ABS--do you feel a lot more confidence?

[GooseMan]

I'm just wondering if you experienced riders who now have ABS notice a big difference compared with non-ABS bikes. I'm a complete n00b still, but I think I'd like to have a bike with ABS on my next bike. Obviously, I'd like to master non-ABS braking, but do you find ABS to be a lifesaver?

Can you pretty much SQUEEZE the brakes as hard as you can and come to a nice, quick stop (obviously, while upright!)? What is your take on them?

[kevin_stevens]

Yes, but that's not the biggest advantage to me.  The *biggest* advantage is that you can practice true threshold braking on a daily basis without falling over.  The next advantage is that you can brake harder over varying surfaces (like a crossing line or oil patch) without locking the wheel.  The third advantage is the one you mention.

KeS

[mike goodwin]

Personally i am very glad to see some manufacturers offering it on their bikes especially bikes aimed at less experienced riders.
I like ABS brakes.
But i dont like bleeding them once air has gotten into the system.
That is a PIA without a pneumatic pump and a compressor.

[Lawn Dart]

Hi Goose,

Good questions on ABS bikes.  The truth of the matter is that a bike with ABS will feel and behave exactly the same as a similar non-ABS bike right up until that exact moment that ABS kicks in.  ABS does not allow you to brake any harder or stop any faster - A 320mm dual disc Brembo system will only allow "X%" of braking power - doesn't matter if there is an ABS system strapped to the bike or otherwise.

In fact, in over 30,000 miles of ABS bike riding I don't even notice the ABS at all.  The reason is simple:  I don't brake hard enough to activate the ABS on the street.  IMO, if you need to use more than 75% braking force for any normal street riding then you are going wayyyy to fast.

So, if I don't use my brakes that hard, then what good is it to have ABS?

As Kevin pointed out, it allows you to experiment with maximum threshold braking practice with increased safety.  To truly practice braking one must have confidence that they can truly achieve maximal braking power - but if you try that on a non-abs bike there is very high likelihood that you can lock a front wheel and crash.

The real advantage to me, is that ABS is nothing more than a bit of a safety net.  It helps with oil at stoplights, gravel in the road, cars jumping in front of you.  If you are a total wank you can crash an ABS bike just as easily as a non-abs bike.  It's simply another tool.

[Cpl Punishment]

A disadvantage is those ABS systems that kick in a wee bit too eearly.

[kevin_stevens]

A disadvantage is those ABS systems that kick in a wee bit too eearly.

Which would those be?  They don't kick in until the wheel is slipping, how much longer do you want to wait?

KeS

[Ant]

Which would those be?  They don't kick in until the wheel is slipping, how much longer do you want to wait?

KeS

I think he means the ones that kick in before the lock-up point rather than after the wheel is slipping. I've driven a couple of cars that suffered from this and it is extremely disconcerting. I drove the same car without ABS enabled first and got used to the braking point, then turned it on and was amazed at how conservative it was!

As for bikes, I think I like having the safety net on my bike - I've never had it kick in but I've never had a second thought about braking (because of surface or something) when I've needed to. I still practice "safe" braking and use non-abs techniques, I just know that if everything goes to shit and there is diesel on the road or something then I can still be on the anchors slowing down

[kevin_stevens]

I think he means the ones that kick in before the lock-up point rather than after the wheel is slipping. I've driven a couple of cars that suffered from this and it is extremely disconcerting. I drove the same car without ABS enabled first and got used to the braking point, then turned it on and was amazed at how conservative it was!

As for bikes, I think I like having the safety net on my bike - I've never had it kick in but I've never had a second thought about braking (because of surface or something) when I've needed to. I still practice "safe" braking and use non-abs techniques, I just know that if everything goes to shit and there is diesel on the road or something then I can still be on the anchors slowing down

AFAIK there isn't any such thing.  All the ABS systems I know of determine wheel slippage vs the other tires.  Now...  there are systems that allow a certain amount of slippage - up to 10% or so is actually optimal, just as the same amount of lateral tire drift gives the optimum lateral acceleration, before the tire actually starts to slide.  Again AFAIK none of the bike systems do this, at least intentionally.

What people DO do, when they are not used to ABS systems, is tend to yank the brakes on suddenly, rather than squeeze.  Doing this will cause the front tire to lose traction because the weight hasn't transferred yet.  The *perception* can be that the ABS has kicked in prematurely - the *reality* is that the rider has overbraked in a way that they wouldn't have attempted without ABS - and ABS has saved them from the consequences.  I used to do this just as a game/experiment, to see how fast the weight actually transferred and I could get to full braking (it's about half a second).

KeS

[cbsnbiker]

I'm just wondering if you experienced riders who now have ABS notice a big difference compared with non-ABS bikes. I'm a complete n00b still, but I think I'd like to have a bike with ABS on my next bike. Obviously, I'd like to master non-ABS braking, but do you find ABS to be a lifesaver?

Can you pretty much SQUEEZE the brakes as hard as you can and come to a nice, quick stop (obviously, while upright!)? What is your take on them?

Just to reinforce some of the info you've received....

For the most part, you will notice no difference between an ABS and a non-ABS-equipped motorcycle, especially in routine braking.

It's only if one or both wheels lose traction while braking in a straight line, whether due to low traction or too-firm braking (or both) that ABS will kick in.

How to brake with an ABS-equipped bike? Pretty much the same as with a non-ABS bike. The main difference is that you can explore threshold braking with a safety net (as someone else pointed out), and be protected from braking errors or slick conditions.

It is possible to just "SQUEEZE the brakes as hard as you can" in a straight line stop, but it is not optimal.

[Clive]

Honestly, I don't consciously think about the ABS at all.  Maybe in some primitive part of my brain, something remember we have ABS aboard ... but it has no impact on my day-to-day riding.

