NEW CHINESE BIKES

[mr moto]

trust me , inside the next ten years , once they have sorted out their materials quality control , and they will !  lot,s of us will be riding around on  cheaper bikes made in china .  
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/user/2008/August/Naked-600s-from-China/?&R=EPI-102366

[Rincewind]

That's a nice looking bike.  It looks very derived from the FZ6 and Honda Hornets.  The second pic shown at MCN looks like a Speed Four and even has the same snorkel.  The other one like a naked Z750.  But I don't expect China to be innovative in design yet - at least they are looking beyond the scooter and small-bike market.

[JamesG]

Inside the next ten years the global economy will collapse and you will be riding around on this:



Ironic huh?

[spinalator]

Korean bikes are way better than those crappy Chinese ones.

[UFO]

Okay, I'll be honest...that bikes looks pretty cool, assuming it isn't a photochopped concept which I'm sure it is.

But, I'd never own a Chinese bike.  Maybe in 30 years.  But by then I'll be in a rocking chair nursing arthritis.

[ksann]

I am typing this on a Toshiba Laptop made in China.
so yeah, if it fit my needs, I would buy it.
And park it next to my BMW.




ken

[UFO]

I am typing this on a Toshiba Laptop made in China.
so yeah, if it fit my needs, I would buy it.
And park it next to my BMW.

Ken has never worked with a Chinese supplier.  

[Stray Cat]

Made in China is one thing. Designed and developed in China, is completely different. If they want to build world class bikes on their own, it's going to be much longer then 10 years. It will take that long just for the development stage, and another 10 years to get a customer base.
They have along way to go, and reverse engineering is only going to bring them up to yesterdays standards.

On the other hand, maybe they will build a V5 1000CC VFR before Honda does.  

[JamesG]

LoL! But they would call it the "VFC Interlooper".  

I really don't even trust made in China, and I most certainly would not trust my life to at at 70mph on a busy interstate!

[ksann]

Ken has never worked with a Chinese supplier.  

Not quite true.
Our company has US Engineers that we have relocated to China, we direct import quite a bit.




ken

[sterling]

I really don't even trust made in China, and I most certainly would not trust my life to at at 70mph on a busy interstate!

I saw a Craigslist ad (Raleigh, NC) for some of these, and this way my first thought. A scooter is one thing...but who knows, to be able to be imported and sold they should have to pass some sort of safety requirements at least.

[bubba zanetti]

Inside the next ten years the global economy will collapse and you will be riding around on this:



Ironic huh?

That is the ugliest sidecar I have ever seen.

[Netminder]

Considering that Chinese manufacturers think nothing about using lead paint in children's toy, poison in dog treats to get protein measuring higher, flamable materials in childrens sleepwear, and god knows what they use as food preservatives - I think I'll pass for now on risking my life on a Chinese motorcycle. There's zero accountability over there other than in us not buying their junk.

[ksann]

Sorry, but to my view, it is up to the American importer to spec how something is made, and to verify that it is being done that way.
Again, the laptop (Toshiba) that I am typing this on was made in China, and it has been very reliable, not a single problem at all.




ken

[sterling]

Sorry, but to my view, it is up to the American importer to spec how something is made, and to verify that it is being done that way.
Again, the laptop (Toshiba) that I am typing this on was made in China, and it has been very reliable, not a single problem at all.




ken

Correct, but in this time of dollars over sense, do you really want to place your life in the hands of some greedy corporation to do the right thing? A laptop is one thing, a vehicle is another. Although, with the laptop batteries exploding lately, who knows

[Netminder]

You aren't going to wind up in the hospital or the morgue if your Chinese-made laptop crashes.

