anyone with experience beating a ticket under california speed trap law?

[johnnyquest]

Myself, two other bikers, and our deployment commander all got stopped on I-8 last weekend on our way home to Tucson from MCAS miramar. The CHP was using aircraft to measure our speed and had a large group of officers at the bottom of a long hill pulling people over...they stopped 12 of us as a group! I've read some stuff online about how speed traps are illegal in California, and that the arresting officer has to measure your speed or pace you...something none of the arresting officers did. The aircraft just called down and said "the red car, white car, and three motorcycles....84" If I can't fight this with the speed trap law, would I have any luck explaining to the judge that I was going with the flow of traffic? If we did 70 downhill in those mountains we would have been run down by a semi. I've seen this speed trap law listed on several different websites and just wanted to know if anyone's used it to beat a ticket. Thanks.

JQ

[Rogue]

There are two different Speed Laws in CA.  You have to look up the actual vehicle code in the DMV website.

1)  Unsafe Speed:  this code is based on if you were going faster than what is considered safe under the conditions (ie:  road, weather, traffic).

2)  Maximum Speed Violation:  the Max speed allowable in CA is 70 mph.  If you were sited for this, you can't use the "Speed Trap Law" as your defense.

The Speed Trap Law basically says:  anytime a speed measuring device is used to enforce speed on any given roadway, a)  the enforcing officer must be in full uniform and on or in a marked police vehicle, b)  there is a Road Survey done by engineers on that road.  The Survey must not be older than (XX) years (I can't remember how many years is allowed).  A Road Survey basically is done by measuring the average speed of motorists on a given road over a period of time.  This average is then reduced 10%.  And that is how the speed is determined.  The officer on the scene has the discretion to determine whether to give or take that 10% within the speed limit.  The Speed Trap defense is used in court by asking the officer to produce said Road Survey for the court.  You must ask this in advance to give the officer a chance to bring it on your court date.  Without it, the case must be dismissed.

An important exception to this survey is if the enforcement is being done in an area where there is an absolute fixed limite like, a) 25 mph in a residential/school zone, and b) 65 mph on a freeway.

Good luck.

[bsd43]

The survey has to be less than 5 or 7 years old, depending on the road.

The other thing you should fight for is that the officer in the aircraft must also show up to the court appearance. Also, they cannot measure your distance between two fixed points on the road.

CA VC 40802

[johnnyquest]

There are two different Speed Laws in CA.  You have to look up the actual vehicle code in the DMV website.

1)  Unsafe Speed:  this code is based on if you were going faster than what is considered safe under the conditions (ie:  road, weather, traffic).

2)  Maximum Speed Violation:  the Max speed allowable in CA is 70 mph.  If you were sited for this, you can't use the "Speed Trap Law" as your defense.

The Speed Trap Law basically says:  anytime a speed measuring device is used to enforce speed on any given roadway, a)  the enforcing officer must be in full uniform and on or in a marked police vehicle, b)  there is a Road Survey done by engineers on that road.  The Survey must not be older than (XX) years (I can't remember how many years is allowed).  A Road Survey basically is done by measuring the average speed of motorists on a given road over a period of time.  This average is then reduced 10%.  And that is how the speed is determined.  The officer on the scene has the discretion to determine whether to give or take that 10% within the speed limit.  The Speed Trap defense is used in court by asking the officer to produce said Road Survey for the court.  You must ask this in advance to give the officer a chance to bring it on your court date.  Without it, the case must be dismissed.

An important exception to this survey is if the enforcement is being done in an area where there is an absolute fixed limite like, a) 25 mph in a residential/school zone, and b) 65 mph on a freeway.

Good luck.

They cited me for 22356 (b) which I googled says "(b) No person shall drive a vehicle upon that highway at a speed greater than 70 miles per hour, as posted.", so why can't I use the speed trap law as my defense against this? The aircraft either timed me from point a to point b or 'paced' me, either way seems like I could fight it since a patrol car didn't pace me or measure my speed with radar or laser. On one website I read this: "Plane speed detection - This is very similar to VASCAR as the officer in the airplane measures the amount of time it takes a vehicle to cover a certain distance. The officer then computes the speed of the vehicle and radios it to a patrol officer on the ground who stops the car and writes a ticket. Having marks on the ground or highway are considered illegal in California as they are considered a speed trap. There are a few disadvantages to airplane speed detection which can work to your benefit in court.  Usually the officer uses the airplane to pace the vehicle on the ground and get their speed. You must explain to the courts that the airplane speeds are measured in air speed which is relative to the surrounding air. If the airplane is traveling into the wind, the speed is slower than if the aircraft was producing the same amount of power with a tailwind. Also, it may be difficult to determine whether it was actually your vehicle that was spotted from the air, since many cars look alike from such a great distance. This could be the basis for a sound defense in court." This webpage also mentions that both officers, the one in the air and the one on the ground have to appear in court.

So, If I can't use this based on the 22356 violation can I somehow convince the judge that I was going with the flow of traffic, based on the fact that so many of us were pulled over at once? Any chance that I could convince him/her that I felt it wasn't safe to ride at the speed limit based on the traffic surrounding me? I could present my msf cards and have the officers testify that I was wearing all my safety gear and riding in a sane manner with the flow of traffic. Do I have any chance at all of beating this??