I'm beginning to wonder, though, if I shouldn't start using the brakes in bad-traction conditions as though I DID have ABS ... instead of riding the old-fashioned way.

[cworley5150]

What people DO do, when they are not used to ABS systems, is tend to yank the brakes on suddenly, rather than squeeze.  Doing this will cause the front tire to lose traction because the weight hasn't transferred yet.  The *perception* can be that the ABS has kicked in prematurely - the *reality* is that the rider has overbraked in a way that they wouldn't have attempted without ABS - and ABS has saved them from the consequences.  I used to do this just as a game/experiment, to see how fast the weight actually transferred and I could get to full braking (it's about half a second).

KeS

I have noticed through screwing around with the ABS on the BMW when I first got it that the system compensates for the time it takes for the weight to transfer.  You can yank the grip very suddenly and feel the system brake a little softer at first then full braking takes place.  I would say it is less than a half of a second.  Maybe .2 seconds.  

In day to day riding, I never even now the bike has ABS.  There have been times on gravel roads that I have had it kick in on the rear.  I normally don't ride gravel that often though.  

[hawkeyejohn14]

I love the ABS on my 04 BMW R1100S, the tire actually locks for a fration of a second before it kicks in. For street riding it works really well, especially for the surprises the cars give us, I am more likely to grab all the brakes I can with the trust I will stop in time or take enough speed off to dodge the situation.

I dislike ABS on gravel, and I hear it stinks on the track, so I like the on /off ability of the new systems on the GS, R12S, ST3.

[basco]

Gravel shouldn't happen at the track. I thnk.  

[bizarro]

Only noticed it once on the R1150GS I had for a while. I didn't like the sensation of the brakes not doing what I was telling them to do. Had I kept the bike (I parted ways with it for numerous reasons) I'm sure I would have gotten used to it. But it didn't make me feel any safer. I'm happy enough with kick ass regular brakes.

[county]

I think he means the ones that kick in before the lock-up point rather than after the wheel is slipping.

What?  How does that system know what's just before lock-up?  More info please.

[Beatkiddo]

The sensor on the wheel detects "abnormal slowing rate" and kicks the ABS in.

I was not certain how I would like it, but came in REAL HANDY the other day.  I was doing the 55 speed limit on a road that has some nice sweepers, and not too heavily driven.  I come around one and just beyond the apex in a spot hidden was a semi across both lanes.  Even grabbing a big handful of both brake, in the middle of the turn, she was able to stop without coming out from under me in the lean.  I think that if I had not had ABS, I would have been up under the truck or in the fence on the side of the road.

[Ant]

What?  How does that system know what's just before lock-up?  More info please.

Sorry, it wasn't really applicable to this discussion since it didn't relate to motorbike ABS systems. There was an system in a prototype car I was working with that sometimes second guessed your slamming the brakes on (theoretically to avoid the issue of the sudden weight transfer causing tyre slipping) however it produced a weird sensation when yanking on the brakes in circumstances that wouldn't normally lock up the wheels. It sounds similar to what cworley5150 says is on the BMW he had but much much much less refined - it was after all a prototype! It also detects what it figures should happen to the wheel as it is slowing the vehicle and what it actually sees happening to the wheel. I'm an electronics/software guy, not a mechanical dynamics guy - thats as far as my knowledge goes  

[Lon]

I'm just wondering if you experienced riders who now have ABS notice a big difference compared with non-ABS bikes. I'm a complete n00b still, but I think I'd like to have a bike with ABS on my next bike. Obviously, I'd like to master non-ABS braking, but do you find ABS to be a lifesaver?

You can - and should - master non-ABS braking on bikes with ABS.  Try to brake as fast as you can w/o ABS kicking in - it's *very* fast; more than fast enough for the real world.  ABS, like anything, is a tool.  It's there to help you.  Like anything, it can also fail.

You should read this:

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

Real-world tests.  Same bikes with and without ABS.  Good stuff.

Can you pretty much SQUEEZE the brakes as hard as you can and come to a nice, quick stop (obviously, while upright!)? What is your take on them?

Yes.  The only thing I caution you on is that you stop at a computer-controlled rate which isn't controlled by your hand when ABS engages.  So, it can make it difficult to time exactly when you will be stopped in order to put your foot down.

So, in addition to non-ABS hard stops, you also need to practice FULL ABS stops if you have a bike with ABS to get yourself used to what it does and how it behaves.  It's not hard.

[Lon]

What?  How does that system know what's just before lock-up?  More info please.

Just an example: When a wheel slows to 150RPM from 300RPM in 1/100th of a second (IIRC, the sample-rate of the ABS computer on BMWs?), it's locking up.

edit:

I guess that doesn't answer the question fully... Hrm.  The tire's also slipping at that point, but the tire's not *yet* locked.

Also - 330 checks/sec on BMWs; and the above link explains how ABS can predict wheel lockup better than I did.

[Snowbird]

I've never been a fan of ABS on motorcycles and owning an ABS equipped motorcycle has done nothing to change my mind. First off, mishaps where ABS might've "made a difference" exist mostly in the dark, confidence-lacking corners of riders' minds. ABS will do NOTHING for you in the overwhelming majority of situations that result in accidents, such as riding off the edge of the road in a single-vehicle crash.

Unless you plan on commuting in traffic in all sorts of weather, I would not let the presence or absence of ABS influence your choice of bike. It's way more important to buy a bike you like and that fits you well in all respects.

If you belong on an SV650, but buy an FJR because it has ABS, you are making bad decision regarding safety, as one example.

[Lon]

If you belong on an SV650, but buy an FJR because it has ABS, you are making bad decision regarding safety, as one example.

But you can get an SV650 with ABS now...

