Brammo reveals 100mph Empulse electric motorcycle [engadget.com]

[UFO]

The electric motorcycle market is heating up.



The Empulse is a radical departure from the Enertia, indicated by the way the company is promoting the thing. When we test rode that first bike Brammo reps were a little cagey about its top speed, initially indicating it would be limited to 50mph but later saying it'd do over 60 if you pushed it. With the Empulse they're making no bones about its 100mph+ top speed. That's hardly world-class in the world of motorcycles, but in the world of electric motorcycles it's a definite rarity.



Full article here:  http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/15/brammo-goes-street-fighting-with-the-100mph-empulse-electric-mot/

[DogBoy]

Bramo Empulse. Top speed over 100 mph, 100 mile range, 59 ft lbs of torque, 390 lbs, quality suspension and brakes. And IMO it looks great.

Spec wise, I think this bike is in some ways comparable with a Monster 696 or 796. I'm not a rampant environmentalist, tree hugger or anything but these bikes have come a long way in a short time.

[DogBoy]

Looks like UFO and I had a Vulcan mind meld.

Mods, can you merge or wisk off to NeverNeverLand.

[UFO]

Doh.  Beat you by a few minutes.  Merged.

[bomber]

Really rapid development rate -- this'll be fun to watch . . .

On a slightly twisted note, am I the only one that finds the Brammo name a bit unfortunate -- kinda late night cable-ish?

"We've assembles a group of die-hard motorcycle riders to watch ius put the new Brammo through it's paces, ladies and gentlemen -- Brammo, another Popeil Brand"

[Rincewind]

Bramo Empulse. Top speed over 100 mph, 100 mile range, 59 ft lbs of torque, 390 lbs, quality suspension and brakes. And IMO it looks great.

Spec wise, I think this bike is in some ways comparable with a Monster 696 or 796. I'm not a rampant environmentalist, tree hugger or anything but these bikes have come a long way in a short time.

What would kick-ass if it beat the Monsters in the quarter-mile and 0-60mph.  With electric, that is entirely possible.

I like it.  I'm glad they put the sexiness into the design.  100-mph tops is AOK with me, though 100-mile range is still a bit low.

[Kraz]

$14,000 for the 100 mile ranger.

That's quite a bit...

...but I still want one.

[UFO]

On a slightly twisted note, am I the only one that finds the Brammo name a bit unfortunate -- kinda late night cable-ish?

Okay, I'll be straight up honest.

My first thought is that it's an Engrish version of Blammo, the fake toy company from Ren and Stimpy.  But only super nerds would think like this.

[chornbe]

$14,000 for the 100 mile ranger.

That's quite a bit...

...but I still want one.

It's getting there, for sure.  

We were talking a lot about electric bikes on this week's show. Between this bike (real-world usability) and the Native-S we discussed (real-world pricing), we're so, so very close to viable e-bikes hitting the streets.

We live in wonderful times, people!

[Rincewind]

Okay, I'll be straight up honest.

My first thought is that it's an Engrish version of Blammo, the fake toy company from Ren and Stimpy.  But only super nerds would think like this.

CLASSIC

[zx14dreamin]

Okay, I'll be straight up honest.

My first thought is that it's an Engrish version of Blammo, the fake toy company from Ren and Stimpy.  But only super nerds would think like this.

Its loooog its looooog its big its heavy its wood,........from BLAMMO!   I thought the same thing  

[Kraz]

Update: We have some specs thanks to Hell for Leather, namely a horsepower rating of 55 with 59lb-ft of torque and a weight of 390lbs. That's comparable to your average 600cc sportsbike and far torquier, but also a good bit down on power compared to them. Still, all that torque here will be available from 0 RPM, which should make this thing deliciously fun to ride.

 

Comparable to a 600cc sportbike?  55hp/59ft-lbs?  Really?  In the article they said it felt more like a scooter than a sportbike.  Which is OK, but I'm not sure it's so consistant.

[chornbe]

 

Comparable to a 600cc sportbike?  55hp/59ft-lbs?  Really?  In the article they said it felt more like a scooter than a sportbike.  Which is OK, but I'm not sure it's so consistant.

I think that's a comma/parenthesis issue... I think they were saying the WEIGHT is comparable to a 600 sportie.  

I'd have written it like this if that were the intent:

We have some specs thanks to Hell for Leather, namely a horsepower rating of 55 with 59lb-ft of torque and a weight of 390lbs; a weight which is comparable to your average 600cc sportsbike. While torquier, it is also a good bit down on power compared to the 600s. Still, all that torque here will be available from 0 RPM, which should make this thing deliciously fun to ride.

Rather horribly written originally.  

[Kraz]

Yeah, that makes more sense.

 

I wonder how the license requirement will pan out.  I think in certain states you can ride a scooter under 50cc w/o a license... I'm curious as to what happens when everything goes electric.

Not that I don't have a license, I just wouldn't want a bunch of doods on 100mph electric bikes w/o licenses.

Also, interesting that it has bar end mirrors from the factory.

[KodiakRS]

I think this would make the ultimate commuter bike for those of us who aren't willing to go the scooter route.  

