ABS--do you feel a lot more confidence?

[GooseMan]

I'm just wondering if you experienced riders who now have ABS notice a big difference compared with non-ABS bikes. I'm a complete n00b still, but I think I'd like to have a bike with ABS on my next bike. Obviously, I'd like to master non-ABS braking, but do you find ABS to be a lifesaver?

Can you pretty much SQUEEZE the brakes as hard as you can and come to a nice, quick stop (obviously, while upright!)? What is your take on them?

[kevin_stevens]

Yes, but that's not the biggest advantage to me.  The *biggest* advantage is that you can practice true threshold braking on a daily basis without falling over.  The next advantage is that you can brake harder over varying surfaces (like a crossing line or oil patch) without locking the wheel.  The third advantage is the one you mention.

KeS

[mike goodwin]

Personally i am very glad to see some manufacturers offering it on their bikes especially bikes aimed at less experienced riders.
I like ABS brakes.
But i dont like bleeding them once air has gotten into the system.
That is a PIA without a pneumatic pump and a compressor.

[Lawn Dart]

Hi Goose,

Good questions on ABS bikes.  The truth of the matter is that a bike with ABS will feel and behave exactly the same as a similar non-ABS bike right up until that exact moment that ABS kicks in.  ABS does not allow you to brake any harder or stop any faster - A 320mm dual disc Brembo system will only allow "X%" of braking power - doesn't matter if there is an ABS system strapped to the bike or otherwise.

In fact, in over 30,000 miles of ABS bike riding I don't even notice the ABS at all.  The reason is simple:  I don't brake hard enough to activate the ABS on the street.  IMO, if you need to use more than 75% braking force for any normal street riding then you are going wayyyy to fast.

So, if I don't use my brakes that hard, then what good is it to have ABS?

As Kevin pointed out, it allows you to experiment with maximum threshold braking practice with increased safety.  To truly practice braking one must have confidence that they can truly achieve maximal braking power - but if you try that on a non-abs bike there is very high likelihood that you can lock a front wheel and crash.

The real advantage to me, is that ABS is nothing more than a bit of a safety net.  It helps with oil at stoplights, gravel in the road, cars jumping in front of you.  If you are a total wank you can crash an ABS bike just as easily as a non-abs bike.  It's simply another tool.

[Cpl Punishment]

A disadvantage is those ABS systems that kick in a wee bit too eearly.

[kevin_stevens]

A disadvantage is those ABS systems that kick in a wee bit too eearly.

Which would those be?  They don't kick in until the wheel is slipping, how much longer do you want to wait?

KeS

[Ant]

Which would those be?  They don't kick in until the wheel is slipping, how much longer do you want to wait?

KeS

I think he means the ones that kick in before the lock-up point rather than after the wheel is slipping. I've driven a couple of cars that suffered from this and it is extremely disconcerting. I drove the same car without ABS enabled first and got used to the braking point, then turned it on and was amazed at how conservative it was!

As for bikes, I think I like having the safety net on my bike - I've never had it kick in but I've never had a second thought about braking (because of surface or something) when I've needed to. I still practice "safe" braking and use non-abs techniques, I just know that if everything goes to shit and there is diesel on the road or something then I can still be on the anchors slowing down

[kevin_stevens]

I think he means the ones that kick in before the lock-up point rather than after the wheel is slipping. I've driven a couple of cars that suffered from this and it is extremely disconcerting. I drove the same car without ABS enabled first and got used to the braking point, then turned it on and was amazed at how conservative it was!

As for bikes, I think I like having the safety net on my bike - I've never had it kick in but I've never had a second thought about braking (because of surface or something) when I've needed to. I still practice "safe" braking and use non-abs techniques, I just know that if everything goes to shit and there is diesel on the road or something then I can still be on the anchors slowing down

AFAIK there isn't any such thing.  All the ABS systems I know of determine wheel slippage vs the other tires.  Now...  there are systems that allow a certain amount of slippage - up to 10% or so is actually optimal, just as the same amount of lateral tire drift gives the optimum lateral acceleration, before the tire actually starts to slide.  Again AFAIK none of the bike systems do this, at least intentionally.

What people DO do, when they are not used to ABS systems, is tend to yank the brakes on suddenly, rather than squeeze.  Doing this will cause the front tire to lose traction because the weight hasn't transferred yet.  The *perception* can be that the ABS has kicked in prematurely - the *reality* is that the rider has overbraked in a way that they wouldn't have attempted without ABS - and ABS has saved them from the consequences.  I used to do this just as a game/experiment, to see how fast the weight actually transferred and I could get to full braking (it's about half a second).

KeS

[cbsnbiker]

I'm just wondering if you experienced riders who now have ABS notice a big difference compared with non-ABS bikes. I'm a complete n00b still, but I think I'd like to have a bike with ABS on my next bike. Obviously, I'd like to master non-ABS braking, but do you find ABS to be a lifesaver?

Can you pretty much SQUEEZE the brakes as hard as you can and come to a nice, quick stop (obviously, while upright!)? What is your take on them?

Just to reinforce some of the info you've received....

For the most part, you will notice no difference between an ABS and a non-ABS-equipped motorcycle, especially in routine braking.

It's only if one or both wheels lose traction while braking in a straight line, whether due to low traction or too-firm braking (or both) that ABS will kick in.

How to brake with an ABS-equipped bike? Pretty much the same as with a non-ABS bike. The main difference is that you can explore threshold braking with a safety net (as someone else pointed out), and be protected from braking errors or slick conditions.

It is possible to just "SQUEEZE the brakes as hard as you can" in a straight line stop, but it is not optimal.