(Sorry, I *had* to.)

http://suzukicycles.com/Products/SV650SAK7/Default.aspx
http://suzukicycles.com/Products/SV650AK7/Default.aspx

[cbsnbiker]

I've never been a fan of ABS on motorcycles and owning an ABS equipped motorcycle has done nothing to change my mind. First off, mishaps where ABS might've "made a difference" exist mostly in the dark, confidence-lacking corners of riders' minds. ABS will do NOTHING for you in the overwhelming majority of situations that result in accidents, such as riding off the edge of the road in a single-vehicle crash.

According to the Hurt Report, a major factor in single-vehicle crashes is improper braking before a turn. This braking is often characterized by overuse of the rear brake thus inducing rear wheel lockup, and underuse of the front brake. This is a major factor causing riders to ride off the road in a turn.

In a scenario such as this, ABS can assist the rider by preventing the rear brake from locking, so that the rider can retain control of the motorcycle when entering the turn.

Of course, proper braking is better still, but is not always achieved in the real world.

To say that ABS isn't useful because it doesn't help with many crash scenarios does not correlate with the benefits that ABS can offer in many crash scenarios. To say that ABS isn't useful because it doesn't help with crash scenarios that don't involve locked brakes is irrelevant.

[kevin_stevens]

I've never been a fan of ABS on motorcycles and owning an ABS equipped motorcycle has done nothing to change my mind. First off, mishaps where ABS might've "made a difference" exist mostly in the dark, confidence-lacking corners of riders' minds. ABS will do NOTHING for you in the overwhelming majority of situations that result in accidents, such as riding off the edge of the road in a single-vehicle crash.

Of course, neither will non-ABS brakes.  Great example.

KeS

[Antonv]

I must agree with Snowbird, I have had two bikes with ABS and personally I believe it's a solution to a nonexistent problem. Unlike on cars the ABS is not accompanied by traction control and I don't think it's going to help you if you hit an oil patch. The best thing with an oil patch is not to use your front brake at all. What I disliked most about the feel of ABS is that you don't get the same 'feedback' from your disks that you get from a braking system without ABS. The only time I ever felt the ABS work was on a gravel road and it didn't actually help me at all. So for me, any confidence from having ABS is purely in the mind.
     

 

[Snowbird]

it's a solution to a nonexistent problem.

Exactly. If you cannot control the brakes on a motorcycle, you should stick to 4 wheels.

Of course, neither will non-ABS brakes.  Great example.

I suppose you think that's a clever retort, but it simply does nothing.

This braking is often characterized by overuse of the rear brake thus inducing rear wheel lockup, and underuse of the front brake. This is a major factor causing riders to ride off the road in a turn.

Um... so link the brakes... but linked brakes suck, too. Again, if you cannot wrap your mind around the way a motorcycle is controlled, stick to 4 wheels.

[Clive]

Exactly. If you cannot control the brakes on a motorcycle, you should stick to 4 wheels....

Um... so link the brakes... but linked brakes suck, too. Again, if you cannot wrap your mind around the way a motorcycle is controlled, stick to 4 wheels.

Snowbird, obviously you'd have been an outlier in the Hurt study.  But the fact that ABS isn't the best option for you doesn't mean ABS is a bad option for everyone.  The Hurt study says otherwise.

ABS doesn't have to solve all problems and prevent all accidents.  If it helps a rider with one of the major factors contributing to single-vehicle accidents, then it helps that rider.  Your mileage clearly varies.  But it's your mileage, just as mine is only mine.

[Snowbird]

Snowbird, obviously you'd have been an outlier in the Hurt study.  But the fact that ABS isn't the best option for you doesn't mean ABS is a bad option for everyone.  The Hurt study says otherwise.

ABS doesn't have to solve all problems and prevent all accidents.  If it helps a rider with one of the major factors contributing to single-vehicle accidents, then it helps that rider.  Your mileage clearly varies.  But it's your mileage, just as mine is only mine.

Never did I suggest ABS does not have it's place. I sed:

Unless you plan on commuting in traffic in all sorts of weather, I would not let the presence or absence of ABS influence your choice of bike.

And, yes, I suppose motorcycle designers do have to make way for the club-footed. They will, after all, buy motorcycles.  

And, for the record, ABS DOES NOT "help a rider with one of the major factors contributing to single-vehicle accidents." The view previously posted was a distortion of the Hurt study; misapplication of the brakes is the problem. Get over it. ABS solves little if anything and complicates and adds weight and expense.

[Lon]

And, for the record, ABS DOES NOT "help a rider with one of the major factors contributing to single-vehicle accidents." The view previously posted was a distortion of the Hurt study; misapplication of the brakes is the problem.

You're correct, but I think you are also being overly pedantic in making your point here...
* Locking a wheel is misapplication of the brakes.
* ABS is not a solution to that problem, and it is not a substitute for good braking technique.
* It is, however, a workaround that can save a rider's hide hide if the rider finds that he/she has already screwed up.

ABS can and does prevent crashes due to wheel lockup caused by misapplication of the brakes.  It does not eliminate the root problem, nor can it prevent all crashes due to this.  A rider can solve most (if not all) of the root problem by learning correct braking.  This, is, of course, why I tell everyone to learn proper braking technique.

ABS has kicked in for me on the street exactly twice as of right now: Once while commuting (yay, cars!), and once while riding in inclement weather.  I've never had it come on in any other panic situation.  In both cases, I'm thankful it was there.

I also evaluated each situation as though I had just crashed, even though I didn't (and might not have even without ABS).

There are other "band-aid" designs in motorcycling, too:
* Slipper clutches prevent loss of traction when entering corners and downshifting - however, good riders could rev the engine to the exact RPM to attain the same benefit.  Incorrect throttle control is the real problem; and slipper clutches are the band-aid.
* BMW's stability control (traction control?) prevents loss of traction from too much gas while leaned over (among other things); another thing which can be solved by correct throttle control.