JQ

[FJR1300]

Do I have any chance at all of beating this??

Not the answer you want, but... not really.  As always, it's your right to go to court and plead not guilty.  The court will then set a trail date and you can argue your case.

[Rogue]

So, If I can't use this based on the 22356 violation can I somehow convince the judge that I was going with the flow of traffic, based on the fact that so many of us were pulled over at once? Any chance that I could convince him/her that I felt it wasn't safe to ride at the speed limit based on the traffic surrounding me? I could present my msf cards and have the officers testify that I was wearing all my safety gear and riding in a sane manner with the flow of traffic. Do I have any chance at all of beating this??

JQ

I'm not a lawyer nor a cop so I'm not the best person to ask.  However, from your description of the events, you probably have a good chance of having this case dismissed for two reasons:

1)  Since both officers need to show up at the same time at your chosen court date, make sure you ask for an extension of that court date as far as possible.  Make it difficult for them to show up at the same time.  Make it difficult for them to even remember.

2)  Since the officer was up in the air, there is reasonable doubt he knew YOUR speed exactly.  Unless of course you were in the lead!  Most likely the leader is the rider he was pacing.  If you were in the middle of this group, you can easily argue that you were moving at the flow of traffic but simply mixed with the group when you guys got pulled over.  

Whatever you do, don't stand there and tell the judge you were moving with the flow of traffic at 85 mph!  You just admitted your guilt!  You are trying to defend yourself NOT other traffic!  If you want this to be your defense, then say something like this, "Your Honor, I understand the speed limit on that Interstate is 70 mph.  Officer XX gave me a ticket for doing 85.  However, I was riding with the flow of traffic and I was NOT going 85 mph!"  If the Judge asks what that speed was, say you are not sure.  But it wasn't 85 mph!  You were simply riding with your group who was "way ahead of you" and got pulled over as a large group and given a group ticket.  How does the officer up in the air know exactly how fast YOU were going?  Did he pace you?  No.  He paced the leader and you were NOT the leader.  Right?  

Anyway, you can't use the Speed Trap Law in your defense as I explained in my first post because your alleged violation is with the California Maximum speed law.

BTW, you still have to pay the fine up front.  Then ask for an extension of your court date.  If/when you win the case, you get your money back.

[johnnyquest]

BTW, you still have to pay the fine up front.  Then ask for an extension of your court date.  If/when you win the case, you get your money back.

I didn't know that....I appreciate your insight in this matter. I'll definitely remember to not admit I was speeding. I guess I'll wait for my notice in the mail and go from there. Thanks.

JQ

[Pelagic]

Geeze Rogue, ... if you not ACTUALLY a lawyer, how do you know all this stuff???  


 

[lostpckt]

Usually the officer uses the airplane to pace the vehicle on the ground and get their speed. You must explain to the courts that the airplane speeds are measured in air speed which is relative to the surrounding air. If the airplane is traveling into the wind, the speed is slower than if the aircraft was producing the same amount of power with a tailwind.

Not relevant. Pacing would most likely be done on a GPS that is tracking ground speed. But, good luck fighting it, I really wish they'd spend more time catching the people doing the "unsafe" speeds, than the ones that are simply cruising along enjoying the day.

[Rogue]

Geeze Rogue, ... if you not ACTUALLY a lawyer, how do you know all this stuff???  

 

Like a good Accountant, I do my research.  

[1moreroad]

 

Like a good Accountant, I do my research.  

And he's had to do lots of research.  That happens when you go back to the cop and ask him to write you a ticket, right?  At least that's how I remember the story on STNv1.

[johnnyquest]

Not relevant. Pacing would most likely be done on a GPS that is tracking ground speed. But, good luck fighting it, I really wish they'd spend more time catching the people doing the "unsafe" speeds, than the ones that are simply cruising along enjoying the day.

Thanks, that's exactly how I feel about it. I even saw the aircraft pass over and didn't think anything of it since I wasn't riding faster than the traffic around me. Anyways, the court clerk estimates my ticket will be $160, my motorcycle insurance company doubts it will affect my rates, but my car insurance is with another company so who knows. I understand that supposedly if you get a ticket from one state it will appear on your record in your home state, but I know I got a ticket in New Mexico several years back and my rates never went up. I guess I'll end up paying the ticket and perhaps I'll do the online traffic school.

JQ

[FJR1300]

I understand that supposedly if you get a ticket from one state it will appear on your record in your home state, but I know I got a ticket in New Mexico several years back and my rates never went up.

It's know as the Drivers License Compact and all states are members except for Michigan, Wisconsin, Georgia, Tennessee (dropped out in 1997) and Massachusetts.

You can get more information http://www.answers.com/topic/driver-license-compact.

[lostpckt]

I guess I'll end up paying the ticket and perhaps I'll do the online traffic school.

Before I moved to WA, I got a ticket here in CA. I "earned" the ticket, so I paid it and did the traffic school (there was no online option yet). It takes up some time and gives some $$ to the state. *shrug*

Best of luck to ya.

[denydog]

I think I just read a letter to the editor on exactly this subject in this month's Motorcyclist magazine.  It was written by a police officer, and seemed to summarize some of the information in this thread.