[Giaka]

I think this would make the ultimate commuter bike for those of us who aren't willing to go the scooter route.  

When the price comes down a wii bit more I will be down. I can manage with something that will go 70 mph and have at least 100 mile range assuming I can plug it in at work and it will be ready to ride home 8 hrs later.

[DogBoy]

When the price comes down a wii bit more I will be down. I can manage with something that will go 70 mph and have at least 100 mile range assuming I can plug it in at work and it will be ready to ride home 8 hrs later.

I think the Federal Tax Credit is 10% and CA has a $1500 credit, IIRC. Other states have similar incentives. These are tax credits so you apply them at the end of the year. You'd still have to pay $$s up front for the bike and sales tax, title and license on the retail price, I'm guessing.

[steve.m]

brammo has a looooong ways to go before they catch up to the likes of moto csysz (if i spelled that properly).  the biggest thing they need to perfect is hot swap batteries.  moto is there, brammo is not.  moto also uses permanent magnet motors.  the performance curve of those are absolutely amazing, and they're abilities were shown at the IOM TT zero.  granted the cost difference is about a bajillion dollars between the two bikes, but give it a few years and things will even out.

[chornbe]

Check out the Native-S

We just had a discussion about this one last night.

$4,500 with lead-acid batteries.
$7,500 with LION batteries.

short range, but real-world speeds and a price point that puts them within reach for "working man" early adopters.  

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2010-native-s-review-89745.html

[antvq]

Interesting bike, but with 100 miles of range it wouldn't get me to work and back.  I'm waiting for batteries that can be fully recharged quickly, not in hours.  

[D-Mac]

Very interesting development. A major improvement over their last bike, which is only about a year old. If I lived in a major city, I'd think hard about this.

Cut the price down to under 8K, increase the range 50% (or decrease charging time), and maybe increase the HP another 25%. Then I'll buy one.

They're getting closer.......I'm rooting for these guys.

EDIT: Watched the video. They're smart to sell different options. It looks cool and well built too. Put some bags on that thing and I'm tempted NOW. Someone is gonna get this formula right and it'll do for them what the Dream/CB350/CB750 did for Honda.

[chornbe]

Very interesting development. A major improvement over their last bike, which is only about a year old. If I lived in a major city, I'd think hard about this.

Cut the price down to under 8K, increase the range 50% (or decrease charging time), and maybe increase the HP another 25%. Then I'll buy one.

I think your wants are a little in conflict. Inside a major city, I would say the need for increasing HP is obviated by the short distances, stop-n-start nature and the fact that the harder you run it, the less running time you get (which is true of all the electrics).

I'd argue that the major push shouldn't be for more power, but for longer running times and shorter charges - even if, in the urban setting, you actually end up losing some top-end speed. If the top speed is, say, 50, you can get to 50 on one of these much faster than nearly every car you're likely to be lined up with at the stop signs and red lights in the city.

Plus... HP becomes less and less meaningful with electrics, for anything but bench racing and marketing. Considering the torque is relatively flat with most electric motors, the HP simply comes at a cost of battery by increasing RPM.

They're getting closer.......I'm rooting for these guys.

Agreed. I think it's a promising industry.  

[Giaka]

I'd argue that the major push shouldn't be for more power, but for longer running times and shorter charges - even if, in the urban setting, you actually end up losing some top-end speed.

Real world commuting, 20 hp and 45 ft lbs would be plenty along with a 100 mile range and two up capability at reasonable speeds (50 ish MPH) and ful rechanrge under 6 hours. They are almost there, this time next year things will be different.

[steve.m]

Interesting bike, but with 100 miles of range it wouldn't get me to work and back.  I'm waiting for batteries that can be fully recharged quickly, not in hours.  

in that case you're waiting for capacitors with longevity, not batteries with rapid recharging.

[Galo]

$14,000 for the 100 mile ranger.

So? Aren't there a few Hardleys that have roughly the same numbers?
 

[Mookie]

My Superduke fits that number range depending on how much I twist the fun stick.

I'd say this e-bike has some serious potential.  If the Fed gives tax credits that can get the price down to around $7500 and the batteries last decently then it could be a perfect commuter bike.

[JonS]

This type of bike is finally getting good looks to go with the technology. Geek appeal just doesn't work for most riders, including me. Once the technology makes the bikes practical for anything beyond commuting I would be interested. Competitive price too. It's only a matter of time. Each round, they get closer.

[scarecrow]

That is a vacuum cleaner gaining on you. I'm all for electric motorcycles. Ecological reason aside they are simpler and promise much greater reliability and ultimately can be much cheaper with good production numbers. I give electric bikes 5 more years before they start to trounce some popular gasoline crotch rockets.

[lizard]

These are getting closer to being a viable solution every quarter. I think battery technology is on the verge of exploding and making an ev bike my daily commuter.

[azharrison]

So, how can I remove the baffels on this thing to make it "safe" and LOUD!?!  

I think it would make a much better commuter bike right now than an ST machine... that is how they should be marketing it for now...