[ksann]

Sorry, but I would not be afraid of owning a Chinese made motorcycle. I would research it like any other new to us manufacturer, but I would consider it.



ken

[scotteroni]

I don't know but my local motoguzzi, piaggio,aprillia dealer also sells Hyosung. Kinda like the Sears good, better and best scenario with their tool selection and trying to cover all the price points.  Looking at the bike and the quality of materials, welds, chrome er...plastic I personally would be embarrassed to be seen riding the bike myself. Some of these bikes are priced only 10%-12% less than a comparable Suzuki or Yamaha. Sure you'll save some money in the beginning but the resale value is  surely going to drop 50% in 2 years.

[Bodhi]

Sorry, but I would not be afraid of owning a Chinese made motorcycle. I would research it like any other new to us manufacturer, but I would consider it.



ken

Well my form of "research" will be to wait and see - let others test and Q/A them - others who aren't as picky about putting their lives in the hands of stuff made in a country where it has been clear that safety and integrity are too often compromised by greed and corruption, and where there is apparently no regulatory oversight. Maybe time will tell if China's industrial revolution turns out to be similar to Japan's - initially poor quality junk evoking "made in Japan" jokes. Maybe the Chinese will produce decent quality, safe, inexpensive knock offs. But I'm not gonna be the guinea pig. I'll check back in 3-5 years.

[DredheadV2.0]

Considering that Chinese manufacturers think nothing about using lead paint in children's toy, poison in dog treats to get protein measuring higher, flamable materials in childrens sleepwear, and god knows what they use as food preservatives - I think I'll pass for now on risking my life on a Chinese motorcycle. There's zero accountability over there other than in us not buying their junk.

+ a bazillion

[Baz]

Well my form of "research" will be to wait and see - let others test and Q/A them - others who aren't as picky about putting their lives in the hands of stuff made in a country where it has been clear that safety and integrity are too often compromised by greed and corruption, and where there is apparently no regulatory oversight. Maybe time will tell if China's industrial revolution turns out to be similar to Japan's - initially poor quality junk evoking "made in Japan" jokes. Maybe the Chinese will produce decent quality, safe, inexpensive knock offs. But I'm not gonna be the guinea pig. I'll check back in 3-5 years.

Bodhi:

We have built a very large manufacturing facility in China & my former Engineer is now running the place. Here is the thing with China. If you are a manufacturer like lets say Kawasaki and build your own facility there to make your own motorcycles, you will be greeted with very skilled & conscientious workers who will by all accounts work harder, faster better than anywhere in North America. The stuff coming out of our plant there meets the same 9001 ISO standards as those in the US or Canada, and I believe the cost is you can hire 31 Chinese workers for the cost of one American plant worker doing an identical job. This may have changed in the last couple of years. (Our company built the facility there, just to handle growth in that local market). China has actually surpassed Japan in the manufacturing game in less years.

The problem a lot of companies run into is they out source manufacturing there to a sweat shop, where Quality Control is non existant. Your Intellectual and proprietary rights are not honored there, and this is the only reason why motorcycles are not made there now. (But read on)

I read an article quite a while ago, and I believe it was Suzuki who had arranged for the SV 650 to be made there. (Don't quote me on this anyone) Anyway, before they received the 1st shipment of bikes, there was a knockoff being sold locally. They 3rd party sweat shop had stolen all of the technology to sell locally.  If you do any shopping locally in China you can buy many brand name items which are identical to the real stuff. I am convinced that many of the sweat shops just make "extra". (Ask me about my two year old $9.00 D&G jeans ($300.00 in Canada) which look as good now as the day I bought them of the street merchant).

I would bet a few shackles, that there is not one motorcycle manufacturer who is not getting one piece of one of their motorcycles built in China. It might be a brake pad, it might be a throttle cable, but you are all riding around on a Chinese bike in some form. Just about anything that has no intellectual value is made in China these days.


Here is a funny fact that I have learned recently on CNBC.

A sign of a healthy  & mature economy is when you start loosing manufacturing jobs.

This means that:

A) You have modernized your plant & efficiency has gone through the roof.
B) Your standard of living has increased. (The land your plant sat on was worth more to turn into condos than make trinkets).