These don't solve anything either - they patch things up after the rider has already screwed up.

[Snowbird]

There are other "band-aid" designs in motorcycling, too:

Ok....

* Slipper clutches prevent loss of traction when entering corners and downshifting - however, good riders could rev the engine to the exact RPM to attain the same benefit.  Incorrect throttle control is the real problem; and slipper clutches are the band-aid.

Slipper clutches good.   

* BMW's stability control (traction control?) prevents loss of traction from too much gas while leaned over (among other things); another thing which can be solved by correct throttle control.

Stability control / traction control bad.   

Just my opinions... now back to topic. Ruse foiled.

[cbsnbiker]

I have had two bikes with ABS and personally I believe it's a solution to a nonexistent problem.

Crashes resulting from locked brakes is a nonexistent problem?    

Unlike on cars the ABS is not accompanied by traction control

That's coming, or maybe even here. One example: http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/bikes/bike.jsp?b=r1200r

Even so, what about that do you find significant?

And how does this correlate to cars that have ABS but no traction control?  

and I don't think it's going to help you if you hit an oil patch.

That also confuses me. If ABS won't help in such an extreme low-traction stopping situation, then you're likely to crash anyway. If it does help,  . If it could help but your bike is not so equipped, oh, well.  

ABS will help in many other situations. Or do you disagree with this as well?  

What I disliked most about the feel of ABS is that you don't get the same 'feedback' from your disks that you get from a braking system without ABS. The only time I ever felt the ABS work was on a gravel road and it didn't actually help me at all. So for me, any confidence from having ABS is purely in the mind.
    

Hmmm. I've owned two bikes with ABS, I've ridden many others, and have had various opportunities to ride examples of the same model both with and without ABS. I've never noticed any difference in feel between ABS-equipped and non-ABS-equipped bikes, at least until and unless the ABS feature engages.

No, that's not true. There's one huge exception: recent-model BMWs (ending in '05, inclusive) with servo brakes have an enormous difference in feel compared to the same model and year bikes equipped with non-servo (and non-ABS) brakes. But it's not the ABS that gives a different feel, it's the servos.

There are certain models that allow the rider to turn off ABS for use in riding situations such as dirt roads and for track use. The BMW GS models come immediately to mind.

Exactly. If you cannot control the brakes on a motorcycle, you should stick to 4 wheels.

I certainly espouse the use of proper braking technique. Heck, it's my profession to help people develop those skills.  

Even so, don't you think that your statement is a tad elitist?

There are many braking situations that even an expert would find challenging. A beginner, a novice, a rider of modest or even average skills, might find that having ABS makes the difference between crashing or not crashing.

Furthermore, nobody is perfect at every single moment of his life. At least most of us aren't; I can't speak for you.   People make mistakes. People encounter unforeseen or hidden hazards. Is it wise to deny a rider a safety feature? Or oneself?  

And, for the record, ABS DOES NOT "help a rider with one of the major factors contributing to single-vehicle accidents." The view previously posted was a distortion of the Hurt study; misapplication of the brakes is the problem. Get over it.

Now you have me really confused.

With which part do you disagree?  

• Misapplication of brakes is a major factor in motorcycle crashes?
• ABS is a tool that can help prevent wheel lockup in straight-line braking situations?

ABS solves little if anything and complicates and adds weight and expense.

ABS is a tool. It does a limited job, and it does it pretty well. Modern systems weigh little; the newest BMW one is something like 3 lbs. Modern versions add less cost to the bike than I spent on my most recent helmet.

It's one thing to say that you don't want it. That's your choice. But to say that ABS doesn't work, or that it's not worthwhile? I don't see how arguments against it add up.

[andmoon]

For me it isn't at the traction limits where abs helps most but upon initial application of the brakes.  There is no need to feel for the limits so you can grab full brake from point 1.  A lot of distance gets covered before the tires get to their traction limits, with abs I can get to that limit almost instantly.

[gradus]

Unless you plan on commuting in traffic in all sorts of weather, I would not let the presence or absence of ABS influence your choice of bike. It's way more important to buy a bike you like and that fits you well in all respects.

Or if you spend any time touring.  Almost every trip I take to the mountains of NC, TN, GA and VA include rain at some point, even if 90% of the trip is dry roads.

Years ago I was in a hurry, driving too fast and needed to brake quickly on a wet road.  Hit a bump in the road at the same time, front wheel locked and the bike went down.  Wouldn't have gone down with ABS.  Would have been a nice safety feature to correct my dumb single bike accident.  

[kam]

I'll answer the original question with the fact that I had an R1100S w/abs and now have a 1200GS without.  It's really up to you...personally.  

Can ABS save you?  Of course, you just need to make the decision as to how important it is...just like how important tire pressure or treadwear are.  If you are willing to spend a little extra, and it happens to come on the particular bike you have decided on...then go for it, but there are other drawbacks, such as increased complexity/cost of maintenance.  

[Cpl Punishment]

Interesting test in this week's MCN, between a Honda Hornet (ABS), Suzuki Burgman scooter thingy and a Piaggio MP3...the Burgman won on braking every time. Cause the Honda's ABS kept cutting in too early. The MP3 was capable of the most magnificent stoppies ever, though. Not bad for a scooter-trike.

[1moreroad]

ABS--do you feel a lot more confidence?

This isn't the question you ask in the post.  If they do make you feel more confident, then you probably shouldn't get them since they only help in some situations.  Risk Homeostasis says that you will ride more aggressively/faster with them if you think they'll help you out in a crash.

At a motorcycle conference last year (Andy Goldfine presented some stuff, can't remember which conference), some braking tests reported showed that linked brakes produce longer stopping distances.