Noone is gonna dump their Gixxer for a BLAMMO based on performance...  but the commuter crowd may embrace this concept in droves!

My hats off to them!  It is a sexy looking bike!

[rino]

My ride was 101 miles yesterday....tryin to think what outlet is near the 1 mile mark from my house

Now don't get me wrong...I'm as hippie tree hugger as many out there but i'm curious how much the electricity to power the thing costs...I love salmon fishing and those damn dams are another contention.

I'd be all over an electric moped that could do 40mph for in town hops...

[azharrison]

Usually technology offers a step FORWARD,  because of the new global awareness we are taught to feel guilty for our gas powered toys!  But necessity is the mother of invention.  This motorcycle is at the point where it is a viable option at a reasonable price for many people.  BUT for most of us on this group, honestly, it doesn't suit the needs of our sport!  Limited to 100 miles per day on a cross country tour?  Unacceptable.  

It is cool that they made it look like a Ducati Monster, BUT I dont think they will get many cross consumers from that market.  

[scarecrow]

My ride was 101 ......... i'm curious how much the electricity to power the thing costs...

I don't know what the price of electricity is where you live but a general calculation shows it would cost about 1/2 cent per mile where I live. To put that in perspective my Kaw KLR650 cost about 4 cents per mile to operate. That's fuel cost and does not include wear and tear on tires and oil changes and such.

[chornbe]

So, how can I remove the baffels on this thing to make it "safe" and LOUD!?!  

I think it would make a much better commuter bike right now than an ST machine... that is how they should be marketing it for now...

Noone is gonna dump their Gixxer for a BLAMMO based on performance...  but the commuter crowd may embrace this concept in droves!

My hats off to them!  It is a sexy looking bike!

I don't think anyone in the EV or Bike world really expects a bike with 20-100 mile ranges to be anything BUT an urban commuter.  

[bomber]

These are getting closer to being a viable solution every quarter. I think battery technology is on the verge of exploding and making an ev bike my daily commuter.

I've got a very short commute, and this scoot would be ideal -- I'd be interested in seeing system-wide costs (electricity, pollution for the generation thereof, what's recycling the batteries gonna nick me in 5 years, et al) . . . .

Without trying to be a bummer, battery tech has been on the verge of exploding for years and years . . . tech doesn't generally make a great leap forward -- more often, it's slow evolution that, once it becomes affordable and usable, LOOKS like it changed overnight.

[steve.m]

to anyone who touts themself as a hippy tree hugger...food for thought.

the oil we burn is has a massive amount of energy density, it's the most efficient form of transportable energy we have.

batteries require mining lithium, a process that requires huge amounts of energy that exceeds the energy consuption of drilling rigs.  this mining (at the moment) is primarily taking place in central and south america, where it is strip mined from underneath what used to be rain forest.

batteries have hazardous chemicals that the earth can not convert to something else.  carbon can be absorbed by the planet naturally.  it's been here all along, it'll stay here, we're not creating anything new.

the energy consumption required to deliver a finished battery is greater than that used to produce gasoline (read larger carbon footprint)

so logically being a "tree hugger" is not that at all, as we're cutting them down to obtain the material to make batteries.  that justification simply isn't a viable reason for driving electric vehicles unless the technology improves the point that we no longer rely on relatively scarce minerals buried beneath rain forrests to to power our transportation.

just hoping to shed a bit of light on the problem we're facing.  we're not going cleaner or better, we're just trading one ecological disaster for another.  The solution isn't how to obtain energy from other sources, it's reducing the energy we already consume.

[chornbe]

MOAR NOOKS!

[steve.m]

that's not my point, i'm not against electric vehicles, but our current problems can't be solved by plugging in your car at night.  battery tech is coming along, and im all for it, but i'd rather see a supercapacitor get developed that uses less material, has the energy density of a battery and weighs less overall than push more and more for environmentally toxic batteries.

[bomber]

I can see the scene at the local 24 hour gas station -- a buncha young bloods, crowded around the new Nook car one of their buddies scored, figuring out how to remove more of those rod thingies for more power!

[chornbe]

that's not my point, i'm not against electric vehicles, but our current problems can't be solved by plugging in your car at night.  battery tech is coming along, and im all for it, but i'd rather see a supercapacitor get developed that uses less material, has the energy density of a battery and weighs less overall than push more and more for environmentally toxic batteries.

I honestly believe in more nuclear power plants.

[steve.m]

i'm with you on that one, but we can't even get windmills erected because if NIMBY issues, good luck with power plants.  Unless they're put on gubmint land, we're stuck.  call me crazy, but i'm not for gubmint supplied power.

[chornbe]

i'm with you on that one, but we can't even get windmills erected because if NIMBY issues, good luck with power plants.  Unless they're put on gubmint land, we're stuck.  call me crazy, but i'm not for gubmint supplied power.

It would go as smoothly as health care reform and tax refund processing. What could go wrong?

Privatize it. Steve Jobs and that whacky Mark Cuban guy could write checks to build plants out of petty cash, then sell it to the power companies.

Hmm...

