LA Times Editorial

[Cal24Master]

You know it goes back to the Hurt Report years ago that found that a significant percentage of motorcycle fatalities happen within 2 years of a rider getting a license.  That seems to be still true today.  Whether it is a 40 year old going throught midlife crisis, or a 20 kid buying his first bike.
 
There has to be something done.  The general public and the politicians will not ignore this for long.  Particularily when non-riding people are getting killed by dumb motorcyclists.  It is one thing when riders kill themselves.  The general public looks at it as someone getting what they have coming to them.  But when a innocent person gets killed by a rider on a bike that many find annoying to begin with, it causes the crap storm.
 
People get pissed when they get interupted by a bike going by with loud pipes.  They get pissed when they are awakened in their motel rooms by idling motorcycle with loud pipes parked outside their door.  They get pissed when they get passed on a double yellow coming into a blind corner, whether the rider thinks they can make it or not.  Many are pissed that they get passed by a lane splitting motorcycle, because they ignorantly think it is a illegal thing to do.
 
So we as riders do all these things to piss people off, then we get upset when they point to a stupid act by a individual that killed an innocent person.  We have to straighten up our act, or the politicians will do it for us.  
 
We should be lobbying the politians to enact a tiered licensing system so a new rider can't ride anything over a 250cc.  Make is so a rider must be licensed for at least 2 years, and have a performance riding school under his/her belt before they can ride a bike over 1000 cc's.  We should limit loud pipes to the track, and keep them off the streets.  We should, as a group start policing ourselves, and not support riders that are hurting us all by riding like idiots.
 
If we don't, the others will.
 
Tom

[Cal24Master]

How about graduated licensing for everyone regardless of vehicle driven?
 
First time licensees could could only drive a car with 1 passenger under 18 and limit vehicle size to 4000lbs gvwr for 1 year. Or 250 cc MC with no passdengers for 1 year. Then bump up to 5000lb or 600cc. Then move to unlimited.
 
Stupid kids kill people with bikes or cars. Bike crashes tend to be more dramaticized. Restrict and educate em all.

We do have that in California.  A teenage driver cannot have passengers under 21, or drive at night for the first 6 months, and cannot drive at night until they have been licensed for a year.  
 
Restricting what type of motorcycle your ride, or requiring helmet use for a period of time is no big deal.
 
Tom

[Cal24Master]

If a motorcycle is a land torpedo, what is an Escalade doing 90+ called?
 
And also, how come there is not this sort of outrage when a car makes a left hand turn in front of a motorcyclist and kills them, or when a car runs through a light/stop sign and kills the motorcyclist?

Why is there not the outrage?  Like I said in a previous post, it is because many cager drivers are already pissed off at us because of reckless driving, loud pipes and lane splitting.  People are not generally pissed at Escalade drivers to begin with.  A non-riding driver does not sympathize with us.  They do not consider themselves one of us.  They do however sympathize with the SUV driver.  Everyone has made a mistake and turned when there was a vehicle coming they did not see.  People understand that.  Most people don't ride motorycles.
 
Tom

[stinky93071]

Not to be the bad guy here but, did she see the bike and did she pull out in front of him? Ya he was going fast, but why did she pull out? For him to hit the driver side door tells me that she was pulling out of somewhere onto the road.
  So if he was going the speed limit would she had pulled out on him and he hit the side of the car would it still be his fault?

[Morgan]

I'd agree with a good tiered licensing system.  Whoever said it earlier in the thread is right:  The 600cc SS bike is now the de facto entry level bike.  This is really scary.  Particularly since a lot of people don't want an 'entry level bike' and get a 1000cc bike or something bigger.  It would appear that a majority of new younger riders are focused mainly on these SS bikes and the 'street cred' that goes with them.  You aren't a man if you ride something less than a 600 and if you ride a 600 too long you're a pussy for not stepping up ASAP.  For a rider who will become a passionate motorcyclist, the tier is no obstacle.  I started on a GS500 and had more fun than I could have imagined would have been possible.  Then I bought a BEAT Seca II and kept having fun.  Then I got my SV and the fun was still the same.  My FZ1 is faster, but the fun of riding hasn't changed since the GS.  
 
