Underwhelmed by the ST3

[photomd]

Umm, okay,  ....Psst, my '87 BMW is open loop.   AFAIK, there is NO fix for a surging BMW boxer that works for everybody.  

So does your K- bike surge?

[st ryder]

So does your K- bike surge?

Runs like an electric motor,   "on-off" switch included,   and its due for its yearly spline lube   if I decide to go to Vancouver this year.  

But we're talking about the thousands of boxers with open loop and thousands of newer K's with closed loops that surge, not mid-eighties K bikes that don't, well at least not the superior k75 anyways.  

My point is, you cannot compare any fueling issues some Ducati's may have with BMW's fiasco, ie "deja vu all over again": When it comes to EFI, Ducati get's it right, BMW don't. My 2005 ST3 fueling has always been spot on, and *once* I got used to the throttle "responsiveness" (I like that), and the right gearing to match L-twin torque/revs with road speed, very smooth. My ST3 is the most fun and most reliable bike I've ever owned, not to discount any negative experiences some closed loop ST3 owners are dealing with, which from what I've read and heard, can and will be sorted out; again, very un-BMW like.    

Please, don't compare my EFI Ducati L-twin's fuel metering with a BMW boxer.  It's just wrong.  

[photomd]

I respectfully disagree...completely.  

Boxers were closed loop from the beginning in '93 here in the states. Some countries did get non-cat, open loop bikes, but in the states they were all closed loop. Here's Rob Lentini's fixes for surges. BMW's fix for this "nonproblem" has been dual plugs, and dual 02 sensors.

My "deja vu" comment comes from people complaining about bikes losing their smooth throttle transition as emisions tighten. Some reports stated the 6th generation VFR was very lean to meet emision early and some reports hinted that emisions are the reason for the VTEC. This is the first VFR I remember people complaining about this problem. The press complained about the second generation FZ1 having fueling problems. Was it secondary to the lean nature of the bike? I dunno, but I suspect.

Another reason for the "deja vu" comment was the writers of the wrenching columns for both Rider and Cycle World have at different times stated that bikes are incredibly lean today. If you change the intake or exhaust, you will most likely lean the bike further making the on/off transitions worse. I've seen this with my own EGA. A XX with carbs had two brothers slip ons. With the stock exhaust and warmed up, his CO reading was 1.9%. With the exhaust it dropped to 0.6% and was very snatchy. We lifted the needles in his slides and the CO came up to 2.3% and it pulls like a frieght train. It's very smooth as well.

In my experience, as you push the CO level below 2%, bikes become increasing "snatchy" and the carburation is set between 2-3% it smooths out nicely. Of course this assumes air filter is clean, carbs/TB's are synched and everything is tuned correctly.

If pride in ownership keeps you from realizing that bikes are becoming increasing lean, leading to difficulty with throttle transitions, that's cool. Both the ST3 and an oilhead are just engines. Hints of the difficulties engineers are having with throttle transitions are evident in R6's. (I'm currently helping a friend get one track ready.) Yamaha doesn't even allow a direct connection from the throttle to the intakes. It's controlled electronically. Some manufacturers have a second computer controlled butterfly to help smooth out engine response. Would a manufacturere do all this just for an engineering exercise? I don't think so. I hypothosize that it's secondary to tightening emissions and to keep the bike ridable.

So in the end, in my mind, it is reasonable to compare my oilhead to your Duc. They are both just engines that combine fuel and air to produce power. Their layouts may be different, but in the end the EFI does the same thing. Problems with TB synched or being too lean are the same to all engines. Enjoy your bike. I enjoyed a test ride on an old ST2.

[st ryder]

I respectfully disagree...completely.  

Boxers were closed loop from the beginning in '93 here in the states. Some countries did get non-cat, open loop bikes, but in the states they were all closed loop. Here's Rob Lentini's fixes for surges. BMW's fix for this "nonproblem" has been dual plugs, and dual 02 sensors.

My "deja vu" comment comes from people complaining about bikes losing their smooth throttle transition as emisions tighten. Some reports stated the 6th generation VFR was very lean to meet emision early and some reports hinted that emisions are the reason for the VTEC. This is the first VFR I remember people complaining about this problem. The press complained about the second generation FZ1 having fueling problems. Was it secondary to the lean nature of the bike? I dunno, but I suspect.