[steve.m]

electric motorcycles!!!  w00t!

[kurtw]

This is the outfit that MrSmooth visited a while back. Looks like a cool company and the bikes are sure starting to look attractive from a certain point-of-view (not a point-of-view that would have be buying one yet, but still...)

Smooth's excellent-as-always report from the wayback machine:
http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,41617.0.html
(recognized the scenery in the video before I recognized the bike or brand   )

[lizard]

i'm with you on that one, but we can't even get windmills erected because if NIMBY issues, good luck with power plants.  Unless they're put on gubmint land, we're stuck.  call me crazy, but i'm not for gubmint supplied power.

2 new nukes have started construction in the Carolinas. One near Charlotte (Duke Energy?) & another near Columbia (SCE&G?). Both are owned by utilities & are expansion at existing nuke sites. Duke had the generator shipped to the site recently and the one near Columbia is just getting started with site prep.

[lizard]

I honestly believe in more nuclear power plants.

3 Mile ???  

[antvq]

3 Mile ???  

aberration here in the states.  Most nuke sights have security tighter than a gnats ass and a safety record that most large employers would envy.   I'd love to see more nukes.  I have two within a 50 mile radius of me.    Never an issue at either one of them since they started up many moons ago.  

Other that storing the spent waste (which the govt actually came up with a good plan for before it was shouted down by the greenies) there isn't much NOT to like about them.  They don't pollute the air or water.  Clean electric.

[Mookie]

Other that storing the spent waste (which the govt actually came up with a good plan for before it was shouted down by the greenies)

Uhh, they built their supposedly "permanent" nuclear waste storage facility on a known fault line.

[chornbe]

Uhh, they built their supposedly "permanent" nuclear waste storage facility on a known fault line.

Yeah, that's pretty silly, for sure.

There's plenty of space in which to store this stuff.

Hey, didn't a 300' wide sink hole just open up recently?    

[Giaka]

Yeah, that's pretty silly, for sure.

There's plenty of space in which to store this stuff.

Hey, didn't a 300' wide sink hole just open up recently?    

Package it up and send it to the sun. Build a ship that remains in orbit for a few years, attached waste pods to it then shove it off into space. Hey it would create jobs and advance space exploration.  

[steve.m]

look into the issues presented in launching nuclear material of any sort, let alone highly radioactive crap from power plants.  

subduction zones, bury it in the earth and let it stay there for a few thousand millenia.

[chornbe]

There's always Idaho.

[antvq]

Uhh, they built their supposedly "permanent" nuclear waste storage facility on a known fault line.

From the Oracle ThinkQuest site.....


While Yucca Mountain is near of a fault line, the fault is believed to be inactive. There are several volcanoes in the vicinity, but scientists believe that they have been dormant for almost a million years and think it unlikely that they will erupt in the next 10,000 years. Naturally, the people in Nevada are opposed to the creation of a nuclear waste repository. They express the common reaction, NIMBY (Not In My Backyard!!). This is because that although most evidence indicates that Yucca Mountain is a suitable place for storage, no one can guarantee that waste will not leak. However, quite a bit of research has already conducted around the Yucca site.

Sooooooooooo.....not so much problem with the fault line then right?

[scarecrow]

3 Mile ???  

Go back and revisit the incident. The news media, out their shear ignorance, got the story all wrong.

[hazra]

3 Mile ???  

Didn't that happen like a week or two after "The China Syndrome" came out?  I do believe that was the second incident in the US, and nothing of the type has happened since.  Newer reactors are safer, cleaner and more efficient than older ones, but perception in the US has been spoiled by the event.  The PR disaster was far more devastating than the event itself was.  The biggest issue in the US that I see is disposition of the spent fuel, but again perception is a far larger problem than the actual logistics and safety of storage.

[Rincewind]

Finally! - nearly two years after this thread started - Brammo has announced they will debut this bike in LA on May 8th.  

We are proud to announce that we will be revealing the production version of the much anticipated Brammo Empulse on May 8th, 2012. The launch event will take place in Los Angeles and will be webcast live to all pre-order customers. Since the Empulse concept was first revealed, a vast amount of development and testing has taken place and we are confident that you will be delighted with the ground-breaking electric motorcycle we are about to reveal. On April 18th we will announce full specifications of this exciting milestone in the evolution of motorcycling, giving you every opportunity to become familiar with the Empulse before seeing it for the first time on May 8th.”

I still want one!  But I'm glad I haven't been chaffing on the waiting list for nearly two years!  

[chilipeppernorm]

to anyone who touts themself as a hippy tree hugger...food for thought.

the oil we burn is has a massive amount of energy density, it's the most efficient form of transportable energy we have.

batteries require mining lithium, a process that requires huge amounts of energy that exceeds the energy consuption of drilling rigs.  this mining (at the moment) is primarily taking place in central and south america, where it is strip mined from underneath what used to be rain forest.

batteries have hazardous chemicals that the earth can not convert to something else.  carbon can be absorbed by the planet naturally.  it's been here all along, it'll stay here, we're not creating anything new.

the energy consumption required to deliver a finished battery is greater than that used to produce gasoline (read larger carbon footprint)

so logically being a "tree hugger" is not that at all, as we're cutting them down to obtain the material to make batteries.  that justification simply isn't a viable reason for driving electric vehicles unless the technology improves the point that we no longer rely on relatively scarce minerals buried beneath rain forrests to to power our transportation.

just hoping to shed a bit of light on the problem we're facing.  we're not going cleaner or better, we're just trading one ecological disaster for another.  The solution isn't how to obtain energy from other sources, it's reducing the energy we already consume.

