Triumph Sprint ST vs. Duc ST3 vs. BMW K1200RS

[prshguy]

Would really appreciate some feedback/comparison from some of you who have ridden these bikes.  I bought a 2004 Sprint ST 2 years ago, a joy to ride but reluctantly had to let her go because the knees just got too sore after about 2 hours.  So, right now the two bikes catching my fancy are the ST3 and the K1200RS.  I really like the ST3 for its light weight and styling but am wondering if I'll just be repeating the same mistake as the Sprint.  Found an '04 for sale and since this is the first year of the ST3, were there issues to beware of?

Sat on a K1200RS the other day and it felt comfortable but looks wise doesn't quite light my fire like the ST3.

Thoughts?

[levine98]

I've owned both the Sprint ST (previous generation) and now a Duc ST3.

My .02 is they have very similar riding ergos. Of course you can do a lot to change erogs, such as modified seat, bar risers, suspension settings, rear geomotry settings (on the Duc's at least) etc...Both are far better than any sport bike with clip-ons (which is why I like them), but not as comfortable as a standard fitted out for touring.

I've ridden the BMW, but never owned it. Have not found it very comfortable--too heavy and a longer reach to the handlebar than works for me (I'm 5'10" and 175lb).

[st ryder]

Would really appreciate some feedback/comparison from some of you who have ridden these bikes.  I bought a 2004 Sprint ST 2 years ago, a joy to ride but reluctantly had to let her go because the knees just got too sore after about 2 hours.  So, right now the two bikes catching my fancy are the ST3 and the K1200RS.  I really like the ST3 for its light weight and styling but am wondering if I'll just be repeating the same mistake as the Sprint.  Found an '04 for sale and since this is the first year of the ST3, were there issues to beware of?

Sat on a K1200RS the other day and it felt comfortable but looks wise doesn't quite light my fire like the ST3.

Thoughts?

You are looking at two very different bikes between the beemer and the Ducati, not so much so between the Ducati and the ST. I would recommend doing A LOT(!) of research into BMW big bore K bikes, rs included. Some units have many problems, expensive ones at that. The only ST3 issues I can think of for the '04s were the exhaust rocker closer springs and ecu. Early models had to be called in for no charge warranty replacements, and later model were sorted out at the factory. IIRC the 04's have a dry clutch so you will get some rattling noise from that area, totally normal and somewhat desirable for some.

I owned a '03 FJR and my knees are much happier on my ST3, though the forward position is much more sporting on the Ducati. The 04 and later ST3 seat is perhaps the best stock seat in the industry, and for me, the stock screen provides NO buffeting, just a clean weight off wrists blast of wind around the neck/shoulders.

Good luck.

[prshguy]

With barbacks on the 04 Sprint I liked the ergos, but the old knees just couldn't take it, so moved on to the Concours but I've really got the itch for something newer and more refined.  The Duc is just plain sexy but I'm trying to keep my head on straight here and do my homework.  Can the pegs be dropped on the Duc?

[prshguy]

You are looking at two very different bikes between the beemer and the Ducati, not so much so between the Ducati and the ST. I would recommend doing A LOT(!) of research into BMW big bore K bikes, rs included. Some units have many problems, expensive ones at that. The only ST3 issues I can think of for the '04s were the exhaust rocker closer springs and ecu. Early models had to be called in for no charge warranty replacements, and later model were sorted out at the factory. IIRC the 04's have a dry clutch so you will get some rattling noise from that area, totally normal and somewhat desirable for some.

I owned a '03 FJR and my knees are much happier on my ST3, though the forward position is much more sporting on the Ducati. The 04 and later ST3 seat is perhaps the best stock seat in the industry, and for me, the stock screen provides NO buffeting, just a clean weight off wrists blast of wind around the neck/shoulders.

Good luck.

From what I've found so far, the K bikes had some rear end failures, and clutch problems if the tranny seal faild, are there more?

[st ryder]

From what I've found so far, the K bikes had some rear end failures, and clutch problems if the tranny seal faild, are there more?

Do your research, and include BMW threads at this site for comments from former owners. Look at BMW specific sites as well including these as examples:

http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/cmps_index.php?

http://www.bmwmoa.org/

Side case melting heat from exhaust can, telelever seals leaking, front brake pads evaporating, shift cam springs breaking, final drives and drive shafts premature wear and or catastrophic failures, (heard about one new k12Gt after less than 2500 miles!) excessive labour costs for routine maintenance re drive line spline lubes, etc. Do your research. BMW is NOT what most people think, IE they have an undeserved reputation for reliability. Don't be confused by high mileage "highway queens."  Could you find similar reliability issues with the '04 ST3? Not that I'm aware, but do your research into Ducati ST3 as well. Mine's been very dependable so far    though I'm sure some owners may have had problems, just not to BMW levels.