Another reason for the "deja vu" comment was the writers of the wrenching columns for both Rider and Cycle World have at different times stated that bikes are incredibly lean today. If you change the intake or exhaust, you will most likely lean the bike further making the on/off transitions worse. I've seen this with my own EGA. A XX with carbs had two brothers slip ons. With the stock exhaust and warmed up, his CO reading was 1.9%. With the exhaust it dropped to 0.6% and was very snatchy. We lifted the needles in his slides and the CO came up to 2.3% and it pulls like a frieght train. It's very smooth as well.

In my experience, as you push the CO level below 2%, bikes become increasing "snatchy" and the carburation is set between 2-3% it smooths out nicely. Of course this assumes air filter is clean, carbs/TB's are synched and everything is tuned correctly.

If pride in ownership keeps you from realizing that bikes are becoming increasing lean, leading to difficulty with throttle transitions, that's cool. Both the ST3 and an oilhead are just engines. Hints of the difficulties engineers are having with throttle transitions are evident in R6's. (I'm currently helping a friend get one track ready.) Yamaha doesn't even allow a direct connection from the throttle to the intakes. It's controlled electronically. Some manufacturers have a second computer controlled butterfly to help smooth out engine response. Would a manufacturere do all this just for an engineering exercise? I don't think so. I hypothosize that it's secondary to tightening emissions and to keep the bike ridable.

So in the end, in my mind, it is reasonable to compare my oilhead to your Duc. They are both just engines that combine fuel and air to produce power. Their layouts may be different, but in the end the EFI does the same thing. Problems with TB synched or being too lean are the same to all engines. Enjoy your bike. I enjoyed a test ride on an old ST2.

Ducati gets EFI right, BMW doesn't.

Please don't compare major BMW oilhead boxer fueling problems with minor Ducati L-twin fueling problems as one is a massively reported and frustratingly uncorrectable issue for most boxer riders, and the other affects a few newer units and can be dialed in.

I'm not as in touch with the BMW message boards as I was 8 years ago since I came to realise through my ownership experience that BMW's are NOT good motorcycles, but sorry, one man's "fix" is another man's "one more thing that didn't work."  I won't get into BMWNA's oft reported indifferent attitudes, nor the widely reported K12S/R fueling issues that still haunt BMW, but BMW boxers are infamous for refractory surging problems, Ducatis L-twins are not, so how can you compare? Don't try and bring down a *very good* efi system by comparing it a very bad system because a few units have some issues, which may have been caused by the dealer's calibration equipment in the first place.  

BTW, my very smooth 2005 Ducati ST3 meets very tough emissions standards with *no* problems, and no, I don't live in a vacuum and am more than aware of both, the environmental law issues, and the mechanics behind EFI so please, take your EFI lecture on the road or back to the BMW boards so folks can "fix' theirs.    

Please see opening statement, and have a nice day.  

(oh, I live in Canada eh, so like the bikes we get here are different than US bikes sometimes)

[wvrider]

ummm, my 2000 BMW RT had NO surging problem....none....did run better with certain plugs and a good throttle body balance but really no problem.....My 2002 ST2 has always had a subtle but noticeable flat spot or stutter at around 3600 rpm....never dialed out via multiple attempts at multiple shops but helped with the Ducati performance chip (the FIM chip didnt help, made it worse) and some gearing changes so I rarely notice it now....I really do think the two are comparable...some units of each twin have issues probably for the same reason. Large twins using lean mixtures through throttle bodies that are picky (due to lean tune) to balance, fuel quality, spark and burn rate at certain rpm....some engines just exhibit more or less due to all the little things for that particular engine (I am not an engineer and slept at Motel 6 so cannot elaborate).

my .02
Phil

[st ryder]

ummm, my 2000 BMW RT had NO surging problem....none....did run better with certain plugs and a good throttle body balance but really no problem.....My 2002 ST2 has always had a subtle but noticeable flat spot or stutter at around 3600 rpm....never dialed out via multiple attempts at multiple shops but helped with the Ducati performance chip (the FIM chip didnt help, made it worse) and some gearing changes so I rarely notice it now....I really do think the two are comparable...some units of each twin have issues probably for the same reason. Large twins using lean mixtures through throttle bodies that are picky (due to lean tune) to balance, fuel quality, spark and burn rate at certain rpm....some engines just exhibit more or less due to all the little things for that particular engine (I am not an engineer and slept at Motel 6 so cannot elaborate).

my .02
Phil

Yes, and apples can be compared to oranges because they are both fruit, both have peels and both have seeds.

