick and tired of listening to those things—run by people who are too damn lazy to use a rake (and who end up using about as much time making noise as they would with a rake).
 
Grrrrr.....
 
Scott

[Tar Snake]

Yet another controversial noisemaker that more and more towns are cracking down on is...the LEAF BLOWER! I'm sick and tired of listening to those things—run by people who are too damn lazy to use a rake (and who end up using about as much time making noise as they would with a rake).
 
Grrrrr.....
 
Scott

I've never quite understood the concept of leaf blowers. They just take the crap from here and blow it over there:headscratch: Then they come back next week and blow the crap from over there back here:bash:
 
Now if they were leaf sucker uppers we'd be onto something!:)

[hovmaven]

I've never quite understood the concept of leaf blowers. They just take the crap from here and blow it over there:headscratch: Then they come back next week and blow the crap from over there back here:bash:
 
Now if they were leaf sucker uppers we'd be onto something!:)

Probably not much of a fall season in So Cal. . ..

[TBone]

Yet another controversial noisemaker that more and more towns are cracking down on is...the LEAF BLOWER! I'm sick and tired of listening to those things—run by people who are too damn lazy to use a rake (and who end up using about as much time making noise as they would with a rake).
 
Grrrrr.....
 
Scott

I'm right with you! I thought I was a little over the top in my annoyance with all the noise pollution. It's good to know it's not just me! I wish my town would start enforcing noise ordinances. I remember when my kids were small how the cruisers with the open pipes would make them cry. That pissed me off to no end.

[SlakeMoth]

Link to NPR article and audio

[county]

Ashland, MS has a sign at their city limits that says "No Loud Music"
 
So what if it's discrimination?  There's no law I'm aware of that says you can't discriminate against motorcycles.  
 
If these guys are enforcing some kinda national standard, good on em, I don't care to have to listen to them Screaming Eagles myself, whether on a Harley or a Blackbird.   Those guys can limit violations by simply slowing down and avoiding all that revving they are so proud of.
 
A responsible rider will limit himself to only offending the populace with his speed.

[jsanford]

The citizens of Carefree don't seem to like all the bikers' loud pipes, so they passed an 80dB noise ordinance, with fines of up to $750. The cops in Carefree measure it with microphones on the roof of their patrol cars. The ordinance is posted by signs that show a motorcycle. One biker says this is discrimination.

I'd agree. The Big Ol' Jacked-up pickup with loud exhaust rumbling down Cave Creek road at 35mph over the speed limit is just as much to blame for any noise that I can remember.

[Uncle Bob]

I'd agree. The Big Ol' Jacked-up pickup with loud exhaust rumbling down Cave Creek road at 35mph over the speed limit is just as much to blame for any noise that I can remember.

lets be realistic, what percentage of cars/trucks are overly loud vs bikes?   I have never been to cave creek, but if its anything like most other places, especially when the bike crowd has a lot of harley's, its not too common to see harley's with stock exhaust

When its that high of a percentage for a group, it will definitely get way more attention.

[R1150RTMark]

When its that high of a percentage for a group, it will definitely get way more attention.

Ditto.  It's the whole impetus behind communities' efforts to ban motorcycles outright.

[noside]

Newburyport, MA and Portsmouth, NH have very strict noise ordinances. It's what happens when you have people living in areas frequented by loud vehicles of any kind. I have zero sympathy for anyone who gets caught, whether it's a biker, a 2Fast2Furious idiot with one of those Hot Wheels cars or a sub-woofer on 4 wheels. The good thing is, my bike goes faster that all of their vehicles so if they find out who I am, a twist of the throttle should get me out of trouble.    

[Windblown]

Enforcing noise regulations: +1, Good on them as long as it is equally applied.
 
Putting a pic of a motorcycle on the warning sign.  An unnecessary dig.  IMHO they shot themselves in the foot with that one.
 
Banning a motorcycle from traveling on any road maintained with state or federal funds: Completely unconstitutional unless the state itself, or the feds (if a federal highway) has banned them.
 
As with most things, gross excess often becomes the catalyst for action. Blatant disregard for anothers right to peaceful existance is a perfect example.

[cbsnbiker]

So what if it's discrimination? There's no law I'm aware of that says you can't discriminate against motorcycles.

Actually, there are codes in Federal TEA legislation and elsewhere that specifically ban discriminating against motorcycles in a number of contexts, both big and small. As I understand it:
 
Big:
 
- they can't be banned from any public road that was built or is maintained using any Federal subsidies (effectively, that means any public road, period);
 
- they must be accepted as qualified for any HOV lane for any public road that was built or is maintained using any Federal subsidies (again, effectively, that means any public road, period);
 
Small:
 
- headlight modulators cannot be banned by any state or local code, since they are specifically authorized by DOT code or statute--so if you ever get a ticket for using a headlight modulator, plead not guilty and bring the appropriate DOT statute with you to show to the judge.
 