My only concern is that we'd probably have to make sacrifices.  If all of the sudden the squids aren't buying the SS bikes (since the immediate gratification isn't available and they won't commit to motorcycling for 2 years to earn the right to ride a SS), then will the OEMs keep pounding out the updates and competition that makes them better?  Also, would it scare enough people away from bikes that the strong sales in general would slow down?

[SWriverstone]

As I said before: the BEST way to cut down on moron squid behavior is for us—the existing motorcycling community—to come down hard on these jerks.
 
There is no more effective criticism than what comes from your peers (or, in this case, your interest group).
 
What am I talking about? A focused, large-scale, nationwide ad campaign based on billboards like this...
 

 
Also...
 
• More well-known motorcylists need to write editorials in popular motorcycling magazines decrying moronic behavior
 
• Well-known motorcyclists need to step up to the plate and say things like "Speed kills—don't be a moron." or "I have fun without going fast."
 
• Ads like the one above need to be placed in non-motorcycling periodicals that squids are likely to read...and television ads should be done and run on networks like ESPN or MTV.
 
• Moto-magazines need to STOP running cover photos of guys on sportbikes doing wheelies and burnouts.
 
Yeah, I know—all this would cost a fortune. But organizations like the AMA and MSF will get a lot more mileage out of a campaign like this than spending money trying to convince drivers to "see" motorcyclists. They'll also benefit the riding community more...because reckless squids pose a FAR greater hazard to us than cage drivers—because cars hitting motorcycles isn't going to get motorcycles banned or limited!
 
Scott

[SWriverstone]

Not to be the bad guy here but, did she see the bike and did she pull out in front of him? Ya he was going fast, but why did she pull out? For him to hit the driver side door tells me that she was pulling out of somewhere onto the road.
So if he was going the speed limit would she had pulled out on him and he hit the side of the car would it still be his fault?

Let's remember that it was a 25mph zone—meaning the driver was in a "25mph mental frame of reference," so she might have seen the guy and had no idea he would be inside her car in .0003 seconds!
 
I've read (and this sounds totally plausible) that the number one reason cars hit bikes is NOT because they didn't see the bike, but because they misjudged closing speed (a bike being smaller and harder to judge than a car).
 
Scott

[06ST1300A]

As I said before: the BEST way to cut down on moron squid behavior is for us—the existing motorcycling community—to come down hard on these jerks.
 
There is no more effective criticism than what comes from your peers (or, in this case, your interest group).
 
What am I talking about? A focused, large-scale, nationwide ad campaign based on billboards like this...
 

 
Also...
 
• More well-known motorcylists need to write editorials in popular motorcycling magazines decrying moronic behavior
 
• Well-known motorcyclists need to step up to the plate and say things like "Speed kills—don't be a moron." or "I have fun without going fast."
 
• Ads like the one above need to be placed in non-motorcycling periodicals that squids are likely to read...and television ads should be done and run on networks like ESPN or MTV.
 
• Moto-magazines need to STOP running cover photos of guys on sportbikes doing wheelies and burnouts.
 
Yeah, I know—all this would cost a fortune. But organizations like the AMA and MSF will get a lot more mileage out of a campaign like this than spending money trying to convince drivers to "see" motorcyclists. They'll also benefit the riding community more...because reckless squids pose a FAR greater hazard to us than cage drivers—because cars hitting motorcycles isn't going to get motorcycles banned or limited!
 
Scott

Sounds like good intentions, but has it actually worked on anything? People still street race and drag race. People still run from cops even though it is a felony now.
Do these people actually care what we think in the first place?
 
 
Like I said, When you find a cure for bad judgement, be sure to let me know.

[Morgan]

As I said before: the BEST way to cut down on moron squid behavior is for us—the existing motorcycling community—to come down hard on these jerks.
 