BMW boxer surging issues spanned 2 decades and in each of those years there was a significant number of owners who complained about their bikes surging and for whom there was no final resolution.

Ducati ST3 surging did not affect 2004 and 2005 models, but does seem to affect a significant number of 2006 and 2007 units since changing from an open loop to a Lambda closed loop system most of which have been or are being resolved by a manufacturer that is both, acknowledging a problem exists and working on a remap solution, and is not referring to the surging as a "feature" of their L-twins. Sorry, but there is no comparison in duration of the problem, intensity of the problem, frequency of the problem, nor in the response from the manufacturer.

If their is a "deja vu" element in EFI news, BMWs "flagship" K12s bike and it's trickle down variants also seemed plagued by surging and fueling issues, as BMW still can't seem to get it right. (is their ecu still referred to as the "Moronic"?) and IIRC even their thumper F series had surging issues.
 
Are both problems caused by lean conditions, or a poorly conceived and executed system of components that just don't work right? I'd say Ducati's recent surging issues is an effect of a system that still needs some tweaking after being altered to meet even higher emissions standards, but BMW's *history* of problems was mostly during a time when the emissions standards were not as stringent as they now are, and were/are caused by a poorly designed and executed system, much like, dare I say, their drive line problems, because in a similar vein to their EFI issues, others seem to get shaft drive right, BMW *still* doesn't.
 
BMW: the company that never learns but wants to teach.  

 

[hovmaven]

As mentioned above, lots of new FI bikes have this issue. The Euro regs are forcing the manufacturers to run the bikes incredibly lean.  That's why your research showed the most satidfactory solution is a fuel mapping mod.  

You can go green and live with it, or fly in the face of the green movement and fix it.

Oh the irony!    

I'm certain the bike will sort out, but that observation was priceless.  

[sfarson]

Ducati gets EFI right, BMW doesn't.

Please don't compare major BMW oilhead boxer fueling problems with minor Ducati L-twin fueling problems as one is a massively reported and frustratingly uncorrectable issue for most boxer riders, and the other affects a few newer units and can be dialed in.

I'm not as in touch with the BMW message boards as I was 8 years ago since I came to realise through my ownership experience that BMW's are NOT good motorcycles, but sorry, one man's "fix" is another man's "one more thing that didn't work."  I won't get into BMWNA's oft reported indifferent attitudes, nor the widely reported K12S/R fueling issues that still haunt BMW, but BMW boxers are infamous for refractory surging problems, Ducatis L-twins are not, so how can you compare? Don't try and bring down a *very good* efi system by comparing it a very bad system because a few units have some issues, which may have been caused by the dealer's calibration equipment in the first place.  

While you decry attempts to broadstroke Ducati with EFI problems you do the same to BMW with blanket comments.  Impressive.  I ride both and have more bikes from both than I should.  Zero EFI problems with any BMW's.  Oilhead surging for a minority was fixed years ago when the R bikes went dual spark... my single spark '01 R1100S had no problems.  One rarely comes across a dual spark surging post today at BMW boards, just as Bologna snatchiness is not a commonly seen thread or post.  My '05 K1200S has zero fueling problems.  None.  I checked with my large dealer on supposed hand wringing K bike fueling issues, purportedly solved with a software upgrade, and he had no owners bringing their K-Bikes in for fixes.  It is overblown and not common.

