First Bike: Ninja 500r vs. 250r

[bogfro]

I'll echo some of the comments on here, that some of the physically larger 650's twins would probably work well for you.  They've got good engines, have room for luggage, etc.  I've got both the Strom 650 and the SV650, and for long distance comfort the Strom is the definite winner.  You might want to check out the Versys, ER6-n, Ninja 650, Strom 650, SV650, etc.

I really don't see how the people on here who go cross-country on a 250 can do it.  I had to wring that thing's neck to get it to go.  I'd never try that loaded down with luggage!

[Squijummonkey]

I started on a 250, but quickly grew tired of its lack of power going up hills, it's cramped ergos (6'0" 170 lbs), and it's lack of luggage.  If you're wanting to tour though, you're in a tough spot, because even the 500 probably doesn't have room to hook up a bunch of hard bags to it.  But you'd probably grow tired of the 500 less quickly.  I was getting frustrated with my 250 after only having it for a month.

So it's up to you...... my guess is that for long distance riding and luggage-carrying, neither of these will fit the bill.  They're both great to start on.  See what kind of prices you can get.  You'll probably feel safer and less exposed on the 500.

The 500 has a ton of room to hook up luggage. Currently I'm using the Cortech saddle and tail bag system and there's plenty more room for hook ups: (Because my pictures are on my broken computer, I have them posted in another topic on the 500)

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,36247.0.html

The bags were about $300 for all three, whereas hard bags cost something like $3000; you're paying for over half of the bike in hard bags already...it's not worth it.

[mugwump58]

This is the place to go for 500 info:
http://www.ex-500.com/

I'm biased, I have an 06 that's just getting broke in with 48 +K miles.

Look up FOG's post regarding mods on the EX he is umm revered if you can get passed his occasional gruffness,  I couldn't spell curmudgeonenlyness.

Good hard bags will go on other bikes, only the rack is model specific. Nothing beats nice hard bags. $3,000.00 ?

[UHOH]

I am 5'11", 180lbs, am not mechanically inclined ... and would definitely want adequate power to fly uphill,
having to watch to keep from drawing radar ire even when ascending steep long climbs.

[and you're talking about Iron Buttstuff...]

So would the 250r be enough for me for a good while?  

... being blunt, NO, NO - forget the 250

get the SV650 like several of the posters mentioned,
they are also bullet proof.  

[Squijummonkey]

Good hard bags will go on other bikes, only the rack is model specific. Nothing beats nice hard bags. $3,000.00 ?

  I guess I was thinking of those beetle bags from Corbin. I'm sure there are less expensive ones out there.

[birdrunner]

I'd go for a KLR............ sorry, but I think it'd be just a blast hitting the forestry roads around around Merrit and Hope.

[Rusty the Scoob]

I went straight from a 50cc scooter to the SV650 with few problems.  I even rode about 200 miles on the SV before taking the MSF course.   For learning, I just kept the RPMs low.  I found the power band once early on and said "wow, that's cool.  NOT going to do that again for a while though"   Seriously, it's a very controllable bike.  

Yes, you could get yourself into trouble on it if you tried, but if you take the mature, cautious approach, the bike won't get you into trouble.

[Poustman]

Great responses, everyone!  Thanks very much.

I'm very encouraged by the comments on the SV650, which I find one of the most physically attractive bikes out there.  There's an electric blue one I see on the roads here fairly regularly, and a yellow one in town as well I've noticed, and I find it hard not to gawk-- even more than with other bikes I see.  (There is also an F800ST in our townhouse complex, with full hard bags-- lovely!)

I'm also delighted to hear that many have found the 250r to be quite able to handle the duties-- though others feel it takes some flogging to do so.  

The one comment on the KLR was shrewd:  I do like the dual sport idea very much (I happen to have had a F800GS as wallpaper for a good while-- the dual sport with styling I like best in that category) though the sport styling and desire to do longer paved road rides speaks loudly.

I appreciate the many points of input; it is good to get the sense that just about any bike is going to be a great deal of fun once a rider settles on that particular mount.  The process of choosing is fun, too!  

I like it here .

[njd]

Well I'm slightly biased, but my vote would go for the ex500. Especially over the sv650. I think the sv650 is NOT a good beginner bike. Can a beginner learn on it and do ok? Sure. But there is a lot more potential for trouble on it. The ex500 is a very capable lightweight standard/sport bike.

