[ISTKOSTN] Gun Question

[dm_gsxr]

Probably opening up a can of worms here but in reading a few of the other gun threads here, I thought I'd bring it to the gang

A little background so you know how much of a newb I am

My dad had a few guns; 30.06 and 357 Magnum Revolver off the top of my head. He bought me a .22 with a scope. We never did anything with them though; no hunting or even much in the way of target shooting.

I have an uncle who bow hunts (still does) and I lived with his family for a year, so some exposure to hunting.

I was in the military (Marines and Army) for 8 years and scored Expert in rifle and pistol on the range (not hard to do in my opinion though; seemed like everyone got one). I do recall being the fastest in assembling a .45 blindfolded while in training. I was also an MP so I carried a .45 for a year or so.

So I'm not unfamiliar with firearms and firearm safety.

Last weekend Rita expressed an interest in getting a handgun for safety. She works for the Forest Service (not carrying while on duty; no worries there) so she feels it her duty, even when "off duty" to check for camping tags or tell people to leash their dogs when we're out hiking.

That's not a gigantic deal, except that there have been several incidents this year where folks have been attacked on the trails. A couple was accosted in a camping area by a homeless guy with a rifle and handcuffed to a tree. Yesterday several people were robbed up at the Buffalo Bill Memorial in the parking lot (they have pictures of the robbers using the cards at the mall). Last year after we moved in, someone broke in to the neighbor houses and Vicki (neighbor) accosted the guy who bailed.

So I spoke to one of the local gun guys at work. He had several suggestions for Rita, who's looking for something with a magazine and light. He suggested looking at the 380 range. He also made a couple of other suggestions including hitting the gun show that's here this weekend to handle several different models and get a feel (of course without a magazine, there's a bit of a difference in weight). Another one was not to buy at the gun show itself and to not get something with the wrong name. Think about being in court and a defense lawyer pipes up with "she shot him with a S&W Judge! She decided she was the Judge and Jury." Probably not a gigantic big deal but something to think about

In the mean time I was also checking out a few for myself. Feel and balance. So far they've all been revolvers though, the ones that felt the best I mean.

Now I'm aware of the gun laws here in Colorado, I popped in to the Colorado site and read up on them.

With that behind me now (just wanted you to know where I stood ).

I like the thought of not buying at a gun show. Keeps me from impulse buying which I'm prone to do. Rita found a Ruger 380 she liked at the show.

I'm looking for something I can carry when we're hiking and camping. So I'm not looking for something that weighs 10 lbs. I do like the revolvers I checked out today (just saying).

I guess the question here is, how do I know what's good? How do I make a good selection? Searching on the 'net points me at 6 billion sites from all ranges.

Carl

[black hills]

I'm sure it will spiral out of control before long
my opinion:
find somthing she is comfortable shooting. If it kicks too much she won't shoot it enough to get comfortable with it. It does no good if you can't hit what you are shooting at. revolvers are simple, I prefer semiautos as they provide another level of safety around kids (my 11 year old can't cycle the slide) but it's simply what you are cmfortable with.
Caliber doesn't matter a whole lot as long as you are .380 or a above (I wouldn't go smaller than 9mm). When I'm hiking in the woods with the kids I carry a Walther PPS .40. It's slim and light, hold 8 rounds, and I can usually hit what I am aiming at. I'm sure there will be someone along shortly to explain how wrong I am, but according to the traumna surgeon at my handgun class even a .45 won't do much more damage than a 9mm. Handgun rounds simply are too slow to cause peripheral damage. it simply pokes a bigger hole, which the body is fairly good at plugging up. 90% of people shot with a handgun survive .
Once you try a few out and decide what to get (stick with name brands and plan on spending arpound $500) run at least a couple hundred rounds through it to get used to it. have her take some decent training (like you've had) because she most likely won't learn it from you as well as she will from a stranger.
good luck

[lizard]

From what I've seen the past couple of years, 380 ammo is currently more difficult and costly to purchase or reload than many other calibers. Becoming proficient and maintaining a reasonable level of proficiency is paramount if one has any plans of using a weapon for self defense. That means shooting a good bit. From what I've experienced recently, 9mm, 40S&W, and 45 acp ammo are the least expensive to shoot.