There is no more effective criticism than what comes from your peers (or, in this case, your interest group).
 
What am I talking about? A focused, large-scale, nationwide ad campaign based on billboards like this...
 

 
Also...
 
• More well-known motorcylists need to write editorials in popular motorcycling magazines decrying moronic behavior
 
• Well-known motorcyclists need to step up to the plate and say things like "Speed kills—don't be a moron." or "I have fun without going fast."
 
• Ads like the one above need to be placed in non-motorcycling periodicals that squids are likely to read...and television ads should be done and run on networks like ESPN or MTV.
 
• Moto-magazines need to STOP running cover photos of guys on sportbikes doing wheelies and burnouts.
 
Yeah, I know—all this would cost a fortune. But organizations like the AMA and MSF will get a lot more mileage out of a campaign like this than spending money trying to convince drivers to "see" motorcyclists. They'll also benefit the riding community more...because reckless squids pose a FAR greater hazard to us than cage drivers—because cars hitting motorcycles isn't going to get motorcycles banned or limited!
 
Scott

 
I don't generally disagree with you, but ads won't fix it.  For example, is that billboard it?  No explanation or anything?  If I look at those people, I see a pack of warmly dressed hikers, or friends of the forest or something.  No roads, helmets or bikes visable.Honda has been running ads like you mention for years without apparent result.

[jadziadax8]

In the past two weeks I've seen (no exaggeration) four different instances of riders on sportbikes popping wheelies at 70+mph on 4-lane highways...in traffic. That's just f*cking stupid, period.
 
It's true that a Gixxer 1000 is no more dangerous than most other motorcycles, but isn't that missing the point? Isn't the point that there are a significant number of motorcyclists who are riding in a suicidal manner, and (as the LA Times says) embracing every possible risk factor?

If I could, I'd thank the stupid kid for taking himself out of the gene pool,  Darwin Awards Style.  It's a crying shame he had to take someone who was arrarently nice, smart, and fun out with him.  *sigh*

[Req]

This isn't even news.  As has been posted many times before, people are going to be idiots on a bike, idiots in an Escalade, or probably even idiots on a Segway.  The bike falls in between the two extremes.

I still like the idea of tiered licensing on kinetic energy capability that someone talked about on the old ST-N.

[Bogie]

What good is tiered licensing? I know a lot of riders who have ridden since the 1960's and 1970's who still ride fast... still pull whelies. I think we should have restrictions on writing bad press about motorcycling.

Huh? Back in the '60s and '70s a 350 was a big bike! They learned, myself included, on small(ish) bikes and are alive to tell the tale.

Oh, wait a minute...is this that irony stuff?

[PhilBiker]

Huh? Back in the '60s and '70s a 350 was a big bike! They learned, myself included, on small(ish) bikes and are alive to tell the tale.

Oh, wait a minute...is this that irony stuff?

Dude.  Lots of those 350s were effing 2-strokes!!!!!!

[cworley5150]

This is exactly right. You blame the idiot that give the chimp the gun. So whom do we blame here? The state government that allows kids to buy and then ride a "land torpedo" on wheels? The motorcycle community for fighting tiered licensing? The motorcycle manufacturers that build and then sell race ready bombs on wheels?quote]
 
I haven't read this whole thread yet.  It is adding up pretty fast.  But i have to disagree with this statement.  Maybe your being sarcastic or I am missing your point.  This accident was a terrible tragedy for sure, but ultimately that kid was responsible for his own actions.  Mommy and Daddy may have bought the bike for him and the dealership was probably very willing to sell it to him even if it was his first bike.  None of them were piloting the bike on that horrible day.  Only the kid.