I recently added bar risers to mine, plus this


I have a powerbronze flip touring windshield on its way, and I'm thinking of adding thicker grips.

Oh and this was my second bike.

[mugwump58]

I like it here .

Abandon all hope, for ye are lost.  

[brianm767]

My daughters first bike at age 16 was a Ninja 500, and she did great on it, went with the 500 over the 250 because we got a great deal on it, if fit my daughter perfectly, power was fine for a neewbie, and we didn't want to replace the 250 after a few months of riding,   we also had a Ninja 250 here for a couple of years, stored, it and maintained it for my wife's good friend, the whole family rode it every week.

Yes the Ninja 250 is a great  learning bike, probably the best learning bike out there, but in my opinion, if you can handle the weight of a Ninja 500, I'd go with it, what we found with the Ninja 250 is , yes it's a great learning bike, but to me, it's underpowered, fine for a newbie putting around town , and yes it will do over 100MPH, takes a while to get there, but when we would go for rides, and pull onto freeways,  especially with some one heavy , like me on the bike, 195lbs we didn't feel it had enough power to safely merge onto some of our short on ramps around here , had to wind it out to get up to merging speed, and if the traffic is hauling a$$, some times we felt it was even dangerous , didn't have enough power to avoid some situations.

The owner of the Ninja 250 was a female , probably  5' 3" and 120lbs, after a couple months on the bike, she wanted a bigger bike,  she said she just needed a bit more power , around town she felt fine, once up to cruising speeds she felt fine, but she too said it just didn't have enough to feel safe at merging, or getting out of some A holes way, and she said she had to just about red line it all the time to keep up with the flow of traffic

My daughters second bike at 17 was a SV650S, great bike, easy to ride, but a little torquey, had to be careful of that, and since it was a V Twin and has a lot of compression, when  down shifting, it was easy to lock the rear tire momentary when decelerating very quickly, fun for me, but a newbie needs to be aware of it and get used to it.

Many Die hard Ninja 250 fans will say, heck you don't know what your talking about, you don't know how to manage RPM's , I've done 125 MPH and toured the world on my Ninja 250 two up!! , it's all the power you'll ever need, and to them, I'm happy for you,  but for me, and every one in our family who rode the little Ninjette, we will all say, for a beginner bike, to learn the basics on, it is probably the best bike out there for that,  just be aware of it's limitations, and you'll be fine, but as every one here who rode it,  and as our local dealerships tells me, almost every one who starts on the Ninja 250, normally within less than a year, they are back and buying a Ninja 500, 650R or a SV650.

If you re looking for a bike to learn the basics on, and are planning on upgrading very soon, I'd go with a Ninja 250, if you are planning on keeping the first bike for a while, going on any tours or extended rides, carrying any extras, and can handle the weight of a Ninja 500 or maybe a 650R or SV650, I'd go that route, you will not out grow it in the first year.

If you want to tour , another great bike, that many tour on, is a Suzuki V Strom (Wee strom, 650cc) , same engine as the SV650, it is a bit tall, but very comfy, makes a great touring bike, has much better ergonomics, than a Ninja 500, 650r or a SV650naked or "S" model for long rides. also a Kawi Versey is a great bike for touring.

And as fas as your comment  about the KLR   ""  though the sport styling and the desire to do longer paved roads rides speaks loudly"",   well honestly it's the sport styling that makes the longer rides harder, trust me, I have over 100K miles on sport bikes in my life, from 600's to my Hayabusa's and Blackbirds, and it's the aggressive sport styling that makes them bad for long rides, a V Strom or Verseys or even KLR minus the vibes makes them much more comfortable on longer rides. but yes, sport bikes look good, but as with myself and many others, first thing we do to our sport bikes we want to tour on is put on taller screens , higher bars, lower pegs etcc to make them better for long hauls, more like a V Strom.

Daughters first bike,



Daughters second bike,the day she got it, and after we did a few mods to it, notice how high the bars are over the Clip ons, best mod ever.



Our friend and myself, giving her her first ride on her Ninja250, she out grew this bike in less than 5 months.

 
 Out of these bikes, if I was going to do long rides on one, I'd take the SV650S with handle bars and install some givi hard luggage.  if I was going to buy a bike in this class to do some Iron butt stuff, it I was tall enough for it, I'd buy a low mileage used V Strom.