As far as finding the right weapon, try and handle as many as possible at stores, find one that feels comfortable, check out online reviews, and try to either rent or find somebody you know that has one and shoot it. I've purchased a few without having the opportunity to fire them and it's been 50/50 on whether they wound up as keepers or got sold off.

[Orpheus]

Find a local indoor range and gun shop.  Usually those will let you rent firearms to test drive.

I personally don't like .380.  The ammo has come a long way in the past few years but honestly it seems that I hear about issues with .380 pistols more than anything else.

I'd get her the largest caliber she's comfortable firing in a firearm that she's comfortable carrying, handling and most important accurate with the first shot.  Nothing's worse than a fast miss.

My ex has a Glock 27 in .40 cal.  It's compact, easy to draw, fits female hands well, no hammers or levers to snag on clothing.  Went bang every single time we fired it.

My problem is that I'm not accurate with Glocks.  I can draw, fire, and it goes way low every single time.  I'm a Sig Sauer guy, I carry a P220, a full frame .45.  I can drop you on a draw every time.  That would most likely be too big for her to conceal but they have a full line of compacts.

It's kinda like bikes.  You have to weigh the intended purpose, how you're going to use it most and how comfortable it is to use.

[stefrrr]

I have a Walther p22. It's my first gun. Ammo is cheap and easy to find, it's easy to aim and reliable. I recommend it.  

[paddy_crow]

Personally, I'd go with 9mm. For a woman, look for single row magazine instead of staggered. Tends to be easier for those with smaller hands to grip.

If I were buying right now, I'd probably lean toward Glock and probably the model 26 with an extended magazine (for a three fingered grip). I have a Beretta Model 92 FS which has been a very solid performer, but it's on the heavy side. But the Glock is a staggered mag.

Kahr and Walther make great single row 9mm pistols. A friend of mine has a Kel-Tec PF-9 that is about as small and light as they come, but I'm not sure I'd want to put a lot of rounds through it.

[coho]

I'm sure it will spiral out of control before long

 

Carry on.  

[paddy_crow]

While I'm partial to autos, revolvers are a good choice. You can't beat the simplicity and reliability, much less to go wrong than an autoloader. There are also plenty of well made light, compact models. I wouldn't carry anything smaller than .38 Special.

[Tony T]

This is the same as what bike is best for me questions. Best thing to do is to go to your local range and rent a bunch of different guns. (Ask friends if they have some you can shoot too.) You will quickly find a caliber you and Rita like then you can narrow it down to balance and feel of the gun. But be aware that some guns of the same caliber will kick differently/harder that others of the same calibers.

Stick with name brands too.  

Good luck.

[1KPerDay]

Get her something that fits her hand well and feels good to her. That's priority one.

1. A Smith and Wesson L or K frame .357 would hard to beat IMO, particularly for a "newbie. (start her on .38 specials; .357s are HOT)
2. Ruger GP100 or SP101 would be good also
"3. A 9mm Glock 19, Springfield XD 4", or S&W M&P 4" would be good choices IF they fit her hand well.

Get training, practice a lot.

[OmegaSix]

My opinion - In a life-threatening situation, we MUST acknowledge the emotional impact of our behavior.  Specifically, the best of us will be close to panic.  The rest will be fully in a state of emotional shock.

Under those conditions, pistols and revolvers are very, very close to useless.

A Mossberg 500 on the other hand, loaded up with #4 buckshot is not.

It's lightweight, maneuverable in confined spaces, and dead simple to operate (making it dead reliable)

Either class of weapon requires training - and lots of it - but in a pinch, the Mossy is dramatically more likely to succeed at it's mission:

Put that target down hard, so that she can come home.

[1KPerDay]

Like she's going to walk around with a shotgun.

[bassjones]

Like she's going to walk around with a shotgun.

 

[bsd43]

Find a local indoor range and gun shop.  Usually those will let you rent firearms to test drive.

[Blunder]

Like she's going to walk around with a shotgun.

Nobody messes with an obviously armed woman.


I second, or third, the suggestion of visiting a shooting range that will let you "rent" various firearms. Rita will find something she likes and you'll have to stop looking at other women.  

[Thundergod]

I would recommend a .22 for several reasons.

