Underwhelmed by the ST3

[SWriverstone]

So I took Holly's new ('06) ST3 for a longer test ride last night. It's a beautiful bike. Super-comfy seat, and awesome-sounding engine. The thing is a rocketship on the interstate, and tears up the twisties with vigor and style!

But I have to say I was generally underwhelmed with the bike. After all the VFR-bashing that goes on...and all the ST3-worshipping that goes on, I think anyone who thinks the ST3 is a better bike than the VFR is smokin' crack! I'm not saying the ST3 is a bad bike, quite the contrary...I'm saying that to me, it performed almost identically to the VFR in most aspects. I definitely think the ST3's engine felt more powerful, with a much wider power band...but read on...

My biggest complaint with my VFR has been the snatchy, twitchy throttle response. Well, imagine my shock and amazement when I found that the ST3 was WAY worse than the VFR!!! The throttle on this bike was INSANELY twitchy and hyper-sensitive. If I so much as blinked an eye or rode over a tiny bump in the road, the throttle would twitch and the engine would surge. On a straight, level stretch of road, I found it almost impossible to maintain speed at a steady throttle position without the engine twitching and surging---it was maddening! (BTW, I was putting ZERO weight on my hands and wrists, supporting my weight entirely with my legs and lower back---I made it a point to do this to see if that reduced the twitchy throttle---it didn't.)

Now remember---I'm accustomed to a fuel-injected bike with a twitchy throttle. It's especially bad when I'm coming from a VFR...and the ST3's throttle feels like a nightmare by comparison!

What made this even more disappointing is that I'm also comparing the ST3 to the 748. I (perhaps foolishly) thought that because it's still a Duc, there might be some resemblance between the ST3's engine/throttle response and the 748---no way! Not even close! They're like bikes from two different manufacturers!

Again, I have to emphasize that this issue is not "me." It's very real, and very annoying. So my question to all other ST3 owners out there is...is this normal for an ST3? Or is there something going on with this particular bike? (If all ST3's are like this, then I'm astonished you guys all tolerate such twitchy throttle response!)

As another point of comparison, I rode a Suzuki V-Strom 650 earlier the same day...and the DL650's throttle and engine were FAR smoother than the ST3. (And this is a "cheap Japanese bike!") Again...I'd take the DL650 over the ST3 any day!

If it weren't for the throttle issue, I'd rate the ST3 above my VFR...but the throttle is so bad, I'll take my VFR any day over this bike! Please don't think I'm trying to bash Ducati here---I'm not! I LOVE Ducati's! So it's with great sadness that I post this about the ST3, which in every other respect is a beautiful bike...but this issue totally spoiled it for me.

Scott

[marc11]

There is something wrong with that ST3, perhaps the TB's are out of synch or the bike is a bit lean (well if it is stock it is lean), but it shouldn't be as bad as you are describing.  While I cannot comment directly on the St3, with my ST4 I can feather and roll on or off the throttle with zero jerking or twitching.

Oh and the DL650 is so damn ugly to look at and or be seen on, near or even thinking about that I would take the ST3/4 with twitch throttle and all over it!

[keystonejenks]

Does Holly share your feelings on this matter? Just curious what he take on the ST3 is.

 

[SWriverstone]

Does Holly share your feelings on this matter? Just curious what he take on the ST3 is.

 

Honestly JJ, I don't know! I haven't mentioned my thoughts to her yet, 'cause I'm almost afraid to (don't want to "rain on her parade!") But it's so bad I feel like I have to say something and see what she thinks. I can tell you that though she hasn't expressed anything negative...she hasn't exactly been jumping up and down with joy---I seriously believe she's wishing she had another 748! And so far, I agree---the 748 just puts this particular ST3 to shame! (In terms of the overall riding experience.)

I dunno Marc11---you sound like you haven't ridden a DL650...'cause that engine is a precision instrument!  

I sincerely hope there is something wrong wth this ST3...because if not, then I'm gonna cry!

Scott

[bizarro]

 

I expect much huffing and puffing to ensue in this thread.

[SWriverstone]

I expect much huffing and puffing to ensue in this thread.

LOL, maybe so...but again: IT'S NOT ME!!!   I did NOT exaggerate even a tiny bit in my comments above. This ST3 has an INSANELY twitchy throttle! (I mean, it was so twitchy that sometimes, just cruising along at speed, the chain would literally jerk as the engine surged!)

Scott

[marc11]

Honestly JJ, I don't know! I haven't mentioned my thoughts to her yet, 'cause I'm almost afraid to (don't want to "rain on her parade!") But it's so bad I feel like I have to say something and see what she thinks. I can tell you that though she hasn't expressed anything negative...she hasn't exactly been jumping up and down with joy---I seriously believe she's wishing she had another 748! And so far, I agree---the 748 just puts this particular ST3 to shame! (In terms of the overall riding experience.)

I dunno Marc11---you sound like you haven't ridden a DL650...'cause that engine is a precision instrument!  

I sincerely hope there is something wrong wth this ST3...because if not, then I'm gonna cry!

Scott

Just busting the DL crowd, I am sure it is a fine running machine, but damn, that face  

I do think the bike may need some service, it just doesn't sound right to be that bad.  Is it still under warranty? (not sure if you purchased new or used), if new, I can say with My ST4 it had some slight surging, some off/on throttle jerkiness and would occasionally stall when coming to a stop, all cured at the 600 mile service and none ever returned.

Wasn't there a recall on the ST3, not sure if it was 2006 or 2007, but it had to do with the ECU and exhaust valve return spring?  Seemed to cause surging and tough riding conditions...

[SWriverstone]

Just busting the DL crowd, I am sure it is a fine running machine, but damn, that face  

I do think the bike may need some service, it just doesn't sound right to be that bad.  Is it still under warranty? (not sure if you purchased new or used), if new, I can say with My ST4 it had some slight surging, some off/on throttle jerkiness and would occasionally stall when coming to a stop, all cured at the 600 mile service and none ever returned.

Wasn't there a recall on the ST3, not sure if it was 2006 or 2007, but it had to do with the ECU and exhaust valve return spring?  Seemed to cause surging and tough riding conditions...

Thanks Marc---this is exactly the kind of information I'm hoping to gather for when we take the bike back to the dealer. I'm praying that there are some adjustments that need to be made that will smooth this out.

If I were comparing to any other bike than a 6th-gen VFR (which are infamous for twitchy throttles), I'd suspect maybe I'm just not accustomed to the ST3's throttle...but when it felt worse than the VFR, I know there's got to be something wrong!