Thank you Steve! In addition to your points we also have to consider that the generation of the electricity to charge the battery still comes from a fossil fuel power plant most likely. Additional points:

1) Electric cars or bikes barely have the legs to get you out of town, much less to the next county, or across the state or country.

2) Should you have a month or so to take a modest road trip, who's going to let you plug your bike or car in to charge the battery at their expense. My GSA gets 350 miles on a single tank with a heavy throttle hand. You'd have to stop and recharge 4 or more times for that range.

3) Electric vehicles have NO SOUL. Who doesn't thrill to the sound of the lumpy idle of a big block Chevy, Ford, or Mopar engine, or the song of a Ducati, Aprilia V4, or Triumph Triple at full throttle?

4) Imagine going to an AMA Superbike or MotoGP race with electric racers. You look up from reading your Golf Digest which you brought to add some excitement, and here they twaddle by. The bikes and riders leathers are all adorned with new sponsorship decals and patches; Amy's Silken Tofu Burgers, Birkenstock Racing Sandals, Ridex Dreadlock Delousing Treatment, while the riders proudly tuck in with their Man Purses trailing in the modest breeze. You wander down to the pits and paddock with the smell of ozone and patchouli oil in the air. The umbrella and booth girls are dressed to kill in sleeveless knee length billowing tie-die moo moo's sporting enough hair in each armpit to look like they have Don King in a headlock on both sides, and calves like a Sasquatch. Mechanics in the pits are wielding battery chargers on carts and repairing broken Man Purse straps. Welcome to the Save the Earth, Sustainable, Eco Friendly 18 Mile at Infineon Raceway.

[GTS_Rider]

Finally! - nearly two years after this thread started - Brammo has announced they will debut this bike in LA on May 8th...

WTF? Need more info!  Where in LA???

Not really interested in an electric bike yet, but the Brammo Girls @ the LA progressive moto-show were even hotter and more skimpily clad than these Brammo Girls @ Laguna....    

[Papa Lazarou]

Thank you Steve! In addition to your points we also have to consider that the generation of the electricity to charge the battery still comes from a fossil fuel power plant most likely. Additional points:

1) Electric cars or bikes barely have the legs to get you out of town, much less to the next county, or across the state or country.

2) Should you have a month or so to take a modest road trip, who's going to let you plug your bike or car in to charge the battery at their expense. My GSA gets 350 miles on a single tank with a heavy throttle hand. You'd have to stop and recharge 4 or more times for that range.

Personally, I think they should just have a very long mains lead, which could be plugged into any electric socket at home.

[coho]

Personally, I think they should just have a very long mains lead bigass extension cord, which could be plugged into any electric socket at home.

Translated to 'murrican.  

[Rincewind]

WTF? Need more info!  Where in LA???

Not really interested in an electric bike yet, but the Brammo Girls @ the LA progressive moto-show were even hotter and more skimpily clad than these Brammo Girls @ Laguna....   

Sorry I don't have further info.  The details are to be released on April 18. 

I love the Brammo girls, too.     If they had to delay the Empulse because of the Brammo girls' salaries, that's ok then.  

http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/Other/Girls-at-EICMA/

Good points regarding battery production - that is the thorn in the side of E-vehicles today.  

[protomech]

The Empulse is looking pretty good. Brammo should be releasing final specs next week, and showing off the final product in a month.. good times indeed.


Here's a response to steve.m, and chilipeppernorm .. you guys have some good points, but here are my thoughts as a rider and an EV enthusiast.

to anyone who touts themself as a hippy tree hugger...food for thought.

the oil we burn is has a massive amount of energy density, it's the most efficient form of transportable energy we have.

Yep. Oil's going nowhere for a long time, it has fantastic energy density, we have a very mature oil distribution infrastructure, and we're very well accustomed to it. As long as charge rates are slow and range is low, EV adoption will remain supplemental at best. Widespread distribution of fast charging stations and improvements in battery capacity and charge speeds will help here.  Still, they work well for short trips and commuting for some people - not everyone of course.

batteries require mining lithium, a process that requires huge amounts of energy that exceeds the energy consuption of drilling rigs.  this mining (at the moment) is primarily taking place in central and south america, where it is strip mined from underneath what used to be rain forest.

batteries have hazardous chemicals that the earth can not convert to something else.  carbon can be absorbed by the planet naturally.  it's been here all along, it'll stay here, we're not creating anything new.