[Mobycanuck]

We all make mistakes.  Doing 80mph+ in a 25mph zone is not a mistake.  Restricted licensing is a great way to limit 'stupid' behaviour.  It recognizes that a certain level of maturity is needed to handle a motorcycle - "with great power comes great responsibility."  It also recognizes that without experience, it's easier to make mistakes on a more powerful bike.  I started (and will continue next season) on a 250.  It's forgiving and easy to ride, but is fun enough for public roads, and can easily exceed any speed limit in North America.  If I started out on a 1000cc bike, there's no doubt in my mind that I would be dead right now.  A friend of mine started on a 600, then stepped up to an 06 GSXR750 within a month.  He wrote it off 2 weeks later.  The accident wasn't his fault, but he has no question that he might have avoided it on a less powerful bike.

[cbsnbiker]

I don't know the statistics...but does anyone here dispute the LA Times' assertion that motorcycle fatalities have risen 76% in the past decade? Does anyone simply shrug this off as an inevitable result of more bikes on the road?

Motorcycle fatalities have risen substantially over the last decade, in part because of more bikes on the road, more riders, and more miles. (Also probably due in part to the revocation of many state helmet laws--but I digress.) Alas, the fatalities seem to be outpacing these factors.
 

In the past two weeks I've seen (no exaggeration) four different instances of riders on sportbikes popping wheelies at 70+mph on 4-lane highways...in traffic. That's just f*cking stupid, period.

Me too, and I agree.
 
In addition, here's a trend I've noticed only recently: greeting by wheelie.
 
I wave at fellow riders to greet them. In the past, I'd receive a wave back (or variant thereof, such as a thumb in the air), or no return greeting. Now, sometimes when a sportbike rider sees me, he'll immediately pop a wheelie--whether to say hi, show off, or for some other reason. Whenever possible I give a thumb's-down to this kind of behavior.
 

This kind of thing will never stop until we—the safe riding community—stop closing ranks in front of these jackasses. We defend them—not vocally—but by just sitting back and remaining quiet when we should be actively slapping them down.

I respond in my own way: in my MSF courses, I help guide students towards developing a responsible viewpoint on safety. It won't work with every student every time, but I hope I'm making some sort of difference out there.
 

Just my opinion, which will likely be slapped down as well.
 
Scott

Not by me.

[SWriverstone]

We all make mistakes. Doing 80mph+ in a 25mph zone is not a mistake. Restricted licensing is a great way to limit 'stupid' behaviour. It recognizes that a certain level of maturity is needed to handle a motorcycle - "with great power comes great responsibility." It also recognizes that without experience, it's easier to make mistakes on a more powerful bike. I started (and will continue next season) on a 250. It's forgiving and easy to ride, but is fun enough for public roads, and can easily exceed any speed limit in North America. If I started out on a 1000cc bike, there's no doubt in my mind that I would be dead right now. A friend of mine started on a 600, then stepped up to an 06 GSXR750 within a month. He wrote it off 2 weeks later. The accident wasn't his fault, but he has no question that he might have avoided it on a less powerful bike.

C'mon Moby—give yourself a little credit! I started riding on a 750, and I've ridden safely without a single "Oh shit" so far (20,000 miles in a year). It would have been the same if I'd gotten a liter bike. It's simple—it's called "don't twist the throttle so far and/or so hard." In other words, self-control.
 
When I hear stories about people morting themselves and it's blamed on CCs, it sounds analogous to someone saying "Yeah, he was holding a gun, and all of a sudden he accidentally pointed it at someone, and accidently pulled the trigger." Yeah right.
 
I agree with whoever said a moron on a 250 can still kill.
 
Scott

[cbsnbiker]

We weren't there, so we don't know how reasonable her actions were. Perhaps pulling out in front of him would have left more than an adequate space cushion for the road and traffic conditions, had he been traveling at or near 25 MPH.
 
Those who are familiar with the MSF Basic RiderCourse know about classroom discussion question #6:
 

"6. Describe one crash from your group’s experience (or that you are aware of), and briefly describe the circumstances. What would some preventive measures be?"

I get to learn about many crashes in classroom discussions. Here is one I learned about last year:
 
An elderly couple, after having supper at a restaurant, pulled out of the parking lot into the path of a high school age motorcyclist. The rider hit the car broadside, and died.
 