Scott

[st ryder]

The throttle (non) issue can be worked out either mechanically or by practice. I found my throttle was "twitchy" until *I* got use to it. Squeeze it before you roll in on when exiting a corner, and learn which gear to use when, as the v-twin is NOT the same as your v-4 re grunt/revs, you don't need to shift down as much nor keep the revs as high. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is as much which a rider who needs to get to know the bike as with a bike that may need some adjustment. Give it time.  

[SWriverstone]

The throttle (non) issue can be worked out either mechanically or by practice. I found my throttle was "twitchy" until *I* got use to it. Squeeze it before you roll in on when exiting a corner, and learn which gear to use when, as the v-twin is NOT the same as your v-4 re grunt/revs, you don't need to shift down as much nor keep the revs as high. As far as I'm concerned, the issue is as much which a rider who needs to get to know the bike as with a bike that may need some adjustment. Give it time.  

You may be right...but again, I'm already accustomed to a twitchy throttle and have a VERY steady/smooth throttle touch. And I simply couldn't make the ST3 run smoothly at any times other than under constant acceleration. When maintaining 60mph in 3rd gear (around 5500-6K I think)...and holding the throttle rock-steady (I mean, making it a point not to move the throttle at all)...the engine was surging. It was very disconcerting!

It's as if moving the throttle .00000000001" causes the engine to LEAP or BRAKE! Crazy...

Scott

[VIVID1]

Wasn't there a recall on the ST3, not sure if it was 2006 or 2007, but it had to do with the ECU and exhaust valve return spring?  Seemed to cause surging and tough riding conditions...

That was on 2004's models maybe earlier ones as well, although my 2005 had the problem too because it was built early in the year.

Compared to a 996, both my ST3 and 900SS have an on/off throttle. My 954RR is very smooth in comparison. But nothing unpleasant, just something to get used to, so maybe there is something wrong with Holly’s bike.  

[VIVID1]

I found my throttle was "twitchy" until *I* got use to it.

Same here, the in-line-4's are very different form the twins, I almost think that the in-line-4’s are much easier to ride, they don’t require specific RPMs, such precise shifting like the L-twins. It took me a month to get used to the ST3 coming off the 954RR and to ride it the way it likes to be ridden.

If I test rode the ST3, I would have not bought it, I didn't like it at first and now I love it  

[photomd]

I agree that it could be as simple as how the bike is set up. I've worked on several bikes that were horrible when I got them: my airhead and a Vmax are two that come to mind. Anyway, go through them methodically and making sure they were tuned to spec made both nice bikes to ride.

That being said, the more I mess with FI bikes the more I realize they are incredibly lean to get through the EPA cert. A term UFO used that struck me is that they are "binary": on/off. Unfortunately as you lean any engine out, it gets snatchy. It doesn't matter if it's FI or carbs.

IMHO, I'd make sure everything is to spec: syched, valves, clean air filter. If that's OK, richening the mixture with a box that "fools" the computer into a more rich mixture is where I'd go next. I know this can be tedious, but if you assume everything is fine, then you don't "know" f'er sure...know what I mean?  

You've hit on one of the reason I enjoy doing my own work. While it takes me longer than a shop, I enjoy making a bike run correctly and learning how to do it.  

[VIVID1]

Maybe try test riding another ST3 to see if it's the same

Or meet Rick or me in Ohio/Ketucky or somewhere half way to swap bikes

[SWriverstone]

The dealer where we bought the bike is great---the owner is a great guy...although admittedly, I'd bet most of his experience is with Duc race bikes (since he was a racer).

I'd normally assume he would have taken this bike out and ridden it (and discovered the severe snatchiness himself)...but come to think of it, I think every mile on the bike was ridden by Holly (test ride + riding it home after buying it)...so I don't think the dealer could have ever known about it with this particular bike.

Scott

PS - I'd love to try another bike Anna! Maybe I can convince Holly to meet you guys somewhere...(An excuse for a trip!  )

[Mr. Squidward]

In ’06 Ducati went to a closed loop fuelling system on the ST3 with the addition of an O2 sensor.  Many owners have reported drivability problems (surging, stumbling ect.) on these bikes.  Some of these problems were reportedly cured by tuning, some by replacing the ECU with the D.P. version, and a few seemingly couldn’t be cured.
I suspect all could be fixed by a competent technician with the skill and patience to see the job through.  If you have a good dealer I’d bring the bike in and work with him until it’s right.

[Bodhi]

Nothing wrong with the throttle on my ST3. It's got power when I need it and no twitchiness. Nothing but ear-to-ear grins since I've had it. The couple of times I've switched bikes with a friend's VFR, the thing I noticed most was the VTEC jolting at unexpected times. I gotta think anyone complaining about the ST3's throttle response in comparison with the VFR must be the one smoking the crack.

[SWriverstone]

Nothing wrong with the throttle on my ST3. It's got power when I need it and no twitchiness. Nothing but ear-to-ear grins since I've had it. The couple of times I've switched bikes with a friend's VFR, the thing I noticed most was the VTEC jolting at unexpected times. I gotta think anyone complaining about the ST3's throttle response in comparison with the VFR must be the one smoking the crack.

Aaah but Bodhi...I know exactly where VTEC engages on my VFR...and I never engage it!   And if you consistently ride the VFR below VTEC, it is an absolutely SWEET bike!  

Scott

[Bodhi]

Aaah but Bodhi...I know exactly where VTEC engages on my VFR...and I never engage it!   And if you consistently ride the VFR below VTEC, it is an absolutely SWEET bike!  

Scott

So you never crank it over 6800 RPM?  

Hmmm, maybe if you regularly rode the ST3 you'd love it too.

Or as someone else suggested, maybe there's something that needs adjusting on her's.

[atypical1]

Aaah but Bodhi...I know exactly where VTEC engages on my VFR...and I never engage it!   And if you consistently ride the VFR below VTEC, it is an absolutely SWEET bike!  

Scott

But isn't that when the power kicks in? Why would you ride your bike out of the powerband?  

[SWriverstone]

Well, there must not be many '06-07 ST3 owners on this forum! I've been doing some digging around over on Ducati.ms, and apparently the problem that Mr. Squidward mentioned above is a common problem. There have been MANY ST3 owners who have complained of surging...not good!  

I've been able to identify a few solutions:

1. TB synch
2. TPS issues/settings
3. (Most successful) Ducati Performance cans/airbox/ECU kit

The D.P. kit seems to have everyone raving about the performance improvements...but it's expensive! (Like $1,700 installed.) Which begs the question, should a new ST3 owner have to fork out another $1,700 just to get the bike to run well?

In any event, I'm glad my observations have been more than confirmed: there are definitely known, documented surging issues with '06 (and newer) ST3s.