Lightweight, easy to carry/conceal (make sure your wife gets a CC permit). Some people think that the .22 isn't a real gun because of the small caliber.
But the .22 is a highly effective round for personal defense. Most magazines will hold a high volume due to the small size, and the use of hallow point .22 Longs
make it a lethal combination.

Now its doesn't have the knock down power of a .45, which would throw someone several feet back....and to the left. But who needs knock down power if you are cranking rounds into their chest.
Most people, unless they are hopped up on PCP would stop doing whatever they are doing after the first bullet would strike.

Lastly, while most larger calibers would go right through a person, the .22 will "rattle around inside" and again in combination with hallowpoint create a fantastic personal defense carry which is lightweight, highly effective and manageable for women. (an excellent non-scary caliber for a beginner)

Personally I have a FNP-45 for home protection loaded with Hornady TAP FPD - But its too large for a CC. Plus the cost-- each time a pull the trigger with cheap ammo its about 60 Cents, for a .22 its about a penny to 3 cents.

Don't buy at a gun show - you will find better prices at Sportsman's warehouse, or my favorite gun shop in Denver -  5280 Armory in Arvada (HUGE SELECTION - probably 3 million dollar inventory)

[Lone-ZG-Rider]

WOW! whatever you do, I would suggest you NOT listen to the above post about a .22. Someone has either been getting their info from gun control websites or just totally making it up. I kept hoping to see a wink or a smiley, but they weren't there. Yes, a .22 can be quite effective if you happen to be either a skilled assassin or very lucky. In most instances where the round has to penetrate one or more layers of clothing or even a barrier of some sort, the lil .22 is going to fall far short of being effective. Now if you are able to walk up and put one in the bad guy's eye socket or behind their ear, it may be ok, but that is not generally possible. If someone is under the effects of drugs or alcohol, they may not even be aware they have been shot with one. They are a great gun for practice, plinking, and skills competitions, but when playtime is over, they are not the right choice.

.380 at an absolute minimum, but I would not want to rely on it as everything has to go "right" for it to be an effective self defense round. It also is going to potentially have penetration issues and will rely on a certain amount of luck or lots of skill to reliably be an effective defense weapon as well. A friend of mine shot an attacker twice at point blank range (one in the torso, one in the leg) and the person was able to continue beating my friends ass before walking away.  Also as another poster said, .380 ammo is expensive and not real available right now.

As to revolver or semi-auto, that is a personal preference. What is she more comfortable with? Revolvers tend to be more user friendly, while semi-autos you need to be able to work slide, lock, magazine, etc and be able to clear any jams. Go to a range that has a variety of rental guns and see what is comfortable and what she shoots well. Look at the situation you are wanting to defend yourself in, and then tailor your choice to that situation.

You need to have a reliable and effective caliber/gun combination with a high likelihood of ending the threat with 1-2 well placed shots. Those shots should be center mass, and the more energy they transfer the better. People outdoors, in the woods, etc are likely to have multiple layers of clothes and weapons of their own. They are also quite likely to not be alone and you may find yourself facing more than one bad guy. This is where capacity or speed of reload can become a factor. A 5-6 shot revolver will take a skilled person 5-6 seconds minimum to reload without any stress or adrenalin slowing things down. A semi auto can have anywhere from 7-17 rounds (or more) before having to reload and the reload time under no stress drops to just 2-3 seconds.
 
Need to also take into consideration the method of carry, whether concealed or open, on body or in a purse or pack. As to caliber, 9mm/.40/.45 are all common and capable. For a revolver, I would go with a .357mag. you can always practice with .38s and then carry full power loads. My wife carries a Ruger SP101 in .357. Nice gun but it is pretty heavy, she carries in her purse though so not an issue. Contrary to the above post, these calibers do not over penetrate or exit if you are using quality self defense ammo with HP engineered to penetrate clothing or barriers and then expand after entering the bad guy.

My most carried gun is a S&W J-frame .357. I also carry a pocket 9mm at times or a Glock of various calibers depending on where I am going, what I am wearing, and other factors. When I go in the woods, I am usually carrying a Glock 21 .45acp if not a rifle. My primary concern in the woods is 2 legged critters, those are the ones that cause the most trouble, but this is effective should a 4-legged critter have a problem. The same Glock is my usual nightstand gun as well with a light mounted on it, but in this role it is only to get me to the shotgun.