Now, bringing this message back onto topic, there are also specific laws regulating sound emission from vehicles, not just motorcycles. The high levels of noise emitted by a relatively small percentage of motorcycle riders threatens the rights of all of us on a number of levels, many of which have been at least mentioned in this thread.

[Dcnblues]

I say bravo! Bonus points if they're nailing "tuner cars" and loud stereos too.
 
This is going to start happening in more and more place, just watch. The public is sick of it, and is starting to realize they don't have to be subjected to knuckledraggers who equate decibels with penis size.

The thing I've been waiting for is a variable baffle aftermarket exhaust.  We've got little servos that can vary the height of airbox stacks, but we can't have an exhaust can with a 'quiet' mode?

Or, maybe we just go back to the 80's and have the aftermarket people offer, as they used to, either 'street' or 'race' baffles.  (I know there are some that probably do, but I couldn't find any such options for the exhaust I bought for the busa)...

[Uncle Bob]

The thing I've been waiting for is a variable baffle aftermarket exhaust. We've got little servos that can vary the height of airbox stacks, but we can't have an exhaust can with a 'quiet' mode?

there's exhaust bypass valves in the turbo world that do the same thing.  For a turbo, you don't need any baffling after the bypass, but you'd probably want one for a non-turbo

[Dcnblues]

Yet another controversial noisemaker that more and more towns are cracking down on is...the LEAF BLOWER! I'm sick and tired of listening to those things—run by people who are too damn lazy to use a rake (and who end up using about as much time making noise as they would with a rake).
 
Grrrrr.....
 
Scott

Me too.  I hate those things with a passion.  They're up there on the list of things our species needs to be embarrassed about.  "Alien anthropologist Mork, with report #23 on the human species:  Not only do these people STILL chop down trees to wipe their asses with, they use gasoline powered two stroke motors to blow LEAVES off the sidewalk.  Incomprehensible..."

My other theory (lost on the old board now) applies to shrivel dick straight pipe types and Mexican leaf blowers: People without power in society will always take and use whatever power they find.  Even if it's only to annoy.  Homeless types will get in the habbit of walking in front of urban traffic.  They realize they have the power to stop the car.  It's about the only power they have.  They use it.

Illegal immigrants work crap jobs for peanut pay.  But they can annoy the hell out of rich white neighborhoods by dragging out the job.  It's about the only power they have.  They use it.

Same deal with straight pipe Harley morons.  But the straight pipers aren't necessarily just about power.  It's also about identity.  Being a 'biker' is about the only sense of identity they have.  If there's nothing else going on in their lives, they hang on to that identity and exagerate it.  Loud pipes are the tool with which they do so.  "Loud Pipes" don't save lives, and they don't just scream "TINY PECKER," they also scream "I DON'T HAVE A LIFE," "PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME," and "IF I WERE SOCIALLY IMPOTENT, COULD I CAUSE THIS MUCH DISTURBANCE?"

[DredheadV2.0]

If they're enforcing a noise ordinance against ALL things over 80dB, then cool.  I find loud exhausts irritating, but as another has said - subwoofers kill me.  At 3AM, I get Mexican oompah music and bad House music from cars cruising by which sets up a standing wave in my bedroom windows, causing (no lie) my entire apartment to shudder.  

I hardly hear the cruiser pipes anymore.  The ambulances... I sleep through them.  But shitgoddam, them subs make me stabby.

[sagerat]

What the heck is a "recreational motorcyclist"?  
 
Article uses the term, but never defines it.  Sorry, I just found it amusing.
 
+1 on Carefree for the loud pipes ban.

[atadaskew]

Carefree and Cavecreek are both very nice, well to do communities.  There are about 4 bars in Cavecreek that, as has been noted, you have to ride through Carefree to get to (unless you want to do the back route via dirt roads).  On weekend there are literally hundreds of Harleys passing through.  Imagine you lived there, every freakin weekend your windows ae being rattled all day and into the night.  After a long work week....
Now if it was sweet sweet unfettered Ducati or Goot-sie music, well that would be different

[goto]

One thing to note is that the speed limit through much of Carefree is 35mph (which seems WAY to slow for the conditions), which can't be much above idle for most V-twins and well below the power band on other bikes.  So to get caught you have to be OBNOXIOUS.

The only places I have seen the Police cars with the mics has been on one of the 35mph stretches (x3)and across the street from one of the bars(x1) (also on a 35mph).

[joema]

Enforcing noise regulations: +1, Good on them as long as it is equally applied.
 Putting a pic of a motorcycle on the warning sign.  An unnecessary dig.  IMHO they shot themselves in the foot with that one...