Argonne National Laboratories (DOE research lab) has some of the best reports on material and environmental impacts of various battery technologies.
"Costs of Lithium-Ion Batteries for Vehicles", ANL 2000, http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/149.pdf

Lithium batteries don't use metallic lithium, they use lithium carbonate (Li2CO3). As I understand it, these are produced from brines rather than mining lithium metal ores .. but I'm not sure how much environmental damage is caused in the production of the battery materials.

The 7.9 kWh pack in my Zero electric bike has about 2.5 kg of lithium carbonate in it. It can be disposed of in the landfill or recycled at end of life. The lithium salts inside are non-toxic.

The planet can indeed absorb some amount of atmospheric carbon. The problem is that we've taken 100 million years of stored carbon and released it into the atmosphere in the last 100 years. The scientific debate is how much impact that will have for our children, not whether it will have an impact.

the energy consumption required to deliver a finished battery is greater than that used to produce gasoline (read larger carbon footprint)

If you're honestly interested in this sort of thing (er, 2 years later ; ) I would suggest leafing through this report on the energy costs of manufacturing lithium batteries.
"A Review of Battery Life-Cycle Analysis: State of Knowledge and Critical Needs", ANL 2010, http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/B/644.pdf

The "cradle-to-gate" energy inputs for lithium batteries are 1.6 MJ/Wh, or approximately 450 times the energy capacity of the batteries. I plan on putting about 1500 cycles on my bike in its lifetime (figuring 100k miles over 10 years), so we're looking at roughly 2000 times the energy capacity of the batteries all told. (7.9 kWh = 16 MWh total lifetime energy).

100k miles on a similar gas bike (Ninja 250) would use about 2000 gallons of gas. Not counting the actual gas itself, a gallon of gas consumes about 6 kWh of energy to refine (again, per ANL). 12 MWh of energy in a similar lifetime just for the energy used to refine the gas consumed .. not counting the gas itself, or the energy used to produce the bike.
http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline

so logically being a "tree hugger" is not that at all, as we're cutting them down to obtain the material to make batteries.  that justification simply isn't a viable reason for driving electric vehicles unless the technology improves the point that we no longer rely on relatively scarce minerals buried beneath rain forrests to to power our transportation.

just hoping to shed a bit of light on the problem we're facing.  we're not going cleaner or better, we're just trading one ecological disaster for another.  The solution isn't how to obtain energy from other sources, it's reducing the energy we already consume.

Both reducing energy consumption and using the right type of energy for the job have their role. For example, it makes more sense to heat with natural gas than electric heaters (burning a fuel for heat is more efficient than burning a fuel for heat into steam into a generator into transmission lines into a resistance heater) - and for that same reason, in colder states combustion vehicles make more sense vs EVs than in warmer states.

"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" absolutely applies to battery EVs .. but some lunches cost a lot more than others. Even in a coal-heavy state, the Zero emits about as much CO2 as a 100 mpg bike .. and other emission types (at the power plant) are radically lower. And it will get even cleaner as it ages and the grid slowly becomes cleaner, vs a gas bike whose catalytic converters (if any are even installed!) break down over the lifetime of the bike.

Thank you Steve! In addition to your points we also have to consider that the generation of the electricity to charge the battery still comes from a fossil fuel power plant most likely. Additional points:

1) Electric cars or bikes barely have the legs to get you out of town, much less to the next county, or across the state or country.

That's true - but it misses the point a bit. The last month I rode 1000 miles on my electric bike (all of my commuting and short trips, 30-70 miles per day), 400 miles on the gas bike (200 mile trip to visit friends), and drove about 80 miles in my gas car (groceries and hauling cargo).

For me the electric bike's range (65-75 miles at 45-55 mph type speeds) is enough for the majority of my riding, and so it makes sense.

2) Should you have a month or so to take a modest road trip, who's going to let you plug your bike or car in to charge the battery at their expense. My GSA gets 350 miles on a single tank with a heavy throttle hand. You'd have to stop and recharge 4 or more times for that range.

Electric bikes aren't presently well suited for long road trips. Using an electric bike today for touring makes about as much sense as using a big SUV for single person commuting : P Use the right tool for the job.

The largest battery for Tesla's Model S (releasing very soon) has ~250 miles of freeway range and can charge ~120 freeway miles in 30 minutes. We're 5+ years away from being able to do the same on an electric touring bike.. but here's what a day on an electric touring bike might look like.

0600-0900 200 miles
0900-0930 stop and charge for 30 minutes
0930-1130 120 miles
1130-1230 lunch, stop and charge for an hour
1230-1530 200 miles
1530-1600 stop and charge for 30 minutes
1600-1800 120 miles
1800-1900 dinner, stop and charge for an hour
1900-2200 200 miles

800+ miles in a day won't win any Iron Butt rallies, but I need to stop every couple hours on my gas bike anyhow.

We're a long ways off from the infrastructure to do this - we need 30 kWh battery packs, fairings, and widespread 48 kW charging stations. And even assuming batteries continue to drop in price, an electric touring bike (250 freeway miles, 120 mile charge in 30 minutes) in 2017-2020 might cost $20-25k .. so not cheap.