[Clive]

Honestly, I don't consciously think about the ABS at all.  Maybe in some primitive part of my brain, something remember we have ABS aboard ... but it has no impact on my day-to-day riding.

I'm beginning to wonder, though, if I shouldn't start using the brakes in bad-traction conditions as though I DID have ABS ... instead of riding the old-fashioned way.

[cworley5150]

What people DO do, when they are not used to ABS systems, is tend to yank the brakes on suddenly, rather than squeeze.  Doing this will cause the front tire to lose traction because the weight hasn't transferred yet.  The *perception* can be that the ABS has kicked in prematurely - the *reality* is that the rider has overbraked in a way that they wouldn't have attempted without ABS - and ABS has saved them from the consequences.  I used to do this just as a game/experiment, to see how fast the weight actually transferred and I could get to full braking (it's about half a second).

KeS

I have noticed through screwing around with the ABS on the BMW when I first got it that the system compensates for the time it takes for the weight to transfer.  You can yank the grip very suddenly and feel the system brake a little softer at first then full braking takes place.  I would say it is less than a half of a second.  Maybe .2 seconds.  

In day to day riding, I never even now the bike has ABS.  There have been times on gravel roads that I have had it kick in on the rear.  I normally don't ride gravel that often though.  

[hawkeyejohn14]

I love the ABS on my 04 BMW R1100S, the tire actually locks for a fration of a second before it kicks in. For street riding it works really well, especially for the surprises the cars give us, I am more likely to grab all the brakes I can with the trust I will stop in time or take enough speed off to dodge the situation.

I dislike ABS on gravel, and I hear it stinks on the track, so I like the on /off ability of the new systems on the GS, R12S, ST3.

[basco]

Gravel shouldn't happen at the track. I thnk.  

[bizarro]

Only noticed it once on the R1150GS I had for a while. I didn't like the sensation of the brakes not doing what I was telling them to do. Had I kept the bike (I parted ways with it for numerous reasons) I'm sure I would have gotten used to it. But it didn't make me feel any safer. I'm happy enough with kick ass regular brakes.

[county]

I think he means the ones that kick in before the lock-up point rather than after the wheel is slipping.

What?  How does that system know what's just before lock-up?  More info please.

[Beatkiddo]

The sensor on the wheel detects "abnormal slowing rate" and kicks the ABS in.

I was not certain how I would like it, but came in REAL HANDY the other day.  I was doing the 55 speed limit on a road that has some nice sweepers, and not too heavily driven.  I come around one and just beyond the apex in a spot hidden was a semi across both lanes.  Even grabbing a big handful of both brake, in the middle of the turn, she was able to stop without coming out from under me in the lean.  I think that if I had not had ABS, I would have been up under the truck or in the fence on the side of the road.

[Ant]

What?  How does that system know what's just before lock-up?  More info please.

Sorry, it wasn't really applicable to this discussion since it didn't relate to motorbike ABS systems. There was an system in a prototype car I was working with that sometimes second guessed your slamming the brakes on (theoretically to avoid the issue of the sudden weight transfer causing tyre slipping) however it produced a weird sensation when yanking on the brakes in circumstances that wouldn't normally lock up the wheels. It sounds similar to what cworley5150 says is on the BMW he had but much much much less refined - it was after all a prototype! It also detects what it figures should happen to the wheel as it is slowing the vehicle and what it actually sees happening to the wheel. I'm an electronics/software guy, not a mechanical dynamics guy - thats as far as my knowledge goes  

[Lon]

I'm just wondering if you experienced riders who now have ABS notice a big difference compared with non-ABS bikes. I'm a complete n00b still, but I think I'd like to have a bike with ABS on my next bike. Obviously, I'd like to master non-ABS braking, but do you find ABS to be a lifesaver?

You can - and should - master non-ABS braking on bikes with ABS.  Try to brake as fast as you can w/o ABS kicking in - it's *very* fast; more than fast enough for the real world.  ABS, like anything, is a tool.  It's there to help you.  Like anything, it can also fail.

You should read this:

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

Real-world tests.  Same bikes with and without ABS.  Good stuff.

Can you pretty much SQUEEZE the brakes as hard as you can and come to a nice, quick stop (obviously, while upright!)? What is your take on them?

Yes.  The only thing I caution you on is that you stop at a computer-controlled rate which isn't controlled by your hand when ABS engages.  So, it can make it difficult to time exactly when you will be stopped in order to put your foot down.

So, in addition to non-ABS hard stops, you also need to practice FULL ABS stops if you have a bike with ABS to get yourself used to what it does and how it behaves.  It's not hard.

[Lon]

What?  How does that system know what's just before lock-up?  More info please.

Just an example: When a wheel slows to 150RPM from 300RPM in 1/100th of a second (IIRC, the sample-rate of the ABS computer on BMWs?), it's locking up.

edit:

I guess that doesn't answer the question fully... Hrm.  The tire's also slipping at that point, but the tire's not *yet* locked.

Also - 330 checks/sec on BMWs; and the above link explains how ABS can predict wheel lockup better than I did.

[Snowbird]

I've never been a fan of ABS on motorcycles and owning an ABS equipped motorcycle has done nothing to change my mind. First off, mishaps where ABS might've "made a difference" exist mostly in the dark, confidence-lacking corners of riders' minds. ABS will do NOTHING for you in the overwhelming majority of situations that result in accidents, such as riding off the edge of the road in a single-vehicle crash.

Unless you plan on commuting in traffic in all sorts of weather, I would not let the presence or absence of ABS influence your choice of bike. It's way more important to buy a bike you like and that fits you well in all respects.

If you belong on an SV650, but buy an FJR because it has ABS, you are making bad decision regarding safety, as one example.