I have no problems with Ducati Superbikes, SS, or ST EFI.  I've had no problems with GS's, RT's, S's, or K-bikes the past seven years.  None.  Resist the temptation to draw blanket conclusions from the web, which are a magnet for problem reporting, or dated experiences you've had, then declare them to be accurate for all, ascribing the isssues as common to all riders of the make.  It doesn't help anyone.  Amazingly, you're bothered when an attempt is made to do this to Ducati, then you turn around and do it to BMW.

[SWriverstone]

One thing is clear, however—the surging issues with ST3's appear only to exist on '06 and later bikes. So I'd suggest that pre-'06 owners avoid the dialogue (said with a smile and not directed at anyone in particular).

Scott

[buckeye]

I'm a little late to the party, but here's my $0.02. I have a 2006 ST3s with close to 16K miles on it. Initially, the bike surged pretty badly around 4500-5000 RPM and below 3000 RPM which forced me to feather the clutch around tight corners and during slow parking lot maneuvers. The bike was ridable although annoying. TPS and TB adjustments improved the ridability somewhat, but the bike still surged noticeably. During the 6K maintenance interval, the service manager was able to get the adjustable DP ECU from DNA (covered under the warranty) and install it in place of the stock nonadjustable ECU. I had a grin a mile wide as I rode the bike home - it felt like a whole new bike with a smooooth throttle response all the way from idle to redline.   Unfortunately, DNA has been providing these aftermarket ECUs on a case-by-case basis only instead of issuing a general recall.  

[xbud]

  I had a similar problem on my ST4 when I first got it, then I added an Aftermarket exhaust, open air-box and a performance ECU chip and now the throttle twitch-ness is gone. It runs great no-problems and I gained a few horsepower.

[st ryder]

While you decry attempts to broadstroke Ducati with EFI problems you do the same to BMW with blanket comments.  Impressive.  

I have no problems with Ducati Superbikes, SS, or ST EFI.  I've had no problems with GS's, RT's, S's, or K-bikes the past seven years.  None.  Resist the temptation to draw blanket conclusions from the web, which are a magnet for problem reporting, or dated experiences you've had, then declare them to be accurate for all, ascribing the isssues as common to all riders of the make.  It doesn't help anyone.  Amazingly, you're bothered when an attempt is made to do this to Ducati, then you turn around and do it to BMW.

I draw no broadstroke conclusion other than what I've experienced and what is based on the web/net. There are far, far, far fewer complaints and issues re Ducati EFI than BMW EFI. That you have not experienced any does not invalidate the thousands who have. You suggest resisting drawing blanket conclusions from the web, and then offer your experience as what? I can't remember when I last read a review of a new BMW model where fuel metering was not an issue.

[st ryder]

One thing is clear, however surging issues with ST3's appear only to exist on '06 and later bikes. So I'd suggest that Prue-'06 owners avoid the dialogue (said with a smile and not directed at anyone in particular).

Scott

Not suggesting the comment was directed at me, but seriously, get real.  

[sfarson]

I draw no broadstroke conclusion other than what I've experienced and what is based on the web/net. There are far, far, far fewer complaints and issues re Ducati EFI than BMW EFI. That you have not experienced any does not invalidate the thousands who have. You suggest resisting drawing blanket conclusions from the web, and then offer your experience as what? I can't remember when I last read a review of a new BMW model where fuel metering was not an issue.

As I noted, update your database and references.  You've based claims from pre dual-spark days and from web K-bike problem reports - old info and hardly representative.  If you're claiming my no problem experiences are not reflective then don't claim yours as reflective.  Try to resist the hypocrisy of claiming BMW EFI as horrible, whitewashing it as reality for all current BMW models... while at the same time showing dismay when similar claims are made for only a single Ducati model.  Don't apply different standards.

Can't remember the last BMW review where EFI wasn't called out as an issue?  Egads, you just revealed you don't read BMW reviews yet act as an up to date expert on the make.  Here, I'll help you out.  Have found a place, even from your own country, with a fine list of BMW reviews, R and K bike.  Please point out in every article how the horrible EFI plaguing the model is called out...

http://www.onewheeldrive.net/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=157&Itemid=120

[st ryder]

As I noted, update your database and references.  You've based claims from pre dual-spark days and from web K-bike problem reports - old info and hardly representative.  If you're claiming my no problem experiences are not reflective then don't claim yours as reflective.  Try to resist the hypocrisy of claiming BMW EFI as horrible, whitewashing it as reality for all current BMW models... while at the same time showing dismay when similar claims are made for only a single Ducati model.  Don't apply different standards.