3) Electric vehicles have NO SOUL. Who doesn't thrill to the sound of the lumpy idle of a big block Chevy, Ford, or Mopar engine, or the song of a Ducati, Aprilia V4, or Triumph Triple at full throttle?

EVs are quiet, not silent. Believe me, there's an advantage to being able to blast down the road without advertising your presence to every cop nearby .. or to sneaking out of the house at 5 am. I run with a friend at 5 am a couple times per week, and it's nice to not have neighbors complaining about being woken up while my carb'ed bike warms up for a few minutes outside..

EVs have a different visceral feel than combustion engines. You can call that "SOUL" if you like. To me, the way they accelerate feels like you're on an express elevator .. a sort of effortless shove forward. Riding an electric bike doesn't diminish my appreciation for my gas bike or vice versa.

4) Imagine going to an AMA Superbike or MotoGP race with electric racers. You look up from reading your Golf Digest which you brought to add some excitement, and here they twaddle by. The bikes and riders leathers are all adorned with new sponsorship decals and patches; Amy's Silken Tofu Burgers, Birkenstock Racing Sandals, Ridex Dreadlock Delousing Treatment, while the riders proudly tuck in with their Man Purses trailing in the modest breeze. You wander down to the pits and paddock with the smell of ozone and patchouli oil in the air. The umbrella and booth girls are dressed to kill in sleeveless knee length billowing tie-die moo moo's sporting enough hair in each armpit to look like they have Don King in a headlock on both sides, and calves like a Sasquatch. Mechanics in the pits are wielding battery chargers on carts and repairing broken Man Purse straps. Welcome to the Save the Earth, Sustainable, Eco Friendly 18 Mile at Infineon Raceway.

Well, maybe

[chilipeppernorm]

Very thoughtful reply Protomech. You rightfully state that for short haul, around town, city, or urban purposes an electric bike makes sense to those so inclined. However, the current push for EV's is coming from political/governmental/environmental entities with an agenda as opposed to market driven forces giving due regard to the existing needs of the public. Currently the available alternative energy sources of wind/solar/battery are best utilized in rural or off the grid settings, or in the boonies if you will. There, wind, solar, battery energy backed by a reliable diesel generator are the only way to go from a housing standpoint.

As for bikes, I'm curious if the total cost to power an electric bike is any cheaper that zipping around on a Vespa? As for Sport Touring or Adventure biking I don't see battery powered bikes supplanting the freedom, speed, and flexibility of our gas powered bikes in my lifetime (I'm almost 60, so that's a relative claim). If the electric bike makers continue to market their future product in the paddock with hot women then I'm all for that. However, if the Eco-environmentalists take over the marketing then I stand by point #4 in my original post.

[protomech]

Very thoughtful reply Protomech. You rightfully state that for short haul, around town, city, or urban purposes an electric bike makes sense to those so inclined. However, the current push for EV's is coming from political/governmental/environmental entities with an agenda as opposed to market driven forces giving due regard to the existing needs of the public. Currently the available alternative energy sources of wind/solar/battery are best utilized in rural or off the grid settings, or in the boonies if you will. There, wind, solar, battery energy backed by a reliable diesel generator are the only way to go from a housing standpoint.

Yeah. I would rather see the government maintain a more neutral stance on the technology .. but I'd also like to see them stop subsidies going out to the oil companies, and I'd like to see them roll "defense" costs related to foreign policy posturing for access to oil resources into a oil tax. I would love to see us develop technology that allows us to largely supplant oil for transportation, and for us to stop sending money to countries that hate the US. We import about 30% of our oil from south american and middle east countries that could be reasonably asserted to not have our best interests in mind.

Right now the "market driven forces" are failing because the external costs of oil aren't paid for when you buy gasoline or use other oil products. Raise your hand if you think we would be in Iraq now or dicking around in the Middle East in general if we weren't trying to assure our access to oil.

I'd like to see the Middle East lose the relatively recent international importance they've picked up because of the resources they sit on. I'm content to let them choose whether or not they want to be backwater nations free from interference by us.

As for bikes, I'm curious if the total cost to power an electric bike is any cheaper that zipping around on a Vespa?

"Fuel" for the Zero is about a penny per mile. The bike has pulled 127.8 kWh from the wall in the last 30 days, electricity prices here are $0.085/kWh = $10.86 to go 1024.6 miles.

My GS500 gets about 50 mpg, at $3.80/gallon currently that's about 7.6 cents per mile.

Of course, that's not the full story for either bike - depreciation on the Zero will be huge (12 cents/mile at 100k miles), GS500 will take some depreciation and maintenance (3 cents depreciation and 4 cents maintenance, I figure). The Zero should require almost zero maintenance.

Excluding wear items like tires, the Zero will be about 13 cents per mile and the GS500 should be 14-15 cents per mile assuming I rode them both to 100k miles.

If gas drops in price again, then the GS500 may be a bit cheaper to run. Of course, the only real cost to the Zero is its depreciation.. once a viable used market is available for the electric bikes, provided the batteries hold up

As for Sport Touring or Adventure biking I don't see battery powered bikes supplanting the freedom, speed, and flexibility of our gas powered bikes in my lifetime (I'm almost 60, so that's a relative claim). If the electric bike makers continue to market their future product in the paddock with hot women then I'm all for that. However, if the Eco-environmentalists take over the marketing then I stand by point #4 in my original post.