Scott

[SWriverstone]

But isn't that when the power kicks in? Why would you ride your bike out of the powerband?  

I dunno—where I ride the VFR (on super-technical, 2nd-gear twisties) if you're engaging VTEC, you've decided to commit suicide!   I get plenty of thrills keeping the revs below 7K, which is where VTEC kicks in on my bike. Furthermore, the few times I have engaged VTEC, I felt nothing but a silky-smooth transition.

Apparently, the truth about VTEC is similar to the surging issue in ST3s: some people have a rough transition, others don't. My bike feels awesome when VTEC kicks in—just a change in the engine sound, with no bump or jerk at all.

Scott

[Windblown]

As mentioned above, lots of new FI bikes have this issue. The Euro regs are forcing the manufacturers to run the bikes incredibly lean.  That's why your research showed the most satidfactory solution is a fuel mapping mod.  

You can go green and live with it, or fly in the face of the green movement and fix it.

Oh the irony!    

[Sarchi]

Something's gotta be wrong with the EFI control unit.  I would take it back to the dealer and make them test ride it.  Or could it be bad gas?  I assume you're still on the first tankful.

Hope things smooth out for you Scott.  I love the ST3 too, at least from sitting on them.

[DNA]

The more I hear - the more I think moody Triumphs rock!

When comparing the 2 bikes, which will spend the most time in the shop?

Shop time smackdown #1: ST Duck VS VTEC VFR

[Windblown]

The more I hear - the more I think moody Triumphs rock!

That's because they do!  I miss mine.    

I'm betting the dealer Scott & Holly bought the Duc from from will get ithings squared away in short order though.  

[RideWV]

+1

I'm thinking the dealer will make it right.  Maybe not as smooth as the VFR but good enough.  So far, nothing beats a well tuned set of carbs for feel though.  I've test ridden 5 bikes in the last week, all FI, and they all felt snatchy to me.  My GPZ is smoooooooth like butta'.

James

[photomd]

It's deja vu all over again: Sounds like BWM owners 10 years ago.  

Honestly Scott, I don't know what it is, but my hunch is that it's lean. My oilhead surged for awhile until I tuned it juuuuusssst riiight: Throttle postion Sensor set, and very carefull synch with new cables (another BMW "quirk" ). I still have some surge if the throttle bodies get outta synch and it tends happen with gas that I hypothosize have lots of additives. Exxon seems to be the worse.

Anyway, good luck with it. It's a pretty bike. I hope y'all can get 'er tuned to your liking. My bet is a custom fuel map or box to richen the mixture will fix your problem. If you richen it, see if you have a catalytic converter. You may need to remove it as a rich mixture might clog it. HTH's.  

[kendenton]

Apparently, the truth about VTEC is similar to the surging issue in ST3s: some people have a rough transition, others don't. My bike feels awesome when VTEC kicks in—just a change in the engine sound, with no bump or jerk at all.

Scott

I demo'd a VFR for the first time at Americade last week, and on that bike the VTEC was like an afterburner kicking in.  VERY abrupt, not at all smooth.  I also noticed that if I crept up on the transition with a very slow throttle increase, it...paused....for a heartbeat before switching modes.  rrrrr...RRRRR.  Very weird feeling.

[keystonejenks]

The more I hear - the more I think moody Triumphs rock!

That's how I feel. My Triumph has given me issues and I'm ready to spit tea all over the thing. I cuss it and say all kinds of nasty things about it; but then I go out for a ride and all is forgiven.

Scott, the great thing about small dealers (especially Euro dealers) is they want to keep their customers happy because they're trying to develop clients.  They're usually very passionate too. I have a hunch that if you took the bike back to them with your concerns, they'd try whatever they could to make things right.

[st ryder]

It's deja vu all over again: Sounds like BWM owners 10 years ago.  

Not quite: virtually all BMW's boxers surged for more than a decade (still do afaik, as now also do K's) using open loop efi  for the most part, which was referred to as a "feature" of the bikes by BMWNA when thousands of owners complained to their dealers, and was/is virtually not able to be tuned -out.

OTOH, only some 2006/7 ST3's have this issue since they went to closed loop to meet Euro III emissions standrads, and *can* be properly tuned. My 2005 ST3 has always ran like a top since day one: no surging/fueling issues what-so-ever. Any "snatchiness" in the throttle was tuned out by my right wrist and left foot action over time and experience.

Ducati open loop EFI is *very* good, and it seems their closed loop can be resolved *if* there's any fueling issue. Please, do no taint Ducati's good EFI name with shades of BMW-like problems, as they are worlds apart.    

[sagerat]

One man's twitchiness is another's responsiveness.  

I'm sure the Duc dealer can get it dialed in.

The Beemers did surge until the dualspark oilheads came in which cured the problem.  Think the dualsparks started in 2003?

My '02 Viffer was the first year of VTEC and while it was noticeable the VTEC coming on wasn't quite the "afterburner JATO jump to warp drive, Scottie phenomenon" that some experienced.  Even when leaned over in mid-corner the VTEC wasn't that big of a deal.

[photomd]

Not quite: virtually all BMW's boxers surged for more than a decade (still do afaik, as now also do K's) using open loop efi  for the most part, which was referred to as a "feature" of the bikes by BMWNA when thousands of owners complained to their dealers, and was/is virtually not able to be tuned -out.

OTOH, only some 2006/7 ST3's have this issue since they went to closed loop to meet Euro III emissions standrads, and *can* be properly tuned. My 2005 ST3 has always ran like a top since day one: no surging/fueling issues what-so-ever. Any "snatchiness" in the throttle was tuned out by my right wrist and left foot action over time and experience.

Ducati open loop EFI is *very* good, and it seems their closed loop can be resolved *if* there's any fueling issue. Please, do no taint Ducati's good EFI name with shades of BMW-like problems, as they are worlds apart.    

...umm...OK.  

pssst....BMW's are closed loop and installing a Techlusion box would fix it, at least it did for several riders I've talked to. Also stick an EGA up any modern bike and you'll be amazed at the low reading, especially once the cat comes up to temp.  

Scott, I hope it all ends up good. Holly looks great on that bike.  

[Aero]

Scott, I took the liberty of copying your post to the Yahoo Ducati ST owners group to see what other ST3 owners had experienced, and although some have had surging issues a good dealer can sort it out for you without spending big bucks on the DP kit. You can check out the replies starting at message number 95537. Don't despair, just treat it as teething troubles!
Allen

[SWriverstone]

Thanks Aero—interesting posts over there. I appreciate all the feedback, and I'm not about to declare the ST3 a waste of money! Aside from this surging issue, it's an awesome bike. I have to admit I feel more planted and stable railing through corners on the ST3 than I do on my VFR! And the sound is heavenly!