Can't remember the last BMW review where EFI wasn't called out as an issue?  Egads, you just revealed you don't read BMW reviews yet act as an up to date expert on the make.  Here, I'll help you out.  Have found a place, even from your own country, with a fine list of BMW reviews, R and K bike.  Please point out in every article how the horrible EFI plaguing the model is called out...

http://www.onewheeldrive.net/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=157&Itemid=120

Surely you don't take too seriously the reviews at OWD which are in effect well written ads for the manufacturers. Like Sir Alan, they don't ride bikes they don't like. I have already admitted I don't get to the BMW forums as much as I use to, but fueling issues are a problem even with new K 12 bikes as I'm sure most anybody who rides a bike and does not bury his head in the sand has read up on, so I won't get into a battle of links with you, and certainly don't need your "expert" help, but I will quote Kevin Ash, a respected motojournalist who has tested almost all new BMWs for a very long time and kisses no ass, commenting on the new r12r's(one of the few BMW's I'd consider) fueling. What does he know that you won't admit?:

"The fuel injection has been refined, working perfectly in all the situations I could conjure, even at the very small throttle openings that in the past have caused some hunting on BMW twins."

So, after 14 years, BMW seems to have it worked out boxer efi, but not on all models. During that time of pre dual spark heads, there were thousands of unhappy owners.

Oh and here are comments on K12s fueling from the same author:

"Snap open the throttle and you can never be quite sure just how hard or evenly the engine will pull."

"[riders] might instead be troubled by the bike's reluctance to maintain a constant speed on a light throttle at low revs."

Oh, and with respect to the new r1200s, a dual spark boxer, Mr Ash states:

"It feels as if the fuelling isn't quite right either,..."

I also skim through magazines from "your" country on occasion, who have also reported issues with BMW fueling, but believe what you like even if the fact of the matter is anybody can do the research and discover there have been long standing issues with BMW efi, and with the corporate response to dissatisfied and disillusioned owners that the fuelling problems you claim don't exist are a "feature of the bike." Why would BMWNA in effect acknowledge there's an issue with fueling as they brush off complaints from owners with that "let them eat cake" explanation of a problem you say doesn't exist?  

[sfarson]

Ahhh... Now you're beginning to clarify and soften your blanket statements.  Maybe it isn't every bike, maybe it isn't every review, maybe BMW forums aren't visited often, maybe it was pre-dual spark from years ago... and this has been the point all along:  You issue statements as if EFI issues are BMW universal, reflective for all, and current, as you amazingly criticize those saying making the same broad statements about Ducati.

BTW, expand and widen your reference/reviewer pool.  The Brit Kevin Ash is no more "respected" than the many others out there writing for major publications.  Many BMW owners scratch their heads wondering where Mr. Ash is coming from, not observing or sharing his p-o-v at all, whether it is the R12R or the K12S.  And this isn't just BMW owners.  While Ash panned the '05 K1200S, MCN here gave the K1200S the rare five stars and Motorrad gave the bike its highest score ever, replacing the previous record holder, the venerable VFR.  The EFI wasn't an issue.  Too bad you relied upon Ash's R12R review... many other reviews are glowing about the bike and don't mention the EFI.

[st ryder]

Aha... Now you're beginning to clarify and soften your blanket statements.  Maybe it isn't every bike, maybe it isn't every review, maybe BMW forums aren't visited often, maybe it was pre-dual spark from years ago... and this has been the point all along:  You issue statements as if EFI issues are BMW universal, reflective for all, and current, as you amazingly criticize those saying making the same broad statements about Ducati.

BTW, expand and widen your reference/reviewer pool.  The Brit Kevin Ash is no more "respected" than the many others out there writing for major publications.  Many BMW owners scratch their heads wondering where Mr. Ash is coming from, not observing or sharing his p-o-v at all, whether it is the R12R or the K12S.  And this isn't just BMW owners.  While Ash panned the '05 K1200S, MCN here gave the K1200S the rare five stars and Motorrad gave the bike its highest score ever, replacing the previous record holder, the venerable VFR.  The EFI wasn't an issue.  Too bad you relied upon Ash's R12R review... many other reviews are glowing about the bike and don't mention the EFI.