[prshguy]

st-ryder, two questions

Is the 05 ST3 significantly improved over the 04.  Heard they went to the oil bath clutch, anything else changed?

And how is the heat factor in stop and go.  This will be my daily bike and here in the summer it's typically mid to high 90s and low 100s.

Thanks.

[marc11]

Heat on the Duc ST is a non-issue.  

[prshguy]

Just talked to the dealer, the bike I'm looking at is due for its 6K service and said the heads have to be pulled to service the valves  , total estimate is a shade over $1K  .  Tell me this ain't so!  And apparently the next one is $1200.   I was all set to really want this bike but now.....

I'm pretty good with a wrench so I know I can do a lot of this myself but do the heads really need pulling, that is just lame.

[levine98]

st-ryder, two questions

Is the 05 ST3 significantly improved over the 04.  Heard they went to the oil bath clutch, anything else changed?

And how is the heat factor in stop and go.  This will be my daily bike and here in the summer it's typically mid to high 90s and low 100s.

Thanks.

Along with the wet clutch (2004 had the dry version) I think the 2005 ST3 also has an improved cold start system. The 2004 ST3 uses a manual choke. I've heard from my mechanic that the 2005 ST3 and beyond have a sensor based cold start idle mechanism.

[Mr. Squidward]

Just talked to the dealer, the bike I'm looking at is due for its 6K service and said the heads have to be pulled to service the valves  , total estimate is a shade over $1K  .  Tell me this ain't so!  And apparently the next one is $1200.   I was all set to really want this bike but now.....

I'm pretty good with a wrench so I know I can do a lot of this myself but do the heads really need pulling, that is just lame.

There is no need to pull the heads to adjust valves on the ST3 (or any Ducs that I know of).  $1000 for the 6k service seems a bit high to me (I paid $600 for the 6k on my ST4s) but prices do vary by region.  If you’re buying the bike from a dealer try to have them include the 6k in the deal.

The pegs on the STs are kind of high.  Though I’ve seen lowering plates on eBay that’s not a route I’d take.  You may want to try an extended test ride to see if it bothers your Knees.

[Squiggy]

Just talked to the dealer, the bike I'm looking at is due for its 6K service and said the heads have to be pulled to service the valves  , total estimate is a shade over $1K  .  Tell me this ain't so!  And apparently the next one is $1200.   I was all set to really want this bike but now.....

I'm pretty good with a wrench so I know I can do a lot of this myself but do the heads really need pulling, that is just lame.

Is the dealer Good Times on Auburn Blvd? They are a local Ducati dealer. I know they have two Ducati ST's in the back area.

They wanted $14000 for the 2004 model. Both are supposed to be low milage bikes.

[Vee2Win]

Wow, that is a pretty insane price for an '04.  Should be less than 10K

[st ryder]

st-ryder, two questions

Is the 05 ST3 significantly improved over the 04.  Heard they went to the oil bath clutch, anything else changed?

And how is the heat factor in stop and go.  This will be my daily bike and here in the summer it's typically mid to high 90s and low 100s.

Thanks.

The only major difference is the wet clutch. Whether that's an improvement depends on view point. The '06 and later models went to closed loop injection, and no dash electronic headlamp adjustment. The only heat factor is some heat under left thigh area from rear header pipe in very hot weather, but if you wear proper gear, it's not unbearable.

[st ryder]

Just talked to the dealer, the bike I'm looking at is due for its 6K service and said the heads have to be pulled to service the valves  , total estimate is a shade over $1K  .  Tell me this ain't so!  And apparently the next one is $1200.   I was all set to really want this bike but now.....

I'm pretty good with a wrench so I know I can do a lot of this myself but do the heads really need pulling, that is just lame.

The heads do not have to be removed to adjust the shims, or even inspect the rockers afaik. Shop around for service.

[st ryder]

Along with the wet clutch (2004 had the dry version) I think the 2005 ST3 also has an improved cold start system. The 2004 ST3 uses a manual choke. I've heard from my mechanic that the 2005 ST3 and beyond have a sensor based cold start idle mechanism.

There is no "choke", just a "manual" fast idle lever on my open loop efi '05 as well. '06 and later went to closed loop injection, but I don't know if that excludes a fast idle lever, though it usually does.