The dealer is a good guy, and I'm sure he'll do something about it. That being said, I'm always perplexed why dealers aren't more conscientious about researching these kinds of issues on all the bikes they sell—it really doesn't take that much time. For example, I could take any model Ducati, spend an hour googling things like "[model name] trouble issues problems" and easily come up with a pretty thorough representation of the types and degree of problems owners have been having. Then I'd know to be on the lookout for these issues and have solutions ready.

Oh well...hopefully it can be worked out under warranty without great expense. (Then again, I've heard so many rave reviews of the DP kit upgrade that I'm thinking it still might be worth the $1700 or whatever to do it!)

Scott

[bizarro]

You should never, EVER have to spend $1700 on a brand new bike to get it to run properly. EVER.

That being said, I'm sure your dealer will get it sussed if he can.

[2cats]

I've ridden three different ST3's in three different years, starting with 2004 and finishing with one a couple of months ago, and I felt the same way about all three bikes.  Nasty throttle response.  

[elmandarino]

Just thought I would add my ten pennysworth. I have ridden a lot of bikes and I have to say that my 2005 ST3 is beautifully smooth. So much so I noticed almost immediately as worth commenting upon. The reason for saying this is that it shows that it can be sorted. Hope that cheers you (and Holly up).

[Aero]

Oh well...hopefully it can be worked out under warranty without great expense. (Then again, I've heard so many rave reviews of the DP kit upgrade that I'm thinking it still might be worth the $1700 or whatever to do it!)
Scott

Hmm, maybe the dealer would consider doing a REALLY good deal on the DP kit if he doesn't have to spend hours doing warranty work to sort it out? The kit is pretty much plug-n-play I believe? Just a thought.  

[st ryder]

...umm...OK.  

pssst....BMW's are closed loop and installing a Techlusion box would fix it, at least it did for several riders I've talked to. Also stick an EGA up any modern bike and you'll be amazed at the low reading, especially once the cat comes up to temp.  

Scott, I hope it all ends up good. Holly looks great on that bike.  

Umm, okay,  ....Psst, my '87 BMW is open loop.   AFAIK, there is NO fix for a surging BMW boxer that works for everybody.  

[photomd]

Umm, okay,  ....Psst, my '87 BMW is open loop.   AFAIK, there is NO fix for a surging BMW boxer that works for everybody.  

So does your K- bike surge?

[st ryder]

So does your K- bike surge?

Runs like an electric motor,   "on-off" switch included,   and its due for its yearly spline lube   if I decide to go to Vancouver this year.  

But we're talking about the thousands of boxers with open loop and thousands of newer K's with closed loops that surge, not mid-eighties K bikes that don't, well at least not the superior k75 anyways.  

My point is, you cannot compare any fueling issues some Ducati's may have with BMW's fiasco, ie "deja vu all over again": When it comes to EFI, Ducati get's it right, BMW don't. My 2005 ST3 fueling has always been spot on, and *once* I got used to the throttle "responsiveness" (I like that), and the right gearing to match L-twin torque/revs with road speed, very smooth. My ST3 is the most fun and most reliable bike I've ever owned, not to discount any negative experiences some closed loop ST3 owners are dealing with, which from what I've read and heard, can and will be sorted out; again, very un-BMW like.    

Please, don't compare my EFI Ducati L-twin's fuel metering with a BMW boxer.  It's just wrong.  

[photomd]

I respectfully disagree...completely.  

Boxers were closed loop from the beginning in '93 here in the states. Some countries did get non-cat, open loop bikes, but in the states they were all closed loop. Here's Rob Lentini's fixes for surges. BMW's fix for this "nonproblem" has been dual plugs, and dual 02 sensors.

My "deja vu" comment comes from people complaining about bikes losing their smooth throttle transition as emisions tighten. Some reports stated the 6th generation VFR was very lean to meet emision early and some reports hinted that emisions are the reason for the VTEC. This is the first VFR I remember people complaining about this problem. The press complained about the second generation FZ1 having fueling problems. Was it secondary to the lean nature of the bike? I dunno, but I suspect.

Another reason for the "deja vu" comment was the writers of the wrenching columns for both Rider and Cycle World have at different times stated that bikes are incredibly lean today. If you change the intake or exhaust, you will most likely lean the bike further making the on/off transitions worse. I've seen this with my own EGA. A XX with carbs had two brothers slip ons. With the stock exhaust and warmed up, his CO reading was 1.9%. With the exhaust it dropped to 0.6% and was very snatchy. We lifted the needles in his slides and the CO came up to 2.3% and it pulls like a frieght train. It's very smooth as well.

In my experience, as you push the CO level below 2%, bikes become increasing "snatchy" and the carburation is set between 2-3% it smooths out nicely. Of course this assumes air filter is clean, carbs/TB's are synched and everything is tuned correctly.

If pride in ownership keeps you from realizing that bikes are becoming increasing lean, leading to difficulty with throttle transitions, that's cool. Both the ST3 and an oilhead are just engines. Hints of the difficulties engineers are having with throttle transitions are evident in R6's. (I'm currently helping a friend get one track ready.) Yamaha doesn't even allow a direct connection from the throttle to the intakes. It's controlled electronically. Some manufacturers have a second computer controlled butterfly to help smooth out engine response. Would a manufacturere do all this just for an engineering exercise? I don't think so. I hypothosize that it's secondary to tightening emissions and to keep the bike ridable.

So in the end, in my mind, it is reasonable to compare my oilhead to your Duc. They are both just engines that combine fuel and air to produce power. Their layouts may be different, but in the end the EFI does the same thing. Problems with TB synched or being too lean are the same to all engines. Enjoy your bike. I enjoyed a test ride on an old ST2.

[st ryder]

I respectfully disagree...completely.  

Boxers were closed loop from the beginning in '93 here in the states. Some countries did get non-cat, open loop bikes, but in the states they were all closed loop. Here's Rob Lentini's fixes for surges. BMW's fix for this "nonproblem" has been dual plugs, and dual 02 sensors.

My "deja vu" comment comes from people complaining about bikes losing their smooth throttle transition as emisions tighten. Some reports stated the 6th generation VFR was very lean to meet emision early and some reports hinted that emisions are the reason for the VTEC. This is the first VFR I remember people complaining about this problem. The press complained about the second generation FZ1 having fueling problems. Was it secondary to the lean nature of the bike? I dunno, but I suspect.