In a scenario such as this, ABS can assist the rider by preventing the rear brake from locking, so that the rider can retain control of the motorcycle when entering the turn.

Of course, proper braking is better still, but is not always achieved in the real world.

You're right, but this is bass-ackwards.  "People don't know how to actually ride a motorcycle so we'll give them a crutch which will be better than what they're doing now but not as good as simply learning how to ride properly."  It's the automobile-ization of motorcycles.  Why worry about crashing when you have 16 airbags and pre-tensioners and all this other neat sounding safety crap around you?

[Clive]

You're right, but this is bass-ackwards.  "People don't know how to actually ride a motorcycle so we'll give them a crutch which will be better than what they're doing now but not as good as simply learning how to ride properly."  It's the automobile-ization of motorcycles.  Why worry about crashing when you have 16 airbags and pre-tensioners and all this other neat sounding safety crap around you?

But some segment of that population will learn the lesson by going too far over the line and crashing.  You're OK with that; others apparently are not.

ABS brakes are like insurance or my first-aid kit to me: I hope I never use it, but it's sure as hell nice to have there if/when I DO need it.  

[1moreroad]

But some segment of that population will learn the lesson by going too far over the line and crashing.  You're OK with that; others apparently are not.

No, I'm not okay with it.  I'm frustrated with it.  I don't want anyone to get hurt.  But there is mounting evidence that the more we try to protect people, the more they adjust to it and continue to hurt themselves.  This is the risk homeostasis theory in action.

The most straightforward solution would be more training.  It sounds easier to just buy another gadget, but spending the hours training (CSS, CLASS, ERC, etc., etc.) should be the first route a rider interested in improving safety should take.  I average a day or two a year doing training.  I go out to a small industrial park after hours and practice threshold braking.  This is the better approach over simply buying a new V-strom or VFR with ABS and saying, don't have to worry about it anymore!

[kevin_stevens]

No, I'm not okay with it.  I'm frustrated with it.  I don't want anyone to get hurt.  But there is mounting evidence that the more we try to protect people, the more they adjust to it and continue to hurt themselves.  This is the risk homeostasis theory in action.

The most straightforward solution would be more training.  It sounds easier to just buy another gadget, but spending the hours training (CSS, CLASS, ERC, etc., etc.) should be the first route a rider interested in improving safety should take.  I average a day or two a year doing training.  I go out to a small industrial park after hours and practice threshold braking.  This is the better approach over simply buying a new V-strom or VFR with ABS and saying, don't have to worry about it anymore!

That's funny - I've been in three ERC classes in the last year - none of them taught threshold braking.  They taught "quck stops", focusing on getting the bars straight and squeezing both brakes, with no instruction or reference to handling maximum braking or wheel lockup other than "don't lock the wheels".

During the same period, I averaged about 200 days a year practicing threshold braking, on my K1200RS with ABS.  I was able to do it as part of regular riding over various surfaces, because I didn't have to accept the risk of locking a front wheel and falling in traffic.

In fact, I've never heard *anyone* say they buy a bike with ABS and "just don't worry about it anymore".  I've seen lots of posts from people who say they have ABS but it has never actuated except on gravel (meaning they are either perfect threshold brakers, or they never threshold brake); and a small number of posts from people like myself who use it as an active aid to practicing and maintaining maximum braking ability.

KeS

[Sport]

I got into a position on Saturday along the Merced river where I had to panic brake and was worried I'd lock the front.  What happened was the rear locked up off and on as I modulated the pedal.  As the front dives under hard braking, the rear lightens up making it very easy to lock it up.  I almost hit the SUV in front of me, stopping just a few inches from his bumper.  With ABS I believe I could have stopped sooner and not had to worry about brake lockup.

[1moreroad]

During the same period, I averaged about 200 days a year practicing threshold braking, on my K1200RS with ABS.  I was able to do it as part of regular riding over various surfaces, because I didn't have to accept the risk of locking a front wheel and falling in traffic.

Kevin, you are the exception.  If all drivers (me included, because 200 days is 4 days every week) practiced like you, the accident rate would decline.

Are you practicing in traffic?  Are you saying that you have to threshold brake almost every workday of the week?  I remember a Motorcyclist article claiming that the author activated ABS every single day he commuted.    I don't have it, but I've been in maximum braking situations 3 or 4 times in 5 years of commuting on Los Angeles freeways 3 - 4 days a week.

EDITED TO ADD: Kevin, you're not saying that you have to threshold brake on average 4 days a week while commuting are you?

[kevin_stevens]

Kevin, you are the exception.  If all drivers (me included, because 200 days is 4 days every week) practiced like you, the accident rate would decline.

Are you practicing in traffic?  Are you saying that you have to threshold brake almost every workday of the week?  I remember a Motorcyclist article claiming that the author activated ABS every single day he commuted.    I don't have it, but I've been in maximum braking situations 3 or 4 times in 5 years of commuting on Los Angeles freeways 3 - 4 days a week.

EDITED TO ADD: Kevin, you're not saying that you have to threshold brake on average 4 days a week while commuting are you?

No, not have to.  Have the opportunity to.  I would generally find the opportunity (red light or stop sign with nobody in front of or coming up behind me), and perform a full on, how-short-of-my-mark emergency stop at least once or twice a day.  If I did it right, I didn't get into ABS - but without overshooting once in awhile, how do you know?  It improved my braking on my non-ABS bikes as well, both in terms of initial rate and tire feel.

