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Topic: NEW CHINESE BIKES  (Read 7964 times)

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Baz
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2008, 05:16:34 AM »




Well my form of "research" will be to wait and see - let others test and Q/A them - others who aren't as picky about putting their lives in the hands of stuff made in a country where it has been clear that safety and integrity are too often compromised by greed and corruption, and where there is apparently no regulatory oversight. Maybe time will tell if China's industrial revolution turns out to be similar to Japan's - initially poor quality junk evoking "made in Japan" jokes. Maybe the Chinese will produce decent quality, safe, inexpensive knock offs. But I'm not gonna be the guinea pig. I'll check back in 3-5 years.


Bodhi:

We have built a very large manufacturing facility in China & my former Engineer is now running the place. Here is the thing with China. If you are a manufacturer like lets say Kawasaki and build your own facility there to make your own motorcycles, you will be greeted with very skilled & conscientious workers who will by all accounts work harder, faster better than anywhere in North America. The stuff coming out of our plant there meets the same 9001 ISO standards as those in the US or Canada, and I believe the cost is you can hire 31 Chinese workers for the cost of one American plant worker doing an identical job. This may have changed in the last couple of years. (Our company built the facility there, just to handle growth in that local market). China has actually surpassed Japan in the manufacturing game in less years.

The problem a lot of companies run into is they out source manufacturing there to a sweat shop, where Quality Control is non existant. Your Intellectual and proprietary rights are not honored there, and this is the only reason why motorcycles are not made there now. (But read on)

I read an article quite a while ago, and I believe it was Suzuki who had arranged for the SV 650 to be made there. (Don't quote me on this anyone) Anyway, before they received the 1st shipment of bikes, there was a knockoff being sold locally. They 3rd party sweat shop had stolen all of the technology to sell locally.  If you do any shopping locally in China you can buy many brand name items which are identical to the real stuff. I am convinced that many of the sweat shops just make "extra". (Ask me about my two year old $9.00 D&G jeans ($300.00 in Canada) which look as good now as the day I bought them of the street merchant).

I would bet a few shackles, that there is not one motorcycle manufacturer who is not getting one piece of one of their motorcycles built in China. It might be a brake pad, it might be a throttle cable, but you are all riding around on a Chinese bike in some form. Just about anything that has no intellectual value is made in China these days.


Here is a funny fact that I have learned recently on CNBC.

A sign of a healthy  & mature economy is when you start loosing manufacturing jobs.

This means that:

A) You have modernized your plant & efficiency has gone through the roof.
B) Your standard of living has increased. (The land your plant sat on was worth more to turn into condos than make trinkets).

The funny thing is that China is loosing more manufacturing jobs than the U.S. these days to places like Vietnam.
http://www.conference-board.org/utilities/pressdetail.cfm?press_id=2432


I do kind of chuckle when I hear American's say "I won't buy anything Chinese" but it really was the icon of America, Wally world that started this thing. I am sorry, but 8/10 American's would buy a Knock off of a BMW GS, if it was half the price and almost as good and made in China. Wall Mart has proved this over and over.















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Bodhi
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2008, 01:17:51 PM »

Baz, you make some very salient points, but I think I have as well. It's not so much the Chinese workers I am concerned with - it's the managers. China's industrial revolution has parallels to America's (and probably most of the so-called developed world). It starts with unregulated or loosely regulated rapid growth mode replete with greedy carpetbaggers and snakeoil peddlers. The notable elements we're seeing: shortcuts, substandard (even dangerous ingredients and components), carelessness, lack of worker safety or environmental protection. Much of the recent massive earthquake damage and loss of life has been attributed to shoddy construction techniques and substandard materials.  Local government officials often look the other way when it comes to oversight because of the money coming in (both to the community and to the local officials' pockets). Yeah, I know it's not only endemic to China, but it's the lack of government oversight that's notable. Eventually, the national government will realize it's bad publicity, bad for profits in the long run, bad for the economy in the long run, and bad for the environment in the long run, to let businesses do their thing with little or no oversight. The anti-buy-Chinese sentiment here hasn't developed because of irrational, unfounded media hype - as the Chinese government has portrayed it. There are legitmate concerns here. I don't doubt many of these problems will be addressed over time. But change doesn't come in an expedient manner without public pressure - consumers voting with their wallets - and that's what I'm doing. It's the same feeling I have toward any corporations anywhere that betray the public trust. I'll try my best to not give them my dollars.