Another reason for the "deja vu" comment was the writers of the wrenching columns for both Rider and Cycle World have at different times stated that bikes are incredibly lean today. If you change the intake or exhaust, you will most likely lean the bike further making the on/off transitions worse. I've seen this with my own EGA. A XX with carbs had two brothers slip ons. With the stock exhaust and warmed up, his CO reading was 1.9%. With the exhaust it dropped to 0.6% and was very snatchy. We lifted the needles in his slides and the CO came up to 2.3% and it pulls like a frieght train. It's very smooth as well.

In my experience, as you push the CO level below 2%, bikes become increasing "snatchy" and the carburation is set between 2-3% it smooths out nicely. Of course this assumes air filter is clean, carbs/TB's are synched and everything is tuned correctly.

If pride in ownership keeps you from realizing that bikes are becoming increasing lean, leading to difficulty with throttle transitions, that's cool. Both the ST3 and an oilhead are just engines. Hints of the difficulties engineers are having with throttle transitions are evident in R6's. (I'm currently helping a friend get one track ready.) Yamaha doesn't even allow a direct connection from the throttle to the intakes. It's controlled electronically. Some manufacturers have a second computer controlled butterfly to help smooth out engine response. Would a manufacturere do all this just for an engineering exercise? I don't think so. I hypothosize that it's secondary to tightening emissions and to keep the bike ridable.

So in the end, in my mind, it is reasonable to compare my oilhead to your Duc. They are both just engines that combine fuel and air to produce power. Their layouts may be different, but in the end the EFI does the same thing. Problems with TB synched or being too lean are the same to all engines. Enjoy your bike. I enjoyed a test ride on an old ST2.

Ducati gets EFI right, BMW doesn't.

Please don't compare major BMW oilhead boxer fueling problems with minor Ducati L-twin fueling problems as one is a massively reported and frustratingly uncorrectable issue for most boxer riders, and the other affects a few newer units and can be dialed in.

I'm not as in touch with the BMW message boards as I was 8 years ago since I came to realise through my ownership experience that BMW's are NOT good motorcycles, but sorry, one man's "fix" is another man's "one more thing that didn't work."  I won't get into BMWNA's oft reported indifferent attitudes, nor the widely reported K12S/R fueling issues that still haunt BMW, but BMW boxers are infamous for refractory surging problems, Ducatis L-twins are not, so how can you compare? Don't try and bring down a *very good* efi system by comparing it a very bad system because a few units have some issues, which may have been caused by the dealer's calibration equipment in the first place.  

BTW, my very smooth 2005 Ducati ST3 meets very tough emissions standards with *no* problems, and no, I don't live in a vacuum and am more than aware of both, the environmental law issues, and the mechanics behind EFI so please, take your EFI lecture on the road or back to the BMW boards so folks can "fix' theirs.    

Please see opening statement, and have a nice day.  

(oh, I live in Canada eh, so like the bikes we get here are different than US bikes sometimes)

[wvrider]

ummm, my 2000 BMW RT had NO surging problem....none....did run better with certain plugs and a good throttle body balance but really no problem.....My 2002 ST2 has always had a subtle but noticeable flat spot or stutter at around 3600 rpm....never dialed out via multiple attempts at multiple shops but helped with the Ducati performance chip (the FIM chip didnt help, made it worse) and some gearing changes so I rarely notice it now....I really do think the two are comparable...some units of each twin have issues probably for the same reason. Large twins using lean mixtures through throttle bodies that are picky (due to lean tune) to balance, fuel quality, spark and burn rate at certain rpm....some engines just exhibit more or less due to all the little things for that particular engine (I am not an engineer and slept at Motel 6 so cannot elaborate).

my .02
Phil

[st ryder]

ummm, my 2000 BMW RT had NO surging problem....none....did run better with certain plugs and a good throttle body balance but really no problem.....My 2002 ST2 has always had a subtle but noticeable flat spot or stutter at around 3600 rpm....never dialed out via multiple attempts at multiple shops but helped with the Ducati performance chip (the FIM chip didnt help, made it worse) and some gearing changes so I rarely notice it now....I really do think the two are comparable...some units of each twin have issues probably for the same reason. Large twins using lean mixtures through throttle bodies that are picky (due to lean tune) to balance, fuel quality, spark and burn rate at certain rpm....some engines just exhibit more or less due to all the little things for that particular engine (I am not an engineer and slept at Motel 6 so cannot elaborate).

my .02
Phil

Yes, and apples can be compared to oranges because they are both fruit, both have peels and both have seeds.

BMW boxer surging issues spanned 2 decades and in each of those years there was a significant number of owners who complained about their bikes surging and for whom there was no final resolution.

Ducati ST3 surging did not affect 2004 and 2005 models, but does seem to affect a significant number of 2006 and 2007 units since changing from an open loop to a Lambda closed loop system most of which have been or are being resolved by a manufacturer that is both, acknowledging a problem exists and working on a remap solution, and is not referring to the surging as a "feature" of their L-twins. Sorry, but there is no comparison in duration of the problem, intensity of the problem, frequency of the problem, nor in the response from the manufacturer.

If their is a "deja vu" element in EFI news, BMWs "flagship" K12s bike and it's trickle down variants also seemed plagued by surging and fueling issues, as BMW still can't seem to get it right. (is their ecu still referred to as the "Moronic"?) and IIRC even their thumper F series had surging issues.
 
Are both problems caused by lean conditions, or a poorly conceived and executed system of components that just don't work right? I'd say Ducati's recent surging issues is an effect of a system that still needs some tweaking after being altered to meet even higher emissions standards, but BMW's *history* of problems was mostly during a time when the emissions standards were not as stringent as they now are, and were/are caused by a poorly designed and executed system, much like, dare I say, their drive line problems, because in a similar vein to their EFI issues, others seem to get shaft drive right, BMW *still* doesn't.
 
BMW: the company that never learns but wants to teach.  

 

[hovmaven]

As mentioned above, lots of new FI bikes have this issue. The Euro regs are forcing the manufacturers to run the bikes incredibly lean.  That's why your research showed the most satidfactory solution is a fuel mapping mod.  

You can go green and live with it, or fly in the face of the green movement and fix it.

Oh the irony!    

I'm certain the bike will sort out, but that observation was priceless.  

[sfarson]

Ducati gets EFI right, BMW doesn't.

Please don't compare major BMW oilhead boxer fueling problems with minor Ducati L-twin fueling problems as one is a massively reported and frustratingly uncorrectable issue for most boxer riders, and the other affects a few newer units and can be dialed in.

