Underwhelmed by the ST3

[SWriverstone]

Well, there must not be many '06-07 ST3 owners on this forum! I've been doing some digging around over on Ducati.ms, and apparently the problem that Mr. Squidward mentioned above is a common problem. There have been MANY ST3 owners who have complained of surging...not good!  

I've been able to identify a few solutions:

1. TB synch
2. TPS issues/settings
3. (Most successful) Ducati Performance cans/airbox/ECU kit

The D.P. kit seems to have everyone raving about the performance improvements...but it's expensive! (Like $1,700 installed.) Which begs the question, should a new ST3 owner have to fork out another $1,700 just to get the bike to run well?

In any event, I'm glad my observations have been more than confirmed: there are definitely known, documented surging issues with '06 (and newer) ST3s.

Scott

[SWriverstone]

But isn't that when the power kicks in? Why would you ride your bike out of the powerband?  

I dunno—where I ride the VFR (on super-technical, 2nd-gear twisties) if you're engaging VTEC, you've decided to commit suicide!   I get plenty of thrills keeping the revs below 7K, which is where VTEC kicks in on my bike. Furthermore, the few times I have engaged VTEC, I felt nothing but a silky-smooth transition.

Apparently, the truth about VTEC is similar to the surging issue in ST3s: some people have a rough transition, others don't. My bike feels awesome when VTEC kicks in—just a change in the engine sound, with no bump or jerk at all.

Scott

[Windblown]

As mentioned above, lots of new FI bikes have this issue. The Euro regs are forcing the manufacturers to run the bikes incredibly lean.  That's why your research showed the most satidfactory solution is a fuel mapping mod.  

You can go green and live with it, or fly in the face of the green movement and fix it.

Oh the irony!    

[Sarchi]

Something's gotta be wrong with the EFI control unit.  I would take it back to the dealer and make them test ride it.  Or could it be bad gas?  I assume you're still on the first tankful.

Hope things smooth out for you Scott.  I love the ST3 too, at least from sitting on them.

[DNA]

The more I hear - the more I think moody Triumphs rock!

When comparing the 2 bikes, which will spend the most time in the shop?

Shop time smackdown #1: ST Duck VS VTEC VFR

[Windblown]

The more I hear - the more I think moody Triumphs rock!

That's because they do!  I miss mine.    

I'm betting the dealer Scott & Holly bought the Duc from from will get ithings squared away in short order though.  

[RideWV]

+1

I'm thinking the dealer will make it right.  Maybe not as smooth as the VFR but good enough.  So far, nothing beats a well tuned set of carbs for feel though.  I've test ridden 5 bikes in the last week, all FI, and they all felt snatchy to me.  My GPZ is smoooooooth like butta'.

James

[photomd]

It's deja vu all over again: Sounds like BWM owners 10 years ago.  

Honestly Scott, I don't know what it is, but my hunch is that it's lean. My oilhead surged for awhile until I tuned it juuuuusssst riiight: Throttle postion Sensor set, and very carefull synch with new cables (another BMW "quirk" ). I still have some surge if the throttle bodies get outta synch and it tends happen with gas that I hypothosize have lots of additives. Exxon seems to be the worse.

Anyway, good luck with it. It's a pretty bike. I hope y'all can get 'er tuned to your liking. My bet is a custom fuel map or box to richen the mixture will fix your problem. If you richen it, see if you have a catalytic converter. You may need to remove it as a rich mixture might clog it. HTH's.  

[kendenton]

Apparently, the truth about VTEC is similar to the surging issue in ST3s: some people have a rough transition, others don't. My bike feels awesome when VTEC kicks in—just a change in the engine sound, with no bump or jerk at all.

Scott

I demo'd a VFR for the first time at Americade last week, and on that bike the VTEC was like an afterburner kicking in.  VERY abrupt, not at all smooth.  I also noticed that if I crept up on the transition with a very slow throttle increase, it...paused....for a heartbeat before switching modes.  rrrrr...RRRRR.  Very weird feeling.

[keystonejenks]

The more I hear - the more I think moody Triumphs rock!

That's how I feel. My Triumph has given me issues and I'm ready to spit tea all over the thing. I cuss it and say all kinds of nasty things about it; but then I go out for a ride and all is forgiven.

Scott, the great thing about small dealers (especially Euro dealers) is they want to keep their customers happy because they're trying to develop clients.  They're usually very passionate too. I have a hunch that if you took the bike back to them with your concerns, they'd try whatever they could to make things right.

[st ryder]

It's deja vu all over again: Sounds like BWM owners 10 years ago.  

Not quite: virtually all BMW's boxers surged for more than a decade (still do afaik, as now also do K's) using open loop efi  for the most part, which was referred to as a "feature" of the bikes by BMWNA when thousands of owners complained to their dealers, and was/is virtually not able to be tuned -out.