Yes, the problem is with "selective enforcement". That has long been a legal no-no: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement

Now if every commercial truck, subwoofer-equipped car, and tuner car is equally targeted, the law would be more difficult to challenge.

I've seen (and heard) many commercial dump trucks with rusted out mufflers that are loud as any straight-pipe Harley. They also often have broken/missing brake lights and turn signals, no mud flaps, and no tarp covering the load -- trailing a plume of gravel, sand and debris like a comet.

[Bodhi]

I don't have a problem with an evenly-enforced noise pollution law. That's what local government's role is supposed to be. A community should be able to define itself as pro-growth, a tourist-center, a business mecca or a sleepy, quiet place.

[steve.ski]

Sitting at the Satisfied Frog in CC can be deafening. Many of the H-D guys just fire up their bikes as they leave and rev them to the moon. I suppose in the "biker community" this identifies you as a good rider or something.

Noise is the NUMBER ONE enemy of motorcycling. Street and Off Road. Changes are coming, and although many will be pissed, I can't say I disagree with them.

Now, all that said, there is definitely a case for discrimination here fi motorcycles are the only machines being tested. My neighbor's Ford F350 Diesel is WAY louder than my VFR800. Same goes for my other neighbor's stereo, the leaf blowers, every lawnmower in existence, and TONS of other machines we come in contact with every day. If it's noise that's the problem, then there are literally HUNDREDS of industries that will be effected.

Chicago is considering similar bans on Michigan Avenue, a motorcycle ban was passed in Florida, Laguna Beach, CA has serious noise ordinances, and where I live there's a battle going on for the rights of motorcyclists.

The biggest threat comes from Homeowner's Associations. They can make literally any rule they want, and if you want to change it prepare for an incredibly costly court battle.

This is the time to wise up and get QUIET! Sadly, I don't think our "loud pipes save lives" friends will agree...

[Penforhire]

80 dB doesn't sound right.  Isn't the federal new-vehicle limit something like 93 dB ?  Anyway, anything stricter than federal limit is utter bullshit to me.  And enforcement should include loud music and lawn mowers.

[Tar Snake]

Sitting at the Satisfied Frog in CC can be deafening. Many of the H-D guys just fire up their bikes as they leave and rev them to the moon. I suppose in the "biker community" this identifies you as a good rider or something.

Now that H-D has Fuel Injection and computers they just need to alter the exhaust note from Potato-Potato to Small Penis- Small Penis.

Noise issue solved!  

[dm_gsxr]

Now that H-D has Fuel Injection and computers they just need to alter the exhaust note from Potato-Potato to Small Penis- Small Penis.

Noise issue solved!  

I seem to remember reading that the EFI on the bikes won't let it idle low enough to get a potato-potato sounds any more. That was back when I had an EFI HD.

Carl

[steve.ski]

Now that H-D has Fuel Injection and computers they just need to alter the exhaust note from Potato-Potato to Small Penis- Small Penis.

Noise issue solved!  

LOL! Freaking hilarious...

Perhaps they will try to Patent the sound? Can you imagine the lawyers trying to get that one to fly in court?

[ben1364]

R1150RTMark wrote in part, "...IIRC, for a noise ordinance to have any 'teeth', the testing has to be done at 'X' feet from the source. And if the source is an engine, the law has to specify the relative throttle position - or maybe even rpms...."
 
I can understand what you said about testing standards up to the point about throttle position and RPM.  It seems to me that if the standard is 80 db, it is just that regardless of throttle position or rpm.  Am I wrong?

[steve.ski]

R1150RTMark wrote in part, "...IIRC, for a noise ordinance to have any 'teeth', the testing has to be done at 'X' feet from the source. And if the source is an engine, the law has to specify the relative throttle position - or maybe even rpms...."
 
I can understand what you said about testing standards up to the point about throttle position and RPM.  It seems to me that if the standard is 80 db, it is just that regardless of throttle position or rpm.  Am I wrong?

There are a TON of variables when doing LEGITIMATE noise testing. Distance, throttle position, surroundings, etc. For example:

http://www.ama-cycle.org/news/2003/ABATEnoise.asp

Here are the Arizona State Laws pertaining to motorcycles. In essence, Cave Creek is trying to set standards that are not in concert with the State.

http://home.ama-cycle.org/amaccess/laws/result.asp?state=AZ

Best thing to do here is join the AMA. More of these laws are coming.

Actually, the best thing is to keep the bikes quiet.

[atypical1]

Two take-aways for me:

1. I sincerely hope that I have better things to do when I retire than sit around bitching about loud pipes, car stereo's, etc. Yeah, they can be kinda annoying but I can always find much better things to do than worry about them (like ride!). These folks in Carefree, AZ sound like their pretty well off. Why aren't they out traveling or playing golf or something?