Now I don't have an ABS bike, and while I still do quick stops, they aren't emergency/threshold - because I'm not willing to take the risk of doing those on the street without ABS.  Reality is that if you want to practice stopping the bike as hard as you/it can; you're going to go over that limit.  While it isn't guaranteed that you'll drop the bike if you lock the front wheel, I'm not good enough to accept that level of risk in order to practice regularly.  So the difference in ABS/non-ABS, for ME is about 190 fewer threshold-braking practice events per year.  I think that's a considerable disadvantage.

KeS

[Snowbird]

It's the automobile-ization of motorcycles.  Why worry about crashing when you have 16 airbags and pre-tensioners and all this other neat sounding safety crap around you?

 

I know one thing not exactly related to ABS, but more regarding the overall design of motorcycles: my Futura will out stop my FJR even with it's 300mm rotors, while the FJR's are 320's... (and ABS). That's the effect of the extra 150 pounds.

[Busy Little Whiner]

 What is your take on them?

After 44 years of riding and racing... what still troubles me about ABS is dead weight and the fact it's
present 100% of the time...  ain't no way to shed the pounds... and when dead weight is attached to
my wheels the affects are mostly negative... negative heavy steering... negative slower turn in
response... negative slower suspension action... negative longer braking distances...  and the more
negatives my bike carries the less positive the trip... for me ABS weight spells trouble safely navigating
the bendy bits not to mention panic stops...


But if you are a new rider and aren't sure you can judge available traction, speed and distance, or don't
want to think about it that much, then by all means rely on ABS. but if you wish to brake hard and still
have some skin in the game then read on...

Step 1
Sort your bike out... check tire pressures and condition, suspension settings, brake condition, then find
a smooth, straight, clean bit of road without too much camber. Do a few runs braking fairly hard to
warm the tires and get a feel for how it handles. As you line up for your first hard stop, you need to be
relaxed... If you find yourself pitching forward, grip the tank with your knees to hold your weight off the
bars...

Step 2
The initial phase is important because how you first apply the brakes determines how the bike reacts.
Your brakes are not an on/off switch. You're looking for a smooth initial application that transfers weight
on to the front tire without suddenly compressing the suspension. If you just grab on the lever, the
suspension bottoms out, and then it can't absorb any more movement. Something has to give and it's
usually the tire which may begin to break traction... So be smooth and be firm... that's the key...


Step 3
Having transferred the weight onto the front tire, you've given yourself bags of extra grip. To use it,
you need to increase the pressure on the lever progressively. On any modern Sportsbike and most all
Standards you should be able brake hard enough for the rear wheel to lift off the ground. If it starts
hopping that's because the engine is locking it up... clutch in or slipped and it should stop... This is hard
as you can brake in normal conditions. At this point, the rear brake's no use to you at all. This is not a
stoppie, by the way, that's a separate stunt...

Step 4
Once you're up to full braking effort, you still have to assess what's going in you path. If you're about
to cross a patch of oil or cross a patch of dirt, you'll want to release the lever pressure slightly, then
increase it again as the extra risk is passed. You need to be relaxed enough so that if you feel the
wheel locking, you can let lever off until it spins again, then get back up to braking pressure. The only
way to make this an instinctive reaction is to practise deliberately locking and releasing the brake... if
you don't wish to risk your prize then Keith Code has a special bike built just for you called
the Panic Brake Trainer...
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/braking-bike.php



Step 5
As you come almost to the point of stopping, you'll obviously need to actuate the clutch lever in to
avoid stalling you can do this as soon as you start to brake, but why not use the engine braking for it
will help you keep control. Secondly, slightly slightly release the braking pressure at the very last
moment. This gives the suspension a chance to return to normal otherwise you come to a halt, and the
forks bounce up from full travel, which can unbalance you as try to put your foot down and stop...
mercy you don't want to avoid an accident and then drop the bike like a beginner...


How about your BIKE???
I trust it's in good shape, well-adjusted, and with plenty of life left in brake pads and tires. Wrong tires
pressures or worn tires can destroy braking feel and performance

HANDS???
Some people use all four fingers on the brake lever, and some prefer two or three. One is a possible with
the latest race brakes but I find that the less fingers the harder to get the fine control I need on the
track... so I alternate between two on the street and four on the track... but no one is going to
criticize the number of fingers as long as you can brake in the shortest distance possible listed in the
owners manual...

SURFACE???
Constantly changing... after all... it's the perverted highway... so you need to keep changing your
braking pressure, and be prepared to let the brakes off altogether over really slippery bits...

ARMS
Don't lock them straight... for you'll lose feel and control. Brace your body weight by taking weight
through the foot pegs and gripping the tank dents between your knees...

CLUTCH
Leave it engaged until the very last moment it should help you stop quicker and more in control if you
use the engine braking. If the engine starts to lock the back wheel up, slip the clutch slightly exactly as
you would when you pull away... now if your prize sports a slipper clutch then it will limit the engine
braking automatically for you...

BRAIN
Thinking to itself, "Do I need to stop? Couldn't I just bleed off a little speed and ride round the problem?
Where are my escape routes?" If you plan well enough ahead then you should hardly ever need to do an
emergency stop. You should always be aware of your position in relation to the perverted traffic full of
cagers out slaughtering the fine art of driving...

EYES
Constantly looking for another way out of trouble... don't look at the problem or you'll ride straight
towards it... rather focus on your escape route...

[Clive]

After 44 years of riding and racing... what still troubles me about ABS is dead weight and the fact it's present 100% of the time...  ain't no way to shed the pounds... and when dead weight is attached to my wheels the affects are mostly negative... negative heavy steering... negative slower turn in response... negative slower suspension action... negative longer braking distances...  and the more negatives my bike carries the less positive the trip... for me ABS weight spells trouble safely navigating the bendy bits not to mention panic stops...

For the 2007 Sprint ST, the difference is seven pounds.  As a racer, you may be able to detect that difference on a 482-pound motorcycle that isn't track oriented to begin with.  For me?  I'm up or down seven pounds depending on whether I'm walking in or out of the men's room.