Gun shows are not bad if you go knowing what you are looking for and what constitutes a good price for it. Absolutely not the place for impulse buying. I have seen folks paying as much as $150 over retail for guns simply because they did not know what current market prices were. Once you have done your research and decided on what you want, absolutely go and look to see if you can get a good deal. I  have bought guns at $100 or more UNDER current prices. As usual, knowledge is power.

The Ruger LCP is a good little gun. I had one for a short time, but decided that I could pocket a slightly larger gun and got a single stack 9mm instead (Taurus PT 709). If you have to go smaller, it is better to HAVE a small gun then to leave the bigger gun at home because of size/weight issues. As far as "What's good?" that is personal to you and your situation. Personally, I would stick with the big name brands like Glock, Sig Sauer, Ruger, Springfield Armory, HK, Kimber, S&W, etc. of course they tend to be a little pricier. If cost is a major factor, there are what I would call second tier brands such as Taurus, Charter Arms, Kel-Tec, etc. that don't have the same fit and finish, but are reliable guns at lower prices. If you know your stuff, buying used can save you money, but if you aren't savvy you would be better buying new where you have a warranty to protect you should there be a problem.

I would recommend www.sigforum.com as a great resource for gun info. They have a lot of knowledgeable folks for ALL types of guns, not just Sigs. It is a good board with mostly reasonable and mature members and a huge amount of good info for any aspect of firearms use or ownership.

www.budsgunshop.com will give you a good idea on what current market prices are, they generally have the "right" selling prices. Expect brick and mortar store prices to be a little higher (maybe 10-15%), any more and than that, and it is probably too high of a price. Like a lot of things, "MSRP" on guns tends to be inflated and not reflect actual prices. If you are buying at a show, deduct accordingly for any used gun and I would not buy a new gun unless I could get it for 15% or more OFF of local store prices. With a local store, you have some place to go back to if there is a problem, gun shows are generally "buyer beware" so you are accepting some risk. Of course many gun stores will have a table at local gun shows and as such are just as "safe" as if you bought from the store itself. Again, you need to know what is what and have done your homework.



PS - "The Judge" is made by Taurus, not S&W. As to the likelihood of the model name becoming an issue, I wouldn't concern myself with it. In real trials and grand jury hearings, what matters is the circumstances and justification of the shooting, not the model name, caliber, trigger pull, accessories, etc.

[dm_gsxr]

Nobody messes with an obviously armed woman.


I second, or third, the suggestion of visiting a shooting range that will let you "rent" various firearms. Rita will find something she likes and you'll have to stop looking at other women.    toys

Fixed that for ya. I'm a one woman man but I do have lots of toys (books, computers, games, motorcycles )

Thanks for all the advise folks. We'll hit one of the local ranges and rent a few to get a feel and then probably hit Sportsman's Warehouse since it has such a large selection.

Carl

[mailman1175]

Someone has been getting their info from gun control websites.

A confident user of a handgun of any caliber can get the job done. 10 rounds of .22LR, center of mass, will almost certainly incapacitate anyone who's not tripping PCP. If she's comfortable with a larger caliber, practices enough to be confident with it, and is comfortable carrying it and bringing it to action, fine. But confidence and accuracy are worth more than muzzle energy or stopping power.

Of course, reasonable people can disagree... and I'm sure you'll disagree, whether reasonably or not. Just sayin', there's more than one way to plug a perp.

[Orpheus]

My concern with a .22 (Which is as lethal as anything else with proper placement.) is that it fails to deliver that "WTF just hit me?" punch something like a modern .380 and up will give.  Also while the intent is never to just wing someone the potential is there.  Now you have someone that's hurt, had mal intent in the first place and the stakes have now been raised to full on life or death.

A 32oz. Powerade bottle of solid ice stopped this 1200 FPS .22LR bullet with about 1/4" of ice to go.  Fired from a Ruger Mark III pistol.



However a shot of the same placement with a .40 literally blew an identical bottle apart.  There's a lot to be said for energy delivered especially with the first shot.

Now if a .22 is what she's happiest with then by all means go there.  Training is really far more effective than caliber.  Again, it's just like motorcycles and courses such as Ride Like a Pro or Total Control.  Just how well do you want to wield your weapon of choice?  As I said a fast miss with a howitzer is worthless against a well placed stone from a slingshot.