The funny thing is that China is loosing more manufacturing jobs than the U.S. these days to places like Vietnam.
http://www.conference-board.org/utilities/pressdetail.cfm?press_id=2432


I do kind of chuckle when I hear American's say "I won't buy anything Chinese" but it really was the icon of America, Wally world that started this thing. I am sorry, but 8/10 American's would buy a Knock off of a BMW GS, if it was half the price and almost as good and made in China. Wall Mart has proved this over and over.

[Bodhi]

Baz, you make some very salient points, but I think I have as well. It's not so much the Chinese workers I am concerned with - it's the managers. China's industrial revolution has parallels to America's (and probably most of the so-called developed world). It starts with unregulated or loosely regulated rapid growth mode replete with greedy carpetbaggers and snakeoil peddlers. The notable elements we're seeing: shortcuts, substandard (even dangerous ingredients and components), carelessness, lack of worker safety or environmental protection. Much of the recent massive earthquake damage and loss of life has been attributed to shoddy construction techniques and substandard materials.  Local government officials often look the other way when it comes to oversight because of the money coming in (both to the community and to the local officials' pockets). Yeah, I know it's not only endemic to China, but it's the lack of government oversight that's notable. Eventually, the national government will realize it's bad publicity, bad for profits in the long run, bad for the economy in the long run, and bad for the environment in the long run, to let businesses do their thing with little or no oversight. The anti-buy-Chinese sentiment here hasn't developed because of irrational, unfounded media hype - as the Chinese government has portrayed it. There are legitmate concerns here. I don't doubt many of these problems will be addressed over time. But change doesn't come in an expedient manner without public pressure - consumers voting with their wallets - and that's what I'm doing. It's the same feeling I have toward any corporations anywhere that betray the public trust. I'll try my best to not give them my dollars.

As for Walmart - there's no denying this model of the "new economy", lauded by Harvard ivory tower ideologues as the greatest breakthrough in business since the assembly line, is directing literal boatloads of dollars to China in exchange for cheap goods. That model is catching up to us as we will most certainly pay the price for the massive trade deficits and concomitant debt this has caused. And I don't pretend I haven't ever bought anything made in China. But as was mentioned in an earlier post, we're not talking about stuff you bet your life on. Not yet at least. There's a big difference between buying a Chinese-made desk lamp and a motorcycle. It will start with light scooters - basic transportation for people who can't afford a car, and can't afford $100 a week for gasoline. Then we'll see basic small standards selling more and more. But I really don't seriously see vast numbers of motorcycling enthusiasts buying Chinese-made sportbikes (or BMW knockoffs) to save a few thousand dollars, in the near future.

[Baz]

Bodhi:

I do however think that you will see a GS made in China or a ST 1300 made in India before any Chinese bike invasion hits our shores. Before any Chinese invasion, I believe that your going to see a lot of parts outsourcing to China and smaller countries beyond, and more than likely it will be on lower end models such as scooters. I am pretty sure this is happening now.

In a recent visit to Thailand I was able to see the sales figures for Honda 125 Dream's and they have sold 12 million units over the last 7 years there alone. (That's just Thailand) This was according to "Bike" magazine. You can bet your bottom line that if Honda could produce these in China and save $100.00 a unit, they would move production in a second. But again, you would bet that Honda would have a few Engineers living at the plant making sure quality of the finished product was acceptable.

Are you positive your Japanese Motorcycle is made in Japan? Have a look below. I could have posted many more locations. I am not sure that anyone can say with 100% confidence where their motorcycle or parts of it are made now.

http://www.globalsuzuki.com/globalnews/2007/0208.html
http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article.php/Suzuki-India-Motorcycles-Boost-Product
http://www.japancorp.net/Article.asp?Art_ID=19585
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0RRT/is_2006_Nov_29/ai_n16879798

[Bodhi]

Bodhi:

In a recent visit to Thailand I was able to see the sales figures for Honda 125 Dream's and they have sold 12 million units over the last 7 years there alone. (That's just Thailand) This was according to "Bike" magazine. You can bet your bottom line that if Honda could produce these in China and save $100.00 a unit, they would move production in a second. But again, you would bet that Honda would have a few Engineers living at the plant making sure quality of the finished product was acceptable.