[levine98]

There is no "choke", just a "manual" fast idle lever on my open loop efi '05 as well. '06 and later went to closed loop injection, but I don't know if that excludes a fast idle lever, though it usually does.

Is there a difference in practice between the two? Also, how does a fast idle thingamajig work?

[prshguy]

Squiggy, yes, it was Good Times.  Went in and sat on on 06 on the floor, the pegs didn't seem too bad, just a little higher than the Concours I'm on now.  I think the price was $14K for the new 06.  They had a red ST3S next to it that I would love to have but don't think it's really in the budget.  Called Munroe Motors in the Bay Area and got a little better quote of $800 for the 6K service but that is still a good chunk on change.  I need to learn how to work on these things myself.

Did take a ride on a K1200RS and came away somewhat disappointed but it was not a very good example so may try another.  

[st ryder]

Is there a difference in practice between the two? Also, how does a fast idle thingamajig work?

There is no difference in practice between a true "choke" and a fast idle lever which AFAIK, is a cable that advances throttle position/plates like the grip but is unaffected by the return spring. My BMW has one too. The one on the ST3 has an "off label" use in that it can be used as a temporary cruise control at about 60 mph to give your right hand a break, though I'm sure this will stretch the cable if used too often for too long, and the one on the BMW can be cracked open a bit to reduce after fire in the exhaust can on decel. A true choke affects the a/f mixture by "choking" off the air, and there are enrichers too that are still called "chokes" that add fuel. Either one of those will carbon-up your cylinders faster if used too much, too long. I use my fast idle lever only partially to start the bike, *if* fairly cold/cool and only for a few seconds. Otherwise, it starts fine without it, as I don't like having the revs higher than 1400 on cold start-up due to oil needing a little time to get to the head on the vertical cylinder.

[timatwood]

If you have knee problems you should test ride a multistrada. Its essentially a sportbike/sporttourer with scads of legroom, even more than an R1150RT, but it still has lots of ground clearance. It has a pretty high seat, but I'm assuming you aren't very short since most short riders don't worry so much about high pegs on sportbikes.

[Squiggy]

Wow, that is a pretty insane price for an '04.  Should be less than 10K

I was thinking the same thing.

Squiggy, yes, it was Good Times.  Went in and sat on on 06 on the floor, the pegs didn't seem too bad, just a little higher than the Concours I'm on now.  I think the price was $14K for the new 06.  They had a red ST3S next to it that I would love to have but don't think it's really in the budget.  Called Munroe Motors in the Bay Area and got a little better quote of $800 for the 6K service but that is still a good chunk on change.  I need to learn how to work on these things myself.

Even with Ducati's 50% less maintenance thingy I can't justify spending that kind of money on a ST3, or a used 4, and a valve inspection done 7,500 miles or so. I have read about some stretching it out, though. I put too many miles on my bike to spend an additional amount on maintenence service.

My 2001 Katana has the same valve inspection interval but the bike or service (me) dosen't cost nearly as much. Of course it doesn't look or sound as sexy as a Ducati.

Also, our own Dogboy was a salesman there not too long ago. If you want some inside info, you can PM Steve. I don't know if he can get discounts for you.

[TxRider]

Prshguy,

Like most things in web forums, there is some good information here and some "disinformation".  

In the spirit of full disclosure, I have just sold my 2001 Sprint ST and replaced it with the 2001 BMW KRS, but I will try to be as even as I can and avoid over selling the BMW to defend this recent choice.  The Ducati 907 I have had, and will have forever - it is the grandfather to the ST3.

I bought the Sprint with 2200 miles on it and loved every second of the 4 years and 15000 miles I put on it.  It was a gorgeous British racing green and came with the soft saddle bags and tank bag.  The triple had a lot of character and power everywhere.  The bike handled fabulously and my wife rode with me on many missions to the Texas hill country.  Great brakes, some nosedive if you really got on them, a little bit of a rough idle.  I thought the handling was superb and it felt completely stable with one or two of us onboard.  I eventually put a Sargent seat on, which I liked better - and I got a D&D carbon fiber can which really opened her up but took a slight bit of torque away at the very bottom (huge weight savings).  Maintenance (after the fuel QD recall) was all routine stuff - I did everything but the 12000 mile major and valve adjustment.  The bodywork on this bike is fantastically beautiful and was stunning in the BRG paint I had.  The white face on the tach made it stand out from the other gauges and it just looked feminine to me.  Sexy.  Comfort was good considering the sporting nature of the bike; on long trips my legs would get cramped, especially considering the excellent range this thing had - 225 miles on many tanks.  If this bike were a car it would be a Jaguar XKR.  When selling her I was really concerned that I would live to regret it because I have truly truly enjoyed that bike.  It would be a great choice.