As for Walmart - there's no denying this model of the "new economy", lauded by Harvard ivory tower ideologues as the greatest breakthrough in business since the assembly line, is directing literal boatloads of dollars to China in exchange for cheap goods. That model is catching up to us as we will most certainly pay the price for the massive trade deficits and concomitant debt this has caused. And I don't pretend I haven't ever bought anything made in China. But as was mentioned in an earlier post, we're not talking about stuff you bet your life on. Not yet at least. There's a big difference between buying a Chinese-made desk lamp and a motorcycle. It will start with light scooters - basic transportation for people who can't afford a car, and can't afford $100 a week for gasoline. Then we'll see basic small standards selling more and more. But I really don't seriously see vast numbers of motorcycling enthusiasts buying Chinese-made sportbikes (or BMW knockoffs) to save a few thousand dollars, in the near future.
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2008, 06:41:45 PM »

Bodhi:

I do however think that you will see a GS made in China or a ST 1300 made in India before any Chinese bike invasion hits our shores. Before any Chinese invasion, I believe that your going to see a lot of parts outsourcing to China and smaller countries beyond, and more than likely it will be on lower end models such as scooters. I am pretty sure this is happening now.

In a recent visit to Thailand I was able to see the sales figures for Honda 125 Dream's and they have sold 12 million units over the last 7 years there alone. (That's just Thailand) This was according to "Bike" magazine. You can bet your bottom line that if Honda could produce these in China and save $100.00 a unit, they would move production in a second. But again, you would bet that Honda would have a few Engineers living at the plant making sure quality of the finished product was acceptable.

Are you positive your Japanese Motorcycle is made in Japan? Have a look below. I could have posted many more locations. I am not sure that anyone can say with 100% confidence where their motorcycle or parts of it are made now.

http://www.globalsuzuki.com/globalnews/2007/0208.html
http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article.php/Suzuki-India-Motorcycles-Boost-Product
http://www.japancorp.net/Article.asp?Art_ID=19585
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0RRT/is_2006_Nov_29/ai_n16879798







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Bodhi
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2008, 07:00:49 PM »


Bodhi:

In a recent visit to Thailand I was able to see the sales figures for Honda 125 Dream's and they have sold 12 million units over the last 7 years there alone. (That's just Thailand) This was according to "Bike" magazine. You can bet your bottom line that if Honda could produce these in China and save $100.00 a unit, they would move production in a second. But again, you would bet that Honda would have a few Engineers living at the plant making sure quality of the finished product was acceptable.


With internationally-branded goods (i.e. Hondas made in China - or at least heavily parts-sourced from China) Honda's reputation is clearly on the line and I would expect their engineers to be there, doing their own Q/A work. That's good. Again, I'm talking about Chinese-branded stuff where nobody - I repeat nobody (except the local managers) is being held accountable for shoddy workmanship, unsafe designs, inferior parts and materials, etc.


Are you positive your Japanese Motorcycle is made in Japan? Have a look below. I could have posted many more locations. I am not sure that anyone can say with 100% confidence where their motorcycle or parts of it are made now.


I'm pretty certain my Ducati was made in Bologna. I can't be certain that 100% of the parts came from Italy. But I'm pretty confident they aren't putting in major components (brakes, engine, tranny, drivetrain, wheels and tires, etc.) that are sourced from China. Am I wrong here? If Ducati starts using cheap third-world components (made in factories they don't have a strong presence in and hopefully a minority stake in) to save a hundred bucks - then I'll have no desire to own one anymore. Really!
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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2008, 07:51:03 PM »

I would agree fully on the Ducati summary. I just don't know how much control even Ducati would have over things. Surely they are not manufacturing 100% of their entire bike. The minute that you would buy from a secondary supplier, I don't think you would have control anymore.

There was one instance quite a while ago where someone discovered that some H.D. parts were being made in Japan. (These were ignition modules if I can recall). While Harley claims that 95% of their bikes are American made, their explanation was that in order for them to make these certain parts, the price to manufacture them would have been ten fold, as their consumption of that product would not make it worth their while to manufacture it in the US. They were sharing this part with many other manufacturers, which kept the cost down.

I am sure Ducati has to consider final cost of a bike build, just like everyone else. As they sell more bikes, (and I understand Ducati N.A. Sales are going well) I believe that outsourcing will become more of a factor in their operations.

But yea, I am sure that there would be some cranky Ducati owners if they found a "Made in China" stamp on their V.I.N. plate.

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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2008, 08:04:15 PM »

Nothing as complex as a modern motorcycle is made in a single country.

Get over it people, accept the realities of the world that we live in, the one that we continue to develop.

And as has been said, China is preferable over other countries.



ken
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2008, 01:38:36 AM »

Quote
On the other hand, maybe they will build a V5 1000CC VFR before Honda does.

 Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol Lol
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2008, 02:28:25 AM »

There was a fellow here that tried importing Cherry Automobiles from China to be sold in Canada through dealer networks he was going to create.