With internationally-branded goods (i.e. Hondas made in China - or at least heavily parts-sourced from China) Honda's reputation is clearly on the line and I would expect their engineers to be there, doing their own Q/A work. That's good. Again, I'm talking about Chinese-branded stuff where nobody - I repeat nobody (except the local managers) is being held accountable for shoddy workmanship, unsafe designs, inferior parts and materials, etc.

Are you positive your Japanese Motorcycle is made in Japan? Have a look below. I could have posted many more locations. I am not sure that anyone can say with 100% confidence where their motorcycle or parts of it are made now.

I'm pretty certain my Ducati was made in Bologna. I can't be certain that 100% of the parts came from Italy. But I'm pretty confident they aren't putting in major components (brakes, engine, tranny, drivetrain, wheels and tires, etc.) that are sourced from China. Am I wrong here? If Ducati starts using cheap third-world components (made in factories they don't have a strong presence in and hopefully a minority stake in) to save a hundred bucks - then I'll have no desire to own one anymore. Really!

[Baz]

I would agree fully on the Ducati summary. I just don't know how much control even Ducati would have over things. Surely they are not manufacturing 100% of their entire bike. The minute that you would buy from a secondary supplier, I don't think you would have control anymore.

There was one instance quite a while ago where someone discovered that some H.D. parts were being made in Japan. (These were ignition modules if I can recall). While Harley claims that 95% of their bikes are American made, their explanation was that in order for them to make these certain parts, the price to manufacture them would have been ten fold, as their consumption of that product would not make it worth their while to manufacture it in the US. They were sharing this part with many other manufacturers, which kept the cost down.

I am sure Ducati has to consider final cost of a bike build, just like everyone else. As they sell more bikes, (and I understand Ducati N.A. Sales are going well) I believe that outsourcing will become more of a factor in their operations.

But yea, I am sure that there would be some cranky Ducati owners if they found a "Made in China" stamp on their V.I.N. plate.

[ksann]

Nothing as complex as a modern motorcycle is made in a single country.

Get over it people, accept the realities of the world that we live in, the one that we continue to develop.

And as has been said, China is preferable over other countries.



ken

[spitfiremk21]

On the other hand, maybe they will build a V5 1000CC VFR before Honda does.

 

[Baz]

There was a fellow here that tried importing Cherry Automobiles from China to be sold in Canada through dealer networks he was going to create.

He could not get approval from transport Canada, as the cars would not meet crash test standards.

Honda actually had to delay the sale of the Varadaro here, reportably as the fuel line did not meet their standards.

I think China may have quite a way to go.

[atadaskew]

There was one instance quite a while ago where someone discovered that some H.D. parts were being made in Japan. (These were ignition modules if I can recall). While Harley claims that 95% of their bikes are American made,

I know that the suspension on my Harley is Japanese,etc etc.  I had a little fun with a total ho-bitch saleswoman at Bartels harley in Marina Del Rey (she for some reason made up blatant lies about stuff she didn't carry but that's another story) by going to their wall of official Harley product chrome trinkets and doo-dads, and every one I turned over had a "Made in China" sticker on it.  For of course top dollar US pricing...

[GoneRacin]

There was a fellow here that tried importing Cherry Automobiles from China to be sold in Canada through dealer networks he was going to create.

He could not get approval from transport Canada, as the cars would not meet crash test standards.

Honda actually had to delay the sale of the Varadaro here, reportably as the fuel line did not meet their standards.

I think China may have quite a way to go.