The BMW K1200RS was found with 10000 miles on it - owned by a dentist who wasn't much on details.  I have gone completely through her and caught up all the maintenance, and have taken a few short trips already.  I feel the KRS is getting a bad rap in this thread; the maintenance is certainly far less expensive than the ST3 you are considering, but more than the Triumph.  The only real problem boils down to lubing the splines on the output shaft.  Otherwise the bike is bulletproof.  I think I read you test rode a bad example, and I hate that happened.  (Same happened for me on an Aprilia Futura once and it spoiled me on them forever - even though I know it was a bad example I just couldn't look at them the same.)  The KRS is heavy, stable and hugely powerful.  When I think of the Sprint and KRS back to back the best way to describe their differences is scale.  The Sprint excels on smaller two-lane and more twisty roads and does okay on longer more open roads.  The KRS does okay on twisty roads but likes things to be a little more open for the power and momentum it carries.  The front end on the KRS does not dive at all due to the tele lever front end; only the back end lifts a bit.  The KRS is slower handling than the Sprint and even has a steering damper to go with the long wheelbase and weight.  But there is a payoff to the weight as well, and that is supreme stability at very high speed and in windy conditions.  This bike is at home at speeds much higher than I was comfortable on the Sprint (as long as the roads are a little more open) and I have had to put a radar detector on it already!  Compared to the Sprint, these things are expensive bikes but the launch of the newer breed of K bikes has pushed their prices down just a bit (and into my reach).  This is an incredible platform that compresses time and space so that locations you would normally plan to stop at for the night are now lunch stops!  The KRS has character as well, but not anything like the Sprint or especially a Ducati (more about that below).  The KRS is so quiet with the stock pipe, and delivers so little vibration from the engine that if you don't watch the tach you could easily be bouncing off the rev limiter because you forgot to shift.  This bike is SMOOTHHHH it is like straddling a cruise missile.  Comfort is better than the Sprint (did I mention I was 5'11'' and 185lbs?) there is more legroom and there are adjustments for everything - bars fore and aft, pegs up and down and back, and the seat height is adjustable!  Now at a fuel stop I just raise or lower the seat and I have a whole new position that relieves the strain - and the stock seat is quite comfortable for me.  I may have to put a different pipe on it before this is over, but for now I am enjoying the as-delivered OEM experience.  If this bike was a car, it would be a BMW M6.  Expensive, smooth, heavy, and FAST - and although I will miss the Sprint, I am starting to like this bike a lot!  (note:  there is NO fast idle or choke on a KRS, its all computer controlled)

Finally, the Ducati.

I have a 1991 Ducati 907ie and it is the sweetest bike there is.  The look of the thing is sensational and still draws stares even though it is 17 years old!  The styling was done by the same guys who did the more memorable Bimotas and the shapes are what hooked me - along with that RED paint.  The feel of everything is very very direct and crisp, there is no play or take up in any of the controls.  Handling is very dynamic and agile compared to the other two bikes and the riding position is just a touch more sporty than the Sprint.  I have no luggage for this bike other than the tank bag, so use it for day trips and over nighters for which it is perfectly suited.  I mentioned scale earlier and the 907 loves tighter roads like the Sprint (or tighter) because of the great handling.  It feels like you are gripping extensions of the front axle!  But the best I saved for last, and that is the SOUND.  This bike has the OEM black chrome pipes, but they have been "cored" meaning they are empty!  The delicious sound emmanating from these pipes is just amazing.  The Italians really put soul into their machines, and just like a Ferrari or some other exotic, the sound from this bike is intoxicating.  Even on over run between gear changes or the burbling aaaaahahhhhggg  when coming up to a stop light makes me grin like a mad man.  If this bike was a car, it would be a Ferrari GTO!  This bike will not need a new home until I am gone from this earth.  You can only hope that its grandson, the ST3 is as sweet a machine.  The mission of this bike now is to wash away the grime of everyday monotony and give me a new outlook on life.  Thank God for showing men how to create such a machine!!

I hope this post has added to your knowledge on these bikes in some way.
Good luck - don't stress over your decision too much, this is supposed to be fun - any one of these three choices is an excellent mount!  