(Good post, btw.  )

[Busy Little Whiner]

For the 2007 Sprint ST, the difference is seven pounds.  As a racer, you may be able to detect that difference on a 482-pound motorcycle that isn't track oriented to begin with.  For me?  I'm up or down seven pounds depending on whether I'm walking in or out of the men's room.


(Good post, btw.  )

I'm a hopless weight fanatic... why I would shave my legs if I though it might lighten Mr.RC45's burden...

and thanks for the thumbsup...

[cbsnbiker]

A real-world example of why ABS is worthwhile:

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,10960.0.html

[Busy Little Whiner]

I confident that in 44 years worth of riding I saved enough on ABS to buy another motorcycle... and I
still have all my pieces and parts... so here's a thought before bsd43 sticks a fork in it and locks us all
out of another ABS thread...  

Technically speaking everyone uses ABS... either be it mechanical or mental... so which type should a
new rider identify with???

Mechanical...
An anti-lock braking system (ABS) is a system on motorcycles which prevents the wheels from locking
while braking. The purpose of this is to allow the rider to maintain steering control under heavy braking
and, in some situations, to shorten braking distances by allowing the rider to hit the brake fully without
the fear of skidding or loss of control. Disadvantages of the system include increased braking distances
under certain conditions and the creation of a "false sense of security" among riders who do not
understand the operation and limitations of ABS or their bikes...

Mental...
An alert rider on a reasonable light weight motorcycle equipped with the latest designed braking system
and skilled in the threshold braking technique... The purpose of this is to allow the rider to maintain
steering control under heavy braking and, in some situations, to shorten braking distances by allowing
the rider to modulate the brakes fully without the fear of skidding or loss of control... Disadvantages of
the system include increased braking distances under certain conditions and the creation of a "false
sense of security" among riders who push beyond their limits of mental ABS...

I don't think you should view Anti Brake Technology with sanctimonious reverence and deem it with
wisdom more than human and suppose what they ride to be beyond improvement...

[basco]

.. so here's a thought before bsd43 sticks a fork in it and locks us all
out of another ABS thread...  

 

BTW, interesting read on the other stuff.  

[cbsnbiker]

I don't think you should view Anti Brake Technology with sanctimonious reverence and deem it with
wisdom more than human and suppose what they ride to be beyond improvement...

Repost. We already debunked that message.

In the real world, ABS can do an important and possibly life-saving job. Its absence can lead to crashes that might not otherwise have happened. It's that simple.

[Busy Little Whiner]

Repost. We already debunked that message.

In the real world, ABS can do an important and possibly life-saving job. Its absence can lead to crashes that might not otherwise have happened. It's that simple.

Translation:
ABS is so important I must check my ABS INOP light before I brake to know if I can squeeze the lever
with abandonment or if I have to modulate the pressure with skill because ABS absence can lead to
crashes that might not otherwise have happened...

[cbsnbiker]

Translation:
ABS is so important I must check my ABS INOP light before I brake to know if I can squeeze the lever
with abandonment of if I have to modulate the pressure with skill because ABS absence can lead to
crashes that might not otherwise have happened...

False translation.

Plus I don't see the relevance of that statement to any of the discussion in this thread, or the other one I cited a few posts ago.

[olderigetfasteriam]

False translation.

Plus I don't see the relevance of that statement to any of the discussion in this thread, or the other one I cited a few posts ago.

Oh just see it his way. It will never end any other way.

[Hickey]

I currently have my first bike with ABS.  This is a sport touring bike, an FJR.  I wouldn't want ABS on a repli-racer, track bike, or off road bike; but for a pure street bike the standard ABS on the FJR was a positive when I was shopping.  I've felt them pulse a few times, but so far I've never been in dire need of them.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that the brakes give me more confidence all the time, but there are situations where I know I can grab a handful without making the situation worse.  Fresh rain worries me less now, for example.

[Thundergod]

I love ABS-- I have been riding for over 20 years, and I consider myself a very competent and safe rider.
My ABS saved my ass twice already. Both were the deadly left hand turning cars. One on the cross-traffic, and one on a oncoming traffic.

Both times were beyond the "puckering moments" we all have. I would classify them as the "HOLY FU#K" moments. I am very cautious and very aware of all the traffic around me.
So I have to say that I was the only one paying attention--  I POUNDED-- POUNDED ON THE BRAKES. To say that I SLAMMED on the brakes was an understatement--Im am suprised that I did not blow a hydraulic line there was so much pressure applied.

In both cases...the ABS kicked on instantly-- allowed the front tire to continue rotating, avoiding the dreaded folding front tire...it allowed me to continue to navigate
the bike around the SUVs-- I ended up with my right leg, 2 inches from the front license plate of one car...and the other time I was able to pull out a ROSSI, a dramatic S curve around the car, ending up next to their drivers side door.

ABS saved my life, and MY BIKE....twice.

ABS--you hope you never need it...but once you NEED IT...YOU LOVE IT.

[tonyjuliano]

I absolutely despise ABS on motorcycles.  It was the only thing I disliked about my '03 VFR.

[Ant]

I absolutely despise ABS on motorcycles.  It was the only thing I disliked about my '03 VFR.

What a well rounded and convincing argument

[tonyjuliano]

What a well rounded and convincing argument

Ya see, I'm trying NOT to argue.  

Everyone has thier own personal prefence in regard to this issue.  My opinion is that there are things that I can do manually, that ABS does not address.  I learned a couple of different types of modulation years ago on the track, and that is what I'm comfortable with.

But ABS is helpful to some people I suppose, so more power to them.  

No arguments here.

[Ant]

Ya see, I'm trying NOT to argue.  