He could not get approval from transport Canada, as the cars would not meet crash test standards.

Honda actually had to delay the sale of the Varadaro here, reportably as the fuel line did not meet their standards.

I think China may have quite a way to go.
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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2008, 01:35:47 PM »


There was one instance quite a while ago where someone discovered that some H.D. parts were being made in Japan. (These were ignition modules if I can recall). While Harley claims that 95% of their bikes are American made,



I know that the suspension on my Harley is Japanese,etc etc.  I had a little fun with a total ho-bitch saleswoman at Bartels harley in Marina Del Rey (she for some reason made up blatant lies about stuff she didn't carry but that's another story) by going to their wall of official Harley product chrome trinkets and doo-dads, and every one I turned over had a "Made in China" sticker on it.  For of course top dollar US pricing...
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« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2008, 03:32:22 PM »


There was a fellow here that tried importing Cherry Automobiles from China to be sold in Canada through dealer networks he was going to create.

He could not get approval from transport Canada, as the cars would not meet crash test standards.

Honda actually had to delay the sale of the Varadaro here, reportably as the fuel line did not meet their standards.

I think China may have quite a way to go.


I have worked on a few of these chinese adn korean bikes. Most arent worth their weight in scrap
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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2009, 05:15:08 PM »




I have worked on a few of these chinese adn korean bikes. Most arent worth their weight in scrap


Japanese bike makers have been outsourcing OEM parts from China for years Lol.  I think that most of you would be astounded if you found out how much of your bikes came from China.  
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2009, 12:25:53 PM »

I went to the Milan bike show a few years ago, and I was astounded by the number of Chinese manufacturers displaying their wares.

Almost all of them offering mopeds or cheap looking children's mini bikes and quad bikes

regardless of the quality, it seems to me that the sheer tidal wave amount of product will swamp the market.
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« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2009, 08:06:32 AM »


I went to the Milan bike show a few years ago, and I was astounded by the number of Chinese manufacturers displaying their wares.

Almost all of them offering mopeds or cheap looking children's mini bikes and quad bikes

regardless of the quality, it seems to me that the sheer tidal wave amount of product will swamp the market.

EXACTLY ! I was at the vast INTERMOT bike show in Germany in 2006 and was astonished at the sheer number of chinese motorcycle manufacturers . Back in the sixties people were saying that the latest influx of small capacity cheap japanese motorcycles  were badly made inferior copies of so called superior european motorcycles ! And we all know what happened next . Forty years of the big four 'Honda'Kawasaki'Suzuki'Yamaha Worldwide motorcycle market dominaion .
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« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2009, 04:13:50 PM »


Maybe in 30 years.  But by then I'll be in a rocking chair nursing arthritis. Lol


I thought you were.   Bigsmile
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« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2009, 06:51:43 PM »

I will NEVER own a Chinese motorcycle.
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« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2009, 07:34:52 PM »


I will NEVER own a Chinese motorcycle.


How about a Korean one?   Smile
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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2009, 03:19:41 AM »




How about a Korean one?   Smile


Hmmm...well...I almost never say never, so I'd say "maybe" to a Korean bike...but...from what I've seen here in Canada there is not a huge difference in price between a Korean bike and something comparable from Japan Inc...and I've never had anything but great luck with Japanese bikes...given near equal pricing I'll buy Japanese every time.

I've also had European motorcycles, and would consider buying one again, from almost any European manufacturer except the new BMW's that are being built with Chinese engines. There is no way in old H E double hockey-sticks I would ever buy a BMW with a Chinese manufactured engine...especially at BMW premium prices...no way, no how, nada...big mistake on BMWs part as far as I am concerned.
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« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2009, 06:43:49 PM »

Aren't Benellis Chinese made? and BMW's new G650GS single?

I think this is how the Chinese will overcome the resistance.

The little off brand Chinese bikes are cheap not because China can't make good bikes, they are cheap because that's the pricepoint they are built to.

I'm not crazy about it because there are things about China's human rights and environmental records that I don't like. Where I work the buyers are just so focused on cost, not supplier relationships, or location. As long as the quality is close they go to China more and more.
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« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2009, 12:24:31 AM »


Aren't Benellis Chinese made?

Last I heard, they bought the factory but manufacturing is still being done in Italy.

I think they made the purchase hoping to pick up some technology tips.

I might be behind the times though.
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« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2009, 10:24:04 AM »



Last I heard, they bought the factory but manufacturing is still being done in Italy.

I think they made the purchase hoping to pick up some technology tips.

I might be behind the times though.


You're right they are still Italian according to Wikipedia, and owned by a Chinese parent company.

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