I have worked on a few of these chinese adn korean bikes. Most arent worth their weight in scrap

[artyboy]

I have worked on a few of these chinese adn korean bikes. Most arent worth their weight in scrap

Japanese bike makers have been outsourcing OEM parts from China for years .  I think that most of you would be astounded if you found out how much of your bikes came from China.  

[Orson]

I went to the Milan bike show a few years ago, and I was astounded by the number of Chinese manufacturers displaying their wares.

Almost all of them offering mopeds or cheap looking children's mini bikes and quad bikes

regardless of the quality, it seems to me that the sheer tidal wave amount of product will swamp the market.

[mr moto]

I went to the Milan bike show a few years ago, and I was astounded by the number of Chinese manufacturers displaying their wares.

Almost all of them offering mopeds or cheap looking children's mini bikes and quad bikes

regardless of the quality, it seems to me that the sheer tidal wave amount of product will swamp the market.

EXACTLY ! I was at the vast INTERMOT bike show in Germany in 2006 and was astonished at the sheer number of chinese motorcycle manufacturers . Back in the sixties people were saying that the latest influx of small capacity cheap japanese motorcycles  were badly made inferior copies of so called superior european motorcycles ! And we all know what happened next . Forty years of the big four 'Honda'Kawasaki'Suzuki'Yamaha Worldwide motorcycle market dominaion .

[Black Ice]

Maybe in 30 years.  But by then I'll be in a rocking chair nursing arthritis.

I thought you were.  

[Commando850]

I will NEVER own a Chinese motorcycle.

[Black Ice]

I will NEVER own a Chinese motorcycle.

How about a Korean one?  

[Commando850]

How about a Korean one?  

Hmmm...well...I almost never say never, so I'd say "maybe" to a Korean bike...but...from what I've seen here in Canada there is not a huge difference in price between a Korean bike and something comparable from Japan Inc...and I've never had anything but great luck with Japanese bikes...given near equal pricing I'll buy Japanese every time.

I've also had European motorcycles, and would consider buying one again, from almost any European manufacturer except the new BMW's that are being built with Chinese engines. There is no way in old H E double hockey-sticks I would ever buy a BMW with a Chinese manufactured engine...especially at BMW premium prices...no way, no how, nada...big mistake on BMWs part as far as I am concerned.

[Tar Snake]

Aren't Benellis Chinese made? and BMW's new G650GS single?

I think this is how the Chinese will overcome the resistance.

The little off brand Chinese bikes are cheap not because China can't make good bikes, they are cheap because that's the pricepoint they are built to.

I'm not crazy about it because there are things about China's human rights and environmental records that I don't like. Where I work the buyers are just so focused on cost, not supplier relationships, or location. As long as the quality is close they go to China more and more.

[Orson]

Aren't Benellis Chinese made?

Last I heard, they bought the factory but manufacturing is still being done in Italy.

I think they made the purchase hoping to pick up some technology tips.

I might be behind the times though.

[Tar Snake]

Last I heard, they bought the factory but manufacturing is still being done in Italy.

I think they made the purchase hoping to pick up some technology tips.

I might be behind the times though.

You're right they are still Italian according to Wikipedia, and owned by a Chinese parent company.

[fong47]

Yes, I think the chinese are riskier than any other nation with regards to building products. Koreans are better quality I think and it may need a lot more years before they can catch up to the quality standards we're all looking for.

[birdrunner]

I've been looking to put my wife on a Dual Sport.

The KLR 250 I found was too tall, and 8 years old.  Haven't seen a DR200 here in years, but when they do get them, they're over $4000.00,  both were kinda tall for her.

But there's a Chinese bike, (Konker ?? ) made in the same factory that's licensed to make the DR200,  and it's done up as a SM.,  lower suspension, street tires.   The asking price........... with 2 year warranty  $2700.00.  It's also a 200 cc.   Ya think they' "borrowed" some technology.   But since the design of the DR is 100 years old,  it's probably public domain.

I'm looking real hard at this one as it's only a few hundred more that 10 year old machines.