[Poustman]

Thanks BrianM767-- that was a very helpful rundown.  And ScottB, I hadn't really ever considered the ER-6N-- I'd really sort of capped out sports bikes at 500cc.  But if the general feeling is that a mature approach makes them a reasonable choice for a beginner, I am happy to alter my thinking.

Perhaps I would benefit from looking more closely at the Wee.  When I say I'm not as big on its looks, I mean 'as compared to a pure sport-look'; I still like it well enough.  I suppose it has the added advantage of being very capable on gravel and dirt, though if I understand it, it isn't as much dirt-capable as the smaller, lighter dual sports...? I've sort of put it into the category of also-ran, thinking it was a dual sport that was weak on dirt, but if it is ok on dirt and excellent for longer asphalt rides, I need to repent.

I've heard tell that the 500r is also pretty secure on gravel roads; any thoughts on that, and/or on the SV650 on gravel?  I'm heeding the point birdrunner made earlier:  there are many wonderful fire and forest roads in BC that I know I'd like.  That's one reason I am haunted by the F800GS-- I love everything about that bike except the $$$, and it is the only dual-sport I recall seeing whose looks somehow perfectly work for me.  I've even done a great deal of research on the XT225, for goodness sakes, because the off-road opportunities around here are so great. The 225, though, is likely too slanted towards dirt work, leaving the longer asphalt a little wanting.  I know many feel it is fine, but I'm pretty sure I'd fine it too thin on slabs.

[njd]

I've done some light gravel roads on my ex500. I've never had any dirt/offroad experience ever in my life, so it was certainly scary. But the 500 handled it surprisingly well. You just can't let yourself get carried away.

I took my msf course on an xt250, and it was a blast to ride. If you're interested in some off road, maybe consider the versys? It has decent ground clearance and a nice big tank.

[UHOH]

I've heard tell that the 500r is also pretty secure on gravel roads; any thoughts on that, and/or on the SV650 on gravel?

traded off a naked SV650 vs WeeStrom on paved and then gravel forest service road in Oregon.
Both myself and the SV owner liked the SV better on both types of roads; SV had sport touring tires, nothing special.  
I was surprised, because of the rep of dual purpose bike being better for gravel.  Note: I go slowly on gravel roads.

The tall WeeStrom owner liked the WeeStrom better.

[Poustman]

I just saw a picture of a 2009 Wee in Orange.  Somehow the colour really changed the appearance:  seemed to add just the right spark.  Nice.

[brianm767]

IMOP, bottom line is, if you really want to ride dirt, none of the bikes mentioned are great, nor very good in the dirt, The Wee strom looks like a dirt bike, but I wouldn't take it on any thing other than nice clean fire roads, once again, IMOP it's only a matter of time before your going to go down in the dirt on these bikes with sport tourer tires,   I've had my ST1300 in the dirt, and as soon as it gets a little sandy or loose, it's scary! of course it weighs 700 lbs! now if I had a Wee Strom and I put some knobbys on it, then I'd feel pretty secure on the fire roads.

For dirt, I'd go with a bike like a KLR650 , BMX 650GS (very popular touring/mild dirt bike) Honda XR650L or some thing like that, if you do plan on allot of highway miles, and only smooth fire trails, and no serious off road stuff, maybe a Wee Strom with some off road tires, but sport tour or sport tires, on dirt, and it's only a matter of time before you and the dirt will become one.

   My ST at MT Shasta, this was a nice compacted fire road, and even it was spooky, street tires are just not made for this stuff.  

[Rusty the Scoob]

I just saw a picture of a 2009 Wee in Orange.  Somehow the colour really changed the appearance:  seemed to add just the right spark.  Nice.

Yep!  That really looks good!

[Zerosum]

Perhaps I would benefit from looking more closely at the Wee.  When I say I'm not as big on its looks, I mean 'as compared to a pure sport-look'; I still like it well enough.  I suppose it has the added advantage of being very capable on gravel and dirt, though if I understand it, it isn't as much dirt-capable as the smaller, lighter dual sports...? I've sort of put it into the category of also-ran, thinking it was a dual sport that was weak on dirt, but if it is ok on dirt and excellent for longer asphalt rides, I need to repent.