I'm not as in touch with the BMW message boards as I was 8 years ago since I came to realise through my ownership experience that BMW's are NOT good motorcycles, but sorry, one man's "fix" is another man's "one more thing that didn't work."  I won't get into BMWNA's oft reported indifferent attitudes, nor the widely reported K12S/R fueling issues that still haunt BMW, but BMW boxers are infamous for refractory surging problems, Ducatis L-twins are not, so how can you compare? Don't try and bring down a *very good* efi system by comparing it a very bad system because a few units have some issues, which may have been caused by the dealer's calibration equipment in the first place.  

While you decry attempts to broadstroke Ducati with EFI problems you do the same to BMW with blanket comments.  Impressive.  I ride both and have more bikes from both than I should.  Zero EFI problems with any BMW's.  Oilhead surging for a minority was fixed years ago when the R bikes went dual spark... my single spark '01 R1100S had no problems.  One rarely comes across a dual spark surging post today at BMW boards, just as Bologna snatchiness is not a commonly seen thread or post.  My '05 K1200S has zero fueling problems.  None.  I checked with my large dealer on supposed hand wringing K bike fueling issues, purportedly solved with a software upgrade, and he had no owners bringing their K-Bikes in for fixes.  It is overblown and not common.

I have no problems with Ducati Superbikes, SS, or ST EFI.  I've had no problems with GS's, RT's, S's, or K-bikes the past seven years.  None.  Resist the temptation to draw blanket conclusions from the web, which are a magnet for problem reporting, or dated experiences you've had, then declare them to be accurate for all, ascribing the isssues as common to all riders of the make.  It doesn't help anyone.  Amazingly, you're bothered when an attempt is made to do this to Ducati, then you turn around and do it to BMW.

[SWriverstone]

One thing is clear, however—the surging issues with ST3's appear only to exist on '06 and later bikes. So I'd suggest that pre-'06 owners avoid the dialogue (said with a smile and not directed at anyone in particular).

Scott

[buckeye]

I'm a little late to the party, but here's my $0.02. I have a 2006 ST3s with close to 16K miles on it. Initially, the bike surged pretty badly around 4500-5000 RPM and below 3000 RPM which forced me to feather the clutch around tight corners and during slow parking lot maneuvers. The bike was ridable although annoying. TPS and TB adjustments improved the ridability somewhat, but the bike still surged noticeably. During the 6K maintenance interval, the service manager was able to get the adjustable DP ECU from DNA (covered under the warranty) and install it in place of the stock nonadjustable ECU. I had a grin a mile wide as I rode the bike home - it felt like a whole new bike with a smooooth throttle response all the way from idle to redline.   Unfortunately, DNA has been providing these aftermarket ECUs on a case-by-case basis only instead of issuing a general recall.  

[xbud]

  I had a similar problem on my ST4 when I first got it, then I added an Aftermarket exhaust, open air-box and a performance ECU chip and now the throttle twitch-ness is gone. It runs great no-problems and I gained a few horsepower.

[st ryder]

While you decry attempts to broadstroke Ducati with EFI problems you do the same to BMW with blanket comments.  Impressive.  

I have no problems with Ducati Superbikes, SS, or ST EFI.  I've had no problems with GS's, RT's, S's, or K-bikes the past seven years.  None.  Resist the temptation to draw blanket conclusions from the web, which are a magnet for problem reporting, or dated experiences you've had, then declare them to be accurate for all, ascribing the isssues as common to all riders of the make.  It doesn't help anyone.  Amazingly, you're bothered when an attempt is made to do this to Ducati, then you turn around and do it to BMW.

I draw no broadstroke conclusion other than what I've experienced and what is based on the web/net. There are far, far, far fewer complaints and issues re Ducati EFI than BMW EFI. That you have not experienced any does not invalidate the thousands who have. You suggest resisting drawing blanket conclusions from the web, and then offer your experience as what? I can't remember when I last read a review of a new BMW model where fuel metering was not an issue.

[st ryder]

One thing is clear, however surging issues with ST3's appear only to exist on '06 and later bikes. So I'd suggest that Prue-'06 owners avoid the dialogue (said with a smile and not directed at anyone in particular).

Scott

Not suggesting the comment was directed at me, but seriously, get real.  

[sfarson]

I draw no broadstroke conclusion other than what I've experienced and what is based on the web/net. There are far, far, far fewer complaints and issues re Ducati EFI than BMW EFI. That you have not experienced any does not invalidate the thousands who have. You suggest resisting drawing blanket conclusions from the web, and then offer your experience as what? I can't remember when I last read a review of a new BMW model where fuel metering was not an issue.

As I noted, update your database and references.  You've based claims from pre dual-spark days and from web K-bike problem reports - old info and hardly representative.  If you're claiming my no problem experiences are not reflective then don't claim yours as reflective.  Try to resist the hypocrisy of claiming BMW EFI as horrible, whitewashing it as reality for all current BMW models... while at the same time showing dismay when similar claims are made for only a single Ducati model.  Don't apply different standards.

Can't remember the last BMW review where EFI wasn't called out as an issue?  Egads, you just revealed you don't read BMW reviews yet act as an up to date expert on the make.  Here, I'll help you out.  Have found a place, even from your own country, with a fine list of BMW reviews, R and K bike.  Please point out in every article how the horrible EFI plaguing the model is called out...

http://www.onewheeldrive.net/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=157&Itemid=120

[st ryder]

As I noted, update your database and references.  You've based claims from pre dual-spark days and from web K-bike problem reports - old info and hardly representative.  If you're claiming my no problem experiences are not reflective then don't claim yours as reflective.  Try to resist the hypocrisy of claiming BMW EFI as horrible, whitewashing it as reality for all current BMW models... while at the same time showing dismay when similar claims are made for only a single Ducati model.  Don't apply different standards.

Can't remember the last BMW review where EFI wasn't called out as an issue?  Egads, you just revealed you don't read BMW reviews yet act as an up to date expert on the make.  Here, I'll help you out.  Have found a place, even from your own country, with a fine list of BMW reviews, R and K bike.  Please point out in every article how the horrible EFI plaguing the model is called out...

http://www.onewheeldrive.net/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=157&Itemid=120

Surely you don't take too seriously the reviews at OWD which are in effect well written ads for the manufacturers. Like Sir Alan, they don't ride bikes they don't like. I have already admitted I don't get to the BMW forums as much as I use to, but fueling issues are a problem even with new K 12 bikes as I'm sure most anybody who rides a bike and does not bury his head in the sand has read up on, so I won't get into a battle of links with you, and certainly don't need your "expert" help, but I will quote Kevin Ash, a respected motojournalist who has tested almost all new BMWs for a very long time and kisses no ass, commenting on the new r12r's(one of the few BMW's I'd consider) fueling. What does he know that you won't admit?:

"The fuel injection has been refined, working perfectly in all the situations I could conjure, even at the very small throttle openings that in the past have caused some hunting on BMW twins."