Reading only this info, how many of you are thinking evil thoughts about the car driver?
 
Now, let me supply a few other details. It was well after dark. Several of the traffic lights were out on that street. Maybe that mitigates things a bit?
 
Here's more info. The rider was popping a wheelie, traveling at over twice the speed limit, and accelerating. His headlight was aimed at the sky, not at the driver, who could not see it. The rider was still wheelieing when he impacted the car. Now how do you feel about the rider, vs. the driver?
 
So, what was the upshot of this? The car driver was not charged (to the best of my knowledge). However, the couple was nearly forced out of the city where they had lived their entire lives. The high school friends of the dead boy harassed the couple incessantly: vandalized their house and car, threatened their lives, etc.
 
So, who in this story were the true victims?
 
Food for thought.
 
 

Not to be the bad guy here but, did she see the bike and did she pull out in front of him? Ya he was going fast, but why did she pull out? For him to hit the driver side door tells me that she was pulling out of somewhere onto the road.
So if he was going the speed limit would she had pulled out on him and he hit the side of the car would it still be his fault?

[stinky93071]

Still not trying to be the bad guy but as negative as the story came across I think if he was on one wheel that would have been pointed out.. I feel for the family of the woman. Was the kid a dumb a$$ ya.. As cbsnbiker pointed out there can be a lot to the story that might not be told but I think anything bad about the biker that they could put down they would have..
 
  The story is slanted for the woman but a few things I would like to know.
  Did the woman wear glassed and did she have them on?
  Was she on the phone?
  Was she playing with the radio?
 
  We all have had someone pull out on us, Hell I have more then one pull out on me and then look at me like I am the one doing something wrong. And I was going less then the speed limit.
 
  I have had one women pull me over and asked “what I thought I was doing ridding down the road?” when I told her I have just as much right to be on the road with my CBR as she dose with her Tahoe then she went off on me and slap me and I called 911 the cops explained to her that I did have a right to be on the road regardless of what she thought or felt
 
  It all goes back to education; the riders and drivers.

[Cal24Master]

Still not trying to be the bad guy but as negative as the story came across I think if he was on one wheel that would have been pointed out.. I feel for the family of the woman. Was the kid a dumb a$$ ya.. As cbsnbiker pointed out there can be a lot to the story that might not be told but I think anything bad about the biker that they could put down they would have..

The story is slanted for the woman but a few things I would like to know.
Did the woman wear glassed and did she have them on?
Was she on the phone?
Was she playing with the radio?

We all have had someone pull out on us, Hell I have more then one pull out on me and then look at me like I am the one doing something wrong. And I was going less then the speed limit.

I have had one women pull me over and asked “what I thought I was doing ridding down the road?” when I told her I have just as much right to be on the road with my CBR as she dose with her Tahoe then she went off on me and slap me and I called 911 the cops explained to her that I did have a right to be on the road regardless of what she thought or felt

It all goes back to education; the riders and drivers.

I really don't think that small details make much difference when a motorcycle is traveling at a speed that it is possible to propel the motorcycle halfway through a car IN A SCHOOL ZONE!!!  For crying out loud, what if she did pull out in front of him?  What if he did have his headlight out, or any other detail that would have made it seem less the riders fault?  This was not situation where the rider was going 5, 10 or even 20MPH over the limit.  He was doing something that no person, whatever they were driving should be doing.  
 
The worse thing is that we all see other motorcycle riders doing the same stupid crap all the time.  The moron doing a wheelie down the freeway at 80MPH is just as likely to cause an accident that kills a innocent person as this moron doing 80 in a school zone.  If a SUV driver changes lanes in front a idiot doing a wheelie at 20MPH over the speed limit, is it his fault?  
 
When you use the public streets and highways as your own private race track, you shouldn't be mad at the people who are pulling out of their driveways.  It isn't their fault you are going twice the speed they are expecting traffic to be going.