Everyone has thier own personal prefence in regard to this issue.  My opinion is that there are things that I can do manually, that ABS does not address.  I learned a couple of different types of modulation years ago on the track, and that is what I'm comfortable with.

But ABS is helpful to some people I suppose, so more power to them.  

No arguments here.

An argument doesn't have to be negative, it's explaining your belief and why you believe it! Weighing up the pros and cons etc

[tonyjuliano]

An argument doesn't have to be negative, it's explaining your belief and why you believe it! Weighing up the pros and cons etc

Webster defines "argument" as follows...

"a reason given in proof or rebuttal, discourse intended to persuade"

In my mind, there is no "proof" in regards to this issue.  It's all a matter of personal preference as far as I am concerned.  I would never try to persuade anyone to do things "my way', as what works for me rarely is suitable for other's (especially when it comes to 2 wheels).

But, now we're arguing about aguments, are'nt we?

[Thundergod]

ABS is useless on the track.
ABS is useful on the street.

Sure you can learn brake modulation for controlled environments and forward thinking events like that next turn coming up.
We all understand preload, and application of correct braking going around those beautiful river canyon sweepers.
ABS is not present under these circumstances...

For me, the only time ABS is present is the Emergency Situation....the completely unknown event that is life/Injury/Death/Crash event.
I oo can modulate my brakes quite easily in normal circumstances. But in the "life and death" split second moment you can't even think about modulations...Your reflexes and self-survival overpower all thought...and you mash the brakes.


Like I said before,
You never use ABS on a daily, weekly or even yearly basis...but when you do NEED IT-- YOU LOVE IT.

[tonyjuliano]

I would say ABS is useful for "some" on the street, just not for me.  

I did not like the lack of feel and control present under even emergency situations.  Like I posted before, the VFR, while a tech marvel in it's day, sucked in regards to ABS (and don't get me started on that "linked" braking mess).  At first I thought it may just be Honda's implementation, but I hated it just as much on the Beemer's I had a chance to ride.

[Husky23]

No, I'm not okay with it.  I'm frustrated with it.  I don't want anyone to get hurt.  But there is mounting evidence that the more we try to protect people, the more they adjust to it and continue to hurt themselves.  This is the risk homeostasis theory in action.

Ding Ding Ding....and we have a winner.

[Ant]

I would say ABS is useful for "some" on the street, just not for me.  

I did not like the lack of feel and control present under even emergency situations.  Like I posted before, the VFR, while a tech marvel in it's day, sucked in regards to ABS (and don't get me started on that "linked" braking mess).  At first I thought it may just be Honda's implementation, but I hated it just as much on the Beemer's I had a chance to ride.

If you can brake "properly" then you can brake the same with ABS. If you're not locking the wheel then you're not using the ABS. Anti-lock Braking System, does what it says on the tin.

[Thundergod]

I don't think a human can stimulate the precise brake-modulation of a ABS system. My system is close to 15 years old, it activates within .001 seconds of the wheel lock and it pulses the brake in .01 sec modulations....I know my "trigger finger" cannot sense wheel lock within 1/100th of a second, or modulate on/off/on/off every 1/10th of a second.... no matter how much coffee I have had.

[Clive]

Haven't we already agreed that a well-trained rider on clean, dry, level pavement, with warning and practice runs, can stop shorter without ABS than with?  I thought the bike rags had already shown that result more than once.

 

[tonyjuliano]

Haven't we already agreed that a well-trained rider on clean, dry, level pavement, with warning and practice runs, can stop shorter without ABS than with?  I thought the bike rags had already shown that result more than once.

 

Ding, ding, ding!!!

I know I can.

[Ant]

Haven't we already agreed that a well-trained rider on clean, dry, level pavement, with warning and practice runs, can stop shorter without ABS than with?  I thought the bike rags had already shown that result more than once.

 

I'll remember that next time I'm on a wet, crappy downhill pavement when someone pulls out in front of me with no warning. After all, we all get convenient warning signs and practice runs before we need to panic brake don't we?

The advert tells us so

[Clive]

I'll remember that next time I'm on a wet, crappy downhill pavement when someone pulls out in front of me with no warning. After all, we all get convenient warning signs and practice runs before we need to panic brake don't we?

Not sure if this is supposed to be sarcasm directed at me, but that was my point.  If you've read this thread, I'm in the pro-ABS camp.

I just wanted to keep people honest, as it seemed other pro-ABS posters were stating that ABS could stop the bike faster than the rider under any conditions.

[Ant]

Not sure if this is supposed to be sarcasm directed at me, but that was my point.  If you've read this thread, I'm in the pro-ABS camp.

I just wanted to keep people honest, as it seemed other pro-ABS posters were stating that ABS could stop the bike faster than the rider under any conditions.

Sorry, yes it was sarcasm. I knew which side you were campaigning for
ABS isn't about stopping quicker, its about stopping with the shiny side up still  

[tonyjuliano]

Not crashing can be very overated!  

I ride motorcycles for the thrill, for the diversion from the mundane.

Please don't take away from that with ABS and linked braking and automatic shifting (not to mention climate control, cd players and navigation).

I'm not alone here, ABS is not for everybody.

[cbsnbiker]

Haven't we already agreed that a well-trained rider on clean, dry, level pavement, with warning and practice runs, can stop shorter without ABS than with?  I thought the bike rags had already shown that result more than once.

 

Yup. It's theoretically possible.

Alas, many riders then go on to believe that they can outbreak ABS in all conditions. That's where reality diverges from optimism and ego.

[Sorthum]

From my perspective, with training, in some instances, non-ABS beats ABS.

The problem is, I don't think anyone can be on the top of their game, in all situations, every single time.  Given the choice I'd gladly go ABS-- sadly, my bike didn't come with it.