So, after 14 years, BMW seems to have it worked out boxer efi, but not on all models. During that time of pre dual spark heads, there were thousands of unhappy owners.

Oh and here are comments on K12s fueling from the same author:

"Snap open the throttle and you can never be quite sure just how hard or evenly the engine will pull."

"[riders] might instead be troubled by the bike's reluctance to maintain a constant speed on a light throttle at low revs."

Oh, and with respect to the new r1200s, a dual spark boxer, Mr Ash states:

"It feels as if the fuelling isn't quite right either,..."

I also skim through magazines from "your" country on occasion, who have also reported issues with BMW fueling, but believe what you like even if the fact of the matter is anybody can do the research and discover there have been long standing issues with BMW efi, and with the corporate response to dissatisfied and disillusioned owners that the fuelling problems you claim don't exist are a "feature of the bike." Why would BMWNA in effect acknowledge there's an issue with fueling as they brush off complaints from owners with that "let them eat cake" explanation of a problem you say doesn't exist?  

[sfarson]

Ahhh... Now you're beginning to clarify and soften your blanket statements.  Maybe it isn't every bike, maybe it isn't every review, maybe BMW forums aren't visited often, maybe it was pre-dual spark from years ago... and this has been the point all along:  You issue statements as if EFI issues are BMW universal, reflective for all, and current, as you amazingly criticize those saying making the same broad statements about Ducati.

BTW, expand and widen your reference/reviewer pool.  The Brit Kevin Ash is no more "respected" than the many others out there writing for major publications.  Many BMW owners scratch their heads wondering where Mr. Ash is coming from, not observing or sharing his p-o-v at all, whether it is the R12R or the K12S.  And this isn't just BMW owners.  While Ash panned the '05 K1200S, MCN here gave the K1200S the rare five stars and Motorrad gave the bike its highest score ever, replacing the previous record holder, the venerable VFR.  The EFI wasn't an issue.  Too bad you relied upon Ash's R12R review... many other reviews are glowing about the bike and don't mention the EFI.

[st ryder]

Aha... Now you're beginning to clarify and soften your blanket statements.  Maybe it isn't every bike, maybe it isn't every review, maybe BMW forums aren't visited often, maybe it was pre-dual spark from years ago... and this has been the point all along:  You issue statements as if EFI issues are BMW universal, reflective for all, and current, as you amazingly criticize those saying making the same broad statements about Ducati.

BTW, expand and widen your reference/reviewer pool.  The Brit Kevin Ash is no more "respected" than the many others out there writing for major publications.  Many BMW owners scratch their heads wondering where Mr. Ash is coming from, not observing or sharing his p-o-v at all, whether it is the R12R or the K12S.  And this isn't just BMW owners.  While Ash panned the '05 K1200S, MCN here gave the K1200S the rare five stars and Motorrad gave the bike its highest score ever, replacing the previous record holder, the venerable VFR.  The EFI wasn't an issue.  Too bad you relied upon Ash's R12R review... many other reviews are glowing about the bike and don't mention the EFI.

Okay, I'll expand my reference pool. Here are just a few clips from a few entries at another site you like to hang around and deny surging exists: (oh, these are *actual* boxer owners, not motojournalists)

"The rest are made up of two groups: owners that are lucky that their GS doesn't surge and owners that have trouble admitting to something as embarrassing as a surging mega dollar bike."
(I suspect he's talking about guys like you in the second group   and if you didn't get the inference, that all GS's surge)

"My GS surges like a fucking pig. Next summer I'll install the Techlusion control box (http://www.techlusion.com/zIntro.htm) and that doesn't fix it, I'll be looking back to Jap bikes."
(oh my, egad, a fucking pig!)

"Been riding bikes for about 25 years. Heard about the surging, but didn't experience it 'til I got my 1100 GS."
(oh, must have been his first BMW  )

"My 01 1150GS with 22k miles has a definite surge between 3000-3500 rpm."
(oh, a definite surge. Isn't that the rev range Mr Ash speaks about?)

"This (problems with BMWs) is the biggest problem with surging. Because it gets reported alot and is the biggest problem. But because some folks do not have the ability to notice it, whether it is a mental block or they can't feel it, they say it doesn't exsist. So you get a percentage of riders that deny their bike surges."
(I think he too is speaking about you again  )

BMW boxer motorcycles have had prominent surging issues from 1993 through to 2003: that's ten years of the same BS, but you choose to focus on 2004 and later dual spark heads, THAT STILL SURGE!!. Do I really need to clarify which model years I'm speaking about when speaking about BMW twin surging?  Do you want serial numbers as well?

I can cite entries from just about any BMW site in just about any language you choose, report after report from owners of BMWs with surging issues.

There are very good reasons why I chose to purchase a new Ducati rather than a BMW, not the least being I am an informed person: BMWs have fueling issues and drive line issues which they have not been able to resolve for decades. Surely you now won't start denying BMW has drive line issues with the same silly obfuscation tactics you employ while denying surging is a problem?

My point was and is, please don't taint Ducati fueling issues as being similar to BMW issues. That would be like saying Ducati has had surging issues for 14 years, and this is not the case.

I'll sign off on this thread by reiterating: Ducati gets efi right, BMW doesn't.    

[sfarson]

Egads, wake up!!!  You're citing pre-dual spark bikes from years ago!!!  This was already mentioned.  Do you not read?  Not only that, you're drawing old conclusions from the web as being reflective of all today.  BTW, I rode an 1150GS for years without any surging.  Man, if I were like you I'd be telling everyone not to buy Hondas because of stator problems or ST3's because of throttle snatchiness because I read it on the web.  You're striking out man and it is because your head is in the sand.

Will make it easy for you.  Let's take it offline.  You mentioned never reading a review where BMW fueling wasn't called out as an issue.  Here's your chance.  Let's look at reviews of the the R1200GS and R1200RT.  BMW's two largest selling models.  Prove your point.  Prove you have no bias.  PM me the links to every review calling the EFI out as a problem for these two models.  Every review.  It is what you said.  Actually you already have strike three.  I have links to several reviews and it isn't called out at all, a non-issue and not "moronic" as you so impressively wrote.

BTW, surely you know about the EFI stalling issues with the 1098.  Many reports on the web.  Surely you know about Ducati NA's lack of response.  Many reports on the web.  Oh, and forum posts on the web are so accurate.  And Ducati gets EFI but BMW doesn't.  Sure.  Glad I don't follow your advice.  No issues with the 1098 here.

[ZED]

I thought this was a Ducati discussion?

How'd I end up in beamer'vile

 

[Oilhed]

Nothing wrong with the throttle on my ST3. It's got power when I need it and no twitchiness. Nothing but ear-to-ear grins since I've had it.