The V-Strom is pretty heavy for true dirt riding.  It's "dirt assets" are its wide handlebars, long suspension travel and 19" front wheel.  (Most street bikes have 17" wheels, the Strom has a 19" front and a 17" rear.)  So the Strom is good at absorbing decent-sized bumps.  Speed bumps do not exist when you're on a Wee Strom.    You can roll right over a curb on it if you know what you're doing.  The stock Bridgestone Trailwing tires are good on the street, okay in gravel and sand, but utterly SUCK in mud.  Mud + Trailwings = dropped bike.

BUT, in the end, it's a street bike with dirt bike features.  It's heavy, and the plastic fairings are the first "point of contact" with the ground.  Also, the exhaust pipes, oil cooler and oil fliter are hanging out in the open below the motor.  Scraping those on a log would ruin your day.  Of course, you can spend ~$500 to "up-armour" the bike with crash bars and a belly plate.  But for me, a good rule of thumb is: Don't take it anywhere you wouldn't take a pickup truck.  But then, I'm not much of a dirt rider.

As for it's street capabilities, it's great on bumpy urban streets and rural backroads.  Plenty of pep though the low and mid-range RPMs.  IMO, It can be ridden every bit as hard as any other 650 twin.  It is comfortable on long distances, but the stock seat will have you stopping every 100 miles or so.  On the highway, it is a little bit of a dog.  It'll cruise at ~75-80 mph all day long, but you're reving the thing at about 6K RPM (60% of redline) non-stop, which is a little tiresome.   A lot of guys replace the stock 15-tooth front sprocket with a 16-tooth, which lowers the engine speed by about 500 RPM in every gear --> less torque, more relaxed highway riding.  Other guys go the OTHER way and install a 14-tooth for more torque and worse highway performance.

Here's how mine is set up.  She's pretty much fully outfitted at this point.  I'd like a better seat and a better windshield, but that's about it.

[Marcster]

My :

I took the Beginner's MSF course in May '08 having never been on a bike before.

September '08 I bought a Kymco 250 scooter (twist and go) and rode it for 800 safe, accident-free miles.  I took the Experienced MSF course on it back in April '09.

I just traded the scooter in on a Yamaha Diversion (it's a Seca II) on August 1, 2009.  A docile beginner's/commuter's bike, makes about 61 hp vs. the 18.4 hp the scooter had.  I've put about 1500 miles on it in two months (going to the Eastern ST.N rally was a big part of that).  I've also dumped it twice on the right side (at a stop the first time and at about 2 mph this last time).    This last time, my foot was pinned underneath the 400 lb. bike.

If you have never ridden before, I'd strongly recommend a used bike that's been around the block a few times...  A Ninja 500r or a Suzuki GS500f would be a great choice:



The GS500f makes a little less hp than the Ninja 500r, but it doesn't sound like you want to ring every last horse out of the engine anyway, so I think it would be fine for you.

Or, you could go the route I did and look for a Seca II or a Suzuki Bandit 600 (they're pretty comparable).

But based on my experience, I wouldn't recommend sinking a whole lot of money into a first bike (Versys, V-Strom, etc.)

One other thing, soft bags aren't secure like hard bags (and they aren't inherently waterproof, but I use Ziploc's XL-sized Big Bags inside to hold my clothes and stuff), they are much, much cheaper and usually transferable from bike to bike (unless you completely switch styles and go to a cruiser, for instance).  The Big Bags were perfect -- I rode up to the rally in pouring rain and my stuff was completely dry.

My bike with soft bags:



One last thing...  Engine guards or frame sliders.  Get 'em.  Much cheaper than replacing broken engine parts.  Best $45 I ever spent (ebay, new-old-stock).

[Poustman]

More food for thought!  I'd never heard of the Suzuki GS500f-- there are so many bikes out there, we newbs can miss some good ones.  Big hp isn't crucial for me-- esp. to start with.

The KLR is a possibility.  It is relatively inexpensive, tough enough to go anywhere, has a good cachet in terms of the feel (utility-cool factor).  I can definitely see why so many riders have more than one bike:  the tractor-like off-road specialist makes you feel unstoppable (overused, I know) and the impossibly cool spaceship sport bike incinerates the miles.

Was checking out the Varadero on the Honda.ca site yesterday.  From what I understand it is highly capable offroad, though much heavier than the KLR.  I get the sense it is a V-Strom/Versys competitor, and probably better in dirt.

On the bright side, am job hunting, so since I can't afford a bike at the moment I have plenty of time to savour considering the options.  (This is transparently me talking myself through resisting temptation to buy before it is prudent!)