[SCAL53]

Make no bones about it, I am a beemer guy but will try not to be too bias but that probably can't be helped. The K1200RS can be best summed-up in an interview with Jay Leno back in 2002:

"…The great thing about it (K12RS) is that the speed of it is so deceptive compare to a lot of other bikes. I was on the freeway and I looked down, I see 115 (I had it for about 3 days) and I thought that it is in kilometers of course, but I looked down again and I said this is not kilometers this is Miiiles. It was like 185km. It is deceptively fast… And that's what I like about it, high torque all the time, which is fabulous, it's not peaky at all. It just pulls in any gear… I am just impressed with the workmanship of it, it's almost sort of an aircraft spec. Even more so… You know there's motorcycle spec, and then there's automotive spec and there's aircraft spec. The thing I like about this BMW is that it's built to aircraft specification… As an overall bike I love it, excelling in any one category, there are probably other bikes that might take it. But I don't think if there's any other bike that can do all the things that this can do as well. I think it is the best bike they (BMW) have ever built… A wonderful, wonderful bike…" -- Jay Leno (Interview with Shahram Shiva, June 2002).

We all ride a particular model of bike for a reason. I am not one who has a garage full that picks one depending on my mood. I have one bike and ride 8K-10K annually all on trips (non-commuting). To say that the bike pulls in any gear is a gross understatement. This bike has unbelievable power and muscle that will take you anywhere you want to go and sometimes places you'd rather not be. It's a sport touring machine with very few equals. It's a heavy bike (650 lbs wet) and at the end of a long day in the twisties your upper body will feel it. But, when you are running down an open road with 40mph+ crosswinds you'll be thankful for the extra weight. There is no perfect bike that will excell in all categories, but the K1200RS is the best all-around bike I have ever owned.

[DrMikey]

Let me add my $.02 for the K12RS. The maintenance issues (worn final drives, blown seals, heat from the exhaust) are overstated. The only melted side cases I've heard of were with aftermarket pipes (a waste of money, IMHO). Could it be that those are the only ones that get the attention?

I've had my '04 RS for two years plus, put 15K on, including one Saddlesore 1000. It will handle the twisties, and be comfortable getting there & back. The pegs can be adjusted downward below the stock limit with readily available kits. Ergos can be further addressed with bar backs from several vendors. Seats can be custom fit if you like. Much of the maintenance can be done at home.

it's got the torque of a locomotive. It's the smoothest moto I've ever owned. It may take a while for you to get the ergos dialed in, but once you've got them, you may find yourself pouring over the IBA's rally calendar.

[awlittle]

The guy I do all my riding with has a KRS.  Engine is amazing.  Not a single problem in 24K miles.    One of the most unrated bikes in recent history in my opinion, and an incredible mileage eater.  When I'm practically dragging a knee down the highway in high winds, he's barely swaying.  Sure it doesn't handle the tight stuff like the VFR, but it loves the sweepers.  

[prshguy]

Great feedback, thank you one and all!

Here's how things have worked out:

After the not-so-great first impression with the 1200RS I ended up buying a beautiful 04 ST3 but the honeymoon unfortunately didn't last too long.  While it is hands down the most beautiful bike I've owned in 40 years of riding I don't think it is the bike for me.

It has a very snatchy thottle response that some say can be worked out with the right dealer/mechanic, but that combined with a lack of tall windshield options (losing my hearing and want to protect it) has lead me to an ST1300.  This was kind of unexpected since I had discounted the 1300 due to the weight but then figured if I was going to consider the K1200RS at 650 lb. then I should keep an open mind about the ST13.

Anyway, found an ST13, price was good and it came with some nice farkles so it came home.  Thus far I am very surprised how much I am enjoying it so it looks like this will be a good bike for me. 

Selling the Duc will be really hard because darn, that thing is gorgeous.  I just sit and look it thinking "Wow".  But, in the end function has to win over looks so for me at least the ST13 is working better.

Regards, R.

[st ryder]

Yes, a ST3 needs a steady and practised hand to get the most out of it and sometimes mechanical adjustment even if only to set the cable right. Too bad you couldn't get the feel for its responsiveness and gave up so soon, because riding it feels as sexy as it looks when you get the hang of it. Good luck with the ST13.  

[Windblown]

Selling the Duc will be really hard because darn, that thing is gorgeous.  I just sit and look it thinking "Wow". 

Sounds like a canidate for a wall sculpture in the living room then.  

Condolances on not getting along with the ST3. Enjoy the ST1300!