Ditto!  I have a '05 and it's the smoothest twin I've ever ridden from low RPMs to redline.

[sagerat]

I thought this was a Ducati discussion?

How'd I end up in beamer'vile

 

Ze Germans haft to invade periodically to keep zer blood pressure down.

[ColdDuc]

I'm a little late to the party, but here's my $0.02. I have a 2006 ST3s with close to 16K miles on it. Initially, the bike surged pretty badly around 4500-5000 RPM and below 3000 RPM which forced me to feather the clutch around tight corners and during slow parking lot maneuvers. The bike was ridable although annoying. TPS and TB adjustments improved the ridability somewhat, but the bike still surged noticeably. During the 6K maintenance interval, the service manager was able to get the adjustable DP ECU from DNA (covered under the warranty) and install it in place of the stock nonadjustable ECU. I had a grin a mile wide as I rode the bike home - it felt like a whole new bike with a smooooth throttle response all the way from idle to redline.   Unfortunately, DNA has been providing these aftermarket ECUs on a case-by-case basis only instead of issuing a general recall.  

I'm also late to this party, but to bring us back around to where we started ----

I too had surging problems with my '06 ST3s. Took a few trips to the dealer, but they were able to fix it and it is fantastic. The bike pulls great from about 2800 on up. Very smooth when locked in at constant throttle, no problem to power wheelie in first gear. They can fix this.

[ZED]

Talked to a very informed Ducati dealer yesterday.  He's been wrenching on them for something like 30 years.  One of my big questions was the surging issues and how much latitude did he have to tune the EFI control loop to solve the problem.  His response was that once they introduced the closed loop O2 sensor (2006 I think he said) they removed a lot of the mechanics tuning ability from the ECU.  In his experience he has seen that the surging varies significantly from one bike to the next.  If it is a problem, they install the performance ECU that allows them the tuning latitude required to solve the customers problem.  Oh, and that's performed under warranty.

Scott, how did the ST3 turn out after it's first checkup?  Did they manage to tame the savage surge?

[RickC1957]

Sorry late to this thread....I have been riding

Plain and simple Scott....put down the crack pipe....NO WAY is the VFR a better machine than the ST3. Yes I'm biased The VFR is a fat ugly pig, and has all the handling of one....sorry I have ridden both. The ST3 is clearly the better handling bike. As for the throttle response, you twist the throttle on the ST3, the bike "leaps" forward, front end gets light, and it feels like my arms are being pulled of the shoulder sockets....personally I love that My only complaint about the ST3 is the gearing is tall, but I have come to live with it. You think the ST3 is geared tall, or has abrupt throttle response, come, I'll let you ride my brand new Sport 1000, then we will talk;)

[atadaskew]

While I wouldn't call the VFr a fat ugly pig, I would agree with Rick.
When I was deciding on getting an St type bike I test rode the VFr and then the Duc st4s (never rode a Duc before).  While the st4s makes more powah than the St3, it's still similar unless you go wide open throttle.  Anyway, the VFR did feel heavy, slow and unresponsive compared to the Duc.  There just was no excitement in it whatsoever, and sport type bikes should be exciting, even if they're sport tourers.
Anyway, each to their own etc etc
p.s. I like the previous generation VFR much more.  Guess that's what more torque and less weight does for it..

[Mostrogirl]

Scott,

Sorry for the late response.

As you know I have the ST4S.  I haven't experienced any of the throttle problems that Holly's bike is having. My throttle is very responsive and of course leaps when you accelerate but I simply love the acceleration.  Gearing is tall but manageable.  

I wouldn't trade my ST4S in a million years!!!!    

[RickC1957]

While I wouldn't call the VFr a fat ugly pig, I would agree with Rick.
When I was deciding on getting an St type bike I test rode the VFr and then the Duc st4s (never rode a Duc before).  While the st4s makes more powah than the St3, it's still similar unless you go wide open throttle.  Anyway, the VFR did feel heavy, slow and unresponsive compared to the Duc.  There just was no excitement in it whatsoever, and sport type bikes should be exciting, even if they're sport tourers.
Anyway, each to their own etc etc
p.s. I like the previous generation VFR much more.  Guess that's what more torque and less weight does for it..

To all VFR fans....I was overstatings my percieved short comings of the VFR....it's a great bike...but I rode the VFR and then immediately rode the ST3. Hence my comments....just over stating to make a point.

[Rogue]

You're a smart man for backpedalling.  

For a minute there you Eye-talians were about to have a two-front war against the Germans and Japanese.  

[RickC1957]

You're a smart man for backpedalling.  

For a minute there you Eye-talians were about to have a two-front war against the Germans and Japanese.  

I usually dive into arguements...it's more fun that way You should see me go off on Yosh's new ride

[SWriverstone]

Hey all...I'm doing my "two-months-late-to-the-party" response here!  

After we took the ST3 to DucPond Motorsports, Donnie Unger did do *something* to the ECU/FI (though we have no idea what) and it is somewhat smoother and less twitchy now. He also went down a tooth on the front sprocket to lower the gearing (I think? Or maybe he added a tooth in back? Can't remember...) And that definitely makes the bike more usable without sacrificing the killer acceleration.

Final additions were a Givi topcase (very nice!) and a pair of Feracci carbon-fiber pipes that are SHWEET!!! They sound incredible---the most beautiful, deep-throated growl you can imagine (and totally worthy of a Duc!). Interestingly, the Feracci's are lighter than the OEM pipes, cost less, look better, and sound twice as good!  

I actually need to hop on the Duc for a ride sometime...I haven't ridden it in six weeks since I've been loving my Wee Strom so much!  

Scott

PS - Though I don't miss my VFR one bit, I still think it was a great bike!  

[ZED]

Thanks for the update Scott.  

Has Holly noticed a difference in the surging depending upon the outside air temperature?  I'm finding that mine doesn't surge when it's cool (like fall on a mountain pass), but does somewhat when it's T-shirt weather.  This morning was a good example.  No surging going to work in the morning (almost freezing), but some rough idling and surging when I came home.

[SWriverstone]

Hi Zed...no, Holly hasn't really noticed anything like that (weather-dependent)...but then she's a woman, and never notices things like that. LOL (Meaning, she just rides the thing!  )

But you've got me curious...so I'll have to take it for some rides on cold/hot days...

Scott

[ZED]

Hey that's OK!  Glad she's liking it.  

Glad to hear they got it tamed a bit too.  Min definitely surges, but not so much that I regret getting it.  Once you get the thing moving at a decent clip the handling reminds you that it's a thuroughbred.