OTOH, only some 2006/7 ST3's have this issue since they went to closed loop to meet Euro III emissions standrads, and *can* be properly tuned. My 2005 ST3 has always ran like a top since day one: no surging/fueling issues what-so-ever. Any "snatchiness" in the throttle was tuned out by my right wrist and left foot action over time and experience.

Ducati open loop EFI is *very* good, and it seems their closed loop can be resolved *if* there's any fueling issue. Please, do no taint Ducati's good EFI name with shades of BMW-like problems, as they are worlds apart.    

[sagerat]

One man's twitchiness is another's responsiveness.  

I'm sure the Duc dealer can get it dialed in.

The Beemers did surge until the dualspark oilheads came in which cured the problem.  Think the dualsparks started in 2003?

My '02 Viffer was the first year of VTEC and while it was noticeable the VTEC coming on wasn't quite the "afterburner JATO jump to warp drive, Scottie phenomenon" that some experienced.  Even when leaned over in mid-corner the VTEC wasn't that big of a deal.

[photomd]

Not quite: virtually all BMW's boxers surged for more than a decade (still do afaik, as now also do K's) using open loop efi  for the most part, which was referred to as a "feature" of the bikes by BMWNA when thousands of owners complained to their dealers, and was/is virtually not able to be tuned -out.

OTOH, only some 2006/7 ST3's have this issue since they went to closed loop to meet Euro III emissions standrads, and *can* be properly tuned. My 2005 ST3 has always ran like a top since day one: no surging/fueling issues what-so-ever. Any "snatchiness" in the throttle was tuned out by my right wrist and left foot action over time and experience.

Ducati open loop EFI is *very* good, and it seems their closed loop can be resolved *if* there's any fueling issue. Please, do no taint Ducati's good EFI name with shades of BMW-like problems, as they are worlds apart.    

...umm...OK.  

pssst....BMW's are closed loop and installing a Techlusion box would fix it, at least it did for several riders I've talked to. Also stick an EGA up any modern bike and you'll be amazed at the low reading, especially once the cat comes up to temp.  

Scott, I hope it all ends up good. Holly looks great on that bike.  

[Aero]

Scott, I took the liberty of copying your post to the Yahoo Ducati ST owners group to see what other ST3 owners had experienced, and although some have had surging issues a good dealer can sort it out for you without spending big bucks on the DP kit. You can check out the replies starting at message number 95537. Don't despair, just treat it as teething troubles!
Allen

[SWriverstone]

Thanks Aero—interesting posts over there. I appreciate all the feedback, and I'm not about to declare the ST3 a waste of money! Aside from this surging issue, it's an awesome bike. I have to admit I feel more planted and stable railing through corners on the ST3 than I do on my VFR! And the sound is heavenly!

The dealer is a good guy, and I'm sure he'll do something about it. That being said, I'm always perplexed why dealers aren't more conscientious about researching these kinds of issues on all the bikes they sell—it really doesn't take that much time. For example, I could take any model Ducati, spend an hour googling things like "[model name] trouble issues problems" and easily come up with a pretty thorough representation of the types and degree of problems owners have been having. Then I'd know to be on the lookout for these issues and have solutions ready.

Oh well...hopefully it can be worked out under warranty without great expense. (Then again, I've heard so many rave reviews of the DP kit upgrade that I'm thinking it still might be worth the $1700 or whatever to do it!)

Scott

[bizarro]

You should never, EVER have to spend $1700 on a brand new bike to get it to run properly. EVER.

That being said, I'm sure your dealer will get it sussed if he can.

[2cats]

I've ridden three different ST3's in three different years, starting with 2004 and finishing with one a couple of months ago, and I felt the same way about all three bikes.  Nasty throttle response.  

[elmandarino]

Just thought I would add my ten pennysworth. I have ridden a lot of bikes and I have to say that my 2005 ST3 is beautifully smooth. So much so I noticed almost immediately as worth commenting upon. The reason for saying this is that it shows that it can be sorted. Hope that cheers you (and Holly up).

[Aero]

Oh well...hopefully it can be worked out under warranty without great expense. (Then again, I've heard so many rave reviews of the DP kit upgrade that I'm thinking it still might be worth the $1700 or whatever to do it!)
Scott

Hmm, maybe the dealer would consider doing a REALLY good deal on the DP kit if he doesn't have to spend hours doing warranty work to sort it out? The kit is pretty much plug-n-play I believe? Just a thought.  

[st ryder]

...umm...OK.  

pssst....BMW's are closed loop and installing a Techlusion box would fix it, at least it did for several riders I've talked to. Also stick an EGA up any modern bike and you'll be amazed at the low reading, especially once the cat comes up to temp.  

Scott, I hope it all ends up good. Holly looks great on that bike.  

Umm, okay,  ....Psst, my '87 BMW is open loop.   AFAIK, there is NO fix for a surging BMW boxer that works for everybody.