I don't think gas bikes will go away either, at least in my lifetime .. or that we'll run out of oil. The stuff is just too good for long-haul travel. I do believe we've run out of easy oil - $4/gallon gas is the new norm, and I believe it will only head up from here.

[county]

$14,000 for the 100 mile ranger.

That's quite a bit...

...but I still want one.

I think the government will give you some of that back....

[Kraz]

I think the government will give you some of that back....

Good point - anyone know how and how much?

I use the standard married deduction - two kids (don't itemize).  Does it matter when it comes to getting tax credits or whatever?  Just curious...

[DogBoy]

Good point - anyone know how and how much?

I use the standard married deduction - two kids (don't itemize).  Does it matter when it comes to getting tax credits or whatever?  Just curious...

I think the Federal Tax Credit is 10% and CA has a $1500 credit, IIRC. Other states have similar incentives. These are tax credits so you apply them at the end of the year. You'd still have to pay $$s up front for the bike and sales tax, title and license on the retail price, I'm guessing.

That was two years ago so it may have changed. I believe Colorado has the most generous credit for electric vehicles of all the states.

[protomech]

Good point - anyone know how and how much?

I use the standard married deduction - two kids (don't itemize).  Does it matter when it comes to getting tax credits or whatever?  Just curious...

Until Dec 31 2011 the federal government offered a 10% rebate (in the form of a tax credit) for electric motorcycles and scooters. That credit has since expired, which leaves us in the curious situation where a 5 kWh Prius plug-in has significant incentives ($2500) but an Empulse or Zero S with almost twice the battery capacity does not.

State governments have varying incentives. Alabama does not, I bought my bike straight up.

[Rincewind]

More details revealed @ http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/04/brammo-tells-us-more-about-empulse-e-bike/

There won't be different battery sizes available - they will only offer the largest 10kw capacity version.  The 6-speed gearbox is staying as part of the design.  Price is to be around $14k - very steep!  I expect the R model to be even more.  

[Rincewind]

Spy shots of the production Empulse model show a slightly modified design from the original.

http://www.automedia.com/Blog/post/Breaking-News-Production-Brammo-Empulse-R-Electric-Motorcycle-Spied!.aspx

[DogBoy]

Whats going on with the tail in the bottom pic?

[Rincewind]

I fixed the link to the article.  It said it was part of a video shoot, so I'd guess that's video camera rigging and not an official accessory.  

[Mookie]

It's for attaching the windmill....

[DogBoy]

I thought it was a rig to connect to overhead power lines.  

[hazra]

It does kind of look like a trolley pole.  Maybe it's an optional overhead line range extender?  Charge your batteries on the go?

[Mookie]

I was kind of excited about this bike but the more I look at it the less I like it.  Looks too much like a teapot.  

[Rincewind]

$20k for the R model!    I guess they gotta pay the Brammo girls somehow...  

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/brammo-empulse-r-price/

A Bothan spy just dropped off a note in the A&R inbox saying that the soon-to-be-released and recently-spotted Brammo Empulse R is to come with quite the price tag. Said to be priced just shy of $20,000, the R-spec Empulse would be commanding a $6,000 premium over the $14,000 MSRP that was quoted when the Brammo Empulse first hit the newswires 22 months ago. Considering the $13,995 price tag offered by the Zero S ZF9, the $20,000 figure being bantered about sounds very high to our ears, at least initially.

[protomech]

Hell For Leather reviews the production Empulse R.

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2012/08/brammo-empulse-the-electric-motorcycle-has-finally-arrived/

[DogBoy]

Thanks for the link to the review.

Here's the "making of" film for the commercial referenced above. Nothing much happens for the first few minutes. It gets better at about 5:55 when a friend of mine is riding.  

[Rincewind]

Cute friend, dogboy!  

I will read the article later, thanks.  Now that HFL is no longer subscription, I can wait to read it.

[DogBoy]

Cute friend, dogboy!  

I will read the article later, thanks.  Now that HFL is no longer subscription, I can wait to read it.

I'm old enough to be her dad so no creepy intent. She's a hell of a rider.

[DogBoy]

I applaud Brammo for putting their bike on the track against IC engine sportbikes and really racing.   The AFM is a NorCal club which has produced several talented riders.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/03/05/electric-motorcycles-eligible-for-sportbike-classes-in-afm-roadracing/

In an unprecedented move, the American Federation of Motorcyclists (AFM) is allowing electric motorcycles to compete head-to-head on track with conventional internal-combustion-powered machinery.

According to AFM President Berto Wooldridge, Oregon-based Brammo was looking for a way to showcase its new Empulse sportbike. “They wanted to compete within the existing class structure against gas-powered bikes with similar power-to-weight ratios and performance,” he said. “We believe this is a historic moment in motorcycle racing, and we are happy to have made it possible.”

[Max Wedge]

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