Okay, I'll expand my reference pool. Here are just a few clips from a few entries at another site you like to hang around and deny surging exists: (oh, these are *actual* boxer owners, not motojournalists)

"The rest are made up of two groups: owners that are lucky that their GS doesn't surge and owners that have trouble admitting to something as embarrassing as a surging mega dollar bike."
(I suspect he's talking about guys like you in the second group   and if you didn't get the inference, that all GS's surge)

"My GS surges like a fucking pig. Next summer I'll install the Techlusion control box (http://www.techlusion.com/zIntro.htm) and that doesn't fix it, I'll be looking back to Jap bikes."
(oh my, egad, a fucking pig!)

"Been riding bikes for about 25 years. Heard about the surging, but didn't experience it 'til I got my 1100 GS."
(oh, must have been his first BMW  )

"My 01 1150GS with 22k miles has a definite surge between 3000-3500 rpm."
(oh, a definite surge. Isn't that the rev range Mr Ash speaks about?)

"This (problems with BMWs) is the biggest problem with surging. Because it gets reported alot and is the biggest problem. But because some folks do not have the ability to notice it, whether it is a mental block or they can't feel it, they say it doesn't exsist. So you get a percentage of riders that deny their bike surges."
(I think he too is speaking about you again  )

BMW boxer motorcycles have had prominent surging issues from 1993 through to 2003: that's ten years of the same BS, but you choose to focus on 2004 and later dual spark heads, THAT STILL SURGE!!. Do I really need to clarify which model years I'm speaking about when speaking about BMW twin surging?  Do you want serial numbers as well?

I can cite entries from just about any BMW site in just about any language you choose, report after report from owners of BMWs with surging issues.

There are very good reasons why I chose to purchase a new Ducati rather than a BMW, not the least being I am an informed person: BMWs have fueling issues and drive line issues which they have not been able to resolve for decades. Surely you now won't start denying BMW has drive line issues with the same silly obfuscation tactics you employ while denying surging is a problem?

My point was and is, please don't taint Ducati fueling issues as being similar to BMW issues. That would be like saying Ducati has had surging issues for 14 years, and this is not the case.

I'll sign off on this thread by reiterating: Ducati gets efi right, BMW doesn't.    

[sfarson]

Egads, wake up!!!  You're citing pre-dual spark bikes from years ago!!!  This was already mentioned.  Do you not read?  Not only that, you're drawing old conclusions from the web as being reflective of all today.  BTW, I rode an 1150GS for years without any surging.  Man, if I were like you I'd be telling everyone not to buy Hondas because of stator problems or ST3's because of throttle snatchiness because I read it on the web.  You're striking out man and it is because your head is in the sand.

Will make it easy for you.  Let's take it offline.  You mentioned never reading a review where BMW fueling wasn't called out as an issue.  Here's your chance.  Let's look at reviews of the the R1200GS and R1200RT.  BMW's two largest selling models.  Prove your point.  Prove you have no bias.  PM me the links to every review calling the EFI out as a problem for these two models.  Every review.  It is what you said.  Actually you already have strike three.  I have links to several reviews and it isn't called out at all, a non-issue and not "moronic" as you so impressively wrote.

BTW, surely you know about the EFI stalling issues with the 1098.  Many reports on the web.  Surely you know about Ducati NA's lack of response.  Many reports on the web.  Oh, and forum posts on the web are so accurate.  And Ducati gets EFI but BMW doesn't.  Sure.  Glad I don't follow your advice.  No issues with the 1098 here.

[ZED]

I thought this was a Ducati discussion?

How'd I end up in beamer'vile

 

[Oilhed]

Nothing wrong with the throttle on my ST3. It's got power when I need it and no twitchiness. Nothing but ear-to-ear grins since I've had it.

Ditto!  I have a '05 and it's the smoothest twin I've ever ridden from low RPMs to redline.