2. I sincerely hope I never live anywhere where the cops have nothing better to do than put mics on their cars to track noise.  

[hazra]

LOL! Freaking hilarious...

Perhaps they will try to Patent the sound? Can you imagine the lawyers trying to get that one to fly in court?

Uh... if I remember correctly, they did try to patent the po-ta-to po-ta-to rumble sound when Honda first came out with the single crank pin Shadow.. and failed. http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/st_org/iptf/articles/content/1998101101.html Try this link for a synopsis (turns out it's more recent then I thought).

Singling out bikes is pretty common here in PA as well.  On rt 32 along the Delaware river last year (or maybe it was the year before) I was riding towards Washington's Crossing when I saw a "Muffler Inspection" sign.  Around the next bend there were two leos sitting on one side of the road, and three or four more in a parking area on the opposite side, waving only motorcycles in.  I pulled in, got off and removed my helmet.  The leo asked for my license, registration, and proof of insurance.  I gave him these which he looked at, looked at my inspection sticker, and thanked me as he gave them back.  I took note that not once did he look at my pipe, and none of the other officers even glanced at the exhaust on other bikes in the lot, no matter the make or noise level of the bike.  While I was putting my credentials away, I asked him what was going on.  A more senior officer heard me and rushed over, explaining that they do this all the time, and that while they were singling out motorcycles today, the following Tuesday they would be pulling over commercial vehicles, and it was just easier to do one type of vehicle at a time.  Later I called up an old friend who is a local cop not far away, and he told me that they only stop motorcycles, and the story was a cover due to recent bad press about the practice - which started due to the high volume of bikes on that road and the excessive exhaust noise.  Good ol' boy net in PA strikes again.  In my opinion, for the most part the volume doesn't bother me, but enforce it evenly or don't do it at all.  A fart can on a Subaru WRX is substantially louder than any of the Harleys in my neighborhood.  Too many people getting their undies in a twist about nonsense.  Make a standardized test part of the annual inspection process or leave it alone... of course, I like the sound of controlled combustion...

[malbojah]

 
I'm totally serious when I say I've come close to buying a paintball rifle at Wal-Mart and using it to plug those a**holes when they literally rattle the glass in my windowpanes while driving by!
 
Scott

I keep my paintball gun in my truck so I can shoot my boss' cars and trucks as he leaves the shop every night. Everybody inside gets a great laugh out of it. It's very stress relieving.

[Nailer45]

enforce the law on all vehicles or get even more bad press coverage...Yes i have an aftermarket slipon can on my VFR but its not loud at all,it adds a deep rumble to the exhaust note...I do hear some bikes go thru town that are so loud its crazy...Harley riders in my area are bad about open strait pipes as i have 2 bars less than 2 blocks from me and at 2am its not unusual to woken by harleys racing down my street..

[roadrailer]

Two take-aways for me:

1. I sincerely hope that I have better things to do when I retire than sit around bitching about loud pipes, car stereo's, etc. Yeah, they can be kinda annoying but I can always find much better things to do than worry about them (like ride!). These folks in Carefree, AZ sound like their pretty well off. Why aren't they out traveling or playing golf or something?

2. I sincerely hope I never live anywhere where the cops have nothing better to do than put mics on their cars to track noise.  

So you'd rather live somewhere where the cops have lots of robberies, rapes, and murders to deal with?  

[Dichotomous]

my friend with VERY sensitive ears and hatred for loud noises and such (he gets mad if I turn my stock stereo over 4) has an old triumph bonnie with a 750cc kit and straight pipes.  its beyond unreasonably loud.  so it doesnt always make sense.  then again he wont turn the bike one without earplugs, but its still likely over 90-100dB with those in

[atypical1]

So you'd rather live somewhere where the cops have lots of robberies, rapes, and murders to deal with?  

Well, that is not exactly what I said but to some extent, yes. I live in San Diego. Not crime free but not a battlefield either. I cannot imagine the cops here having the time to do petty work such as monitor noise levels. I much prefer that to no crime and bored cops. But that is just my $0.000002.

[jpred]

In last weekend's edition of USA Today there was a short article with a dateline of Carefree Az. Two city councilmen got into a heated argument that ended up in a fistfight in the council chambers. Yep, it was over a preposed ordinance on motorcycle exhaust noise.

[R1150RTMark]

In last weekend's edition of USA Today there was a short article with a dateline of Carefree Az. Two city councilmen got into a heated argument that ended up in a fistfight in the council chambers. Yep, it was over a preposed ordinance on motorcycle exhaust noise.

A dollar says one of them owns a Harley with straight pipes.